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Ravidasi Followers Of Baalan Dera Start A New Faith

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The follwers of balan dera have adopted

1. New Granth (Sri Guru Ravidas Amrit Bani Granth)

2. New Symbol (Hari)

3. New Jaikara (Jai Gurdev)

4. New Nishan Sahib.

at Varanasi yesterday.

Most were existent already, only new granth containing bani of Bhagat Ravidas only has been adopted now and made official. So, present dera head of Balan had made a statement that only Guru Granth Sahib is scriptures and now he did what he refuted earlier. He made the new announcements at Varanasi, which is now main teerth of Ravidasi, the Ravidas Mandir, and they have started to cover it with gold. Any more info? Are all of Ravidasi following suit? Is the new granth in hindi?

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Fateh parwaan karro jiyo,

Guru Granth Sahib ji not only immortalized Bhagat Ji's Bani but also prevented any 'chedhkhani' with Bhagat Ji's Bani.

The symbols, the Nishaan Sahib and ther Jaikara that they are migrating to are not Bhagat Ji's gifts. Our symbols, jaikaara and Nishaan Sahib are all Guruji's gifts to us.

I understand there are Ravidaisas in Punjab who are opposed to this migration. One must not forget that Punjab has the largest Dalit population but still Mayawathi's Party which is a Dalit Party has not been able to break ice in Punjab, despite her best efforts.

Guru Rakha

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I was expecting this to happen for quite sometime. The Ravidasia movement started in 1930s about the time Ambadkar tried to takeover the leadership of Sikhs (with the help of Congress Party). When the congress saw that newly formed SGPC is being elected by votes of the members of Sikh Panth, they encouraged Ambadekar to negotiate with the then leadership to allow a large number of Dalits from the area which is now known as Maharashtra, Karnataka, and parts of Madhya Pradesh, to become Sikhs but with some concessions on the 5 Ks and some to allow worshipping some deities. But, the Sikh leadership did not agree. The Hindu minded people in the Congress Party leadership thought that this was the way by which they could eliminate the Dalit/ Harijan problem from the Hindu society and at the same time prevent Sikhism from becoming independent from the Hindu society entirely (by bringing in Dalits in number more than the entire population of Sikhs in Punjab at that time). But those negotiations failed and M.K.Gandhi advised Ambedkar to abandon that plan. Dera Ballan came into being about the same time. In the beginning this was a movement of rallying the people of Chamar caste in Doaba region around Bhagat Ravidass’s name , but using Sri Guru Granth Sahib as the holy text. After the Independence of India the RSS and many Hindu minded congress people (especially from Punjab) encouraged it to establish as an independent group within Sikhism, separate from the mainline Sikhism (potentially and eventually to separate from Sikhism). Thus the Hindu forces were able to sow the seed of what they could not do directly through Dr. Ambadekar in 1930s. However, with time, this movement started politically to align itself with the Ambadekarites and later with BSP as well. Akalis have been thinking that because Dera Ballan was a member of Sant Samaj, so they will be able to influence them to vote Akalis through the influence of Sant Samaj. But, as usual Sikh leadership and Akalis could not see the larger political game being played to split Sihkism in many factions. They (Akalis) have been looking at only the potential for more votes for them. They have this notion that more groups based upon caste or “Bhaichara” are formed, easier it is for them to approach them for votes by announcing political and social concessions to these groups.

It is worth noting that some of the groups that started using Sri Guru Granth Sahib or the theology of Guru Nanak Dev ji as the base have been able to grow larger and larger and separated from mainline Sikhism, while population number of Sikhs remained static. It is generally, said that Hindus see a potential storm developing and coming, years in advance and plan to totally protect themselves in the event it does come; Muslims see the storm when it has just about approached them and are still able to protect themselves without much damage to them; but the Sikhs see the storm only when it has passed them and done the maximum damage and then they start to repair the damage at a great cost, but generally without much success. Akali Dal and the Sikh leadership have proved this maxim to be true over and over again.

Now, there is a talk that the Akali Dal (Badal) is likely to start developing cozier relationship with BSP. It is likely to be acceptable to BJP as well, as long as the Akalis (Badal) keep that strategy confined within Punjab.

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The follwers of balan dera have adopted

1. New Granth (Sri Guru Ravidas Amrit Bani Granth)

2. New Symbol (Hari)

3. New Jaikara (Jai Gurdev)

4. New Nishan Sahib.

at Varanasi yesterday.

Most were existent already, only new granth containing bani of Bhagat Ravidas only has been adopted now and made official. So, present dera head of Balan had made a statement that only Guru Granth Sahib is scriptures and now he did what he refuted earlier. He made the new announcements at Varanasi, which is now main teerth of Ravidasi, the Ravidas Mandir, and they have started to cover it with gold. Any more info? Are all of Ravidasi following suit? Is the new granth in hindi?

I think its better this way. Less stress for the Sikh Community in my personal opinion.

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Ravidasia was a seprate faith since dacades they just made it official this year ... they just introduced this new granth rest all was there before ... they had a different nishansahib jaikare bole etc ...

lower caste people form 55 percent of current indian population which they will target and convert ... soon ravidasia would be the biggest religion of india ... with greater no even more then hindus in india ... and they will rule delhi as told in kalki avtar in sri dasam granth ...

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Perhaps this is a positive development if beadbi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is prevented. It is a shame that the community now wish to desert the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji however it is likely that the forces within have been pushing towards this division within the community for a while. Hopefully, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji will be removed with full respect and taken to Sikh Gurudwaras.

Is this just something the Dera ballan followers are doing? As the Ravidass community comprises of particular caste, will this new 'faith' be caste exclusive? What are their teachings on how the divine message was recieved by their prophets? Just queries, I'm not planning on joining :D

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It is a shame that the community now wish to desert ...........

I doubt it's the community - just their leaders playing politics with religion, like every other politicial in India.

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Ravidasia was a seprate faith since dacades they just made it official this year ... they just introduced this new granth rest all was there before ... they had a different nishansahib jaikare bole etc ...

lower caste people form 55 percent of current indian population which they will target and convert ... soon ravidasia would be the biggest religion of india ... with greater no even more then hindus in india ... and they will rule delhi as told in kalki avtar in sri dasam granth ...

I would guess, quite a few people may not have read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth ji. In summary, it is prophesized in Kalki Avtar composition that sometime in future, when almost everyone is engaged in sinful acts and people do not do any act of “Dharma”, an avtar will come. That avtar will be named Kalki Avtar. He will fight the evil. He will engage in a war in which all of evil doers will be killed and a “yug” (times) of “dharma “ would be established.

I have not been able to see from which Chhand (stanza) Jassa ji has drawn the inference that in Kalki Avtar it is prophesized about Ravidasias converting all the dalits and become the rulers of Delhi. I would appreciate very much if Jassa ji can tell us by quoting the name of the Chhand (Stanza), and the line number therein from where he is drawing his inference.

Ravidasias became very active from late 1960s and 1970s on. Like some other sects (like the fake Nirankaris – though in a different way) Ravidasias have been trying to highjack the Sikh panth. First they started to say that because Bhagat Ravidas lived before Guru Nanak Dev, he was the Guru of Guru Nanak Dev , then they wanted that it should be Bhagat Ravidas who should be considered as the one who started Sikhism. When that did not happen, they started to demand that Sikhs should call Bhagat Ravidas as Guru Ravidas not Bhagat Ravidas.

I hope what Jassa ji is saying is not one of the newest thing that is being circulated by them, in the hope that many Dalit Sikhs who have not read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth, fall for that it was prophesized in Dasam Granth that the all dalit community is going to convert to Ravidasis , so they should do that too.

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Ravidasia was a seprate faith since dacades they just made it official this year ... they just introduced this new granth rest all was there before ... they had a different nishansahib jaikare bole etc ...

lower caste people form 55 percent of current indian population which they will target and convert ... soon ravidasia would be the biggest religion of india ... with greater no even more then hindus in india ... and they will rule delhi as told in kalki avtar in sri dasam granth ...

I would guess, quite a few people may not have read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth ji. In summary, it is prophesized in Kalki Avtar composition that sometime in future, when almost everyone is engaged in sinful acts and people do not do any act of “Dharma”, an avtar will come. That avtar will be named Kalki Avtar. He will fight the evil. He will engage in a war in which all of evil doers will be killed and a “yug” (times) of “dharma “ would be established.

I have not been able to see from which Chhand (stanza) Jassa ji has drawn the inference that in Kalki Avtar it is prophesized about Ravidasias converting all the dalits and become the rulers of Delhi. I would appreciate very much if Jassa ji can tell us by quoting the name of the Chhand (Stanza), and the line number therein from where he is drawing his inference.

Ravidasias became very active from late 1960s and 1970s on. Like some other sects (like the fake Nirankaris – though in a different way) Ravidasias have been trying to highjack the Sikh panth. First they started to say that because Bhagat Ravidas lived before Guru Nanak Dev, he was the Guru of Guru Nanak Dev , then they wanted that it should be Bhagat Ravidas who should be considered as the one who started Sikhism. When that did not happen, they started to demand that Sikhs should call Bhagat Ravidas as Guru Ravidas not Bhagat Ravidas.

I hope what Jassa ji is saying is not one of the newest thing that is being circulated by them, in the hope that many Dalit Sikhs who have not read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth, fall for that it was prophesized in Dasam Granth that the all dalit community is going to convert to Ravidasis , so they should do that too.

Let me dispel some myths. Ravidassia is a caste that has both Sikh and Hindu members. Dera Ballan is a cult, like Radhasoami, that has a cult leader that makes decisions. The cult followers, which are mostly Hindu, will follow this new faith. Many Sikh Ravidassia Temples in UK have banned cult leaders from Dera Ballan.

Ravidasia was a seprate faith since dacades they just made it official this year ... they just introduced this new granth rest all was there before ... they had a different nishansahib jaikare bole etc ...

lower caste people form 55 percent of current indian population which they will target and convert ... soon ravidasia would be the biggest religion of india ... with greater no even more then hindus in india ... and they will rule delhi as told in kalki avtar in sri dasam granth ...

I would guess, quite a few people may not have read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth ji. In summary, it is prophesized in Kalki Avtar composition that sometime in future, when almost everyone is engaged in sinful acts and people do not do any act of "Dharma", an avtar will come. That avtar will be named Kalki Avtar. He will fight the evil. He will engage in a war in which all of evil doers will be killed and a "yug" (times) of "dharma " would be established.

I have not been able to see from which Chhand (stanza) Jassa ji has drawn the inference that in Kalki Avtar it is prophesized about Ravidasias converting all the dalits and become the rulers of Delhi. I would appreciate very much if Jassa ji can tell us by quoting the name of the Chhand (Stanza), and the line number therein from where he is drawing his inference.

Ravidasias became very active from late 1960s and 1970s on. Like some other sects (like the fake Nirankaris – though in a different way) Ravidasias have been trying to highjack the Sikh panth. First they started to say that because Bhagat Ravidas lived before Guru Nanak Dev, he was the Guru of Guru Nanak Dev , then they wanted that it should be Bhagat Ravidas who should be considered as the one who started Sikhism. When that did not happen, they started to demand that Sikhs should call Bhagat Ravidas as Guru Ravidas not Bhagat Ravidas.

I hope what Jassa ji is saying is not one of the newest thing that is being circulated by them, in the hope that many Dalit Sikhs who have not read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth, fall for that it was prophesized in Dasam Granth that the all dalit community is going to convert to Ravidasis , so they should do that too.

Let me dispel some myths. Ravidassia is a caste that has both Sikh and Hindu members. Dera Ballan is a cult, like Radhasoami, that has a cult leader that makes decisions. The cult followers, which are mostly Hindu, will follow this new faith. Many Sikh Ravidassia Temples in UK have banned cult leaders from Dera Ballan.

hERE IS A STEEK DESCRIBING THE NEW DERA SCRIPTURE

http://www.sachkhandballan.org/admin/begampura/begampura22-Aug-09_1250943676.pdf

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Ravidasia was a seprate faith since dacades they just made it official this year ... they just introduced this new granth rest all was there before ... they had a different nishansahib jaikare bole etc ...

lower caste people form 55 percent of current indian population which they will target and convert ... soon ravidasia would be the biggest religion of india ... with greater no even more then hindus in india ... and they will rule delhi as told in kalki avtar in sri dasam granth ...

I would guess, quite a few people may not have read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth ji. In summary, it is prophesized in Kalki Avtar composition that sometime in future, when almost everyone is engaged in sinful acts and people do not do any act of “Dharma”, an avtar will come. That avtar will be named Kalki Avtar. He will fight the evil. He will engage in a war in which all of evil doers will be killed and a “yug” (times) of “dharma “ would be established.

I have not been able to see from which Chhand (stanza) Jassa ji has drawn the inference that in Kalki Avtar it is prophesized about Ravidasias converting all the dalits and become the rulers of Delhi. I would appreciate very much if Jassa ji can tell us by quoting the name of the Chhand (Stanza), and the line number therein from where he is drawing his inference.

Ravidasias became very active from late 1960s and 1970s on. Like some other sects (like the fake Nirankaris – though in a different way) Ravidasias have been trying to highjack the Sikh panth. First they started to say that because Bhagat Ravidas lived before Guru Nanak Dev, he was the Guru of Guru Nanak Dev , then they wanted that it should be Bhagat Ravidas who should be considered as the one who started Sikhism. When that did not happen, they started to demand that Sikhs should call Bhagat Ravidas as Guru Ravidas not Bhagat Ravidas.

I hope what Jassa ji is saying is not one of the newest thing that is being circulated by them, in the hope that many Dalit Sikhs who have not read Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth, fall for that it was prophesized in Dasam Granth that the all dalit community is going to convert to Ravidasis , so they should do that too.

ਧਰਮ ਛਤ੍ਰ ਉਤਾਰ ਕੈ ਰਨ ਛੋਰ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਭਾਜ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਬੈਸ ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਗਹਿ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਆਹਵ ਗਾਜ ਹੈਂ ॥

Leaving the canopies of religions, the Kshatriyas will run away from fighting, and Shudras will catch hold of weapons and arms and thunder in the battlefield

---------------------------------------------

ਨਏ ਨਿੱਤ ਮੱਤੰ ਉਠੈ ਏਕ ਏਕੰ ॥ ਕਰੈ ਨਿੱਤ ਅਨਰਥੰ ਅਨੇਕੰ ਅਨੇਕੰ ॥

The new sects will arise always and there will be great misfortunes.

-------------------------------------------

ਨਿਤ ਨਵ ਮਤ ਕਰ ਹੈਂ ਹਰਿ ਨਨੁਸਰਿ ਹੈਂ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਨਾਮ ਨ ਲੈ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ਤਜਤ ਕੁਰਾਨੈ ਅਉਰ ਹੀ ਪੈਂਡ ਬਤੈ ਹੈਂ ॥

They will always adopt new sects and without remembering the Name of the Lord, they will not have any faith in Him; forsaking the Vedas, Smritis and Quaran etc. they will adopt new path

--------------------------------------------

ਠਉਰ ਠਉਰ ਨਵ ਮਤ ਚਲੇ ਉਠਾ ਧਰਮ ਕੋ ਦੌਰ ॥ ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਜਹ ਤਹ ਦੁਰ ਰਹੀ ਪਾਪ ਭਇਓ ਸਰਮੌਰ ॥

New sects will arise at various places and the impact of dharma will end; the goodness will remain concealed and the sin will dance everywhere.

---------------------------------------------

ਕਿਧੌ ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਸੁਭਟ ਸਮਾਜ ਸੰਜੁਤ ਜੀਤ ਹੈ ਬਸੁਧਾ ਥਲੀ ॥ ਕਿਧੌ ਅੱਤ੍ਰ ਛੱਤ੍ਰ ਤਜੇ ਭਜੇ ਅਰੁ ਅਉਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਚਲੀ ॥

Somewhere the Shudras, bedecked with warriors will conquer the earth and somewhere the Kshatriyas, forsaking the weapons and arms, will be running hither and thither; there will be the prevalence of different types of activities.

These are just few random lines ... but if u read kalki avtar few things are very clear like shudras will be the rulers kashatriyas will give up their weapons, new religions will born every now and then, corrupt govts and sex in mind of everyone

1.99.99 ramdasia are people with low caste backgrounds

2.They form 10 - 15 percent of sikhs and 60 - 65 percent in hindus

3.SC BC and other people combined form 55 percent of indian population

4.Ramdasia religion is to combine this 55 percent not as a sect but as a religion

5.90 percent of them are not happy with sikhs as well as hindus because of the discrimination (Its a fact no matter people accept it or not in punjab villages u can see that ... few days ago a gujjar kid in bihar was beaten to death for drinking water from a tap at a hindu temple ... why would these people would love to be called as hindus and sikhs )

6.Its just a matter of few years that Ramdasia Religion would be majority in india and they will form the govt

When that did not happen, they started to demand that Sikhs should call Bhagat Ravidas as Guru Ravidas not Bhagat Ravidas.

Not true followers of bhagat ravidas existed before sikhism started ... and they treated him as GURU since ages ... we have to understand one fact very clearly ... that guru - sikh parampara existed before sikhism ... Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji is the 1st guru of sikhs but not the 1st guru in the world ... there were many gurus before them ... during bahagat ravidas jis time or bhagat kabir jis time there followers see them as guru ...

In haridwar there is a mandir of bhagat kabir ji where they are called at Satguru Kabir Shah and these sect existed since the times of bhagats ... saying that bhagat ravidas is project as Guru in 1960s is not a right statement ... he is a guru for many since the day they were born ...

and if sikhs of low castes convert to ravidasia religion is not because thats a better religion or influnced by fake material ... but because of discrimination on bases of caste by the fellow sikhs ...

There is no need to lie for them ... they can convert even by speaking truth ...

Ravidasia --- Are u happy with treatment with you in ur village gurudwara

Sikh --- No

Ravidasia --- Do u want to live with equality

Sikh --- Yes

Ravidasia --- If u leave sikhism no one will call u chammar sikh or churra sikh but a ravidasia come and convert

Sikh --- Yes why not

whats the need to lie with the conditions they are living in today ...

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Fateh parwaan karro jiyo,

Again there is an article in today's HT, Chandigarh that all Deras of this sect have not agreed to what this specific Dera is mandating.

Point to be noted is that when they removed Guru ji (sorry of the terminology) from their Dera they removed Bani of Bhagat Ravidas too. Sikhs may have a problem with the Sect followers but not with Bhagat Ji.... this is what these fools (sorry but I could not control myslef) have not understood.

Guur Rakha

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unnecessary quote removed

Ravidassia is a movement that started in British times. Bhagat Ravidas Jis oldest manuscript writings exist within the Guru Granth Sahib. Its a raj inspired movement that was founded by a guy named Mangoo Ram. Kabirpanthis have been around before Sikhism, but the whole concept of Ravidassia is a new thing. Where are you getting the idea that all low caste Sikhs are miraculously become Ravidas. Even if they do convert they will still be abused. The poorest person in India has the same status the poorest person in Pakistan.

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What if come tomorrow the dera sacha sauda or noormahalia declares itself to be separate religion.Wouldnt sikhs become small minority in punjab.

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What if come tomorrow the dera sacha sauda or noormahalia declares itself to be separate religion.Wouldnt sikhs become small minority in punjab.

Granted they have substantial followers but its likely they exaggerate their numbers. The large influx of migrant workers and the exodus of indiginous Punjabi Sikhs could possibly lead to a Sikh minority in Punjab. May be this is what the 'powers that be' want.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100202/punjab.htm#1

Sant Niranjan Dass, disciples return

Security beefed up

Tribune News Service

Jalandhar, February 1

Scores of disciples led by Sant Niranjan Dass, head, Dera Sachkhand Ballan, reached Jalandhar railway station on Monday afternoon after declaring a separate religion -- Ravidass Dharm -- for their community at Seer Gowardhanpur in Banaras. They were given a warm welcome by members of the Ravidass community on reaching here in Begampura Express.

Earlier tension prevailed in the city between members of the Samaj Bachao Morcha (SBM) and Ambedkar Sena when the SBM convener objected to the creation of a separate religion for the Ravidass community. At a formal press conference at the Press Club here, SBM convener Gian Chand said the members of the Ravidass community were not bound to accept the decision to create a separate religion taken in Banaras, the birthplace of Guru Ravidass on his birth anniversary.

When Ambedkar Sena activists came to know about the SBM press conference, they reached outside the Press Club and started raising slogans against the SBM and in favour of the Ravidass community.

At this, the district administration deployed heavy security force, including riot control vehicles, near the Press Club in order to avoid any untoward incident.

Later security was also beefed up at Jalandhar city railway station as the Ravidass followers led by Sant Niranjan Dass were about to arrive here from Banaras in Begampura Express. Almost all district police officials led by SSP RK Jaiswal were seen supervising the security arrangements.

While the creation of the separate religion Ravidass Dharm was announced at Banaras, the community will also have its own religious book, Amrit Bani Guru Ravidass and a separate symbol, Hari.

Ravidassis led by Dera Sachkhand Ballan decided to create a separate religious identity for the community after the Vienna firing incident in which Sant Niranjan Dass was wounded whereas his deputy, Sant Ramanand, was killed in May last year.

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Jassa veer do you know that JATTS are NOT a high caste. They are just influential because they became powerful after fall of Mughals and due to converting to Sikhi in large numbers during Misl period they became masters of Punjab. Outside Punjab Jatts are not at top of Society where Thakurs and Ranas are traditional high castes. A long time back there was move to classify Jatts as OBC (other backward classes) by Union Govt but they didnt do it. SO EVERYONE STOP TAKING OUT YOUR FRUSTRATION ON JATTS ON ONE PRETEXT OR THE OTHER.

The lines quoted by Jassa prove nothing. Jatts are not Kashtriyas (Khatri in Punjabi). And Shudras are not Chammar but 'Valmikis' . Shudras were at the lowest catagory of society in Ancient India who sweeped and cleaned streets and houses. They did cleaning Garbage jobs which is still done by Valmikis in cities and CHURE in villages. Chure are closest to Shuder and next Valmikis. Ravidasi fall under 'Vaishya' caste which did jobs connected with tools i.e making shoes from leather. Use of word Chura is banned in India and you can get imprisoned for six months. So if anyones is to rule Delhi it will be Valmikis and i dont see it happening in any time in near future as most Valmikis are members of Bajrang Dal, a militant wing of RSS and are still under Hindu fold. Ravidasi are Chamaar. They are a low caste but not the lowest.

A true Ravidasi is always a Sikh of Guru Granth Sahib. Period. And if anyone is to rule it is 'Khalsa' which comprises all or no castes.

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Why make it jatt vs chammar ... i havent even used word jatt in my posts ??? Why do jatts feel bad when they are told the truth that majority of them in punjab are treating lower castes people even verse then done by brhamins in punjab ... its hardly to find a village in punjab today where there is a same gurdwara of jatts and chammers ... every one should give a visit back to punjab and see how many gurdwaras are there in their village and who created ... This problem is ignored for years and it has shown bad results and we are ignoreing it even today what would be the possible outcome ... because when someone says jatts the majority in punjab villages are responsible for treating lower caste peoples in village then people take it as attack on themself and as anti-jatt propoganda because they are doing it ...

and there are no vaish brhaman and shuder in sikhism ... guru sahib made us kashatriya ... every shasterdhari is a kashatriya ... thats why singh name was adopted ... char varran ek varran karau vaheguru singhan te naam jappau ... i would make four castes in one that is shasterdhari khashtriya ...

A true Ravidasi is always a Sikh of Guru Granth Sahib. Period. And if anyone is to rule it is 'Khalsa' which comprises all or no castes.

a true jatt a true ravidasia a true bhapa or anyone can never be a true sikh ...

and saying that there is no problem of caste system in sikhi is the biggest ignoreance one can have as a sikh ... jiddan kabutar billi nu dekh ke akhan band kar lainda ke koi billi nahi ayyi ohhi hall hai ... jaat paat de influnce nu sikhich dekh ke akhan band kar lao ke sikhich koi jaat paat hai hi nahi ... and if someone speaks out people call him so ur anti jatt ...

See this video and every one is free to take this video as one of the following

1.Showing the biggest problem in sikhism today and try and do something

2.Work of RSS or congress

3.Anti Jatt video

4.Ignore it

5.a fake video such things dont happen

its totaly upto us ...

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Fateh parwaan karro jiyo,

Majority of the Ravidasia Deras are not in agreement with Dera Ballan on its new religion decleration. Seems the Dera Ballan overeacted and if you aks me ultimately this Dera will relent and repent.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100204/punjab.htm#3

Guru Ravidass sampradaye rejects separate religion

Dharmendra Joshi and Amaninder Pal

Tribune News Service

Raipur Rasulpur (Jalandhar), February 3

In a significant development, the Sri Guru Ravidass Sadhu Sampradaye Society, Punjab, has rejected the separate religion for the community declared by Dera Sachkhand Ballan at Seer Gowardhanpur in Banaras a few days back.

The president of the sampradaye, Sant Nirmal Dass, informed mediapersons soon after a brainstorming session of the representatives of different deras at Raipur Rasulpur village on Wednesday that the separate religion declared for the Ravidass community might be a personal decision of a particular trust.

Sant Nirmal Dass further said the matter of creation of a separate religion for the Ravidass community was not even discussed with the representatives of the Sant Samaj and other representatives of the community. “A single trust or Dera has no right to announce a separate religion for the entire community,” he added.

Going one step further, Sant Nirmal Dass said the already existing maryada at religious places of the Ravidass community should be continued instead of adopting the new one announced by Dera Ballan.

Sant Nirmal Dass said Guru Granth Sahib should again be placed at those religious places of the Ravidass community where Amrit Bani Guru Ravidass had been placed after the declaration of the new religion.

Earlier SGPC chief Avtar Singh Makkar also reportedly held parleys with several representatives of the Ravidass community in view of the recent developments during his visit to Jalandhar on Wednesday.

Varinder Singh adds from Amritsar: The Sri Guru Ravidas Sadhu Sampardaye Society and Sant Samaj Bachao Morcha have asserted that they will continue to hold Parkash of Guru Granth Sahib in gurdwaras related to Guru Ravidass.

On the other hand, the SGPC chief Avtar Singh has appealed to the Ravidassia community to ignore any appeals seeking severing of relations by members of the Ravidassia community with the Sikhs.

“Since Guru Arjan Dev had included the baani of Guru Ravidass in Guru Granth Sahib, the entire Sikh world holds his bani parallel to that of the other Sikh Gurus. The Ravidassia community should ignore any appeals to divide the two communities,” said Avtar Singh after holding a meeting with leaders of the Sri Guru Ravidass Sadhu Sampardaye Society and Sant Samaj Bachao Morcha. The SGPC chief and leaders of the Ravidassia community held serious discussions here today as to how to prevent any further rift between the two communities.

Guru Rakha

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Dera Ballan are just trying to create controversy by acting as if they are spokesmen for the whole Ravidass community. What they want is for Sikhs to vocalise discontent and condemn the Ravidass community at large in order to create division by alienating them so they think they have no option but to have a seperate religion. Also, why not open the headquarters at Ballan? They've opted for U.P as they have a large pool of potential followers who can then swamp Punjab.

Much credit due to those leaders in the Ravidass community for condemning Dera Ballans actions.

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Guys Stop Quoting posts in full. When you quote a post please delete most of its content in the middle. Most of this topic is just repeated posts in quotes.

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Hi all:

Jai Gurudev to all:

I think I should be able to contribute something to this forum and clarify certain issues and history surrounding the religion and current commotion.

As some individuals have pointed out in this form that this may be welcome change and it is actually a welcome change because it is bound to reduce tensions and start the healing process between sikhs and chamars. Please don't mind my use of word chamar because I am a chamar myself so some self deprecation is allowed I hope :-). Ravidassia are essentially chamars at this point unless later on brahmins etc. ;-) also start joining.

Bit long though but believe me it is an interesting read and I have randomly changed fonts to keep you guys awake

Anyway to the serious stuff below.

Dera Ballan from 35000 feet

====================

Dera Ballan has been active in the punjab region, for dalits since approximately 1900s and since then, there has been a very close association between sikhs and this dera to the point, where Jathedar Sahib of the Akal Takth (please don't curse jathedars now, those were religious visits) would visit the dera on regular basis. The dera has maintained its distinctness by displaying the picture of Guru Ravidass Ji while in a separate place with proper respect, Guru Granth Sahib(henceforth called GGS) was also prominently displayed. Dera Ballan saints have also been respected very well in sikh community and were regularly given Siropas at Sri Harmandir Sahib also They have deliberately kept themselves away from politics and never in the past aligned with any political leader or anything. This principle has been adhered to so strictly that even on the last rites of Sant Rama Nand, no politician was allowed to address public. Right from the inception of this dera, from the time of Baba Pipal Dass, Sant Sarwan dass, Sant Hari Dass, Sant Garib Dass and current head Sant Niranjan Dass, GGS was kept and its message was spread across the world. In all the Guru Ravidass temples that this dera opened and/or assisted in opening across the world, GGS Sahib was prominently installed and displayed.

Even though this dera had the capability to open temples in the name of their own gurus but they never did it to maintain the community unity while many of the sants in Ravidass Sant Samaj who are being opportunistic and opposing Dera ballan now have opened temples in their own names in UK and USA rather than Guru Ravidass or one of sikh gurus.

This Dera has truly served the dalits of the region, and riots, following the murder of Sant Rama Nand by sikh terrorists, was an indication of that.

While staying in Punjab, this dera also built a grand temple in memory of Guru Ravidass Ji in Varanasi UP, the birthplace of Guru Ravidass Ji. It may be mentioned here when Varanasi temple was inaugurated, local population of UP was preventing the prakash of GGS as those were the days of terrorism in Punjab, and local populace addressed GGS as "Aantakvadion Ka Granth". At that point Sant Garib Dass mentioned that if GGS doesn't go there than he, the dera head, would also not go to Varanasi temple even though he was intrumental in constructing it and funding it. Such was the committment to GGS. Eventually local population was made to understand and GGS's prakash was done at the Varanasi temple. All the saints of this dera including the current head Sant Niranjan Dass who was gravely injured in Vienna have in true sense followed life ascribed by GGS.

"After the declaration of Ravidassia religion, it may be further added that the people who were protesting against prakash of GGS originally at the Varanasi temple were brethren of this "Samaj Bachao Morcha" which is related to addharam mission and Vishav Hindu Parishad. This same "Samaj Bachao Morcha" is now trying to work opposite and vouching for GGS and "save" social fabric of Punjab. So readers should make their own judgements. These people of Samaj Bachao Morcha have nothing to do with GGS and they are just in there to have some mileage out of all this. Since Addharam Mission (parent of this Samaj Bachao Morcha) has been at odds with this dera because mission members were always against the prakash of GGS at Varanasi and they wanted control of the Varanasi temple (which btw also led to a litigation which Dera won). Even later on also (couple of years ago), these same mission people joined RSS elements and Vishav Hindu Parishad and then arranged a march to Varanasi Temple and tried to take over the temple and remove GGS from there, but Dera followers prevented it. So readers can see behind this multiface "Samaj Bachao Morcha". The purpose of this group is nothing more than attempt to hurt the Dera. Samaj Bachao Morcha people are actually mischevious elements. Nobody has heard of these people in Ravidassia community untill now.

People are wondering why dera head is quiet after new religion has been declared. Firstly, Sant Niranjan Dass rarely speaks and secondly what has been done has been done in good faith and is beneficial to all. it will be realized in due course of time. Ravidassias have always loved and respected GGS and Sikh gurus and would continue to do but then comes a point sometimes where concept of heathy separation applies.

It is the purity of dera ballan saints that all the communities surrounding the area have utmost respect for these saints

Sant Rama Nand

===========

Sant Rama Nand was an educated individual (a graduate) and was a great orator of the bani of GGS and Guru Ravidass Ji. It can be very clearly stated that he was one of the best amongst his contemporaries as far as knowledge of GGS was concerned. There was not even an ounce of him which was not dedicated to GGS. Whenever someone mentioned to him about a separate granth, he threw away that idea and didn't entertain it any further. He was a very practical human being and again kept politicians at bay. He was also a man who one could not fool around with. He had a very very sharp sense of judgement. He was able to continuosly recite bani from GGS along with bani of Guru Ravidass for hours. All the community knew about his love for the GGS and his knowledge on it very clearly, and this was also one of the reasons for such an anger after his death i.e. he respected the GGS and spread its message for whole his life but at the end, he had to loose his life for it in its presence. His death has completely changed the landscape and that in an irreversible manner.

He was a go getter and was instrumental in successfully completing many projects for the community. Sikh scholars of the time and Akal Takth people knew that very well. They knew his abilities and respected him very much. Akal takth and prominent sikhs scholars who knew him very well knew what has been lost and what would be its implications.

Since Sant Rama Nand and dera also kept all the politicians at bay include the dalit politicians they faced hardships sometimes. Dera, right from the beginning had decided to follow route of non partisanship and concentrate of guru ravidass preaching.

Ravidass Sant Samaj

=================

Dera Ballan has always been sort of at at odds with Ravidass Sant Samaj because of certain reasons:

== Most of the Sants in the Sant Samaj are only worried about running their own deras like fiefdoms and their finances were wholly devoted for their own purpose rather than any community work. dera ballan detested this.

== Some of them got money from abroad and started lending them on interest to people which Dera Ballan considered unholy and anti community as our community is already poor.

== Sant Samaj saints laughed at the idea in the beginning when Dera Ballan saints wanted to build Varanasi temple in memory of Guru Ravidass. They essentially stated "why bother about Benaras santji, let's run our deras first". So very few came forward. Dera ballan went alone with very few participants.

== Since dera Ballan had and has enormous support, it became as a cause of jealousy for Sadhu Sampradai as most of them had nobody to accompany them when they visited foreign countries while when Dera Ballan Saints visited, they were mobbed by followers and donations fell from sky. Obviously people see what work was being done by Dera ballan.

== Many of these Sant Samaj saints have no education and they don't know what is happening in the world around and hence no concept of leadership and guidance to the community. They are merely retaining or sitting on the throne left by their ancestors who did work for community.

== At least one of these saints collected money from abroad dishonestly in the name of Dera Ballan and that obviously angered dera ballan.

== Many of these saints have gone to Dera Ballan from time to time and ask for money but dera Saints responded by saying that work for the community first and donations would automatically follow. This angered many of them.

So for quite some time, there has been consistent attempt by the Ravidass Sant Samaj to discredit or harm dera ballan and somehow to bring it down. They consider Dera Ballan as a lone wolf but community at large is fully behind Dera Ballan because community knows their track record. Dera ballan never bothered about this sant samaj and continued in their efforts to spread mission of Guru ravidass ji.

Varanasi temple issue

================

Since, now Varanasi temple is built and carries high profile as mecca of Ravidassis and sant samaj knows very well about the visibility of anybody who visits there, the same Sant Samaj, which scoffed at this idea of the temple in UP, now want to be part of it without doing anything. Obviously this is not going to happen and this has angered and frustrated them further. This is the reason that bunch of these people from sasnt samaj are trying to use the issue of Ravidass Granth to harm dera ballan. This is not going to yield anything. You can imagine that these sant samaj people claiming to be followers of Guru Ravidass and claiming to be representing Ravidassis are refusing to be called by the name Ravidassia. Today these Sant Samaj people who are claiming to be saviors of sikh religion and coming out with press statements, if you go to their dera, each of them have pictures of their own gurus, guru ravidass and GGS kept side by side along with murtis etc. They don't behave like saints of the past who had humility and love for human beings. These people are busy in running their deras.

There are almost 130 ravidass deras in punjab and this sant samaj is only supported by 11 deras. This you guys may not know about.

It may be noted that community and dera ballan saints understood these people very well it very well and didn't bother dealing with them or asking them when it came to point of declaring new religion and new holy book because these people wouldn't have anything to contribute anyway. These people are more like loosers. Take the word that if Dera Ballan had decided to keep Guru Granth Sahib then you would have seen the same Sant Samaj leading the community opposite way and try to cash on Sant Rama Nand's murder and themselves come up with another granth. This is their color unfortunately.

Post Sant Rama Nand

===============

After the murder of Sant Rama nand, obviously the situation has changed. Community is the driver of this change that Sants of Dera Ballan has brought.

For quite sometime, as dalits are asserting themselves, sikh code of conduct has been the cause of trouble in Guru Ravidass temples in India and abroad. ravidassias now don't want to be in a situation where they build ravidass temples, keep Guru Granth Sahib and then be dictated by the mariada of sikhs. This declaration actually removes that obstacle of mariada. Community feels that under the garb of mariada sikh terrorists have murdered Sant rama nand and Sikh mariada has also resulted into internal strife at Ravidass temples and they don't feel free to worship guru Ravidass in their own manner, let's have our own granth.

This new dharam and granth would have happened anyway one day, it just got sped up by Sant Rama Nand's murder.

Sikhs at large, should instead view it as a positive development as it is defusing of the situation that arose after Sant Rama Nand's murder. Now "Naa Rahega Baans or Naa bajegi Bansuri" i.e reason for trouble is gone. Since GGS will not be there, hence no sikh mariada.

Ravidassis were never part of sikhism anyway. There was a very tenuous relation between them and Sikhs never regarded Ravidass as Guru. The sikh code of conduct had sealed conduct of sikhs as far as guruship was concerned and Ravidassias today are not content with it. They don't want interference in their religious places and be remote controlled.

The suppost for dera ballan is enormous amongst the populace and it is a matter of time that other deras will also be forced by their followers to accept what has been dictated. Internally Sant Samaj also knows that whatever is happening is good but they are trying to leverage this opportunity to harm dera ballan and some of them are sitting on the sidelines to see which way the wind blows.

I think this is the time that Sikhs should do introspection too. Ravidassis have never and would never disrespect Gurus or Guru Granth Sahib and this development by Dera Ballan should be looked at in a positive manner. The concentrated force of dalits and sikhs can be used to achive a lot. If sikhs don't smarten up and read between the lines and stretch a hand of peace, it is to their (sikhs) harm as the change is irreversible and was long due for Ravidassis. The chamars of today are not chamars of yesteryears.

And as they say, at the end, Truth wins !

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wow, moderator you allow such stuff. would I be allowed to post such things too..?

Yaar, why go against the singers...?

They just reflect mood of the public. I am sure she will sing a similar song for khalistan also, if paid good money.

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I do not understand your position. I see a large post, but I cannot really understand what you are getting at. Please give me a small summary of your point.

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If they want to be recognized as a seperate group of people thats understandable. Their entitled to their beliefs.

Recently in India I witnessed 1 of their parades. In which they were walking by doing bhangra playing tunes like "ankhi put chammara deh". Thats fair enough aswell.

But Alot of them were carrying unsheathed swords raised in the air, hockey sticks, baseball bats and iron rods which felt intimidating. Shouting slogans calling the Vienna Sikhs terrorists.

All this was going on with a photo of Bhagat Ravidass ji at the front of the Parade.

In 1 pend i know of, the sarpanch is Ravidassi. The jatts in that particular pend had no problem with that. But when it all kicked off recently in Vienna, the same Sarpanch and his goons were going round burning Sikh Shops and businesses down while leaving the Ravidassi ones untouched. They were smashing up cars that had Sant Bhindranwalle Stickers on them.

The sarpanch got a beating and few of his goons were murdered in that pend for that.

We all hear the symphatisthing stories too often about how they are the down trodden minority that we treat badly. But bear in mind, its this same down trodden minority that is the majority and will be smashing up your homes, shops, cars if it kicks off again.

Just a word of warning.

When lucha saudhas body guard shot a sikh dead. I noticed Sikhs didnt go round singling out and burning/smashing every so called low caste shop and business.

IN jallandhar the train carriages that got burnt are still sitting there and it can be seen today. Such behavior is unnacceptable.

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