64 replies to this topic

[apnepart2]

The follwers of balan dera have adopted

1. New Granth (Sri Guru Ravidas Amrit Bani Granth)
2. New Symbol (Hari)
3. New Jaikara (Jai Gurdev)
4. New Nishan Sahib.


at Varanasi yesterday.

Most were existent already, only new granth containing bani of Bhagat Ravidas only has been adopted now and made official. So, present dera head of Balan had made a statement that only Guru Granth Sahib is scriptures and now he did what he refuted earlier. He made the new announcements at Varanasi, which is now main teerth of Ravidasi, the Ravidas Mandir, and they have started to cover it with gold. Any more info? Are all of Ravidasi following suit? Is the new granth in hindi?

[vikramjitsingh]

Fateh parwaan karro jiyo,

Guru Granth Sahib ji not only immortalized Bhagat Ji's Bani but also prevented any 'chedhkhani' with Bhagat Ji's Bani.

The symbols, the Nishaan Sahib and ther Jaikara that they are migrating to are not Bhagat Ji's gifts. Our symbols, jaikaara and Nishaan Sahib are all Guruji's gifts to us.

I understand there are Ravidaisas in Punjab who are opposed to this migration. One must not forget that Punjab has the largest Dalit population but still Mayawathi's Party which is a Dalit Party has not been able to break ice in Punjab, despite her best efforts.

Guru Rakha

[Singh, Mahan]

I was expecting this to happen for quite sometime. The Ravidasia movement started in 1930s about the time Ambadkar tried to takeover the leadership of Sikhs (with the help of Congress Party). When the congress saw that newly formed SGPC is being elected by votes of the members of Sikh Panth, they encouraged Ambadekar to negotiate with the then leadership to allow a large number of Dalits from the area which is now known as Maharashtra, Karnataka, and parts of Madhya Pradesh, to become Sikhs but with some concessions on the 5 Ks and some to allow worshipping some deities. But, the Sikh leadership did not agree. The Hindu minded people in the Congress Party leadership thought that this was the way by which they could eliminate the Dalit/ Harijan problem from the Hindu society and at the same time prevent Sikhism from becoming independent from the Hindu society entirely (by bringing in Dalits in number more than the entire population of Sikhs in Punjab at that time). But those negotiations failed and M.K.Gandhi advised Ambedkar to abandon that plan. Dera Ballan came into being about the same time. In the beginning this was a movement of rallying the people of Chamar caste in Doaba region around Bhagat Ravidass’s name , but using Sri Guru Granth Sahib as the holy text. After the Independence of India the RSS and many Hindu minded congress people (especially from Punjab) encouraged it to establish as an independent group within Sikhism, separate from the mainline Sikhism (potentially and eventually to separate from Sikhism). Thus the Hindu forces were able to sow the seed of what they could not do directly through Dr. Ambadekar in 1930s. However, with time, this movement started politically to align itself with the Ambadekarites and later with BSP as well. Akalis have been thinking that because Dera Ballan was a member of Sant Samaj, so they will be able to influence them to vote Akalis through the influence of Sant Samaj. But, as usual Sikh leadership and Akalis could not see the larger political game being played to split Sihkism in many factions. They (Akalis) have been looking at only the potential for more votes for them. They have this notion that more groups based upon caste or “Bhaichara” are formed, easier it is for them to approach them for votes by announcing political and social concessions to these groups.
It is worth noting that some of the groups that started using Sri Guru Granth Sahib or the theology of Guru Nanak Dev ji as the base have been able to grow larger and larger and separated from mainline Sikhism, while population number of Sikhs remained static. It is generally, said that Hindus see a potential storm developing and coming, years in advance and plan to totally protect themselves in the event it does come; Muslims see the storm when it has just about approached them and are still able to protect themselves without much damage to them; but the Sikhs see the storm only when it has passed them and done the maximum damage and then they start to repair the damage at a great cost, but generally without much success. Akali Dal and the Sikh leadership have proved this maxim to be true over and over again.

Now, there is a talk that the Akali Dal (Badal) is likely to start developing cozier relationship with BSP. It is likely to be acceptable to BJP as well, as long as the Akalis (Badal) keep that strategy confined within Punjab.

[kuthaman]

The follwers of balan dera have adopted

1. New Granth (Sri Guru Ravidas Amrit Bani Granth)
2. New Symbol (Hari)
3. New Jaikara (Jai Gurdev)
4. New Nishan Sahib.


at Varanasi yesterday.

Most were existent already, only new granth containing bani of Bhagat Ravidas only has been adopted now and made official. So, present dera head of Balan had made a statement that only Guru Granth Sahib is scriptures and now he did what he refuted earlier. He made the new announcements at Varanasi, which is now main teerth of Ravidasi, the Ravidas Mandir, and they have started to cover it with gold. Any more info? Are all of Ravidasi following suit? Is the new granth in hindi?

I think its better this way. Less stress for the Sikh Community in my personal opinion.

[jassa]

Ravidasia was a seprate faith since dacades they just made it official this year ... they just introduced this new granth rest all was there before ... they had a different nishansahib jaikare bole etc ...

lower caste people form 55 percent of current indian population which they will target and convert ... soon ravidasia would be the biggest religion of india ... with greater no even more then hindus in india ... and they will rule delhi as told in kalki avtar in sri dasam granth ...

[BiggChan]

Perhaps this is a positive development if beadbi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is prevented. It is a shame that the community now wish to desert the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji however it is likely that the forces within have been pushing towards this division within the community for a while. Hopefully, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji will be removed with full respect and taken to Sikh Gurudwaras.

Is this just something the Dera ballan followers are doing? As the Ravidass community comprises of particular caste, will this new 'faith' be caste exclusive? What are their teachings on how the divine message was recieved by their prophets? Just queries, I'm not planning on joining

[Matheen]

It is a shame that the community now wish to desert ...........

I doubt it's the community - just their leaders playing politics with religion, like every other politicial in India.

[Singh, Mahan]

Ravidasia was a seprate faith since dacades they just made it official this year ... they just introduced this new granth rest all was there before ... they had a different nishansahib jaikare bole etc ...

lower caste people form 55 percent of current indian population which they will target and convert ... soon ravidasia would be the biggest religion of india ... with greater no even more then hindus in india ... and they will rule delhi as told in kalki avtar in sri dasam granth ...

I would guess, quite a few people may not have read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth ji. In summary, it is prophesized in Kalki Avtar composition that sometime in future, when almost everyone is engaged in sinful acts and people do not do any act of “Dharma”, an avtar will come. That avtar will be named Kalki Avtar. He will fight the evil. He will engage in a war in which all of evil doers will be killed and a “yug” (times) of “dharma “ would be established.
I have not been able to see from which Chhand (stanza) Jassa ji has drawn the inference that in Kalki Avtar it is prophesized about Ravidasias converting all the dalits and become the rulers of Delhi. I would appreciate very much if Jassa ji can tell us by quoting the name of the Chhand (Stanza), and the line number therein from where he is drawing his inference.

Ravidasias became very active from late 1960s and 1970s on. Like some other sects (like the fake Nirankaris – though in a different way) Ravidasias have been trying to highjack the Sikh panth. First they started to say that because Bhagat Ravidas lived before Guru Nanak Dev, he was the Guru of Guru Nanak Dev , then they wanted that it should be Bhagat Ravidas who should be considered as the one who started Sikhism. When that did not happen, they started to demand that Sikhs should call Bhagat Ravidas as Guru Ravidas not Bhagat Ravidas.


I hope what Jassa ji is saying is not one of the newest thing that is being circulated by them, in the hope that many Dalit Sikhs who have not read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth, fall for that it was prophesized in Dasam Granth that the all dalit community is going to convert to Ravidasis , so they should do that too.

[kuthaman]

Ravidasia was a seprate faith since dacades they just made it official this year ... they just introduced this new granth rest all was there before ... they had a different nishansahib jaikare bole etc ...

lower caste people form 55 percent of current indian population which they will target and convert ... soon ravidasia would be the biggest religion of india ... with greater no even more then hindus in india ... and they will rule delhi as told in kalki avtar in sri dasam granth ...

I would guess, quite a few people may not have read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth ji. In summary, it is prophesized in Kalki Avtar composition that sometime in future, when almost everyone is engaged in sinful acts and people do not do any act of “Dharma”, an avtar will come. That avtar will be named Kalki Avtar. He will fight the evil. He will engage in a war in which all of evil doers will be killed and a “yug” (times) of “dharma “ would be established.
I have not been able to see from which Chhand (stanza) Jassa ji has drawn the inference that in Kalki Avtar it is prophesized about Ravidasias converting all the dalits and become the rulers of Delhi. I would appreciate very much if Jassa ji can tell us by quoting the name of the Chhand (Stanza), and the line number therein from where he is drawing his inference.

Ravidasias became very active from late 1960s and 1970s on. Like some other sects (like the fake Nirankaris – though in a different way) Ravidasias have been trying to highjack the Sikh panth. First they started to say that because Bhagat Ravidas lived before Guru Nanak Dev, he was the Guru of Guru Nanak Dev , then they wanted that it should be Bhagat Ravidas who should be considered as the one who started Sikhism. When that did not happen, they started to demand that Sikhs should call Bhagat Ravidas as Guru Ravidas not Bhagat Ravidas.


I hope what Jassa ji is saying is not one of the newest thing that is being circulated by them, in the hope that many Dalit Sikhs who have not read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth, fall for that it was prophesized in Dasam Granth that the all dalit community is going to convert to Ravidasis , so they should do that too.

Let me dispel some myths. Ravidassia is a caste that has both Sikh and Hindu members. Dera Ballan is a cult, like Radhasoami, that has a cult leader that makes decisions. The cult followers, which are mostly Hindu, will follow this new faith. Many Sikh Ravidassia Temples in UK have banned cult leaders from Dera Ballan.

Ravidasia was a seprate faith since dacades they just made it official this year ... they just introduced this new granth rest all was there before ... they had a different nishansahib jaikare bole etc ...

lower caste people form 55 percent of current indian population which they will target and convert ... soon ravidasia would be the biggest religion of india ... with greater no even more then hindus in india ... and they will rule delhi as told in kalki avtar in sri dasam granth ...

I would guess, quite a few people may not have read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth ji. In summary, it is prophesized in Kalki Avtar composition that sometime in future, when almost everyone is engaged in sinful acts and people do not do any act of "Dharma", an avtar will come. That avtar will be named Kalki Avtar. He will fight the evil. He will engage in a war in which all of evil doers will be killed and a "yug" (times) of "dharma " would be established.
I have not been able to see from which Chhand (stanza) Jassa ji has drawn the inference that in Kalki Avtar it is prophesized about Ravidasias converting all the dalits and become the rulers of Delhi. I would appreciate very much if Jassa ji can tell us by quoting the name of the Chhand (Stanza), and the line number therein from where he is drawing his inference.

Ravidasias became very active from late 1960s and 1970s on. Like some other sects (like the fake Nirankaris – though in a different way) Ravidasias have been trying to highjack the Sikh panth. First they started to say that because Bhagat Ravidas lived before Guru Nanak Dev, he was the Guru of Guru Nanak Dev , then they wanted that it should be Bhagat Ravidas who should be considered as the one who started Sikhism. When that did not happen, they started to demand that Sikhs should call Bhagat Ravidas as Guru Ravidas not Bhagat Ravidas.


I hope what Jassa ji is saying is not one of the newest thing that is being circulated by them, in the hope that many Dalit Sikhs who have not read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth, fall for that it was prophesized in Dasam Granth that the all dalit community is going to convert to Ravidasis , so they should do that too.

Let me dispel some myths. Ravidassia is a caste that has both Sikh and Hindu members. Dera Ballan is a cult, like Radhasoami, that has a cult leader that makes decisions. The cult followers, which are mostly Hindu, will follow this new faith. Many Sikh Ravidassia Temples in UK have banned cult leaders from Dera Ballan.

hERE IS A STEEK DESCRIBING THE NEW DERA SCRIPTURE

http://www.sachkhandballan.org/admin/begampura/begampura22-Aug-09_1250943676.pdf

[jassa]

Ravidasia was a seprate faith since dacades they just made it official this year ... they just introduced this new granth rest all was there before ... they had a different nishansahib jaikare bole etc ...

lower caste people form 55 percent of current indian population which they will target and convert ... soon ravidasia would be the biggest religion of india ... with greater no even more then hindus in india ... and they will rule delhi as told in kalki avtar in sri dasam granth ...

I would guess, quite a few people may not have read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth ji. In summary, it is prophesized in Kalki Avtar composition that sometime in future, when almost everyone is engaged in sinful acts and people do not do any act of “Dharma”, an avtar will come. That avtar will be named Kalki Avtar. He will fight the evil. He will engage in a war in which all of evil doers will be killed and a “yug” (times) of “dharma “ would be established.
I have not been able to see from which Chhand (stanza) Jassa ji has drawn the inference that in Kalki Avtar it is prophesized about Ravidasias converting all the dalits and become the rulers of Delhi. I would appreciate very much if Jassa ji can tell us by quoting the name of the Chhand (Stanza), and the line number therein from where he is drawing his inference.

Ravidasias became very active from late 1960s and 1970s on. Like some other sects (like the fake Nirankaris – though in a different way) Ravidasias have been trying to highjack the Sikh panth. First they started to say that because Bhagat Ravidas lived before Guru Nanak Dev, he was the Guru of Guru Nanak Dev , then they wanted that it should be Bhagat Ravidas who should be considered as the one who started Sikhism. When that did not happen, they started to demand that Sikhs should call Bhagat Ravidas as Guru Ravidas not Bhagat Ravidas.


I hope what Jassa ji is saying is not one of the newest thing that is being circulated by them, in the hope that many Dalit Sikhs who have not read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth, fall for that it was prophesized in Dasam Granth that the all dalit community is going to convert to Ravidasis , so they should do that too.

ਧਰਮ ਛਤ੍ਰ ਉਤਾਰ ਕੈ ਰਨ ਛੋਰ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਭਾਜ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਬੈਸ ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਗਹਿ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਆਹਵ ਗਾਜ ਹੈਂ ॥
Leaving the canopies of religions, the Kshatriyas will run away from fighting, and Shudras will catch hold of weapons and arms and thunder in the battlefield

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ਨਏ ਨਿੱਤ ਮੱਤੰ ਉਠੈ ਏਕ ਏਕੰ ॥ ਕਰੈ ਨਿੱਤ ਅਨਰਥੰ ਅਨੇਕੰ ਅਨੇਕੰ ॥
The new sects will arise always and there will be great misfortunes.

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ਨਿਤ ਨਵ ਮਤ ਕਰ ਹੈਂ ਹਰਿ ਨਨੁਸਰਿ ਹੈਂ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਨਾਮ ਨ ਲੈ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ਤਜਤ ਕੁਰਾਨੈ ਅਉਰ ਹੀ ਪੈਂਡ ਬਤੈ ਹੈਂ ॥
They will always adopt new sects and without remembering the Name of the Lord, they will not have any faith in Him; forsaking the Vedas, Smritis and Quaran etc. they will adopt new path

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ਠਉਰ ਠਉਰ ਨਵ ਮਤ ਚਲੇ ਉਠਾ ਧਰਮ ਕੋ ਦੌਰ ॥ ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਜਹ ਤਹ ਦੁਰ ਰਹੀ ਪਾਪ ਭਇਓ ਸਰਮੌਰ ॥
New sects will arise at various places and the impact of dharma will end; the goodness will remain concealed and the sin will dance everywhere.

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ਕਿਧੌ ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਸੁਭਟ ਸਮਾਜ ਸੰਜੁਤ ਜੀਤ ਹੈ ਬਸੁਧਾ ਥਲੀ ॥ ਕਿਧੌ ਅੱਤ੍ਰ ਛੱਤ੍ਰ ਤਜੇ ਭਜੇ ਅਰੁ ਅਉਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਚਲੀ ॥
Somewhere the Shudras, bedecked with warriors will conquer the earth and somewhere the Kshatriyas, forsaking the weapons and arms, will be running hither and thither; there will be the prevalence of different types of activities.

These are just few random lines ... but if u read kalki avtar few things are very clear like shudras will be the rulers kashatriyas will give up their weapons, new religions will born every now and then, corrupt govts and sex in mind of everyone

1.99.99 ramdasia are people with low caste backgrounds
2.They form 10 - 15 percent of sikhs and 60 - 65 percent in hindus
3.SC BC and other people combined form 55 percent of indian population
4.Ramdasia religion is to combine this 55 percent not as a sect but as a religion
5.90 percent of them are not happy with sikhs as well as hindus because of the discrimination (Its a fact no matter people accept it or not in punjab villages u can see that ... few days ago a gujjar kid in bihar was beaten to death for drinking water from a tap at a hindu temple ... why would these people would love to be called as hindus and sikhs )
6.Its just a matter of few years that Ramdasia Religion would be majority in india and they will form the govt

When that did not happen, they started to demand that Sikhs should call Bhagat Ravidas as Guru Ravidas not Bhagat Ravidas.

Not true followers of bhagat ravidas existed before sikhism started ... and they treated him as GURU since ages ... we have to understand one fact very clearly ... that guru - sikh parampara existed before sikhism ... Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji is the 1st guru of sikhs but not the 1st guru in the world ... there were many gurus before them ... during bahagat ravidas jis time or bhagat kabir jis time there followers see them as guru ...

In haridwar there is a mandir of bhagat kabir ji where they are called at Satguru Kabir Shah and these sect existed since the times of bhagats ... saying that bhagat ravidas is project as Guru in 1960s is not a right statement ... he is a guru for many since the day they were born ...

and if sikhs of low castes convert to ravidasia religion is not because thats a better religion or influnced by fake material ... but because of discrimination on bases of caste by the fellow sikhs ...

There is no need to lie for them ... they can convert even by speaking truth ...

Ravidasia --- Are u happy with treatment with you in ur village gurudwara
Sikh --- No
Ravidasia --- Do u want to live with equality
Sikh --- Yes
Ravidasia --- If u leave sikhism no one will call u chammar sikh or churra sikh but a ravidasia come and convert
Sikh --- Yes why not

whats the need to lie with the conditions they are living in today ...