Ravidassiya'S Hating On Sikhs

[SinghWarrior]

Has nobody here heard of the chauth paur?

I haven't.

[Paneer Monster]

i would not be supprised if in some backward villages chamars are denied amrit daan. request to all sangat please check this link. its very sad.

i read once a chamar could not distribute prashaad at sri harimandir sahib - this contributed to the founding of the sgpc. interestingly in more recent years the sgpc has descriminated against ravidassis.

sikhs world wide should make a huge effort to reintegrate chamars back in to sikhi. i have much respect for the ravidassi's that have kept rehat and recite nitnem while most of them flock to christianity.

[genie]

Why would you turn this into a caste thing? You can't label a group for one person's action(s)...

What we should do? Ignore it, that's all there is to it. If you ignore it they will stop on their own. When needed make an educated reply, don't incite more hatred or heat by contributing to negativity.

Chumaar/Dalit is a caste not ravidassiya, the ravidassiya are a sect on margins of hinduism & Sikhism but now claiming they a whole new so called religion. They on youtube have this fued going on with Jatts but are trying to bring the Sikh panth into disrupte by claiming they have a new religion and some of them are posting propaganda against Sikhs with user names like "Sikh terrorist" and video's defaming and mocking Shaheed Sant Bhindranwale. Even though Shaheed Sant bhindranwale did not advocate Khalistan nor discriminated against any caste these people seem to think its ok to produce idiotic videos against his memory.

I have respect for my Chumaar/dalit Sikh brothers they are the foundation of Sikhism and one of the reasons why Khalsa was created. However the so called ravidassiya who are trying to create a new religion even though they cant even ask basic questions regarding their so called new faith are just causing more trouble for the community they claim to represent.

[dalsingh101]

Chumaar/Dalit is a caste not ravidassiya, the ravidassiya are a sect on margins of hinduism & Sikhism but now claiming they a whole new so called religion.

And you don't think them wanting to strike out on their own is at all related to how they have been treated for a long time? Wake up.

They on youtube have this fued going on with Jatts but are trying to bring the Sikh panth into disrupte by claiming they have a new religion and some of them are posting propaganda against Sikhs with user names like "Sikh terrorist" and video's defaming and mocking Shaheed Sant Bhindranwale. Even though Shaheed Sant bhindranwale did not advocate Khalistan nor discriminated against any caste these people seem to think its ok to produce idiotic videos against his memory.

Who is they?

That feud with Jatts has been going on since even before Sikhi came to earth. A part of Sikhi was supposed to involve breaking this feud in favour of brotherhood, but closet casteist who take amrit but still have caste hankaar have perpetuated the problem instead of tackling it. The result is there for all to see.

Besides, I've met PLENTY of 'proIndia Jatt Sikhs' who hate Sant Ji and what they stood for calling them uneducated, pindu and a trouble maker, so this isn't limited to any particular caste. Was you even born when all of this stuff was going? You sound very uninformed about the situation?

Let me treat you like complete rubbish and I'll see if you come running to me. Enough is enough about caste. It is time we deal with it conclusively and stop it weakening us as a quom.

People are faced with a clear choice, either pretend nothing is wrong and let things carry on as they have with increased people leaving the panth and friction between us. Making a tiny minority in India 9yes that is us!) even smaller and even less powerful politically OR: overcome your bias and hate, probably instilled in your family through God knows how many generations and speak the language of inclusiveness, reconciliation, brotherhood/sisterhood and live those words.

We've had the backwardness for long enough now, time for a change. Time to fight to bring our society closer to the beautiful egalitarian ideals it embodies.

In future so much will depend on gaintee or numbers, be this for politics or jungh. If apnay don't stop being small minded and realise this, they are essentially being just another force that weakens us internally.

Show some leadership and intelligence on the matter for God's sake. Don't perpetuate an age old hate - it is time to move on from that.

[GPS]

I am curious though, do you think that this does not take place. Has nobody here heard of the chautha paur?

PS - It is not complete exclusion but from what I understand, so called low castes take amrit from a different bata to higher castes. Hope this clears it up. This isn't to say every last sampardaya does this, but that it takes place.

What you need to do is contact the Akal Takhat and have them look into Chautha Paur practices.

I have read your post carefully. You had written

This has even crept into out most intimate religious practices with the chautha paur which essentially excludes people from the amrit sanchaar ceremony due to their caste.

My query is in regards to that. I have lived in Punjab for a considerable time and visits every now and then.I have never heard what you call Chautha paur.

Can you explain what is that? Where does it take place.

When we go to take Amrit, no one asks for your background, residence, caste etc. Asking such things is to negate the essence of Amrit

Everyone drinks nectar from the same bowl and we are born anew.

Guru Gobind singh knew that to bring equality among sikhs he has to take practical steps.Amrit ceremony was one where all social

barriers were done away with.

Sikhs have demonstrated equality among khalsa brotherhood by appointing Akal takhat jatehdar from one of the so called lowest caste.

That is why i am asking you wherein this exlusiveness take place.This may be an internet gossip.

Chumaar/Dalit is a caste not ravidassiya, the ravidassiya are a sect on margins of hinduism & Sikhism but now claiming they a whole new so called religion

Chamars are mainly confined to Doaba belt of Hoshiarpur and jallandhar district.If you go to Majha area you

will not find them there.There you will find Mazhbi sikhs.

Chamars by and large declare themselves as Hindus in census of India.They can be equivalent of balmikis elsewhere.

Some of them consider some sants as Guru as was the case at vienna. This puts them in altogether a different category.

By doing so they do not quali8fy as sikhs.Let us not mix things up.

[Guest SarabjeetSingh]

Why should we now be surprised if ravidassis hate sikhs ? Just see that video , one user posted . Its about a rural village where main door is not for shudras . I am strongly against caste system . WHY do sikhs say "sikhism does not believe in caste system " and the next insulting word for someone is "chuda or chamar . Ravidassis are now hating sikhs because that is what we have been feeding them for so long now . I hate this fake jatt pride non-sense so much , I dont even have words to describe . Whereas many of people who do kes katal just for going abroad are jatts .

I really never thought a beautiful religion like sikhism and a beautiful kaum like khalsa will have to go through all these .

Sikh girls eloping with muslims , ravidassis hating sikhs , caste system are all our faults .

[GPS]

The background of rift between Sant rama Nand followers and main stream sikhism.

http://frontlinepunj...ing-vienna.html

what-was-real-issue-behing-vienna.html">What was the real issue behind the vienna attack

We are deeply saddened and shocked over the recent incident that took place in Vienna, Austria and subsequent rioting in Punjab, India and our thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends, of everyone who has been affected by this incident.

We would appeal to communities around the world to work together, in harmony to resolve this matter peacefully and uphold the honor of the Guru Granth Sahib. The rioting that has been taking place across Punjab and surrounding areas is causing a detrimental effect, to all the communities residing in Punjab and Worldwide.

Tensions had been building up within the Ravidass community for a number of years, concerning the Ballan Dera (Monestary) and their anti Guru Granth Sahib practices. A few years ago, Sant Rama Nand, leader of the Ballan Dera came to the Ravidass Gurdwara on Grove Lane in Handsworth, Birmingham, UK. He was forced to leave by the majority of the congregation and management committee because the majority of the Ravidass community took objection to the presence of any Dera leader, sitting parallel to the Guru Granth Sahib, the present and perpetual Sikh Guru. A few of Sant Rama Nands followers who were from the Hindu Dalit caste were offended by this.

After this incident the Ravidass Gurdwara in Handsworth mounted a plaque within the Gurdwara, banning any cult leaders from undermining the Guru Granth Sahib, with there ritual worshipping practices. At this time Sant Rama Nand leader of the Ballan Dera hired the hall at the Holyhead School on Holyhead Road, Handsworth to hold a gathering for his followers because the Guru Ravidass Gurdwara congregation and management committee, would not allow the gathering to take place there. Several other Ravidass Gurdwaras across the UK, Canada and USA, also banned Sant Rama Nand from performing his ritual worshipping in the Gurdwaras. Most of the Deras have followers from various backgrounds including some Non Punjabi Bhaiyes and other non Punjabis, the majority of the Dera followers are from the Hindu Dalit caste. Many of the Deras are anti Punjab and anti Punjabi and the Deras encourage there Hindu Dalit caste members to become Ravidass Gurdwara Committee members and mislead the Ravidass community and undermine the Guru Granth Sahib in the process. There was a meeting held at the Dera Sucha Sauda last year with senior Congress party leaders, extremist Hindu party members RSS & Shivsenna, Dera leaders and members of the Boota Mandi Hindu Dalit Syndicate, to attempt to topple the Punjab Government by causing community divisions and rioting across Punjab and in the process bringing mayhem to the region.

It would be difficult for any community to allow cult leaders into there places of worship and allow them to undermine their religious beliefs. Similarly as in the incident in the Vienna Gurdwara, some members of the Ravidass congregation were offended by the anti Guru Granth Sahib practices of the Ballan Dera leaders and this has led to a feud in the Gurdwara, between the congregation, resulting in this terrible tragedy occurring.

Some media reports have suggested that the incident at the Gurdwara in Austria was due to tensions between higher and lower castes. This was clearly incorrect because three of the perpetrators who were arrested by the Police are from the Ravidass community. Within the Sikh community we do not have a caste system, however people from different ethnic backgrounds or regions are referred to as Bradrees. This is different from the Hindu community in which castes exist. Within the Sikh community the bradrees literally mean equality amongst all ethnic groups, therefore although people may be from different ethnic groupings, collectively they make up the Sikh nation and are considered equal, which is different from the Hindu caste system, where people consider different castes to be higher and lower castes.

Other media reports have suggested that the Babbar Khalsa and KZF were responsible for the Vienna incident, however both these groups have denied any involvement with this incident.

The tensions were further escalated when Sukhvinder Singh Sukhi from Akash Radio claimed that the KZF had sent Akash Radio an email, claiming responsibility for the Vienna attacks. KZF deny being behind the attack and also deny sending any emails to this effect, to Akash Radio. Sukhvinder Singh Sukhi should have confirmed the authenticity of the email before spreading this rumour and escalating the tension further. Similarly Ranjit Weekly Editor, Ramdas Chahal who uses a Jat surname to mislead people of his ethnic background, was responsible for inciting communal divisions.

Some members of the Ravidass Cultural Association in Birmingham which has been taken over by the Hindu Dalit caste, who belong to the Deras, so called Buddhist society members and others including President Piara Singh (JP), Lachman Dass Jassi, Raj Kumar Gaddu, Shingaru Ram Suman, Lachman Sheimmar, Ramesh Kaler, Ram Kishan Mehmi, Satpal, Satnam Bilga, Manjit Jassi, Manjinder Kaler, Councillor Chaman Lal, Rajinder Jassi, Sunil Mothada, Gurdial Sandhu, Jaswinder Sashalli, Chaman Lal Chauhan, Balwinder Ballu, Gurdish, Gurprit Bansi, Tarsem Sandhu and many others who claim to be, worshipers of Sant Rama Nand also incited communal divisions in the UK, by arranging and participating in a protest in the UK. Harbans Lal Shonky was the main orchestrater of the communal divisions across the Midlands and was supported by Gurdavinder, Buddhist Society President for Birmingham and the UK Buddhist Society President, Chanan Chahal.

Lachman Dass Jassi, Manjit Jassi, Rajinder Jassi, Ramesh Kaler, Manjinder Kaler, Satnam Bilga, Sunil Mothada, Chaman Lal Chauhan, Gurdial Sandhu, Tarsem Sandhu and Chanan Chahal use Jat surnames (Goth) to mislead people of their ethnic background for personal gain. The Jat community resent their surnames being used by non Jats, however if the individuals are mixed raced Jats then they should declare this.

The rioting that has subsequently occurred in Punjab was not caused by the Ravidass community as has been portrayed by the media, but was caused by thugs who were followers of the Ballan Dera and several other groups and Deras whose main aim was to cause disruption in Punjab. The Deras brainwash there followers, the majority of whom, who are from the Hindu Dalit caste from across India and encourage them to undermine the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib. These groups and Deras include members and followers of the Nirankaris, Noor Mehal Dera Baba Lightanwala (Bhaiya), Baba Ram Rahim (Jat) Sirsewala Dera, Bhaniarawala Dera. The Dera's are supported by members of Hindu fascist groups RSS and Shivsenna and some members of the Congress Party and BSP. Even the weapons that the rioters were using were similar to those weapons that had been used by Hindu fascist and Hindu Dalit rioters across Delhi in 1984 (led by former Congress party MP's, Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar).

It is common knowledge that some of the violence instigators and Deras are funded and promoted by the Congress Party and the Government. People from the Ravidass community, who worship the Guru Granth Sahib, need to be aware of the tactics of some individuals from the Hindu Dalit caste, planted in the Ravidassia community, who work for the Congress Government and are trying to create communal violence throughout Punjab and in the process, give the Ravidass community a bad name. This article aims to name and shame some of the main instigators of communal division.

Furthermore these gutless rioters vented there anger by damaging property and possessions of innocent people, looting clothes, meat and liquor and taking this back to there Deras. If the Government fail to apprehend and bring these rioters to justice, this will clearly result in other communities making a stance to the actions of these rioters, which will result in retaliation and inevitably bloodshed across Punjab and surrounding areas.

These rioters were incited by racist elements of the racist Boota Mandi syndicate in Jalandhar who are followers of the Ballan Dera and Hindu fascists, to bring mayhem across Punjab and were supported by MP Mohinder Kaypee, Congress Party Member in Jalandhar. The inciters included Chaudhary Jagjit, Ex Cabinet Minister, Surinder Mahey, Ex Mayor of Jalandhar, Sukhvinder Kotli, MP Goraya, Tirath Ram Sandhu (Noormehal), Baldev Khaira member of Jilla Prished, Ram Saroop Saroai, Balvinder Ralh, Satpal Virk, Narinder Billa, Balhiar Bilga, Amritpal Bhosale, Harminder KK, Tara Chand Jakhu, Sanjeev Bhosale, Inderjeet Chamdard, Rajinder Kazle, Ashwani Bhatoye, Nirmal Guru, Ram Saroop Chamba, Chander Shekher, Manmohan Raju, BSP leaders Ashok Chandla and P. D. Shant.

Balbir Raja Sodhi, member of the Congress Party was one of the main instigators of communal violence in Phagwara and was supported by another Congress Party MLA, Joginder Mann. In Phagwara, Noormehal, Jalandhar, Phillaur, Goraya, Nawanshahr, Nakodar and several other regions, local residents and business owners from different ethnic backgrounds were forced to confront the rioters when they started to damage property, the rioters were challenged and beaten up in confrontations and they ran into their Deras to hide. In several of these regions across Punjab during the rioting, the local communities had to defend their belongings and property, because the Police failed to take any action against the rioters, as they rampaged through the streets. The rioters were confronted by the local communities who were forced to create groups of Sikhs and Hindus, to defend their belongings and property because of the lack of Police action.

Sukhvinder Kotli, MP Singh Goraya, Tirath Ram Sandhu (Noormehal), Baldev Khaira member of the Jilla Prished, Satpal Virk, Balhiar Bilga, Ram Saroop Saroai, Balbir Raja Sodhi and Joginder Mann all use Jat surnames (Goth) to mislead people of their ethnic background for personal gain. The Jat community resent their surnames being used by non Jats, however if the individuals are mixed raced Jats then they should declare this.

The Indian Government should ensure that the Police apprehend the culprits involved in the rioting and violence in India and ensure that they prosecute the culprits, who were involved in the rioting and those who were inciting them. There are many photographs and video footage of the rioting, which clearly needs to be used as evidence to prosecute the culprits. This will ensure that a clear message is sent out to all the different groups in India, who resort to rioting and violence and cause mayhem across India. If the Indian Government fail to apprehend the rioting culprits, the wider community of North West India will have been let down and resent the Indian Government.

The Punjab Police turn a blind eye towards the rioters and those responsible for instigating the rioters, even though they have sufficient evidence against them, however they continue to arrest innocent law abiding Punjabi-Sikhs and plant evidence on them and charge them with committing terrorist activities.

Recently, Baba Balbir Singh of Lamma Jatpura has been arrested with two Sikhs, apparently caught with RDX and detonators according to IG Sanjiv Kalra. The Punjab Police are renowned for framing Punjabi-Sikhs with RDX, this has been done on many occasions by the Indian government to make people hate Sikhs and think of them as terrorists. Human Riots agencies are continually monitoring and collecting further evidence against corrupt officers in the Punjab Police force, who are responsible for framing innocent Sikhs.

The rioting in Punjab, resembles the rioting that was caused across Delhi in 1984, at that time orchestrated by former Congress Party members, Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar who have links with the culprits named above and Deras and have incited them into causing the recent rioting across Punjab and tension Worldwide.

There have also been certain individuals and groups who have been trying to create communal resentment between the Ravidass and other communities, by claiming that the other communities do not recognise Bhagat Ravidass as a Guru. However there are patent Bhagats from different bradrees who have contributed to the Guru Granth Sahib and they are also recognised by their own bradrees as Bhagats and this is not only the case with Bhagat Ravidass. The other Bhagats include Bhagat Jaidev, Bhagat Namdev, Bhagat Trilochan, Bhagat Parmanand, Bhagat Sadhana, Bhagat Beni, Bhagat Ramanand, Bhagat Dhanna, Bhagat Pipa, Bhagat Sain, Bhagat Kabir, Baba Sheikh Farid, Bhagat Bhikhan, Bhagat Surdas.

Furthermore Shromani Akali Dal Councillor, Balbir Singh Dhillon of Ward No. 11 and his colleagues should not be further harassed by the Punjab Police, for killing a protestor in self defence who was part of a mob that attacked them, otherwise there will be widespread resentment. He should, in fact be awarded for his bravery, for helping to protect his community from the Mob attack.

The Indian Government need to follow the example of the USA Government and not support any sects (dera's) which offend religious beliefs of other worshippers. The Indian Government need to ensure that they apprehend sect leaders who are offending the Guru Granth Sahib worshippers, religious beliefs and practices across India. Similarly there are Dera's which are operating in the UK also funded by extremist Hindu parties, which are also causing communal hatred between communities, by distorting the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib, these Deras include the Nirankaris, Ek Niwas, Sach Khand Nanak Dham.

It is disgraceful for Indian Politicians to have arranged and attended the funeral of a Dera leader, who had offended the religious sentiments of worshippers of the Guru Granth Sahib, across the world. Racist Maya Wati, Chief Minister of Utter Pardesh who also attended the funeral is responsible for creating communal tensions across Punjab.

The Government have now appointed S R Laddhar Commissioner of Jalandhar, to head the inquiry into the incidents that occurred across Punjab, however S R Laddhar who also uses a Jat name for personal gain, will be biased as he will discriminate against the Punjabi community, there should be an independent enquiry held by an independent body.

Sant Baba Nirmal Dass of the Raipur Rasulpur Dera, made an official statement to the Ravidass and wider communities to clarify to the Ravidass communnity that one Dera cannot make a decision instructing the Ravidass community to stop worshiping the Guru Granth Sahib. Nobody has the right to instruct worshippers not to follow the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib and furthermore he stated that people from the Ravidassia community are worshippers of the Guru Granth Sahib.

There are many Hindu Dalits who have now embedded themselves in Ravidass Gurdwaras and are urging the Gurdwara Management of which they are part, to stop worshipping the Guru Granth Sahib and to remove the Guru Granth Sahib from the Gurdwaras. This is contrary to what the Gurdwara congregation have donated money to the Gurdwaras over the years for. The money donated by the Guru Granth Sahib worshippers has been used by these Hindu Dalit led Gurdwaras, to fund unlawful activities of Deras and in the process, misusing money donated by the Ravidass community, to spread the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib.

Article By :

Organisations based in the Western Hemisphere, Congress Party, Lok Balai Party, Shromani Akali Dal, Ravidass Sikh Forum, Ramgarhia Sikh Forum, Bhatrai Sikh Forum, Jat Civil Rights Forum and Global Sher-e-Punjab (not linked to the criminal gangs referring to themselves as the Shere Punjab in Birmingham & London).

Posted by we need freedom at 08:29

[dalsingh101]

So are you essentially saying no discrimination takes places with so-called low caste Sikhs then? Because I've lived in Panjab periodically too and the way they were looked down on and generally treated as lesser beings was a norm.

Did you not see the video I posted if you want direct evidence?

I have to ask, are you covering up the caste based discrimination that takes place as an every day norm? Whatever truth there may be to that long article you posted, are you denying that so-called low caste Sikhs get discriminated against by so called high caste Sikhs all the time!

Because if you are, you have an agenda because I've seen that stuff going on all the time, including, shamefully from my own family.

So whilst some people may be happy to play political games and cover up this disgraceful behaviour by our own, I'm not.

Like I said, people have to choose sides eventually. Either you want to try and strive for a truly egalitarian Sikh society or you want to carry on justifying oppression for a petty agenda.

We need to grow not make more enemies.

[GPS]

Dal singh101]

You keep on avoiding my query.

My query to you is on your statement about Amrit sanchar wherein you stated that low caste sikhs are administered amrit from a different bowl.

This is very serious matter and if it is happening we need to know where and make an effort to stop this.

Read my earlier post. Can you provide refrence

My question is specific to your note about Amrit ceremony wherein you wrote that low catse

are excluded from Amrit ceremony.

Can you provide us the refrence here? Please do not generalise as this is very serious issue.

dalsingh101 wrote

Did you not see the video I posted if you want direct evidence?

That video has nothing to do with amrit sanchar wherein low caste sikhs are excluded.

This video has often been posted on other forums for propaganda purposes by those

who do not subscribe to concept of supermacy of Sri guru Granth sahib ji as our Guru eternal

especially in aftermath of Sant rama Nand incident at Vienna.

I am looking for refrence for your statement on low caste sikhs being excluded from Amrit ceremony.

This is very serious issue, if true, and we need to make an effort to bring awareness against this practice.

[dalsingh101]

You keep on avoiding my query.

My query to you is on your statement about Amrit sanchar wherein you stated that low caste sikhs are administered amrit from a different bowl.

This is very serious matter and if it is happening we need to know where and make an effort to stop this.

Read my earlier post. Can you provide refrence

To clarify what I said before. No I have no documentable evidence for this but the people mentioning these things to me don't seem to have any reason to lie about it. That being said, I acknowledge your point that we cannot discount that it may be a misunderstanding or a lie.

I don't know why you are waiting for a reference when I told you the evidence for this was anecdotal at this stage. You are right in that I need to get more direct evidence of this and will seek to do so for the future and present it to the wider sangat. If I find no evidence then I will state as much.

That video has nothing to do with amrit sanchar wherein low caste sikhs are excluded.

This video has often been posted on other forums for propaganda purposes by those

who do not subscribe to concept of supermacy of Sri guru Granth sahib ji as our Guru eternal

especially in aftermath of Sant rama Nand incident at Vienna.

The release of that video predates that incident at Vienna by about 2 years, so it is hard to accept the notion that it is some sort of propaganda for that. The film was released in 2007 and the Vienna incident took place in 2009. Besides, limiting the whole debate about caste in the panth to the Vienna incident is wrong, that just conveniently hides a world of other evils. So whilst there may be those who have an agenda against Sikhs like you mention, there are 'Sikhs' themselves who have a hidden agenda to keep and propagate caste within the panth. I'm asking you straight up - Are you one of them?

I am looking for refrence for your statement on low caste sikhs being excluded from Amrit ceremony.

Again, this is not what I said, but that certain people were administering separate Amrit between certain castes and lower or outcastes. Read my statement above - I will try and find conclusive evidence for this or otherwise.

That all being said, there is absolutely no excuse for the crap taking place in our community under the banner of jaat paat, so please be careful not to deflect from this. We must deal with this now.