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Patka, Keski Dastar Or None?


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#11 singhni84

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 03:14 PM

To answer your question Bhain Jee "proud_to_be_singhni":

"what??!!! ji i dont get that....that means you can wear keski and what do kes di beadbi??"

Bhain Jee, keeping kes uncut is already covered as a bujjar kurehit. Any Sikh who cuts or otherwise does beadbi of kes is no longer a Sikh. It is already a given that a Sikh must keep hair uncut.

What I was saying was that puraatan sources refer to the fifth kakaar as Keski rather than Kes for the above reason (not to get into the Kes/Keski debate, but to point out that according to Rehit, a keski/dastaar is required of both Singhs and Singhnees -- for the Khalsa collectively).

#12 proud_to_be_singhni

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 10:10 PM

kooooool! :TH:

you nearly had moi worried there sis! :@ @
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#13 Akaal Purakh Di Fauj

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 01:30 AM

sorry sarbloh geeza
eevath marai marai fun jeevai aisae su(n)n samaaeiaa ||
One who remains dead while yet alive, will live even after death; thus he merges into the Primal Void of the Absolute Lord.

a(n)jan maahi nira(n)jan reheeai bahurr n bhavajal paaeiaa ||1||
Remaining pure in the midst of impurity, he will never again fall into the terrifying world-ocean. ||1|

#14 _A Singh._

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 03:50 AM

there are many purataan sources which mention that kes is the kakkar guru sahib blessed us with


Veer Ji from the viewpoint of the veracity and authenticity of old Sikh sources alone, could you elaborate on this point please? If you didn't want to mention it here perhaps you could start a new thread.

#15 mahamoorakh

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 03:52 AM

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh

singhni84 thank you for your reply. I think the essential difference between our 2 viewpoints is the equality issue, as this determines our thoughts as to why a Singh may dress differently to a Singhnee, why I think it is justifiable for rehat to vary between men and women. Personally, I do not believe it is practical to have equality in every aspect of our lives, between men and women. Parents cannot treat all their children identically yet this does not mean that they do not love them all. An elder I know always gives me this example: we have four fingers on our hand. All of them are a different shape or length, etc, yet they have equal importance to us because if one was taken away we would not be able to function as efficiently. Similarly, Guru Sahib has many children. He does not necessarily have to treat them the same to ensure that they feel loved by Him. Guru Sahib says:

ieik syvk gur pwis ieik guir kwrY lweIAw ]

eik saevak gur paas eik gur kaarai laaeeaa ||
The Guru keeps some of His sevaks with Himself, and engages others in His Service.

We all operate under the command of our Guru. We are on this world and contribute to the Panth in different ways. I know that some people have come into Sikhi by seeing the baana and thinking wow, that is so chardi kalla. No doubt baana is a key element in Sikhi, yet it is only one of the many elements of Sikhi. What I am trying to say, is that we should not discredit the other gunn or values an individual possesses if they donít hold one of these elements. They have kirpa from Guru Sahib in another form, which may be of equal if not greater value in the eyes of Vaheguru. Only Guru Sahib can know. Some people come into Sikhi after listening to katha, keertan, paath or engaging in seva, and so they will predominantly carry out these practices in Sikhi, as opposed to wearing the baana perhaps.

One may argue that it would be best to employ all these elements of Sikhi in order to achieve the highest avasthaa. However, Guru Sahib requires different input into the panth from different individuals. Each and every one of us in this world has a unique and personal relationship with Guru Jee and with Vaheguru. The same baani read at the same time will not have the same effect on me as it will have on someone else. The same ras or anand of Sikhi can be obtained in different ways by different individuals. But nobody can explain this ras or claim to experience greater ras from any certain practice, it is indescribable:

ijin ieh cwKI soeI jwxY gUMgy kI imiTAweI ]
jin eih chaakhee soee jaanai goo(n)gae kee mit(h)iaaee ||
Only one who tastes it knows it, like the mute, who tastes the sweet candy, but cannot speak of it.

All mahaan Gursikhs of the past have reached the highest states of mind, namely Baba Nand Singh, Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh, Baba Attar Singh, Baba Isher Singh, Baba Gurbachan Singh, Baba Jarnail Singh, and we can learn from each of their jeevans. However they did not all employ exactly the same means to achieve this state of mind. It is not that we can only reach Parmatma if we employ all the qualities of Guru Sahib. We must do kamayee to the fullest, as much as we can to make us Ďleení in Vaheguruís jot - we can never wholly be the jot of Vaheguru in our living form.

Regarding the issue that by wearing a dastaar one represents the Khalsa roop, if we could represent the Khalsa with appearance alone then the whole world could obtain SachKhand. But Sikhi is much more than this. We must look for the Khalsa within everyone which is that jot of Vaheguru that resides in all.

sB mih joiq joiq hY soie ]
sabh mehi joth joth hai soe ||
The Divine Light is within everyone; You are that Light.

iqs kY cwnix sB mih cwnxu hoie ]
this kai chaanan sabh mehi chaanan hoe ||
Yours is that Light which shines within everyone.

It is the inner rehat alongside the outer rehat as I tried to emphasise before. I am by no means trying to discredit the dastaar on a bibi or Guru Sahibís baana, but am saying lets not just look at outer rehat but understand and appreciate the inner spirituality as well, as this is fundamentally more important.

To make statements such as

there's no way to justify a claim that a bibi can be a Sikh, a Khalsa, without a dastaar

is highly offensive. Many amritdhari bibian in the panth do not wear a dastaar. In my humble opinion it is not right to claim exclusivity on what the Gurmat path is. We are all hear to learn, this is just Guru Sahibís big game, no one knows how to reach Him, but we can achieve greater understanding by reading Guru Sahibaan di Bani. Every day we read in our nitnem, in the TavPrasad Svaaiye:

Koor Kiriya Urjheo Sabh Hee Jag Siri Bhagvaan Ko Bhed Na Paayo.
The whole world is engaged in false acts, The Supreme Lordís mystery is known to none.

We all think that we are right, yet only Guru Sahib knows the true path. We can only pray before Guru Sahib in utmost humility that they may guide us as to what this true Gurmat maarag is.

I think that the contrasting views on this issue have been discussed at length and like singhni84 rightly said, lets not turn this into a debate. So please accept my final post expressing my opinions, and pray that Guru Sahib may bless me with sojhee as to what is right in Their eyes.

eyku ipqw eyks ky hm bwirk qU myrw gur hweI ]
eaek pithaa eaekas kae ham baarik thoo maeraa gur haaee ||
The One God is our father; we are the children of the One God. You are our Guru.

Lets respect all of humanity as our brothers and sisters, not just Sikhs, not just Amritdharees and certainly not just individuals with identical rehat to ourselves.

I hope I have not offended anyone for that was not my intention. http://www.sikhsanga...tyle_emoticons/default/pray.gif

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh

#16 singhni84

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 09:48 AM

No one was saying that outer appearance ALONE is the be-all and end-all. But remember, a Sikh is nothing without Rehit and there can be no double-standards in that. The Rehit of a Sikh includes discipline in terms of outer appearance. Singhs and Singhnees are both Sikhs, and both are the Khalsa. Why would the Guru discriminate? Why would he have different expectations of Singhs and Singhnees? If there is one Khalsa, and if Singhnees too are part of that single Khalsa, then they must keep the same Rehit and same appearance of the Khalsa.

#17 jagjit_waheguru

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 03:11 AM

waheguru ji kekhalsa waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, I am trying to avoid getting to much into repetitive debates.

But in this case I would say. If we all look sincerely at Bhai Nand lal ji rehitnamas. Then the only way you can fulfil each rehitnama is by wearing a keski/dastaar. There is no other option, i.e. chunni, patka, etc. Please feel free to go through them carefully and you will see what I mean.

I do not think bibian who chunnis or patka are wrong or bad or anthing. Often these things are just never pointed out to them.

I would love to see a day when every amritdhari bibian adorns a dastaar. Then you will have a lot more role models for young bibians, and you will alot less problems of punjabi girls going away from sikhi.

waheguru ji kekhalsa waheguru ji ke fateh
One God: Waheguru
One Guru : Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib Ji.
One Group : Guru Khalsa Panth!

This should be the Motto of Our Generation

#18 tarunjeet singh

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 07:51 AM

Dastaar for Women

Dastaar (turban) is a very important part of Sikh religion. To Sikhs it is more than what is a crown to a king or queen. Sikh Gurus showed a great respect to turban. But some people think it is only for men and women are not required to wear it. This article will explain why Sikh women should wear Dastaar (turban).

First I will quote from Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Ji says "Saabat Soorat Dastaar Sira" means "Let your total awareness be the turban on your head" (Page 1084). This clearly states that a Sikh is instructed to live a natural life and have unshorn hair and to protect and keep those hair clean he/she must wear a Dastaar on his/her head. This line does not make an exception to women. Sikh Gurus gave women the equal rights. Both men and women are given the same message which means the above line implies to both not only to men. If we are Sikhs of Guru Granth Sahib Ji then we must wear Dastaar doesn't matter if you are male or female.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Rehtname make very clear points about women wearing Dastaar. Guru Gobind Singh Ji said "Jab Lab Khalsa Rahe Niara, Tab Lag Tej Diyoon Mein Saara" which means "As long as Khalsa preserves its uniqueness and follows the path of true Guru I will bless them with all of my powers." This clearly shows that Khalsa must have its uniqueness which means to have that uniqueness one must have a Dastaar on his/her head. Furthermore, when Bhai Jait Mal Ji presented the head of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji to Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Guru Ji said "I will give my Sikh a distinct and unique appearance which will allow him to be recognized while standing in millions". This uniqueness comes from following the path of Sikhi which is to have unshorn hair and wearing Dastaar on the head. One can easily recognize a Sikh by looking at his appearance and most of that does come from Dastaar. Guru Ji did not say that he would give uniqueness only to men. When Guru Ji said "Khalsa" he meant men and women both. Men and women both are Khalsa. Guru Ji gave the same Rehat Maryada, same uniqueness, same message, same symbols, same religious Bana (dress) and same rights then how are women excluded from wearing Dastaar. Guru Ji made no distinction and referred to men and women as Khalsa and instructed them to wear Dastaar. In above line the word "Niara" clearly means different from others and it does mean wearing Dastaar. It doesn't say only men have to be "Niara".

Furthermore, Guru Gobind Singh Ji said "Khalsa Mero Roop Hai Khaas" which means "Khalsa is my own self image." Again, Khalsa means men and women both. Guru Ji did not make two different Sikhs or Khalsa. He made one Sikh and there can only be one type or kind of Sikh. There is only one Khalsa. Women make different hair styles, color their hair, and tie them in the back which is prohibited. Those women are nowhere near Guru Gobind Singh Ji's image. Guru Ji always wore Dastaar. Not only Guru Gobind Singh Ji but all of the other nine Gurus practiced wearing Dastaar. So how are women who dye their hair "Roop" (image) of Guru Gobind Singh Ji? They are not. Guru Ji had one image not two. Guru Ji had unshorn hair and wore Dastaar. Women without Dastaar do not even come close to that image. When those women look in the mirror, do they see Guru Gobind Singh Ji? I don't think so. Dastaar is a sign of dignity. Men still have their dignity but where is women's dignity? They have lost it in fashion. Not many Sikh women wear Dastaar but their numbers are growing. Even white Sikhs men and women wear Dastaar. Women must wear turban as instructed by Guru Ji himself because that's what makes them unique and an image of Guru Ji.

Right up to the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, Sikh women had been steadfast in following the edicts of the Satguru in respect to their spiritual inner life as well as dress, including Dastaar. That is what J. D. Cunningham himself saw and wrote in the middle of the Nineteenth Century when he wrote his book, History of the Sikhs. He writes: "The Sikh women are distinguished from Hindus of their sex by some variety of dress but chiefly by a higher top knot of hair." Even after the Punjab came under the British rule, Dastaar was conspicuously seen in case of Sikh women as well as men right up to the Gurudwara movement and the establishment of the Shiromani Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee in 1926. Until then, no one - man as well as woman was allowed to be baptized (by taking Amrit) at Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib without Dastaar. At the end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the present one, as a result of the Sikh renaissance movement, a number of Khalsa schools for girls were established in Punjab. Small Dastaar was prescribed as an obligatory head dress for students as well as teachers in such schools at Jaspalon, Ferozepur and Sidhwan in Punjab.

Many famous Rehatname also support wearing of Dastaar. Here are some quotes:

"Each candidate for Baptism be made to wear kachhehra, tie hair in a topknot and cover the same with Dastaar; wear Sri Sahib (Kirpan) in Gaatra (shoulder belt). Then he/she should stand with folded hands." (Rahitnama Bhai Daya Singh Ji)

"...Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa should keep his hair unshorn, have flowing beard and have simple Dastaar which saves him from impiety. Then the Sikhs asked what would happen to those Amritdhari who start cutting their hair or do not keep their hair covered. The Guru replied that they would be stupid and will lose their sensibility It is a blemish to remain bareheaded...Always keep two turbans. When the bigger turban is removed, the smaller be kept. The smaller turban should not be removed."(Bijai Mukat Dharam Shastra - Sakhi-8)

"(A Sikh) who eats food with turban removed from the head (i.e., bareheaded) is destined for 'Kumbhi' hell." (Rahit Rama Bhai Prahlad Singh Ji)

"One who combs hair twice a day, ties turban fold by fold and cleans teeth everyday will not come to grief." (Tankhah Naama Bhai Nandlal Ji)

"Whosoever roams about bareheaded, takes food bareheaded and distributes the 'prasad' bareheaded is considered punishable." (Uttar-prashan Bhai Nandlal Ji)


"Women should tie their hair in topknot and should not keep them loose." (Rahitnama Bhai Daya Singh Ji)

"Keshas be washed. Turban or Dastaar should not be placed on floor but should always be kept with due respect. Food should not be eaten bareheaded." (Bijai Mukt Dharam Shastra, Sakhi 70)
It is thus, absolutely clear from the above quotations that remaining bareheaded at any time (except when washing, drying, and combing) and keeping hair loose and unknotted are basically against the Sikh Code of Conduct, which is applicable to all, men and women alike. For obvious reasons, therefore, the use of Dastaar is indispensable. There is no other way to keep the head covered all the time. Sikhs women who wear only dupattas, mostly remain bareheaded, at least in the privacy of their own homes, while taking food, etc., and thus are, perhaps unconsciously, infringing the Sikh Code of Conduct in this respect.

A FEW HISTORICAL AND OTHER FACTS IN THIS RESPECT:


1. Well-known Sikh historian Bhai Sahib Bhai Santokh Singh has given a somewhat detailed description concerning Mai Bhaag Kaur (commonly known as Mai Bhago) of Forty Muktas fame in his well known historical work GUR PARTAP SOORAJ. He mentions that Mai Bhaag Kaur had reached the highest stage of enlightenment and had almost lost her body consciousness...so much so that when her clothes became worn to shreds, she did not care to replace them. Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji called her in His Holy presence and instructed her to always stick to the Gursikh dress as prescribed in the Code of Conduct. In particular, she was ordered to wear Kachhehra and Dastaar. In fact, according to some chroniclers, the Dastaar was tied on her head by the Satguru himself. If this Dastaar was not a part of Sikhi, where was the need to include this item in the instructions given to a lady who had reached almost the Brahmgyan stage? It apparently shows that the Satguru gave very high importance to Dastaar.



2. In the Museum of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's fort at Lahore and Victoria Museum at Calcutta, the pictures of Sikh women of old time can be seen even now, depicting them with Dastaar.



3. Bhai Sahib Veer Singh, in his well known poetical work, RANA SURAT SINGH, depicts Rani Raj Kaur as a Saint Soldier or Rajyogi of the highest order. Her very impressive picture given in the book depicts her with a well-tied Dastaar, on which is also affixed a khanda-chakkar, the emblem of Sikhism. In another of his book "Mata Satwant Kaur" Satwant Kaur is shown as wearing Khalsa dress including Dastaar.



4. The Sikh women belonging to the Jatha of Bhai Sahib (Sant) Teja Singh Ji of Mastuana, have been seen doing Kirtan in congregations wearing Dastaar. He was instrumental in establishing Akaal Academy - a Higher Secondary School at Baru in Himachal Pradesh wherein all students - boys as well as girls - are required to wear Dastaar as a prescribed school uniform.



6. Jathedar of Damdami Taksaal Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale's whole family, including his wife, two sons and their wives practiced wearing Dastaar.



7. It is a historical fact that there was a time when a price was put on the head of a male Sikh. Greedy and unprincipled people, both Hindus and Muslims, availed of this opportunity to make money. When they could no longer find male Sikhs in the villages and towns, they started beheading Khalsa women and presenting their heads as the heads of young unbearded teenager Sikh lads. Even in those dark times Sikh women did not stop wearing Dastaar. It was only because of fashion and their misunderstanding of Sikh faith that they stopped wearing Dastaar and started piercing nose and ears.



8. S. Shamsher Singh Ashok who has been an active member of the Singh Sabha movement and an erstwhile Research Scholar of the S.G.P.C., while discussing the prevalence of the use of 'Dastaar', states: "...and, consequently in the Amrit-Parchaar at the Akaal Takhat Sahib, this was a precondition even for ladies before they could be baptized there. Any woman who was not prepared to wear Dastaar was not baptized. This practice continued even after the end of the Gurudwara movement. Relaxation was made only when Giani Gurmukh Singh Musafar became the Jathedar of the Akaal Takhat."



The wearing of Dastaar enables Sikh women to show their distinctiveness of being Sikh or Khalsa like men. The importance of this Khalsa distinctiveness has been clearly emphasized by the Tenth Guru for the Khalsa as a community, both men and women, and not for men only. At the time of the baptismal ceremony, the same Amrit (Khande-Ki-Pahul) is administered to all without any distinction, including that of sex. The title of Khalsa is bestowed on all of them. The same way of life and Code of Conduct is enjoined upon all of them. All of them are forbidden to roam about, take food, etc. bareheaded. How, then, have women become exempt from any of these injunctions? Dastaar is the only answer to this contradiction.


In view of all the aforesaid, it is clear that Dastaar has been traditionally worn by Sikhs, or Khalsa men and women, right from the birth of the Khalsa Nation. This practice has been enunciated and strongly emphasized by the Satguru himself. Akhand Kirtani Jatha, white Sikhs and a few other individuals and organizations are preserving this dignified Khalsa tradition with Guru's grace. Having become aware of these facts, the Sikh intelligentsia has also started showing a remarkable response in this regard. If the Khalsa is to live in accordance with the Rules of true Gurmat , both Khalsa men and women have to accept it. Dastaar is the crown bestowed by the Satguru for the head of the Khalsa, whether man or woman, who stands bestowed with the special form of the Satguru himself. By refraining from the use of Dastaar, a Sikh becomes a follower of his own ego instead of the Will of the Satguru. Wearing of Dastaar by Sikh women is decried mainly because modern day Sikhs want their women to fall in line with other women with respect to the so called modern way of life, including the modern fashions of dress. Sikhs - both men and women - will continue to be guilty of showing disrespect to the sacred hair by keeping them uncovered. In fact, it is the Dastaar's non-acceptance (and not its acceptance) that is very unconsciously eviscerating the Rehtname of their "tremendous and literally unlimited potency that operates on the collective subconscious level" of the Sikhs in general. One fails to understand how the use of Dastaar "...destroys the purity of the Khalsa and sabotages the unity of the Khalsa", as alleged by some. In fact, the shoe is on the other foot. If Dastaar is accepted by all Khalsa men and women, it will help in maintaining the purity and ensuring the unity of the Khalsa, as even women of the Khalsa faith, like the Khalsa men, will be distinguishable.

#19 singhni84

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 10:34 AM

Great posts by Taranjeet Singh and Jagjit Singh!

Taranjeet Singh has raised a very important point:

>>>>
8. S. Shamsher Singh Ashok who has been an active member of the Singh Sabha movement and an erstwhile Research Scholar of the S.G.P.C., while discussing the prevalence of the use of 'Dastaar', states: "...and, consequently in the Amrit-Parchaar at the Akaal Takhat Sahib, this was a precondition even for ladies before they could be baptized there. Any woman who was not prepared to wear Dastaar was not baptized. This practice continued even after the end of the Gurudwara movement. Relaxation was made only when Giani Gurmukh Singh Musafar became the Jathedar of the Akaal Takhat."
>>>>

This is true. Until Musafar became Jathedar, all bibiaan were required to wear a dastaar before getting Amrit dee daat. He started "relaxing" this requirement in the 1930's after his own wife refused to wear a dastaar. He began to allow two different types of Amrit Sinchaars to be held. On X and Y days, bibiyaan required dastaars; on A and B days, bibiyaan could chhak amrit without a dastaar. Before the 1930s however, ALL bibiyaan required a dastaar in order to receive Amrit. This may have seemed like a small dhill at the time, but look at where it has brought us now.

#20 Heera Singh

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 09:42 PM

so.. what u guyz are saying is that, from the day Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj started Amrit Sanchar ceremonies, up until 1930's.... keski was mandatory when taking amrit?..
~~Dhan Guru Nanak~~Dhan Guru Nanak~~Dhan Guru Nanak~~

~~Vaheguru~~Vaheguru~~Vaheguru~~Vaheguru~~Vaheguru~~




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