Guru Nanak sahib at Mecca

[UKLondonSikh]

what about Panja Sahib ji etc where their is clearly a hand print and other Gurdwaras with foot prints water appeared and horse prints and furnaces cooled instantly, do we disregard those events to and say no miracles occured ?

UK = Sat Paji the biggest miracle is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. We don't need to copy miracles that the Christians, Hindu's and Muslims have done a pretty good job of concocting as it drags down Sikhi to the same level. I mean these faiths have virgin births, half-elephant half-human gods, Muhammad splitting the Moon into two when he flew up there on a white horse. The fact that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is Sikhi's greatest miracle is what marks it out as the Truth.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji metaphorically stopped the rock with his Panja. It's not meant to be taken literally.

Sarcasm :blush2:

UK = Mod Paji that was funny ... but TamilNadu Advanced Teacher Training Institute was funnier :-)

UK = But let's examing the rock story. So supposedly this Muslim Pir Wali Qandahari (aka Hasan Abdal) throws down a 3,000kg plus boulder to try kill Bhai Mardana Ji. That's one strong weightlifting Pir! It's a miracle the Muslim Pir supposedly threw such a heavy rock. Oddly enough the massive boulder alleged to have been thrown only a few centuries ago has already melded in perfectly with the ancient rock formation.

UK = As you know Sri Panja Sahib was first instituted by Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa less than 200 years ago when this rock Sakhi was not so popular amongst true Gursikhs. Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa built Sri Panja Sahib to commemorate the fact Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and Bhai Mardana went through Hasan Abdal and Bhai Mardana Ji survived an attack on his life. The Muslim Pir despised Bhai Mardana Ji for being a Sikh (and hence an apostate of Islam - as the Quran states that the punishment for leaving Islam is death) and also the Pir hated Bhai Mardana Ji for being what the Muslim Pir thought was a low caste. The Muslim Pir ordered that Bhai Mardana be stoned to death for such a transgression as ditching Islam and even threw rocks at Bhai Mardana Ji and Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

UK = Given the spring where there is water and fish was an ancient bathing site and hand prints can be found in caves throughout the world - it does not mean that the handprint at Hasan Abdal is Guru Sahib's.

UK = We shouldn't need this handprint miracle to confirm Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's greatness to us. Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa would never forgive the Panth for holding such anti-Gurmat beliefs. It is also telling that the Gujjar and Jatt Muslim population of Hasan Abdal have their own story regarding it.

[Pappi9]

This is what missionary cult think about not only Baba sri Chand ji but also our Guru sahibans.

These people are topping list of our enemies. Never to be trusted. It is time akal takhat wake up

and show them the door as they are eroding sikhi from inside. They are all old school communists

in sikh garb.

well said veerji ....... BUT see the way they are doing parchar ........in punjab almost in all historical gurudwara, they distribute free books and books for kids as well.....

once i went into one on this stall and they forcibly gave me two books ( one for kid )....before giving to kid ...i read it ......and its was all garbage ...

they were teaching in kids book that ...dere's no shaheed singhs , no need of jot in gurudwara , no need of naam simran so on and on ( just image this stuff they are giving to kids)

[GPS]

UK = Sat Paji the biggest miracle is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. We don't need to copy miracles that the Christians, Hindu's and Muslims have done a pretty good job of concocting as it drags down Sikhi to the same level. I mean these faiths have virgin births, half-elephant half-human gods, Muhammad splitting the Moon into two when he flew up there on a white horse. The fact that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is Sikhi's greatest miracle is what marks it out as the Truth.

UK = Mod Paji that was funny ... but TamilNadu Advanced Teacher Training Institute was funnier :-)

UK = But let's examing the rock story. So supposedly this Muslim Pir Wali Qandahari (aka Hasan Abdal) throws down a 3,000kg plus boulder to try kill Bhai Mardana Ji. That's one strong weightlifting Pir! It's a miracle the Muslim Pir supposedly threw such a heavy rock. Oddly enough the massive boulder alleged to have been thrown only a few centuries ago has already melded in perfectly with the ancient rock formation.

UK = As you know Sri Panja Sahib was first instituted by Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa less than 200 years ago when this rock Sakhi was not so popular amongst true Gursikhs. Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa built Sri Panja Sahib to commemorate the fact Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and Bhai Mardana went through Hasan Abdal and Bhai Mardana Ji survived an attack on his life. The Muslim Pir despised Bhai Mardana Ji for being a Sikh (and hence an apostate of Islam - as the Quran states that the punishment for leaving Islam is death) and also the Pir hated Bhai Mardana Ji for being what the Muslim Pir thought was a low caste. The Muslim Pir ordered that Bhai Mardana be stoned to death for such a transgression as ditching Islam and even threw rocks at Bhai Mardana Ji and Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

UK = Given the spring where there is water and fish was an ancient bathing site and hand prints can be found in caves throughout the world - it does not mean that the handprint at Hasan Abdal is Guru Sahib's.

UK = We shouldn't need this handprint miracle to confirm Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's greatness to us. Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa would never forgive the Panth for holding such anti-Gurmat beliefs. It is also telling that the Gujjar and Jatt Muslim population of Hasan Abdal have their own story regarding it.

Stick to the topic on hand here and do not run from one subject to another. You people also do not believe in Guru Granth sahib also.It is a show only.How do you claim to believe in SGGS ji when you do not follow its teachings. You do not believe in Karma and have failed to understand karma per sikh philosophy.How do you claim to follow SGGS ji. It is all written there.

well said veerji ....... BUT see the way they are doing parchar ........in punjab almost in all historical gurudwara, they distribute free books and books for kids as well.....

once i went into one on this stall and they forcibly gave me two books ( one for kid )....before giving to kid ...i read it ......and its was all garbage ...

they were teaching in kids book that ...dere's no shaheed singhs , no need of jot in gurudwara , no need of naam simran so on and on ( just image this stuff they are giving to kids)

I am at a loss to understand why SGPC does not ban their book stalls in Gurudwara sahib. They had done it previously and why did they allowed them again.They have nothing in common with sikhism.

[UKLondonSikh]

The fact is that cult of missionaries have no respect for our Guru sahibans. They think they are gone then why to give any importance to them.

In another thread this gurdeep johal shamelessly writes that Guru nanak could not turn head of his son Sri chand.How did he turn Mecca.

UK = Paji every Sikh on the planet has love for our Guru Sahib. The pro-Gurmat camp are arguing that not enough importance is given to Gurmat whereas Hindu Devi Devta's, and miracles as other faiths have made popular are being falsely introduced into Sikhi and given importance whilst Guru Sahib's core message is being ignored.

UK = As far as i believe, Gurdeep Paji (though he could have expressed it better) did not malign Guru Sahib but was making the point that if Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj chose Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj (because Bhai Lehna Ji understand Gurmat better than Sri Chand) then why would Guru Sahib rotate Mecca to prove what is already blatantly true - namely that there is no direction in which God does not exist.

Jachak jagtar said why people go to Hazur sahib as it is a grave of a dead person.

UK = Paji this is a gross-misrepresentation of the pro-Gurmat position. Giani Jagtar Singh Khalsa (Jachak) has merely stated that the Khalsa Panth, Vaisakhi 1699 and Sri Anandpur Sahib is what Sikhs in Punjab should focus on spiritually rather than spending money on yathra's (like followers of other faiths) to travel thousands of miles south to Sri Hazur Sahib - where there is parallel parkash going on of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj with what was called, in its totality, Bachittar Natak (until Khem Bedi - Amitabh Bachchan's ancestor - decided to call it DG around a 100 years ago to help his Arya Samaj friends in demeaning our Guru Sahib)

This is their pet word metaphorical. They may not be knowing its meaning also.

Their idol is harjinder dilgeer who says there were no chali muktas.

UK = Paji if words were taken literally then many would interpret Ram as meaning Ram Chander rather than one God as Guru Sahib meant. Laxmi, Kaal etc have pretty literal meanings as well of course :-) Paji i wholeheartedly believe in the greatness of our Chaali Mukte. The only academic debate I understand some academics have quarrelled over is the names of the blessed forty. Paji, if i can respectfully say, you are I'm sure aware that Dera Congress Ballan are trying to take 3million Sikhs out of the Panth before the 2021 census. You are aware that the so-called high caste Muslim Khan's and Hindu Hill Raja's despise our Qaum because Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj gave control of the Sikh Fauj to Shaheed Baba Sangat Singh Ji of the Chaali Mukte (who the Muslims and Hindu's always despised for being from a leatherworking family) ... so if you were to concentrate on joining people to the Sikh Panth rather than ejecting people like Gurdeep Paji (who is your brother in the Panth from Bhajan Lal's area) wouldn't we able to achieve more as a United Qaum (rather than worrying about if some Amritdhari GurSikhs dare to deny anti-Gurmat miracles)

[GPS]

UK = Paji every Sikh on the planet has love for our Guru Sahib. The pro-Gurmat are arguing that not enough importance is given to Gurmat whereas Hindu Devi Devta's, and miracles as other faiths have made popular are being falsely introduced into Sikhi and given importance whilst Guru Sahib's core message is being ignored.

UK = As far as i believe, Gurdeep Paji (though he could have expressed it better) did not malign Guru Sahib but was making the point that if Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj chose Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj (because Bhai Lehna Ji understand Gurmat better than Sri Chand) then why would Guru Sahib rotate Mecca to prove what is already blatantly true - namely that there is no direction in which God does not exist.

So called missionary cult whom you call pro gurmat has not understood core message of Guru Granth sahib themselves. They denounce meditation or Naam simran which is core message and never practically do it.

These people are cheats as they are afraid to state things clearly.They say we have Guru granth sahib and Guru sahibs lives has no significance.That is the reason they spread lies about their life events.

UK = Paji this is a gross-misrepresentation of the pro-Gurmat position. Giani Jagtar Singh Khalsa (Jachak) has merely stated that the Khalsa Panth, Vaisakhi 1699 and Sri Anandpur is what Sikhs in Punjab should focus on spiritually rather than spending money on yathra's (like followers of other faiths) to travel thousands of miles south to Sri Hazur Sahib - where there is parallel parkash going on of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj with what was called, in its totality, Bachittar Natak (until Khem Bedi - Amitabh Bachchan ancestor decided to call it DG around a 100 years ago to help his Arya Samaj friends in demeaning our Guru Sahib)

Please do not lie.He said this and is a notorious liar. Do you know he wanted to become head granthi of Harmandir sahib a few years back.One of the conditions of becoming head granthi of harmandir sahib is that he applicant has to give in writing that he knows how to do katha of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.This man has given that undertaking. Sikhs were concerned that a snake will always bite even though he seems innocent.His missionary agenda deprived him of that position.Ask him if it is correct or not. Especially one has to give written undertaking to do katha of Dasam granth and suraj parkash.

Parkash of Dasam Granth was on all takhats. SGPC removed its parkash from akal takhat in 1944 but takhats not under their control did not do that beadbi as it is bani of Dasam pita. Do not spoil this thread and if you want to discuss Dasam Granth , start a new thread.

And your jachak also says that damdami beer was not written at Damdama sahib

[UKLondonSikh]

GPS = At one place you write that Mardana became a sikh. But Guru sahib buried him with his own hands with muslim rites.

UK = Paji i'm sorry but what you have stated above is wrong. Bhai Mardana Ji was a Sikh. The Mughals only came out with such anti-Sikh propaganda when Jehangir realised that Muslims were becoming Guru de Sikh in their thousands. Hence they started to push the lie that Bhai Mardana Ji died a Muslim - which is an absolute lie. As you know, the punishment that Muhammad created for leaving Islam was that ex-Muslims be killed. With so many brave Muslims becoming part of the Sikh Panth this represented an extreme threat to the Islamic Empire's existence. Guru Sahib liberated the poor and instituted Langar. So it is highly ridiculous for any of us to think that Bhai Mardana would have any faith in a rich Slaveowner like Prophet Muhammad who even sold children for financial profit so that he could afford his 13 wives and multiple slavegirls. Bhai Mardana lived as the foremost Sikh within Guru Sahib's life and died as a Sikh.

GPS = He remained muslim till his death.he went to Mecca with Guru sahib so that he becomes a haji.

UK = Paji when Bhai Mardana Ji was a Sikh, why would he bother to go on Hajj in order to enrich the Qureshi (Arab Brahmin caste which ate the profits from pilgrims coming to Mecca). Guru Sahib condemned pilgrimages and Bhai Mardana as a true Guru ka Sikh accompanied Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj on their travels purely for the task of spreading Gurmat for the purpose of Sarbat Dha Bhalla. The Hajj story is yet another story falsely introduced by anti-Sikh forces (not your good self - I'm referring to the Mughals) in order to try and weaken Sikhi.

UK = Paji please remember that it's not about destroying Sikh history - it's about authenticating Sikh history so that it actually tallies with Gurmat, rather than inadvertently innocent Sikhs spreading the agenda's of the Muslims or the RSS+Sena because of innocent shardha. But whatever our viewpoints about history or certain miracles we cannot exclude other Amritdhari GurSikhs from the Panth when we all share the more important agenda of ridding Punjab of illiteracy, inadequate healthcare, female infanticide, drugs, alcohol and biraderi discrimination. Even though I contest your points when i strongly disagree with you, Paji let's try to unitedly push the building of new schools and assistance for the gareeb members of the Panth as our Panth's United response to the acquittal of Sajjan Kumar whilst Bhai Rajoana and Professor Bhullar languish on death row for no crimes whatsoever.

[GPS]

UK = Paji i'm sorry but what you have stated above is wrong. Bhai Mardana Ji was a Sikh. The Mughals only came out with such anti-Sikh propaganda when Jehangir realised that Muslims were becoming Guru de Sikh in their thousands. Hence they started to push the lie that Bhai Mardana Ji died a Muslim - which is an absolute lie.

As you know, the punishment that Muhammad created for leaving Islam was that ex-Muslims be killed. With so many brave Muslims becoming part of the Sikh Panth this represented the most dangerous to the Islamic Empire's existence. Guru Sahib liberated the poor and instituted Langar. So it is highly ridiculous for any of us to think that Bhai Mardana would have any faith in a rich Slaveowner like Prophet Muhammad who even sold children for financial profit. Bhai Mardana lived as the foremost Sikh within Guru Sahib's life and died as a Sikh.

UK = Paji when Bhai Mardana Ji was a Sikh why would he bother to go on Hajj in order to enrich the Qureshi (Arab Brahmin caste which ate the profits from pilgrims coming to Mecca). Guru Sahib condemned pilgrimages and Bhai Mardana as a true Guru ka Sikh accompanied Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj on their travels purely for the task of spreading Gurmat for the purpose of Sarbat Dha Bhalla. The Hajj story is yet another story falsely introduced by anti-Sikh forces (not your good self - I'm referring to the Mughals) in order to try and weaken Sikhi.

UK = Paji please remember that it's not about destroying Sikh history - it's about authenticating Sikh history so that it actually tallies with Gurmat, rather than inadvertently innocent Sikhs spreading the agenda's of the Muslims or the RSS+Sena because of innocent shardha. But whatever our viewpoints about history or certain miracles we cannot exclude other Amritdhari GurSikhs from the Panth when we all share the more important agenda of ridding Punjab of illiteracy, inadequate healthcare, female infanticide, drugs, alcohol and biraderi discrimination. Even though I contest your points when i strongly disagree with you Paji let's try to push the building of new schools and assistance for the gareeb members of the Panth as our United response to the acquittal of Sajjan Kumar whilst Bhai Rajoana and Professor Bhullar languish on death row for no crimes whatsoever.

Guru nanak sahib was above such thinking that he will convert Mardana ji. He was a rebabi and become his companion.His grave is still there at baghdad.

After reaching India Guru sahib went to his home and brought his son shahzada to be his rebabi. His offspring is still in pakistan following islam. Do not bring Guru sahib to such level. He was above such thinking.

Panth has capacity to fight tyranny and they are doing it for victims of 1984.Where are your missionaries like dhundha, inder ghagha, Jeonwala, darshan ragi, at this juncture. Of course they are busy spreading propaganda against sikhi ideals.

UK = Paji when Bhai Mardana Ji was a Sikh why would he bother to go on Hajj in order to enrich the Qureshi (Arab Brahmin caste which ate the profits from pilgrims coming to Mecca). Guru Sahib condemned pilgrimages

So you are telling us now that per you Guru sahib did not go to Mecca. I am not surprised as Mcleod says samething

[UKLondonSikh]

GPS = Guru nanak sahib was above such thinking that he will convert Mardana ji.

UK = Paji, Bhai Mardana Ji as the great and famous Sikh that he was had voluntarily accepted that Sikhi was the Truth.

UK = Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj never looked to convert anybody in an Islamic manner via the sword or for personal benefit.

UK = In fact the high caste Muslims of Punjab ridiculed Guru Nanak for having a so-called low caste as his first disciple.

GPS = He was a rebabi and become his companion.

UK = Paji i don't believe that correctly ascribes the level of respect we should have for the most prominent Guru da Sikh - Bhai Mardana Ji - in Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's life.

GPS = After reaching India Guru sahib went to his home and brought his son shahzada to be his rebabi. His offspring is still in pakistan following islam.

UK = Paji those crooks in Pakistan today that claim they are descendents of Bhai Mardana do so in order to make money off gullible Sikhs as they are aware that many within the Panth have swallowed such anti-Sikh Mughal propaganda hook, line and sinker. Bhai Mardana Ji's son that you talk of was a Sikh and even part of Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj's Sangat.

GPS = Where are your missionaries like dhundha, inder ghagha, Jeonwala, darshan ragi, at this juncture. Of course they are busy spreading propaganda against sikhi ideals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQrHRUw7CHM

UK = Paji from the above you can see that the Panth is totally United and we need even more Unity.

UK = The more people we have united under Nishaan Sahib the better. VJKK VJKF

[sat]

UK = Sat Paji the biggest miracle is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. We don't need to copy miracles that the Christians, Hindu's and Muslims have done a pretty good job of concocting as it drags down Sikhi to the same level. I mean these faiths have virgin births, half-elephant half-human gods, Muhammad splitting the Moon into two when he flew up there on a white horse. The fact that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is Sikhi's greatest miracle is what marks it out as the Truth.

You have missed my point paji if these miracles did not take place are all our holly places i.e panja sahib etc false is that what you or others are saying because if you do not accept the hand mark in the rock then you are saying

a- it never happened so false

b- if it never happened then someone has made this all up.

No one is trying to copy anyone or any religion why should we!

I am not arguing with anyone, we are all entitled to our views and i have mine which i will stick with, Guru Nanak Dev ji was waheguru ji in sargun roop and could and did preform miracles and he did so in his other 9 forms, how many are people gonna reject. If they do then fine not going to change my mind.

[GPS]

UKlondonsikh

You are posting a short clip of dhunhda of march 2012. What is the purpose of it.

Listen what they are saying here especially about Naam simran