Disabled People - Sikh Channel Programme

[simran345]

There was a programme on Sikh Channel last night, I didn't get to record it, so can't put on the bit I want to.

I don't agree with a comment made by one of the guests who basically belittled disabled people in my view.

I can't remember the exact words, but basically it was along the lines of if there are 4 or 5 children in a family and the father gives all but one something, then the child that's not given it should accept it that they are not meant to receive it.

This to me is very very narrow mindedness and trying to make out because of peoples karam and accepting that they should not have something due to their karm is not a good comparison.

[simran345]

Some Gurdwaras don't even have lifts to Darbar Sahib, so if a disabled person wants just darshan of Maharaj ji, they are not able to even from outside.

It's not as if wheelchair users go regularly, I know from my own experience, disabled people do not ask for anything but understanding or anything extra to be a disturbance to others. But there is no equality at some Gurdwaras or provisions at all, even at the back just to participate with Sangat. That is not equality. Then you get people using Rehat Maryada as an excuse, just because they do not want to work on a solution to this.

There are many disabled people who respect Rehat Maryada, and do not wish to do beadbi and the guest had no idea about compassion, but instead it felt like was putting all disabled people under one description making out they do 'zid' beadbi in so many words.

There are Gurdwaras that can afford to provide for disabled people so they also can participate in Sangat. But they would rather spend Sangat money elsewhere. Disabled people don't ask for anything extra to normal people's right to what they are denied. I have never seen a wheelchair at the front of Darbar Sahib. And I think some are over exaggerating the issue.

The Gurdwaras that cannot afford to, or because of listed building issues, then it's understandable.

What's wrong with providing an area at the back? This way wheelchairs would not go into Darbar Sahib. When I was using my wheelchair, I wouldn't even think of taking it into Darbar Sahib, because of dirty wheels and it's not a good idea to manoeuvre it on chadarah.

What normally happens is wheelchair users are left in the langar hall.

I think until somebody is that position they will never understand what it's like to be segragrated.

I think Rehat Maryada is not the real issue here. I think people are worried the Gurdwaras don't get packed with wheelchairs that may cause a disturbance to able bodied Sangat. But this should be worked on, and there should be a balanced solution for both able bodied and disabled Sangat. And probably the reality of Sangat would be too much deal with.

[Guest Jacfsing2]

I agree with you, every person should have darshan of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I think we could easily make it an equal arrangement, probably providing them with clean wheelchairs instead so it doesn't effect the carpet. (Penji just so you know if a gurdwara is saying building funds they usually mean Anand Karaj rooms).

[simran345]

I agree with you, every person should have darshan of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I think we could easily make it an equal arrangement, probably providing them with clean wheelchairs instead so it doesn't effect the carpet. (Penji just so you know if a gurdwara is saying building funds they usually mean Anand Karaj rooms).

Yes every person, regardless of caste, age, race and disability should be allowed darshan of Maharaj ji.

Do those that oppose it even realise how humiliating this is to disabled people? To me this is just as same as saying to somebody they can not be part of sangat due to a certain caste.

I'm aware what building funds are used for Paji. Building funds of sangats donations are not just for Anand Karaj rooms.

Then you get ignorant people saying, "Oh in the Gurus times, they didn't allow wheelchairs". Also they didn't have carpets, or thaals, or toilets, or even disabled access or cars getting to and from the Gurdwaras, like a caller that phoned in to say.

If there is disabled access to get into the Gurdwara, then why isn't there any provision for them to be part of the sangat? What's the point of that then, so they can use the toilets and shove them in the langar hall?

If somebody with a disability was graced by seeing any of the Gurus, I'm confident in saying they would not have been discriminated against or denied to if they were on a cart or carried to them.

We should be encouraging disabled people to attend Gurdwara, and be confident to be independent as much as they can, and not discourage them or to stay at home alone.

I had to wait 3years to have darshan of Maharaj ji, when I relied on my wheelchair more than now. And that's not because I went to the Gurdwara, that's only because I was lucky enough to be graced by Waheguru that on a Nagar Kirtan, it just so happened the route went past near to our house. So I had darshan of them from afar.

Just think how many people do not even get that chance.

" (Penji just so you know if a gurdwara is saying building funds they usually mean Anand Karaj rooms). "

That's because that's where they are making money from it. Building funds means funds used for building construction for the public. It's because they don't want to and won't get any profit from it, so instead they do the cheapest and easiest thing of the disabled access only and say it's disabled needs are covered.

[simran345]

The solution is quite simple but nobody can be bothered to think of it.

All that is needed is a wooden, vinyl or marble floor at the back of Darbar Sahib, which can be allocated to wheelchair users. It doesn't take up a lot of room either, and the relatives can sit next to them, if need be either on the floor or mat besides them, if it's too cold to sit on the floor, whilst everybody else on carpet. This way the wheelchairs would not need to go over the carpet and one can matha tek and do darshan of Maharaj ji from there. This is better than being totally segregated from sangat or behind screens. Also this way, no beadbi will be done, and every Gurdwara should have the same rule regarding this. So you see where the carpet ends, the wheelchair area carries on, thus all sangat one level. And the wheelchair is never higher than Maharaj ji any ways. They will always be on a higher platform.

[jkvlondon]

The solution is quite simple but nobody can be bothered to think of it.

All that is needed is a wooden, vinyl or marble floor at the back of Darbar Sahib, which can be allocated to wheelchair users. It doesn't take up a lot of room either, and the relatives can sit next to them, if need be either on the floor or mat besides them, if it's too cold to sit on the floor, whilst everybody else on carpet. This way the wheelchairs would not need to go over the carpet and one can matha tek and do darshan of Maharaj ji from there. This is better than being totally segregated from sangat or behind screens. Also this way, no beadbi will be done, and every Gurdwara should have the same rule regarding this. So you see where the carpet ends, the wheelchair area carries on, thus all sangat one level. And the wheelchair is never higher than Maharaj ji any ways. They will always be on a higher platform.

there should be access lifts directly behind the darbar hall even can be mounted on outside of older buildings , also extra screens and speakers should be mounted so that sangat can hear and see clearly from seating area at back of darbar . We should be bringing gurdwarey up to Code i.e. access friendly to all areas .

[simran345]

there should be access lifts directly behind the darbar hall even can be mounted on outside of older buildings , also extra screens and speakers should be mounted so that sangat can hear and see clearly from seating area at back of darbar . We should be bringing gurdwarey up to Code i.e. access friendly to all areas .

I agree with this too, but sometimes it's not as easy done as said, as depends upon the building structure and the available space.

For example in some houses it is not possible to put in stair lifts, so somebody I know had to have theirs fitted through the ceiling of the living room in order to get upstairs in her wheelchair. Alternative solutions can be made, wherever possible though.

Yes some bigger Gurdwaras are very busy at times, and those at the back cannot see or hear much, so maybe additional screens and speakers for those at the back.

[InderjitS]

All new buildings have to comply to strict regulations and ensure disabled access is mandatory, including lifts (where necessary). There is nothing stopping the committees managing older buildings, from placing a ramp at or near the entrance so that if the hall is upstairs and a lift is not viable, the person in question can at least enjoy listening to Gurbani. In this case, a feed from the darbar to a TV in the lower hall is better than nothing at all.

[simran345]

All new buildings have to comply to strict regulations and ensure disabled access is mandatory, including lifts (where necessary). There is nothing stopping the committees managing older buildings, from placing a ramp at or near the entrance so that if the hall is upstairs and a lift is not viable, the person in question can at least enjoy listening to Gurbani. In this case, a feed from the darbar to a TV in the lower hall is better than nothing at all.

Hanji I was thinking this too, where it is totally impossible to get to Darbar Sahib for disabled or reduced mobility people, a feed from the Darbar Sahib to the lower hall or even langar hall, so they can still engage in Gurbani and Kirtan, especially those doing seva too.