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By now I am sure you're all well aware of the Sikh character in the new series of Upstairs Downstairs. (played by Art Malik). The programme is proving a hit with female middle America and I've been reading alot of discussions and blogs from America in which people of middle America, having never been exposed to Sikhs before, have been so intrigued by the Sikh character that they've started researching and finding out about sikhs. Personally, I don't watch that kind of sentimental period drama rubbish so have no idea but its been quite interesting to find out about it from middle america, and to witness how its spurred an interest in sikhs among them. Catylists do sometimes come from the most unlikely of sources. Do you think this could be ours?

So basically I been noticing the past couple of days that Sangat TV have been promoting/supporting the idea of Bhagat Ravidas being a Guru etc... So the first question I'd like to ask is whether Sangat TV considers itself a "Sikh Channel" after all in the Sikh Rehit Maryada we believe in 10 Guru's and thats it! So is Sangat TV now moving in a direction that it can no longer call itself a Sikh Channel?! Secondly I was actually watching one of the programmes where a very well respected individual Mohinderpal Singh stated the Ravidas community should not separate bani and form a new panth... and yet later on he goes on to say its important to have our own Nagar Kirtans, Gurdwaray etc so our voice is heard! Is that not a contradiction? I think its very unfortunate in regards to the direction Sangat TV are going! Absolutely every community needs to be represented HOWEVER by continuing to call Bhagat Ravidas Guru...they are outside the edicts of Sikhi... in my opinion. Its not like calling Bhagat Ravidas a bhagat is some sort of insult or demeaning!... I don't understand what the Ravidas communities opposition is? If they claim its some sort caste discrimination... its not like other "castes" are calling for other bhagats or sants to be called a Guru... furthermore its becoming apparent that in time the Ravidas community is moving further away from the Khalsa panth, just watching their programmes/speechs other than Monhinerpal Singh there is no other Kesh-dhari let alone Amrit-dhari Its just very disturbing/unfortunate that Sangat TV is allowing this to be promoted under its banner! They might aswell indulge Naamdharis and Radhoswamis whilst their at it!

WJKK WJKF I also agree with Singhwarrior. Its the higher caste sikhs that always used to belittle them, and not allow them equal rights. My grandparents used to tell me lots of stories of how they were looked down upon, and not even eat from the same household. Thus the reason why they wanting to go their own way. Its great sangat tv are showing them on their channel. thats the only way to integrate them otherwise lose them.

Because you asked me if i watch tv, read newspaper, etc. If i said you don't understand the Shabad and this is a personal attack then you saying I took the Shabad out of context is also a personal attack. But you saying i took the Shabad out of context is not a personal attack and your opinion that disagrees with me. And i disagree with you, but I don't disagree with you because it's my opinion. At the end of this post i am going to post a katha by Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Maharaj. Take the time out to listen to it. Bhai Sahib, Veer ji, Baba ji, one of your first post in this thread started off by saying everyone is wrong and extreme. If you took the meaning of Sikh to heart, then you would have said, i am still learning so how do i know what is right and wrong. So i can't say someone is wrong or right. I am still learning. Also i know some are further down their jeevan than me and obviously these Baba ji's are getting their facts from somewhere else, so maybe instead of calling others extreme. I should ask them and only say you are taking Shabad out of context once i have heard a Brahmgyanis katha on the Shabad and the Brahmgyani says they are wrong. I completely understand that everyone is on a different level and i have stated this many times in other posts. What you don't like is when i or another tells us the right way of doing stuff. Then you jump out of your seat and start jumping up and down to get everyone to follow the level your at. If you want to listen to artist, then by all means, but don't bring Sikhi down to your level. Actually it's not obvious for some because they still want to say i can listen to music. It's like this....a runner that wants the gold medal and be the fastest runner in the world doesn't say, hey i still can eat fatty food, which will slow me down. He's not trying to be the fattest runner, but the fastest. Yes we know you have a different opinion and you voiced it loud by calling others extreme. Any more rocks my way will be just fine, make sure they are large in size. Next time you do Sri Japji Sahib da paat listen very carefully to where Maharaj is saying everyone is speaking. Specifically pauri 2 also pauri 21. Sri Anand Sahib da paat tells us don't listen to kachi Bani. Maharaj tells us in this paat to go to the Guru and sing his praises. The objective of this game is to keep rising toward Satguru's direction. If we can run, then run, if the fat of maya is holding our legs down, then speed walk, if the fat of maya has taken over our lungs and and we feel like a big fat block, then start walking, if the fat of maya doesn't even let you get out of the chair or bed, then deprive the fat of it's source, so you can get to the level of walking. So here is the katha. audios / Katha / Puratan Katha / Sant Gurbachan Singh (Bhindran wale) / Guru Granth Sahib Larivaar Katha / Raag Sri Raag Ang 60

So you may have read, or heard people saying sikhs are hindus could you provide quotes from Gurbani and Kathas from the past of where the Guroos denounced the hindu religion.? I.E Guru Nanak Dev Jee refusing the sacred thread, touching the untouchables, allowing everyone to read and listen to gurbani. Your assitance would be gratefull

Woah, woah. What are you saying? It's not flat? :wow: :lol2:

Mate, it baffles me how you come to the conclusion that I feel I need to compete with you to become a better Sikh, I have no idea where you get this idea from and don't really want to know to be honest! Now you are saying I don't understand the shabad. Why do you make personal attacks? My point is that Sikhi is not black and white. Please look at the word itself for God's sake. Sikh means learner. You can never have a perfect sikh until he/she becomes a brahmgiani. You clearly find it very very difficult to accept and understand that every person is on their own journey, some are closer to what they should be, some or not as close but they are still Sikhs (learners). Obviously, the ultimate aim is to be imbued with bani 24/7 but there is less than one per cent who are truly that. Even yourself, if you were what you preach, you wouldn't be on this forum engaging in these pointless (sorry but they are, as we completely have different views on these matters) debates or discussions. The artists I refer to are not necessarily singing their own praises. They are talking about philosophical things and trying to relate to people on their level. This can be very therapeutic in fact and help one develop in life and yes spiritually too.

I completely agree with SinghWarrior here!!!

Practices of Ravidassia community may seem weird to "mainstream" Sikhs, but Ravidassia community has been heavily ostracised and treated as "outcastes" by mainstream Sikhs in previous generations. Hence, their desire to separate and build their own religion. This has been promoted by RSS to weaken Sikhs. Actually, what the elders and Sangat TV are doing is good. We need to build community relations, show them that they are our brothers and sisters, and re-integrate them into the mainstream Sikh fold. It will take time, but we don't want to be in a position where, due to caste differences pursued by Punjabis in India and, to some extent, in UK in elder generations, we break these people off from Sikhi completely. People won't like this post. I'll probably be vilified, but we need to take a long-term view and not fall for the tricks the Panth Dushts are trying to inflict on us.

Fair enough and valid points, thus well taken. Now here is an open challenge. Listen to nothing but keertan for the next 1 month. Come back a month later and try listening to anything else and honestly confess if you didn't feel like puking. If you do, you've got your answer, if you don't, you'd still know what rocks your boat.

Why do you call it dogma (rule that you don't like, if you liked it then you wouldn't have spoken against it) when another calls it following Satguru's Hukam (Pyare). The poster above you has given a Shabad that tells us exactly waht not to do and what to do. YOu see this as dogma. We all don't have enough pyare for Maharaj, but when you refer to it as dogma, then you reveal something of your jeevan. YOu seriously lack a deeper pyare for Maharaj. A husband and wife get tried sometimes from listening to their spouse talk, when they have been married for a long time. Then they go find some quiet time alone or find a activity (chilling with the boys) to do that get's them far away from their spouse. When we say i can listen to the faithless cynic, then we are utlimately saying, Maharaj I am tried of listening to/reading Gurbani in katha, kirtan, Dhadhi, paat form. So I need a break. Some take a couple hour break and some take a day break and the really unfortunate souls take year or many life time breaks. Essentially, Gurbani doesn't give us a feeling of contentment (we lack the ability to understand Gurbani). Have you ever seen a dog filled with love for his owner, where the dog can't control himself and is jumping allover the owner. But when the owner leaves the dog is alright for a bit, but then completely gets depressed because his owner isn't there with him. Another can come, but the dog lays in the same position depressed and sings his owners praises all day, wishing the owner will come back. But as soon as the owner comes back the dog regains all it's energy and is a completely different dog. Gurbani tells us to do paat 24/7. You see this as dogma, but a Gursikh see's this as being in love. Just like you don't tell yourself to breath and your body is in love with the breath. Gursikhs don't have to force the 24/7 pyare for Maharaj. Just like how the fish can't live without water for a second, a Sikh can't live without Gurbani for a second. Gurbani gives us the metaphor how a bride longs for her husband to come back home and can't live without him. Another person or a group of friends can come to the house, but the bride is still waiting for her husband and the feeling of separation is not departing. In the same way we need to develop the pyare for Maharaj. When the husband comes home, then the bride is filled with joy and content. This bride will not search else where for love and Satguru tells us we need to learn from this and love Maharaj this way. Read it and this is the message Maharaj is giving us AiBmwnu Koie Koie Koie KoeI hau mo kau siqgur mMqRü idRVwey ]3] abhimaan khoe khoe khoe khoee ho mo ko sathigur ma(n)thra dhrirraaeae ||3|| I have destroyed, destroyed, destroyed my pride, since the True Guru implanted His Mantra within me. ||3|| This line is from the shabad the above poster from your post pasted a link too.

if asked that as the word Raam appears in Gurbani so much, that is surely proves that Sikh Guru Sahibs worship Hindu Gods like Sri Raam Chandar. Here is the answer to this from Gurbani kabeer raam kehan mehi bhaedh hai thaa mehi eaek bichaar | Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider. soee raam sabhai kehehi soee kouthakehaar |190| Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath (Sri Raam Chandar) and the Wondrous Lord. ||190|| kabeer raamai raam kahu kehibae maahi bibaek | Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. eaek anaekehi mil gaeiaa eaek samaanaa eaek |191| One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere (God), while the other is contained only in himself (Sri Raam Chandar). ||191|| Ang (1,374)

Some snippets from history: Moolraj and his Arabi horse mentioned: Info on bits used by the Sikhs:

Budha Dal Puratan bloodline from Neela Firanghi: One of the tallest stallions in Punjab today: Sister of the above stallion:

Bidhi Chand Fauj: New gaddi horse of Bidhi Chand Dal:

Thanks Singh559, i have uploaded 3 pics fom the book "The real Maharaja Ranjit Singh" by the Fakir Brothers. Sorry about the haphazard appearance. Note on 1 pic there is Maharaja Sher Singh, who made off with one of Maha. Ranjit Singhs favourite horses "Doolan", for which the King threatened to disown his son when he found out. The other is a "asp-i-laelee" written in persian script, which as i posted earlier is a feminine name, which led to the confusion of whether this was actually the sought horse. The other shows the horse "asp-i-laelee" with a well hung pair of testicles,showing the horse was a stallion.

Ahh...Punjab is slowly dying

How can mann win anything when the Sikh youths have been murdered who supported independence. Supporting Mann is a hopeless and wasteful cause. Better to work within the India system and break it within use the tactics they deploy against Sikh political interests. congress murdered Sikhs in 1984 not only out of revenge but also to reduce the Sikh vote bank. This is its important to wake up Sikhs educate them and begin the process of engaging India's hindu's to convert to Sikhism its the only chance to ever gaining sovereignty again but if we go with the likes of dal khalsa or mann then you can forget about sikh political power its a waste of time.

the bhai mardana sahib card being played again. would bhai mardana sahib sit in congress rallys next to gardas mann? khalistanigunmans last post is spot on

Does anyone know the nssal of these ghoray? They look marwari to me, could be wrong. http://www.flickr.co...s-60421816@N03/ http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.co...hiss/113352210/ Do you have any pictures of the puratan bloodline horses from Budha Dal veerji? If so i'd really appreciate, or if you know where i can find i'd appreciate. Also, interesting article: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110423/punjab.htm#6

Wjkk Wjkf jeo Veer ji, its nice to hear you have got the pyaas in your heart to learn more about Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Let me say this before I even attempt to answer: I am not an expert at rehat, nor I am an expert at gurbani (perhaps never will) but still, this is what I do for sehaj paath on the computer (i have a pdf file but its pretty much the same thing i suppose): 1. Firstly, id suggest you delete any anti-gurmatt material on your disk. If you have any songs/pics etc, I would suggest you move them to some seperate disk if you wish to retain them, otherwise just get rid of such stuff. 2. Make sure your laptop/computer is nice and clean physically i mean, coz once you open Gurbani on it, according to me, it becomes a saroop and that needs to be taken into account. 3/ Before doing the path, kindly take a shower or if not possible, do a panj ishanaan (wash you hands/feet/face/brush etc). Basically, follow the same rehat as you would before/while doing your nitnem. Close as many windows on your computer as possible, close any instant messaging apps and the like, so that Guruji have the highest precedence. Keep your laptop/computer at a higher place than yourself, then start the paath. 4. About the ardaas, i think its the respect that matters more (which you have ), just recite the normal ardaas and say 'Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib ji de ang. ___ de sehaj paath ji di ardaas hai ji', and bhull chukk di maafi as well because there are bound to be mistakes while doing Guru Granth Sahib ji's paath (i most certainly do!), and that may Waheguru ji give you more strength to recite shudh gurbani. 5. You can keep track of your progress by making simple notes in a notepad file and save it with an appropriate title, and at a place on ur disk where there is no 'clutter'. 6. According to my tucch buddhi, I think you should start with doing a manglacharan uchaaran before starting, and once you are done for the day, make sure you read the entire ang instead of leaving it in the middle. As i said, I am no expert, so please excuse if I have said something that is not appropriate! May Waheguru Ji bless you with all the happiness of the naam! Fateh ji!