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Not everyone is strong or even reasonably strong in their Sikhi and therein lies the crux of this 'debate'. There are people who are born into religious families and therefore have always known the basics and more. There are those who have some exposure and know the basics and there's those who may know very little. There are also those who have taken the time to delve into Sikhi and thus have built strong foundations, but again a newcomer or someone with little exposure wouldnt have this foundation. If people from the last two categories start to delve into Sikhi and happen to meet with this couple in question and are 'lead up the garden path', whose fault is it? The 'victim' for not knowing more about Sikhi even though they may just have started learning? Yes, there are plenty like you who won't fall for their tricks, but there are just as many who may not be as knowlegdable in Sikhi as you, I personally don't think it's fair to label that newcomer/less knowledgeable person as gullable and stupid. On the flip side I agree there may be seasoned sikhs who have been caught up in all this, but again without knowing their circumstances it's hard and unfair to pass comment on them. Different people are at different places in their Sikhi, and if a convincing person, who not only looks the part but seems to do everything in line with gurmat on the surface comes your way, how do you really know what's going on under the surface until you're exposed to it. I have come across the couple a number of times many years ago at Gurmat camps and workshops for young Sikhs, going by their appearance and contribution at those events, they came across as a young chardikala couple. It is now many years later that I have come to know about their 'other' activities and I wonder how many people may have become easily involved with them due to their presence at camps and other Sikh youth events (I say MAY have become involved as I don't know what's actually going on). I cannot comment on the actual couple as I've not had any personal experiences with them. As daft as it may seem, or as silly or gullible some people may come across as, isn't it our duty to have some daya for these people who have been messed around in the name of Sikhi, and if there is evidence against those who have been accused then to do something about it. We jump up and down when a kathakar comes along who is accused of leading people astray etc, is this really any different?

This whole thing highlights to me just how silly some sikhs have become. You can't blame that couple for this. They're just parasites feeding on the stupidity of many stupid sikhs. There will always be charlatans. There will always be bullies. Their will always be cheaters and tricksters. But they are not the stupid ones. The stupid ones are the ones stupid enough to fall for the tricks. You say I won't know how it feels until I personally experience it. Well....you're right. And I won't personally go through it because I'm not stupid enough or gullible enough to put myself in such a pathetic position. Look.....We are Sikhs. We have Guru Granth Sahib ji to answer all our questions and guide us through life. Thats the whole point of being a Sikh. We have no ned for rituals....we have no need for toothsayers, clairvoyants and superstition. Thats the very reason our forefathers walked away from the religion that has superstition, toothsayers and rituals. It is truly ironic how...now...300 years later, the members of that old religion our forefathers left have stopped believing in mumbo jumbo whereas we are going backwards and believing in more mumbo jumbo than them....partaking in more rituals than them...etc ? Believe me.....most people will be just like me in that they will read this thread and be amazed. Amazed not at the activities of that couiple but amazed and surprised at how gullible, weak bodied and weak minded many sikhs have become. This thread may have started as an attempt to expose the tricksters but all its really achieved is highlighted how weak in the mind many people with the appearance of gursikhs are.

Yep, I agree with the above. Panj Pyaare are exactly what their titles say - they are pyaareh. They will give you not judge you on your mistakes and punish you, but they will give you tankaah and you should accept it, whatever it may be. It could be as simple as being told to recite certain baniyaa a number of times... or more "difficult", depending on the kurehit that has been commited, it could be to go infront of sangat and beg for forgiveness. There are more "difficult" tankaah's that Panj Pyaareh give than that too but let's not go into that. Main thing to realize is Panj Pyaareh don't punish you. Go humbly, don't spread what the Panj Pyaareh tell you (unless they tell you to) and keep it gupt. Do it for the sake of actually seeking forgiveness from Guru Sahib for sins commited and not to show people, as some do. It's a personal thing that is between you and your Guru and keep it as so.

gurfateh g one benti it is not a saza saza means punishment the proper word is tankah which means salary Guru ji would never punish in anger those who come to his shelter or those who make a mistake and come with remorseful hearts instead the panj piaray give what is tankah tankah is given and it is like medicine to help a sikh up who has fallen into vice usually it will be path and seva of some sort this is meant to give the sikh strength to avoid falling into vikaars in the future when u get tankah be humble dont argue with the piaray and finish it as fast as you can it is not scary not meant to heart or punish you but to help and aid you tankah is like an antidote for poison it is like grace marks on a test

ਮੰਦਾ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਆਖਿ ਝਗੜਾ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ Dont create a conflict by calling anyone bad. In Siri Asa ki Vaar too there is a Hukam that instructs us to not call anyone bad. keep calm and carry on -- is the motto - no sikh would get effected by anything if we stil to the above hukham

of course you can - with a small dastar 0r keski with small kirpan inside it - a swimming cap is sufficient and excellent- i do it all the time - enjoy

Really great stuff, thanks!

Gur parmesar iko jaan. Guru sahib ji is parmeshar ji.

I think we should have the title changed from white Sikhs to 3ho Sikhs. White is a race, not a religion. You can be a white Sikh and not be a 3ho Sikh. 3ho is a lost cause. They have gone away from Gurmat to the point where I don't know if they are Sikhs or Hindus. After Yogi Bhajan, they even started to support homosexuality and pretend that Sikhi is okay with it. Maybe one day some soojvaan Sikhs amongst them might bring them to the Path of the Gurus, but right now they are just going furthur and furthur away with their innovations and deviations.

This Shabad is by Bhagat Sheikh Fareed Ji in Salok Fareed Jee on Pannaa 1379 fareedhaa rottee maeree kaat(h) kee laavan maeree bhukh || Fareed, my bread is made of wood, and hunger is my appetizer. jinaa khaadhhee choparree ghanae sehanigae dhukh ||28|| Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. ||28|| i don't understand the metaphor or the message behind it?

vaheguru ji ka khalsa vaheguru ji ki fateh It makes more sense if you read it alongwith the preceding and following Saloks. The meanings on STTM are very literal and do not make much sense unless you try to delve deeper. The meanings below are based on the veechar in Gyani Harbans Singh's steeks and Gurbachan Singh Makin's translations. The Saloks stem from several experiences of Bhagat Ji. First was a conversation Bhagat Fareed Ji had with his mother, who was trying to encourage him to eat nicer foods because he was becoming thinner. As he progressed through his life, he tried all sorts of things to attain inner peace, including fasts and chewing a piece of wood which he had tied around his neck instead of eating food. He eventually realised that food and drink was necessary to stay alive and strong enough to do Bhagti. But at the same time, it was clear that becoming attached to certain tastes and indulging in rich foods did more harm to your spirituality and state of mind than it did good. For this reason, he discusses the various aspects of eating food versus eating Naam and how to achieve a balance. For those people who become Gurmukhs, simpler food (i.e. roti without butter) becomes more pleasing to them as they only compare their food with the taste of Naam. PrIdw skr KMfu invwq guVu mwiKEu mWJw duDu ] Fareed: Sugar, candy, milk and honey are all sweet to taste. sBy vsqU imTIAW rb n pujin quDu ]27] But none of these sweets compare to the sweetness of your worship. PrIdw rotI myrI kwT kI lwvxu myrI BuK ] Fareed: My food is simple and hard like wood, and I eat when my hunger tells me. ijnw KwDI copVI Gxy shingy duK ]28] Grief comes to those people who butter their roti (and indulge in the pleasures of the body by abandoning Guru Sahib's bhagti). ruKI suKI Kwie kY TMFw pwxI pIau ] Eat simple food and drink cold water. PrIdw dyiK prweI copVI nw qrswey jIau ]29] Fareed: Do not long for richer foods and save yourself the bother. vaheguru ji ka khalsa vaheguru ji ki fateh

I have mainly used Ithaas Damdami Taksal (Sankhep). The jeevani is written by Sant Kartar Singh Jee. There is some information on Giani Mohan Singh Jee. Maybe in the future I can write their jeevani as well. The plan now is to finish Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee's hopefully by the end of this year. Then write about Sant Sundar Singh, Sant Kartar Singh, Sant Jarnail Singh and Baba Thakur Singh Jee. We'll see how Maharaj wills.