Ravidasi Followers Of Baalan Dera Start A New Faith

[rollingpunjab]

apnepart2,

Come on, I not calling Guru Nanak a mischief. He added Guru Ravidass's bani as a mark of utmost respect for Guru Ravidass Ji. I was only responding to analogy drawn ealier of taking out bani equivalent to cutting limbs. That is the only reason, I commented, if you consider it equivalent to cutting limbs than how many limbs Guru nanak cut ?

Also Guru Ravidass Bani, which is in GGS is also existing in various manuscripts which predate GGS and that's where the bani in the new granth has been added from. So this claim that bani is being taken out is not valid. There is no legal implication anyway, even if it is taken out.

Also Satguru Kabir's whole of bani in GGS exists in Kabirpanthi granth Kabir Bijak, which predates GGS. So, not mine but from your analogy, Guru Nanak committed a blasphemy. Now you and I know it is not true but when rationale presented by you is such than why counter is also true?

Bhagats Bani was not added out of respect as you seem to think so. This shows your level of understanding of Sikh religion and it's doctrines.

How Bhagat Bani got in SGGS is not exactly known, Guru Nanak having collected it just an assumption drawn from his wide travels. How the Bani of Bhagats is in Gurmukhi in sggs when most of them had nothing to do with Punjabi is also mystery for which every historian has his own theory. The exact life details of Bhagats esp. Ravidas and Kabir are really not known and depend upon traditional stories. One such story is how the souls of Bhagats came and requested Guru Arjan to include their work in SGGS when he started compiling SGGS, and the party was lead by Kabir not Ravidas.

As for Kabir panthis, their granth is very different from SGGS. There is a wide range of differences between Bijak's content and those of SGGS in vocabulary, spellings, language, overall message etc. Similar and exact are two different things. SGGS is not a cut and paste job as you think so. That is why cuting and pasting of Bhagat Bani cannot be allowed from SGGS.

Can i ask you a question

You quote Kabirpanthis. They have their own Granth which is not similar to SGGS in any way. Why don't you follow them a produce a granth of Bhagat Ravidas and then compare with SGGS? Why the cut and paste job? Didn't Bhagat ravidas leave any Granth behind? Why don't you provide the origins of the manuscripts you are talking about and present their contents here.

apnepart2, to answer your question, even though bijak is not similar as GGS, lot of bani from bijak has been added to GGS. As for providing you the manuscripts for Guru ravidass Ji's bani, I have all the documented information from it but based on your highly uneducated response regarding reasons and mode of inclusion of bhagats bani, I doubt your have the intelligence to appreciate what I would show you. In other words, fools should not be explained and wise need not be explained. I have put you in first category.

Now your mode of inclusion of bhagats bani. Are you telling me that Guru Nanak used to carry bhagat's bani around for no reason and just collected it during travels. This is stupid. Now let me enlighten you a little bit.

Guru Nanak requested bani from bhagats and he used to sing it with bala and mardana and janam sakhis of guru nanak state that (which are even older than GGS). Secondly Guru Arjun Dev Ji didn't get any dreams or anything. He got it compiled and some of the compilers were reluctant to add bahagats bani because of low caste. Guru Arjun dev made it clear that, GGS will not finish without this bani because it was dhur ki bani that Guru Nanak had collected from bhagats. In fact, Guru Nanak said in his teachings "Bhagtan ki bani sachhi bani" i.e bani of bhagats is the true bani. Guru Nanak repeatedly mentioned that he has learnt at the feet of bhagats.

Now as far as gurmukhi is concerned, it was not invented by Bhai Gurdas. It existed before. Guru Ravidass says in his bani a couplet "bed bidh chontis akhar mahain" i.e name of god can't be explained in 34 letters of the language. There was also a litigation in Lahore before independence which proved that gurmukhi as it is called today was started by Guru Ravidass and not Bhai Gurdas. Bhai Gurdas learned it. He was not an inventor of any language. He was user. It doesn't reduce the contribution of Bhai Gurdas though.

Bhagat Ravidas jee was a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev jee. We know this as Mira Bai who lived during the reign of Mughal Emperor Akbar was a disciple of Bhagat Ravidaas jee. Janamsaakhis and 'Tvareek Guru Khalsa' (p. 80) mention that the Bhagats met Guru Nanak Dev Jee. According to the Meharvaan Janamsaakhi, the Bhagats met Guru Nanak Dev jee at Ayodhya. From reading Gurbani, the Bhagats clearly state that they found the True Guru and that received Amrit & Naam from the Satguru, who can only be Satguru Nanak. Therefore, Bhagat Ravidaas jee became a disciple of Guru Nanak Dev jee. A Gurdwara Sahib is constructed in Ayodha in memory of the historic meeting between Guru jee and the Bhagats.

Quote

ਪਰਮ ਪਰਸ ਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੀਐ ਪੂਰਬ ਲਿਖਤ ਲਿਲਾਟ ॥

ਉਨਮਨ ਮਨ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਮਿਲੇ ਛੁਟਕਤ ਬਜਰ ਕਪਾਟ ॥੬॥

"When one's pre-ordained destiny awakens and one meets the True Guru, who is the Supreme Philosopher's Stone, then the inner-soul meets with the Supreme Soul, and the stubborn doors of the mind are opened wide. ||6||"

(Bhagat Ravidaas jee, Ang 346)

Though I copy and pasted the above words from a website but seems pretty much correct...once Bhagat Ravidass realised God, the God chose him to spread holy baani to the world from his mouth...this baani was included in Adi Granth by Guru Arjan Dev ji and it cannot be removed from it... Guru Har rai ji even disowned his son for changing one word of baani to please emperor aurangzeb...so how can this be tolerated when baani of Guru Granth sahib is used to make separate Granth...?

Gurmukhi was not there during the time of Bhagat Ravidass ji...it was scripted by Guru Angad dev ji...second Guru of sikhs...however he did not make an entirely new script rather modified Landa script used here in Punjab only not there where bhagat ji used to live...Landa script and sharda script were transformed to gurmukhi by Guru sahib by removing various shortcomings from it...!

[rollingpunjab]

During his times also, many jatts,khatris asked guruji why you enlisted these low castes? That's when he answered "enhin ke bane hum hain nahin to mo se hazar crore pare" i.e I am made by or I survive through these low castes otherwise there are thousands or crores like me. He himself stated that low castes are his savior. You may know that jatts had deserted guru gobind singh because he couldn't pay them as he had run out of money during war. Guru Gobind Singh being a khatri knew foolishness of jatts very well and that's the reason he addressed Jatts as "Jatt-boot".

Please only criticize my statements after conformation. Guru Gobind Singh was a unique personality who sacrificed his family for a cause and low castes sacrificed their lives for him and his family. What low castes got in return from sikhs? murder and opression.

First of all you had quoted a wrong verse...the verse was "inhi ki kirpa ke saje hum hain, nahin moh se gareeb kror pare"...here guruji is expressing the "mahima" of sangat as a whole not the dalits...he said that he is decorated because of the sangat...never in his compilation he used the word dalit...!

not only jatts, but muslim pathans, khatris and others also deserted guruji on many occassions...but that doesnt mean all those communities as a whole is wrong...or is it...?

now tell what kind off confirmation u need...you dont evenb know the correct quote which you are using for "dalit mahima"...!

[Indysinghj]

Ravidasi followers of ballan dera dont represent all chamar, it only represents the ones that follow that particular dera, all the rest are followers of sikhism and are proud sikhs

[sweetshera]

Ravidasi followers of ballan dera dont represent all chamar, it only represents the ones that follow that particular dera, all the rest are followers of sikhism and are proud sikhs

IndySinghJ - how can you say all chumar are followers of sikhi? Did you know there is more than twice (yes twice!) chumar than sikhs put together? Your logic and knowledge is poor what about the christian, bhuddhist, hindus that are chumar?

Im sorry but I have to disagree, just look at the numbers.

[chatanga]

a bare minority of chamars are sikhs. this has always been the case. the census of india from 1901-1941 will show you that even before Ravidasia religion was even a thought in some one mind, that chamars didnt really think of themselves as Sikhs.