Leaderboard

That is classic ! I am a being , lol. You might go outside and commit suicide, it will save us the pain of having you on this forum and you since are a being you can go on to become non-being. It wouldnt matter. lol bloody hypocrite and Liar ! And it is absurd that you are studying the naxalite movement in Punjab?? Do you have a weak heart or are you afraid to see the bull standing in front of its nose? Go to the areas where it is alive and happening. Please spare us the agony of another 'foreign movement' on our soil. Agriculture existed in Punjab but the money was taken to Delhi. When Sikhs came onto the scene, those who worked only they reaped the rewards, and not some alien power thousands of miles away or their puppets . and thanks for admitting that your ancestoral grandmothers provided comfort to Muslim rulers of Punjab. Mine didnt ! No wonder ! I am not surprised. Basically its time waste with you. Some people are dim witted. BTW this quote "From the very beginning he was the deadly enemy of Mughals." is taken from Muslim Rule in India by VD Mahajan. It is taught in Graduate schools in India in History classes. It is the same book which says that Guru Tegh Bahadur was a looter and was executed for plundering people of Punjab. It also says Guru Nanak was saint poet and his knowledge about Vedas was superficial (typical hindu propaganda) . However it fails to mention that despite having powerful armies that defeated the Mughal regiments for the first time in India and shattered the aura of Mughal invincibility in India, Guru Har Gobind did not establish any rule over people of any type and that the Sikhs took up arms because they were not ready to take bullsh1t from anyone.

Good reply apnapart2

Excuse me? Wow the disscussion about Punjab was resonable but you have NO RIGHT to say anything wrong about our Guru. How can you have the audacity to come on a Sikh forum and badmouth our Guru? Now I fully understand your tactics. Spread hate against a religion on their website. Wow people like you have nothing other to do except make fools out of themselves and disrespect other religons. And he failed horribly? No Guru Ji did not fail horribly, the khalsa raj was intact until the British took over after Maharaja Ranjit Singh. So then How did Guru Hargobind Ji fail in his attempt? Read up on history before you come up on a forum and disrespect members and more importantly their Guru. You give respect to Guru Nanak Dev Ji but fail to understand that the light of Guru Nanak Dev Ji was in Guru Hargobind Ji. If you didn't want to get into this then maybe you shouldn't have mentioned it. And for your statement about going off of personal experiences, personal experiences are the common man's thoughts. But no people like you will just go off of the Government records. Does anyone go out to listen to the common man and his problems? And when they are stated, it is hard to accept them. This thread needs to be closed because it is just leading to Beadbi by an ignorant person ruining a normal conversation. If you noticed, you are the only one arguing on this whole thread for stupid reasons.

Why would you use '- Now looking at a simple wikipedia article on your guru .... Can i ask what is your religious belief? Since you are barking for right perspectives and honest opinion, dont run away from this question with lame excuses. (Can the Admin check the IP and confirm he is not a troll or sock puppet ?) About Ram Rahim there were numerous cases he was facing particularly regarding rape of his female followers before he got mired in controversy with Sikhs. He is a very small fish by the way, certainly not as big as he or the media would like you to believe. And now it seems he is without political patronage as well. And i wont comment on your knowledge about History of Punjab. If it wasnt for Sikhs you would be crowing like a crow atop a tower five times a day and your beautiful sister or cousin would be in some mullahs bed. And did you use the term 'agriculture'? DYK it was a Sikh general who gave shape to what agriculture is today in Punjab. Punjab abolished Zamindari system long before rest of India did, the gap is a few hundered years though! Also list the 'local born and bred' rulers of Punjab who contributed to its prosperity in the past millenium. Theres not a single non-Sikh!!

Andrew latti bro, First you need to study history of punjab from unbiased source. Students from India or the one who studied there are influenced by indian school of thought. If you studied in India or in Punjab, how often did you read about Sham Singh Attariwala or Hari Singh Nalwa or Bhai Randhir Singh who spent 17 yrs in jail for freedom??.. NONE Point me one book or even a single page of any high school syllabus (whether cbse, icse, punjab board) where proper credit is given to right ppl ??? Gross injustice for sikhs in punjab and to punjabis as well. Read "Anandpur Sahib" resolution and most of the stuff in there is not only for betterment of Sikhs but for PUNJABIS general. Did you care to read how federal/central government snatch away water/farm resources from Punjab (the only economic backbone of punjab)? Only Punjab is the state where natural resources are being in control of delhi.. Is that Sikh Issue? Why only sikhs seek this justice? Did you ever see other punjabi (non-sikh) asking for this right? Talking about Education System.. Punjab is now ranked 2nd last from the bottom. There were time when education system of Punjab was ranked top position in south east asia. Now bro, don't tell me that i am stuck with old school thought and be open minded. There is no way that Sikhs of Punjab are at or below 60% (you may have got that figure from wikipedia or other "indian" census bureau). Most of the Punjabis from rural area do not participate in census of any kind. Read how punjabi speaking rights was taken away from punjab and haryana was created. Tell me why Hindu Punjabis declared their mother language in 60's as "Hindi" when in fact they only know to speak/write/hear Punjabi. That betrayal created another partition of punjab. Study sikh rule under Maharaja Ranjit Singh who was the only king/ruler that treated everyone equal. Sikhs are not backward, greedy and selfish type ppl, WE know how to run things in most modern liberal yet conservative fashion.

Well I am also talking from experience and not just making things up. I dont want to reveal personal info but right now, my whole family, grandparents are fighting cases for their property which has been taken from them by a rich judge through fraud. If the government really cares for the properties and liberties of the citizens then the corrupt people on high posts with money won't be harrassing innocent public. This man needs to be taken out of office but no one is helping them and its been years. And I am pretty sure my family is not the only one who has to struggle with their properties. Religion being brought down to streets? Ram Rahim is your example? He is nothing but a government puppet. This is another example of corruption and power. This man has had many cases on him, murder, rape etc. but he always gets out scot free. Why? Because he has power in the Government. And when I say that religion and state cannot be seperated is by focusing solely on religious beliefs. The Akal Takht Sahib was created by our Guru Ji to put Miri and Piri together. A form of organized government for the Sikhs. "Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sabh Dalle Malle Hain" even Guru Gobind Singh Ji has linked government with religion. I have no means of hurting anyone's sentiments but looking at how democracy is in Punjab, it clearly isn't working. Not just Punjab, all over India. But then again, if Government and Religion gets mixed in the existence of wrong people, it may just turn into Taliban rule. So it goes both ways. Anyways what I'm trying to say is that you can't say that the Government in Punjab is not corrupt at all and that its not messing with the common man. But then again, I am just a foolish Sikh, I might not have my facts right but I am just speaking solely on personal experiences. Oh and I personally don't believe that religion is being mixed with politics, its politics, bringing religion into their campaigns etc. and exploiting it to meet their own needs. If religion had controlled politics, then Punjab would have been waay different. Bhul Chuk Maaf

i have Question For sarabjit? Why Do you wait till the beadbi to happen then speak out about it? u claim that you was an eye wittness at bow road beadbi when they brought maharaj ji in a car boot while you stood there doing nothing. then cry about it after wud.. why did you wait till you got band form sevenking gurdwara to make an issue about it. why why you just wana become a leader, you just want to become an pardan of sevenkings, at seven king gurdwara evey year beadbi happen there langar are sold to make money etc..... but u dont do anything about it..... why is it when election gona take place you sarabjit and naujawan sabha decide to wake up. plus naujawan sabha is only one family, who him self want to become the pardan. phul chuk maha.

There's been an overwhelming amount of leafleting going on in East London, some from Sarbjit Singh, some from the current Gurdwara Committee and others from anonoymous sources. They are all finding dirt on each other and the problem is that its got to a point that sangat locally are confused on who's telling the truth and who's lieing. Some of the stuff appears to be communicated in a chinese whispers way. My personal belief is that Sarbjit Singh's claims are likely to be true. I don't know him too well, but from what I have seen of him he is a genuine Gurdwara sewadar who get's on with real sewa. He's not a showman and I don't believe would have a hidden agenda. The only problem with this is that he is likely to be played by other cleverer parties who will push him forward as a fall guy.....It's not a coincidence that all this stuff is coming out around election time...

Thinking about it....looking what the voting powers did in Grays...! Imagine if more gurmat thinking people voted then the right activities would be performed by the committees... I know for a fact that the voting turnout at the Gurdwara elections will mainly be family and friends of the wannabe prabhandaks who are clever enough to strategically use them to get voted in... U find that the people who say they want change in the Gurdwaras rarely put themselves forward to implement change or never register themselves to vote for change...In the East London Singh Sabha elections any Sikh over 18 living in a postcode in Newham, Redbridge, Waltham Forest, Barking & Dagenham and Rainham can vote. Thats a pretty massive area and what u find is only around 1500 Sikhs actually vote in East London Singh Sabha elections when in fact East London has a significant portion of the estimated 700,000 Legal Sikhs living in UK (estimated at 15% which makes the East London Sikh population around 100,000) Gursikh youth are ready to turn up to one-off beadbi issues, but not yet willing to sacrifice their daily lives in ensuring a Gurdwara is run with Gurmat in mind....Few Gursikh youth put themselves forward to stand in these elections....That's the turning point.... Because until that happens you will get idiots sitting on the pardaans chair voting for meat and sharab to be served on the complex and other stupid anti-sikh decisions being made....

These comments can be classed as nothing but a moan and give no personal commitment to change.....It's back to the culture of finger pointing, passing the buck onto others and blaming others....simply shouting BEADBI doesn't influence change in the way things are done.... In real terms the blame for the misuse for Gurdwaras is collective and the responsiblity lies with each person who calls themselves Sikh...and if we truly desire change then we should have a presence in these gurdwaras promoting the right activities a guru ghar should be promoting....isolating ourselves and not associating with mainstream Gurdwaras where manmat sometimes takes places doesn't impact anything.... You can call it turning a blind eye or you can call it a gurdwara takeover by getting the right activities to take place in the gurdwara.... Believe it or not...the alleged goings on of a committee are not always as transparent as you may believe...they can easily cover up what they are doing...and the problem with Sarabjit Singh is that his previous vocal tact in different Gurdwaras in Ilford has left him being classified by some as hot headed, unfortunatly he's already been banned from Karamsar and now Singh Sabha.....therefore committees are conveniently able to get away with claiming that Sarabjit Singh is a troublemaker....so the problem is that Sarabjit Singh's claims are perhaps not taken as seriously as they should be by the local sangat. As per the East London grapevine and Sarabjit Singh the committee of Singh Sabha have allegedly done some anti-sikh things. If these things happened then there's no denying that those commtee wala are accountable....but until you change the individuals running the show you got little chance of the full truth coming out and more importantly little chance of more Gurmat activities taking place in the Gurdwara....

I dont have any religious beliefs beside that I am a being. I am not a troll or anything, but working on a thesis related to Naxalite movement in Punjab. So I though why not check the environment of punjab/Sikhs on a forum. Historically we've all had our sisters and mothers in bed if you want to look from such perspective. Even if the Sikhs were not to protect anyone, we might have been muslims, so what? Hasn't a lot changed from indus valley until today. Well great that zamindari system was abolished by a Sikh long before. I just used the term agriculture to bring my point forward and not put sikhs down. All though a sikh might have been able to abolished the zamindari system, but agriculture has existed in punjab for thousands of years. Its nothing new. I dont understand what your point is?

WJKK WJKF, I have dealings with Giani's and Granthi's on a daily basis due to their visa problems and have made the following observations and just want to know everybody's views on the subject: 1). I have never seen a single Giani or Granthi till date who has been issued with a single wage slip. Forget a P60....not even one wage slip...i have dealt with over 300 applications. Gurdwaras dont even pay their National Insurance contributions for their own employee. These are not just the small Gurdwara's but even the big ones. 2). The majority of them are brought over from India on visas the conditions of which state they will abide by National Minumum wage, however upon getting here the Giani's NI is not paid by the employer and no wage slip or P60 is issued to a Giani. 3). The common practice is to say that the Gurdwara provides free food and accomodation to the Giani as part of his salary package. From my knowledge langar is free to everybody (unless Giani's get special dishes which i doubt). As for accomodation the Gurdwara also benefits as it gets a full time employee guarding the premises. 4). From my personal experience many Giani's dont even get paid more than £80 per week (i have seen some on £40 per week). Out of this the Giani is expected to maintain himself and his wife and children back home. Try feeding a family of 4 on £80 per week. 5). Many people complain that Giani's who come from India work elsewhere and do other jobs. I would suggest the reason for this is the low wages given to them. If they got minimum wage they would not need to work elsewhere. 6). Unfortunately i have also seen many cases of where these Giani's have actually been charged in India by some committee members in order to get a visa. I was once sat in the British High Commission in New Delhi and personally saw 4 Jatha sitting there waiting to apply. After they all got refused they came to me for advice and it turned out none of them were Ragi's at all. In fact they had agreed to pay the Pardhaan of a Gurdwara 8 lakh rupees for each visa (roughly £10,000). One of the applicants bechara had been told for the last year to grow a beard and "learn some path" by the Pardhaan. I have a witness to this event as seated next to me was the owner of a famous UK based punjabi radio station. Even he was shocked. My points are 2 fold: Firstly we complain about the quality of Giani's and Granthi's however nobody has ever exposed the situation or fought for the rights of them (i recently did a show on Sukh Sagar Radio about this and exposed a few home truths). How are we expected to get top quality employees in any field if we are unwilling to pay them the appropriate salaries (forget expected salaries they dont even get minumum wage). What actually is happening is akin to bonded labour where a Giani is promised to be made permanent in the UK in return for ignoring his basic employee rights. Secondly we complain about many things however how come nobody complains about the immigration fraud openly carried out by the Gurdwara committees over the years? Where has all of this money charged from potential Giani's to come to the UK gone? In order to sponsor a Giani letterheads of Gurdwaras have been openly misused. The Same letterheads contain quotes from the Gurbani on them. The Gurdwara has become a source of earning money from potential immigrants. If anybody was expected to survive in the UK on £60 a week and bring up a family and work full time then surely any person would look for alternative employment. However the Giani's cant even do that because they are tied down to their Gurdwara for up to 5 years. Please note i am not saying that all Gurdwaras engage in these practices but the majority of the ones i have seen have done in the past and these include some big Gurdwara's. I may be worng in my points however i only comment on my own experiences and dealings with Giani's and Gurdwaras. I would love to hear what Gurdwara committees actually have to say on this issue.

Insert "Britain"/"America"/"Canada" etc. for Punjab in your sentence and that's exactly what was being said when Sikhs were migrating abroad, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

so you placed all 3 million muslims of england in a 8 minute "paki gang related" video....Cool!! get your head out of your <banned word filter activated> and try to understand circumstances and situations before coming to lame solutions.

Sikhs are not 80% of the population anymore. They are 60 percent and the hindus are around 35%. What sort of problem would a state have with a religious community? Ohhh geeze the same religious people who block roads for foolish reasons. I think its time to separate Sikhism from Punjab, in a sense that religion should have no power whatsoever over Punjab's economic and political affairs. The central govt.'s job is to keep up with the status quo, not to be enemies of any particular group. To make any progress the state knows what is best for the citizens because they have various intelligent economics and political scientists working for them, whereas religious goons are amplifying the problems by blocking roads and doing other foolish things. I am not saying that Sikhs should have no voice, but they need to know that the state is in power not a religious group. Its a democracy, not a theocracy. Whether Sikhs are the majority does not mean they can do whatever they consider right and suppress the rest of the population with their so called "religious duties". So if state has a problem with Sikhs, then the state has a problem with Sikhs, not with Punjab. These are two independent entities separable from each other, but connected only with a historical incorporeality. I am going to have to completely agree with the migrant workers being hired over the punjabi workers. But i also disagree with your land and citizen rights of those migrant workers. Every migrant worker has the right to arrive in a capitalist system and work hard to achieve the best. It is state's duty to protect the rights of every citizen whether they are from another part of the country and these migrants have the full right to vote and buy property if they are part of the labor force in punjab. Now the concern is whether the money they are earning is being sent to their home state, then an action can be taken and high taxes can be appended to their earnings with other clauses which will coerce them to adopt to a new home by adhering to all laws the punjabis are under. I believe my uncle has a lot of land in uttar pradesh and although he has experienced discrimination doesn't give us the right to discriminate other human beings, especially those who are not in any way are directly connected with the perpetrators in other states. Corporations are very much greedy, no wonder cities in punjab are being turn in to a new mode of labor force. One of the biggest problems for the govt. to tax corporations(even in the United States) is the fear of unemployment. The corporation can stop building anytime they are faced with a problem from the state and move their plans to another state, and in order to keep the corporations and the job flux in consistency the state must do everything they can to keep the big guys. Our punjabis are so egotistic that they are not willing to work like bhaiyas and especially people with village backgrounds are very lazy now days. I feel the bhaiyas deserve the best and the state is well aware with the need of migrant workers in punjab. I feel the govt. should hit the common man because for so long people have been hiding under the bed and not paying their shares of taxes and its time that everyone who is working should pay the right amount and of course the corp. must pay tax, more tax that is.

Yes, I've lived and studied in jalandhar for almost 7 years. I also visit punjab every other year with my father. The past means nothing and although the state system might be corrupted but in lesser degree when compared to the past. My cousin goes to panjab university, chandigarh studying law and I can assure you that his background is not of elite class, yet he has been receiving the same attention as anyone else so far. When I say, the state knows best, what I mean is the elected government which can be re-elected therefore eliminating corruption gradually. Money and your faculties are and should be the major factor in determining your status or position in a society. No one wants this, but I wasn't the one asking for a capitalist economy tagged along with democracy. Are you kidding me? Any minor incident that the Sikh community or any community in Punjab feels has hurt their cultural or religious sentiments, first thing they do is take it to the streets. Vandalizing public property and ingraining fear into rest of the population who are trying to live in peace. I can count several events on my finger tips, such as the recent death of the Baba in austria and the dalit community took it to the streets, and the various incidents related to baba raamrahim. How could people come to such viciousness? asking for justice and taking to the streets is two different acts which produces two different scenarios. justice is through legal matters(surely there are circumstances when one needs to begin a revolution), like a civilized society does, you know in the foreign countries you, me and others live in. Sorry, I don't mean to attack you personally but were you joking with that statement? Have you not studied the history of punjab, the history of India, the history of all south asia. There is no way on earth that Sikhism created the ground punjab is on. It is a dream that religious folks tend to rely upon even in the United States(christians thinking America was created on the grounds of christianity, hahaha). I cant waste my time to give you history lessons, that is why we have books for cheap on abebooks.com or simply goto a local university and sit through lectures and then maybe, just maybe you might learn something about the history of Punjab or India matter of fact.

LOL Experience is limited, so lets not base our whole conversation on experiences. Cases like your own family's case are very common not just in punjab, but in the entire country, where an elite member of the society covet another's personal property and I dont doubt that the government is doing whatever they can in order to bring justice. Like I said getting rid of corruption is a gradual process and it will take time. If I am aware Ram rahim never had a register complaint before the Sikh attacks in official "language". There might've been rumors about him committing rape or murder, but hurting the sentiments of Sikhs was his first case. correct me if I am wrong. Is that not narrow minded now when you focus solely on religious beliefs? Lets look at the history of Akal Takht Sahib and try to see the connection it had during the 17th century with the mughal empire. Now looking at a simple wikipedia article on your guru, it states in the beginning "From the very beginning he was the deadly enemy of Mughals." Even if it was me, I would have come up with a same institution in order to protect my property and my subjects. Please this guy was no guru, although a very smart man who had an ambition to built his own empire, but failed horribly. After Guru Nanak Dev jee, sikhism became just "another" religion and it was hijacked by all those who made fools out of people for the purpose of self-perpetuating. Anyway lets not get into this but capitalism and democracy are working fine so far in punjab, in fact punjab is better then it was ever before, looking at government statistics. LINK The only need in punjab is now to bring agrarian reform to boost farming techniques in order to produce more food. Heavy production of food is money and good investment for the state. Read up on things if you want prosperity in Punjab. Get out of the religious mind and open yourself to other things if you really want to help punjab. Change is through education and education is POWER. I am assuming you are still young, may be in high school and that is alright. But dont hesitate to change your viewpoints when needed.