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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh _/\_ "see him as a threat" ya man!!! that is true and I don't think any of them likeme anyway. "chatanga" i was a giani at this Gurdwara abt 16 yrs ago and the Sikh Naujawan Academy is not base in this Gurdwara, wedo camp and youth prog all around midlands and mostly at south Birmingham and west Bromwich Gurdwara but I do stay in Dudley "Dudley Singh" I want to clarify only 2 issue, we need to be truthful here…. To my best knowledge 1) Jasbir Singh Rai is NOT (drinking amrithari), he doest NOT drink man . even though he does not like me but the truth is the truth. 2) Darshan Singh is NOT amithardhiso how can he be "pakandi amithardhiDarshan" Sorry if I offended any of you. Giani Sukha Singh

God doesn't make deals. Your promise had no bearing. Your chances to get into that college have not changed. Stop worrying :-)

Sikhi isnt as black and white as people like to have it these days.... what brother Five is unable to understand is that during the times of our shaheeds, the oppression and tyranny was in the form of a government which physically imposed their the death. In the case of this monk it was again the Government of the time which caused a situation aroun the Monks death tyrannous, dont forget most of our shaheeds if not all had options, the option to convert and avoid death but no they "chose" death rather than converting. Transpose that very idea to this Monks situation, didnt the monk also "choose" deatht than to carry on taking the abuse the Diem regime imposed on southern vietnamese monks? Fair enough there was no jalaad there but his situation was the jalaad. He knew that in his self immolation the world would rise up and bring an end to the oppression of Buddhists, which it did. Therefore his act is not suicide. If his self immolation was for the betterment of his qaum then he is a shaheed. Suicide by your definition is "willingly giving yp your life" , didnt Sahib Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji Maharaj "willingly give up his life" for Hindus? Maharaj's shaheedi is mahaaan param mahaan, no one can compare anyones shaheedi to our Satgurus as they are Gods incarnated light on earth. But to belittle a shaheed such as this monk is ghor paap. SUICIDE IS WHEN A PERSON LOOSES ALL HOPE AND REFUSES TO GO ON, BECAUSE HE/SHE HASNT THE MENTAL OR PHYSICAL STRENGTH. THIS MONK DIDNT LOOSE HOPE INFACT HE HAD HOPE, HOPE IN THAT HIS "SACRIFICE" WILL BRING ABOUT CHANGE. THIS MONK HAD THE MENTAL AND PHYSICAL STRENGTH TO GO AHEAD WITH THE ACT WHEREAS MOST PEOPLE WOULD TAKE EASY ROUTE SUCH AS SLEEPING PILL OVERDOSE ETC TO INDUCE AND EASY PAINLESS DEATH.

Look at how the whole thing started. Look at user BSSF, signature. He is outright disrespecting Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa and Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji. And this user, represent, the BSSF crew. 1kaur1, is pointing out this disrepect coming from him. And yet you guys are blaming 1kaur1 for disrespecting them. She has a right to speak her mind, on what she thinks of this cult. And it's not like she's going on no facts. Just read the signature of this cult and you'll understand where her disgust toward this group is coming from. Lastly, it's not just her who is disgusted at their actions.

Paji with all due respect if you listen to katha of this prasang by mahapurakh they say that the sword was not able to cut maahraj's sees; maharaj themselves disjoined their head from their deh and it fell into the sevaks hands. Maharaj ji willingly gave up their sees. Another example although in a different context is when Bhai Gurmukh Singh ji Audeesa jumped into the fire where Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh ji'd antam sanskaar was happening, out of pyaar.

Came Across This:

Vaaheguroo Jee Kaa Khaalsaa, Vaaheguroo Jee Kee Fathe! I found out yesterday that cows are injected with hormones which make the cows THINK that they are pregnant so they produce more milk, and that's the milk we drink... So my question is, (and it may sound extreme to some people), but should we as Gursikhs be drinking milk that has been derived from a cow in such a manner? Isn't it wrong because it's basically not natural any more? The only place you can really get pure milk is by living in India and owning your own cow, and I'm not thinking of doing that any time soon whatsoever... or ever for that matter lol Lookin forward to your comments. Vaaheguroo Jee Kaa Khaalsaa, Vaaheguroo Jee Kee Fathe!

perhaps sangat should start investing in farmland instead of building huge new expensive gurdwaras in the uk. We could then keep our own cows and also grow our own crops for langar. Just an idea for the future perhaps.

When we have a society where punjabi / desi girls think sleeping with other girls is normal and do it openly on things like facebook and in clubs, how can anyone find nothing shocking no more? The western society is so messed up that it is giving islamists an easy route to multiple and in the future with enough demographics change society by voting in an islamic party that forms the government and implements islamic sharia law. We are sleep walking into disaster due to leaders, parents and majority of people these days having no foresight for future but living for the present indulging in hedonistic filth ruining their bodies, their mind and the panth.

Very well stated. Dal khalsa india chief is with darshan ragi and attended his function three days back. such people are not trustworthy.

Sikh political groups are not trust-able and they only believe in Akal Takht Sahib in writing only. Example; Dal Khalsa groups (UK, USA, India) are big supporters of ex-sikh Darshan ragi; gurmatas/hukam came out of akal takht sahib to disconnect ragi links/friendship but UK and India group didn't do it.. Whether one agree with what ragi did or not, thats not the point but the point is where they stand on their words when they say "We stand under Akal Takht Banner"... This is one example to show how punjabiat pendu style working of mostly all groups/organization. Do not support anyone unless you want to waste your time and energy. Work with non-profit but non-political groups such as united sikhs etc...

BHAI RASAL SINGH JI, ELDER BROTHER OF JATHEDAR SUKHDEV SINGH BABBAR PASSES AWAY ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਵਾਰਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਚਲਿਆ ॥: Left - Bhai Rasal Singh Ji during the 1970's, Right - Bhai Sahib in a Recent Photo. DASUWAL, PUNJAB (KP) - Bhai Rasal Singh Ji, the elder brother of Shaheed Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar and Bhai Mehal Singh Babbar, passed away peacefully in his sleep on January 2nd, 2010, at home in his ancestral village. Bhai Rasal Singh Ji, hailing from the village of Dasuwal, district Amritsar, lived the life of a true rehatvan GurSikh and endured many hardships during the 1980s and 1990s when police atrocities in Punjab were at a height. Along with his brother Jathedar Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Bhai Rasal Singh Ji's young son, Bhai Amrik Singh was also killed by the Indian police in 1992. Decades later, several police cases have still remained pending against Bhai Sahib – illustrating his continued persecution by the Punjab Police even at this ripe age. Despite being in his seventies and suffering so many losses, Bhai Sahib remained in Chardi-Kala, and steadfast in the iron discipline that true Singhs are known for. Bhai Rasal Singh always dressed in the Khalsa banna, cooked and prepared his own food, and kept strict 'Sarbloh Bibek' until his last breath. Bhai Kesar Singh Chibber, who documented the life of the Sikhs in the 1700s, describes the Rehat-Behat of such GurSikhs in BansavaleeNama : ਪਰ ਤਿਸ ਸਮੇਂ ਸਿਖ ਆਹੇ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਰਹਿਤਵਾਨ। ਪੰਜ ਪੰਜ ਸੱਤ ਸੱਤ ਦਿਨ ਭੁਖੇ ਰਹਿਨ ਪਰ ਐਲਾ ਮੈਲਾ ਧਾਨੁ ਨ ਖਾਨ। ਤਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਤਪ ਕਰਿ ਤੁਰਕਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਨਾਸੁ। ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਤਪ ਭਜਨ ਸੀਸ ਦੇਣੇ ਕਰਿ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਹੋਣਾ ਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸੁ ।੫੪। (ਬੰਸਾਵਲੀਨਾਮਾ) Rare are Gursikhs such as Bhai Rasal Singh Ji, and those described above who are blessed with such determination and discipline. Antim Ardaas and services in memory of Bhai Rasal Singh Ji are scheduled to be held at village Dasuwal on January 11th, 2010.

By creating random groups you yourselves are dividing the panth, whats the need for some youth group when the Khalsa is already there? What other group could you possibly require? Is Maharajs panth not good enough that everyone needs to make their own lil groups?? Also as everyone is entitled to their opinion why is 1kAuR1 and Only five being attacked? There is no requirement to vindicate our belief. Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji apni laadli fauj nu chardi kala bakshe! Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale nu chardi kala wich rakey!

Southall joker sorry southall youth calm down. I do feel that going to parliament wont help. I dont like the BSSF signature or other similar ones. I started the topic because being a southall youth I had never heard of BSSF ever. And from my second post I made my feelings clear. Everyone is entitled to post which they have but seriously whats it to you if i posted or whatever else your problem is. Bottom line the question has been answered. I wont be posting again but your all welcome to continue.

My original post was not a firestarter. I just wanted to know if BSSF are an AK47 spin off as they associate with Dal Khalsa and SAD. I got my answer. I do agree that BSSF have responded amicably, whereas other forum members have gotten a little hot under the collar. You have the option not to post. The issue about attending parliament. I have on several occasions met with MPs and they dont actuallly care. They will not interfere in another democracy or deal with old issues. But good luck none the less. Again everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and I am entitled to mine which I have put across as diplomatically as possible.

There is nothing wrong with believing Sant Jarnail Singh is Shaheed. People look at Bhai Randhir Singh as a Gurmukh but dont agree with everything he said e.g keski, ragmala I don't see why people cant think of Sant Baba Tahkur Singh ji as a Gurmukh but not agree with everything he said. I like to believe Sant ji is in Chardikala and will return, but i keep an open mind on it. What i would like to know from you is when will Sant ji return? If he doesn't return then what? Will you simply say its "hukam" to bail yourself out from embarrassment ?

Nice to see you back here. Where have you been hiding jk lol. If BSSF want to go to parliament thats there business, i'm quiet on it. I'm not for it and neither am I against it. I learned through Sikhi that its the reason behind the act that counts for more (Guru Sahib wants from his Sikh) than the act itself. This topic of BSSF resulted because they chose to go against Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa. I know you don't believe they did, but let me write, what I already wrote on a different thread, that was closed. Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa put his trust in Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji. Sant ji told the Singhs that were with him and the Khalsa Panth that i put my trust in Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji, by saying follow every thing Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji says. Now the BSSF is going against Sant ji by not trusting the words of Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji. If they had put their trust and respected Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa, they would not put Shaheed infront of Sant ji's name because Sant ji said trust Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji's words. But this group, doesn't mind insulting Sant ji in one side of the mouth and then saying we respect him with the other side of the mouth. It's clear to me and others that have caught on to their game that, they are playing games by using Santji's name. Think about it, Santji a soul that is divine put his trust in Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji, without any doubt, then that amounts to everything regarding Sant ji. Santji told the Khalsa Panth Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji words is my word. Here is an example (i'm not comparing Sant ji to the Gurus, but the transfer of divine level fits). When Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj made Bhai Lehna ji, Satguru Sri Guru Angad Dev ji Maharaj Guru, did our second Guru lose respect from the Sikhs who followed Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj? Let's make it more specific, did Baba Buddha ji say no i'm not accepting your decision Satguru? Baba Buddha ji had total respect, faith, trust, love, devotion, etc for Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj and bowed to Satguru Sri Guru Angad Dev ji Maharaj. I bet this BSSF crew have read what Sri Sukhmani Sahib ji says about Sants, but they don't follow that teaching. Instead they attach Sant to Santji's name for the fact of games. This goes for everyone that calls Santji shaheed. Pick a side, either Sant ji is a Sant or just Jarnail Singh ji, no one can sit in the middle and play games, like BSSF is.

Yes absolutely 100% correct bang on. But can we honestly say there isnt a organisation on earth that doesnt doesnt have those same two things said about it?? I couldnt think of any man-made organisation on earth that doesnt have those two very same factors being perpetuated about them simultaneously. 1) An organisation being Good. 2) It being a sellout/tainted I thought about it and thats the conclusion i came to. Most organisations i can think of have supporters of both camps. Thats just human nature. For every organisation there will be supporters and those who have doubts. Try it yourself, think about it.

My battery is also dead. It need oxygen all the time to be alive. My oxygen pipe is also cracked from everywhere and the new one is on it's way from eBay. Only $10. You can order batteries from eBay too like 9 cell batteries are really good and long lasting. This would make Ur Singhni toshiba new bride. You shud take care of her. Just love and buy her new things and she won't commit suicide again.

Das Amritpal Singh, having a healthy debate does not divide the panth, it brings us closer together. Its something that our UK elders rarely managed to do. My final 2 cents. I do not agree with the signature of Sant Ji used by BSSF or their views on Sant Ji, and as I do not agree with them on that particular issue, I will not be attending the Sant Ji Shahidee Smagam they are organising. As I do agree with them on making the British Parliament aware of Sikh genocide, I will be attending the lobby on Thursday. Guys, the issue here is important then the organisations involved. If the lobby on Thursday is a resounding success, it will be a victory for the panth, not for BSSF or me or any other organisation involved. Bul Chuk Maaf

I think ive been misinterpreted. I attend 84 rallys each year and have great respect for the shaheeds. Ive been supporting these events longer than BSSF have been around. Just by not supporting one set of groups doesnt mean I am denying sikh genocide. I do affilliate with groups that have a strong backbone and history. Groups that are panthic and have world renowned fame for there efforts. But rather than making stronger what already exists people with hidden agendas form 'their' own groups. Which now seems anti panthic?

Good on you Aman0001! But Asa Di Vaar states- Moorakh naal na lujiye which translates to dont mix with fools. Frankly the views of the group seem to be of a low intellectual standard or undeveloped if you like. Also the groups that they affilliate with are known for corrupt and two faced behaviour. So best of luck to you all.

Guys this is the same old story, we can go on forever wasting our time by cursing this pretend granthi. The fact is like many others before him, he probably pretended to be a granthi in order to get a visa to this country and eventually become a resident, at which point he would have quit his granthi job never to be seen in a Gurdwara again. Its simply a means to an end. Why not try resolving the primary issue here? The fact is there are no controls and regulations around becoming a granthi. Literally any tom, d1ck or harry can pretend to be a granthi, all they need is a turban, long beard and the basics of Sikhi. When you have no controls around who becomes a granthi, it leads to poor quality granthis being recruited at Gurdwaras along with passport hunters. For more detailed analysis and views please read the following:- http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/57848-sikh-giani-recruitment-model-vs-muslim-cleric-recruitment-model/page__p__479821__hl__%2Bgiani+%2Brecruitment+%2Bmod__fromsearch__1#entry479821

Do not put so much faith into your father. He is a human being just like the many billions in the world. He can make mistakes like the rest of us. If you feel your father has proven to be a poor role model or misguided you, then that is not your fault. Ultimately you aren't accountable for his deeds - even if you feel he is responsible for some of the activities you've been "encouraged" to do. At least now you are realising the truth of this whole matter, and you wish to do something about it. You've realised what you've been directed to do by your father is utterly wrong. That's a good start isn't it? Be brave. I understand about respecting one's parents, but if you feel something is amiss then you have every right to speak out. A man must make his own way in life at one time or another. Always looking for approval or permission from parents is sometimes not the best thing to do, especially when the parent or parents aren't shining paragons of virtue themselves - or if one suspects they have questionable judgement. Apologies if you think I'm taking shots at your parents - I'm honestly not. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

Seeing as you asked, I'll be frank. Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that there's no return from having a relationship with a Muslim (carnal relations, etc). Apologies if this is not the case in your instance. Its something I read in one of the later volumes of 'The History of The Sikhs' by Max Arthur MacAuliffe. I'm not sure whether its a sandesh that has been enforced in the modern era. I don't see why it should be reiterated once Guru Ji has uttered it. His word is final.

I suppose so. Also, I'm not labelling all our girls in this way, in case a bibi takes offence. In this country, there is an emerging trend of our girls prefering white men for long-term relationships, and Muslims being chosen for quick flings at uni or school. Back in Panjab, our girls seemed to have made a habit of forming illicit relationships with their mamma's or bhua's son. This is another major issue our community is in denial about in a huge way. I use to think it was just fiendish gossip from busy-bodies, but having heard first-hand of such relationships from friends and relatives - and also having direct experience of such shenanigans (as an observer) - I can say this is another problem that our community is facing. However, I don't reckon its an issue that has come to the surface as of yet. I give it a few more years. Anyway, I digress.

my definition of shaheeds?? they are the panths shaheeds....not mine...i hope you burn in narak for disrespecting the shaheeds of the khalsa panth....secondly we didnt get khalistan because we lost support from the sikh kaum...primarily due to the black cats...and our people not knowing the difference between a singh and a cat...clealry you kow nothing about the movement and nothing about shahadat....this is not difference of opinion this is difference of ideology....the sikh kaums definition of shaheedi is getting cut piece by piece and still wanting to fight in the battlefield in support of truth justice and righteousness...it seems to me bhuddist form of shaheedi is burning yourself....you claim the monks shaheedi brought success in that he gained media attention to the conflict in vietnam...i assure you america did not care for one monbk burning himself....america left because of the sheer determination of the NVA and vietcong forces trying to unite their country.....tyrants are not swayed by self immolation!!...i would like to see this monk brun himself infront of hitler and the nazis...they would probably laugh...because their job got a whole lot easier... are you comparing the khalsa to mullahs trying to blow up a statue?...its easy to run your mouth behind a computer screen!

What's the appeal of girls from a Sikh heritage going off with Muslim lads? I don't understand the need. There's enough clean-shaven, gelled hair, gym-going heroes in our own faith, if thats what these kind of girls are attracted to these days. Is it the danger of the forbidden and taboo? Is it a genuine romance (as impalpable as it may sound)? Or is it - supposedly - the practicing of certain nefarious dark arts by the Muslim to snare a girl for conversion? We all know why the Muslims do it, but why do our girls fall for it?

Thanks for the info...but I wouldnt come or support because of the difference in views and your affiliation with other groups.

Why are you distorting Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj Shaheedi? Maharaj stepped on the hot plate because thats what his punshment was for not obeying to the worldly rulers at that time. And you comparing Maharaj shaheedi to a person, where no worldly ruler forced him to burn himself. The difference from Maharaj and this monk is that Maharaj was forced onto the hot plate and the monk willingly commited suicide. You can't even compare the two. I don't know who Baba Bir Singh is so if you want explain his shaheedi, if you can call it that. He choose to burn himself. No one forced it on him. Patience would be to go infront of the current rulers and say the truth. Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj demostrated this through Babar's actions. The problem is not with new youth order, but your faulty reasoning. I can easily turn this around and say the Sikhawareness crew need a reality check on their new twisted youth order. So keep the insults to yourself. Does the state he is in really matter? The definition of suicide is clear. What this monk did is, suicide. The fact you are commenting on his state is laughable and then equating this guys suicide to Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj Shaheedi is insulting. I know his disciple is pouring the gasoline on him and that's why its called assisted suicide. No one has the right to take their life according to Sikhi. If someone else takes it by force, that is a different thing. Say the countries law forced their punishment on him, like they did to Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj then he would be called a shaheed. But this didn't happen, instead he willingly let one of his disciples pour gasoline on him and then put on fire. Thats not according to Sikhi at all. When it comes to Gurmat, this all does not matter. In his religion if he did the right thing thats fine. He did what his relgion taught him. But none of the Gurus gave their lives in this way and the fact that people are even posting such nonsense (sayin the Gurus did), shows how twisted people are to prove their own theories.

This guy is an inspiration and shows you what mindfulness can do. Whether you agree with what he did or not is debatable but you cannot deny how amazing it is that he sat through the fire without any sign of pain.

I agree with you, i never meant to hint that i thought it was gurmat or it wasn't suicide. I'm just respecting the courage it took to do what he believes was right.

omg seriously...singho next your gonna be telling me khadkus have begun to burn themselves in obtaining khalistan LOL....you want to know why bhuddism disappeared from afghanistan and india...well you have your evidence right there....bhuddists believe shastar is evil...the khalsa see shastar as their masters!!...tyrants are not swayed by self immolation...tyrants have no hearts...tyrants need to be hunted down and then decapitated....stop being flower power hippies and grow some nuts!

I hope it won't be built in a public place because most likely (I don't like saying it) it will be disrespected and vandalised by racists. I would prefer it to be next to a Gurudwara (or within the complex). If not then expect to see a newspaper report or a segment on the news where some idiots have daubed some graffiti on it - the same idiots who probably think the memorial is another way of "us taking over". Sadly I don't credit most of the public in the UK with the common sense and knowledge of understanding the intricacies of race and religion. Keep it somewhere where it is accessible but can also be maintained and kept secure. Saying 'near' the National Sikh Heritage Centre is very vague.

Is that how sophisticated your political mind is WL? That you think it okay to affiliate with the causes of low class yobbos? Can you SERIOUSLY not see how much of a dumb move that is? SERIOUSLY! I am absolutely flabbergasted. Did you ever stop to think that you might actually be besmirching the good name of Sikhs with such a move. Did you ever stop to give some thought to the mindsets of large swathes of EDL types? As we say in East London: "You sure you're not being a mug mate?!" If your idea of Sikh political expression is to align yourself with groups consisting of open and closet nazis, the barely literate and common yob football hooligan types who couldn't even handle a GCSE in their own language, then I'm sorry but you are a walking example of the Indian ideal of a 'politically clueless Sikh' you speak of. Besides your other points are well off. I'm against all of this overly nationalistic 'posturing' by apnay in their diasporic homes. American apnay can be some of the worst at this. Probably because they are crapping themselves. As an old schooler in the UK myself, I'm fiercely proud of my people's past of facing up to and telling white yob types (be they EDL or BNP or NF) to **** off, when needed. I feel deeply ashamed that any Sikh brother would even entertain the notion of solidarity with such low life sc-um. You need to straighten your head out - and real quick too.

West London 'Singh' apologist for the EDL. Are you for real..........

Woah, proper scary stuff man. masks and everything! I can only just see their eyes.

Only 5. You don't know what you're talking about man. How can you diss the monk for making a qurbani for his faith? Plus we have precedents in our older and more modern itihass with Bibi Anup Kaur and Fateh Singh anyway. If you must get worked up and fight with other apnay over stuff, do it over something worthwhile dude. That's one angry Canuck brother.....someone over there, give him a hug man..... And please tell us how old you are if you don't mind. I've got a feeling you are a teenager?

my vidya Guru told me that status of a shaheed is 2nd to God, so even if technically he did commit suicide, the monk still is a shaheed, and I dont think that Waheguru would hold this against him. the thing is, that we see this act as a man killing himslef, but the act was actually a strike, a vaar, against the govt of the time, the enemy, so i dont think the suicide would be too bothering to Waheguru, myself.

Sadly true. But any attempt to bring these issues to the attention of western institutions is all good in my book, regardless of jathebandi affiliation. In regards to the above posts, its only as recently as 2 weeks ago that I discovered there was a split in the panth regarding the issue of Sant Ji's ultimate fate. I feel I do not know enough about the situation to offer an opinion, yet I will continue searching for the truth. Hopefully Waheguru will help me in my search to understand these and similar issues. --------------- The reality of the situation is that the UK and USA are looking for trade and economic deals with India, in order to prop up their own precarious economies. They will never upset the "apple-cart" and jeopardise relations with India (and the likes of China who also have questionable human rights records), for the sake of a group of people who have been - absolutely wrongly - demonised in the world media (I'm going back to the issue of people incorrectly thinking Sikhs are militants or terrorists). The UK and the USA only interfere in "human rights" and abuses of democracy when there's something in it for them, i.e. the oil-fields of Iraq. Then they charge in like holy knights, attempting to restore order and spread justice. The rest of the world can go to hell as far as they're concerned, as long as it doesn't affect the interests of the UK and USA. So until the Hindutva bring their brand of terror to the streets of London and New York, we can rest assured the MPs of Britain and the Senators of the USA will not join us in our battle against this tyrannical country of ours.

Some people say they are good and some say that they sellout and tainted.

Yesterday it was based on a rumour you got on your mobile - this is from a credible source.

Your friend over there, obviously got cherries as opposed to real nuts, its takes real nuts to sit in smadhi with no movements while being burnt..most of sikh youth these days including me, move their body while doing simran because feeling of itch up their arse let alone their body on fire...so don't make fun of something if you don't have enough juice to prove otherwise. Lets shift the topic little bit, I wonder if instead of buddhist monk, if it was a singh's video in front of road Indian parliament, self immolating himself in purpose of protesting and bought some change in policies like buddhist monk did?, would it still be called suicide? or all of sudden- shaheedi? Obviously, cham has everything to do with opinion of some people.

http://manvirsingh.b...aurangabad.html Here, I'm post a link and tell me if this is the Baba Bir Singh ji you are speaking of and say if how Manvir Singh Khalsa in the link has told the story is right? If the story is correct, how Manvir Singh Khalsa explains it. then also this cannot be compared to the monks act of suicide. Because what Baba Bir Singh ji did was not at all similar to the monks death. Just tell me if that's the story of this Singh and I'll be more than glad to present how it's different than the monks death.

Guru Sahib again in the 9th form did not willingly cut off his head or get one of his Sikhs to do it, like this monk did. The Hindus asked for Guru Sahib's help and then Guru Sahib suggested that if a King gives his head, will you the Muslims stop the killing of the Hindus. The hindus went to the Muslim rulers to ask of this and they accepted. He just didn't get up and say to Bhai Mati Das ji, here is a kirpan and cut my head off, like the monk told his disciple, but told him to light him up. The Muslims rulers agreed to stop the killing if a King gives his head. Then Guru Sahib gave his head for the killing to be stopped, but never did it willingly. Guru Sahib Shaheedi cannot be compared in the 9th form either. There is a huge difference from the monks suicide to Guru Sahib Shaheedi. Read the definition of suicide. What Guru Sahib did was give the option to the Muslim ruler, to decide whether the 9th King lives or dies. It was in the Muslim rulers hands on Guru Sahib The Muslim ruler took Guru Sahib's life, it was not Guru Sahib himself, who took his own life. On the other hand the monks life was in his own hand. No one forced him to give his life. He decided to take it himself, which is against Gurmat.

Yes our nauvein patsah ji too.

Completely agree, and also Guru Tegh Bahadur maharaj ji's shaheedi.

I am sure you will find baba bir singh naurangabad shaheedi not gurmat as well then or Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Shaheedi on tati tavi not gurmat (god forbid in no way i m comparing beloved maharaj shaheedi with above or anyone else) just trying to make an point. Both raising an sword and attaining shaheedi and sacrificing oneself while showing an attribute of patience and hakum ,both types of shaheedi is parvan in sikhi. The problem with new age youth order is, they will big up one form of shahedi yet totally ignore/belittle other form of shaheedi which our gurus, and our soorma's like baba bir singh ji naurangabad attained. The claim that person committed an suicide is laughable , need to watch it carefully again, this guy is in smadhi while being burned until sareer gives up, in fact his disciple is pouring gasoline and matched it. He seemed to be in trance meditation. This is an live example, I was shocked see the video at first, when his disciple was putting gasoline on him(imagine how hard it must have been to follow that hakum of his master), but his lack of movement, sitting firm in meditation while he ignited himself and when others namaskar to him. I don't know i felt sense of calm knowing he didn't feel any pain and knowing he was in naam simran, how calm he was, this is live example and practical example how naam simran/abhyaas can control the senses beyond any pain. This video is extremely effective, can have an profound effect on people regardless of dharam who are on this path of simran sort of reinforce their belief in naam simran.

Updates 16/01/2011 Cllr Balvir Sond (Hounslow West Ward) signs joint statement condemning the English Defence League. Mr. Balwindar Rana (United Against Fascism) was today featured on XLRadio (http://www.xlradio.ca/) and discussed the topic of mislead Sikhs involved in the English Defence League.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1347335/Asian-sex-gang-Victim-tells-harrowing-story.html