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Oh okay, you peasants waiting on me to make a comment huh? lol Erm...hows about..... Only the most ignorant hogis in the world (i.e. a lot of them) would act oblivious to the fact that attitudes towards them stem largely from their own behaviour outwards. The abject failure to face up to long term, negative attitudes and actions towards those deemed 'lesser breeds' or 'lower' come home to roost with apathy being reciprocated. But that is lost on the average jat who has a victim complex ironically at par (if not greater) than that the ubiquitous one he frequently 'sees' in others. The long term celebration of alcoholism amongst that society is a fact - be in denial about it at your own peril. The erosion of spirituality based worldviews for a material, status obsessed one (and I use the word 'obsessed' here purposefully!), is plain to see by all. Few conscious jats would deny this. Some questions are in order: How long could the haughty way that jatts buy into anything that fuels their egos really last? What goes up MUST come down? Like their psychological slave-masters the Brits, jatts actually believed their own press pumped into their heads under colonialism without thinking to much about long term consequences or even short term motives of the ego fuellers. Now, just like the once 'Great' British, who haughtily surveyed their massive conquests/empire and believed the sun would never set on it, jatts too are having to reconcile themselves with being brought down a peg or 5 by natural events. Nothing stays static - every 'great' community/race/people of the past have been humbled and brought back down to earth - that is God's way. The main lesson to learn (in my opinion) is that we shouldn't buy into, or encourage inflated opinions of ourselves and our own community, because people easily get carried away with that - until the walls of reality come tumbling around us and we eventually gain the profound understanding (if we are lucky) - that, hang on, we were human and fallible like everyone else, after all. Look, seriously, Panjab jatt society is in a big mess right now. It is hard not to see a lot of this as self-inflicted. How jats of Sikh background have managed to alienate so many of their own Sikh brothers and sisters of a different background is something any jatt with an ounce of integrity needs to ponder upon seriously in my opinion. If after trying this, the conclusion you come to is that 'it's all x, y and z's fault' (i.e. no critical self-reflection), think about the very mindset that causes one to think in that narrow way perhaps? Let's be frank, a lot of us could see the mess we are in today coming way back. Me personally, current events just reinforce my belief in natural, God driven justice: ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀਆ ਨਿੰਦਕਾ ਪਿਠਿ ਦੇਇ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ I'll leave you to this debate. Personally I wish we could start getting busy with a grander vision than these caste based ones myself.

Not at all. Badal is an shining example of exactly the type of selfish, status, money obsessed jat mentality people are complaining about. Earlier some wally made the point about saint ji and his background. Well my response is that Sant ji never EVER exhibited those typical jat traits that have brought jats to their knees today. Sant ji lived humbly and served the panth, todays jat thinks he is some sort of born king. Sant ji lived an austere life, todays jat wants all mod cons and feels jealously suicidal at the next man's wealth. Sant ji hated 'whisky, shisky drinking sardars', todays jats are largely 'whisky shishky drinking sardars'. Sant ji hated based, foolish 'folk songs' and bhangra culture- todays jat argues that these things are jat culture itself. if jats are complaining about Panjab - then they should also take note at who have been at the helm of its leadership uncontested for ages now - fellow jats. Says it all.

penji don't carry the extra baggage... try not to concern yourself with everyone else, if you have some good sangat then great, stick with them... remember people come and go... try and build a stronger relationship with maharaj. look after yourself. Vaheguru jee ka khalsa, Vaheguru jee ke fateh.

"...they have an ego and history of suppressing low castes". This is the biggest understatement of the 20th and 21st century combined! Jats have made a career out of mocking non-jats. This is despite the architects of the hindu caste-system continually reminding the jats that in their eyes, a jat is nothing more than a shudar. But all we heard for the last decade was "jat isn't part of that system, jat is a race not a caste". However, it apears the chickens have indeed come home to roost. Dear oh dear, what a milestone this is indeed. Or is it? Afterall, the this link ( http://sikhsangat.org/2013/jat-sikhs-seek-obc-status-in-punjab/ ) merely tells us what we have known all along: a jat is a shudar. The only thing that is new is that.....jats have finally accepted it. Everyone else had known this since the beginning of time. Afterall all the 'huffing and puffing', this is what it has come to.

Since When were Jatt Sikhs OBCs, since past century, they have an ego & history of suppressing low casts. Making fun of Khatri/Arora's who came from North Punjab calling them Refugees/Bhape, making fun of Afghani's Sikh's accent, making fun of Ramgharia Sikhs calling them "Tarkhans", not allowing Ravidaasia Sikhs into Gurudwara (seperate door for them, video below), calling them Mazhabi Sikhs. Now when they have mortgaged their land to Baniya's and drank all the money in "Sharaab" and Afeem, they want OBC status.

According to traditional gurmat, there are three types of students as such- intial updesh in Gurbani is addressed to three types of students where gurbani updesh is given(via hakumnama, mahapursh-sadh sangat etc) accordingly to based on student state of mind, based on student depth. Gurbani is agam agad bodh, its fully connected with our human consciousness, it talks to individual in many ways- some time outright slap via hakumnama, sometime through ishara/very subtle way via hakumnama/mahapursh katha/updesh..so at the end, its the student duty to decipher updesh from gurbani given to them blunt or sutble..sadh sangat or in sangat of mahapursh is also recommended as per gurbani, so they can further guide the student or alternatively, student can also honestly self reflect and grade themselves. Bhai Gurdas Ji talks about: Vaar 7 - Pauri 3 (Tin di ginati-gurmukh) Brahama Bisanu Mahesu trai bk ved gun gian langhae. Bhut bhavikhahu varatamanu adi madhi jini anti sidhae. Man bach karam ikatr kari jamman maran jivan jini de. Adhi biadhi upddhi sadhi surag mirat pdtal nivae. Utamu madham nich sadhi balak joban biradhi jinae. Ira pingula sukhamand trikuti langhi tribeni nhae. Gurmukhi ika mani iku dhiae. Also Sant Maharaj Baba Isher Singh Ji Rara sahib wale along with damdami taksal jathedars also talks about three types of student: source: Ishvar Amalok Lal (personal dairy of sant isher singh ji rara sahib and also see-japji sahib audio katha by gyani thakur singh ji) 1. Kanishtt Bhajneek (ਕਨਿਸ਼ਟ ਭਜਨੀਕ) - Those who cannot concentrate their minds during paath or meditation are called Kanishtt (Low-level). Still, they are much better than those who do not take any initative at all. 2. Maddham Bhajneek (ਮੱਧਮ ਭਜਨੀਕ) - They try to control their minds during worship. Sometimes they are successful at it. 3. Uttam Bhajneek (ਉੱਤਮ ਭਜਨੀਕ) - Their minds settles down well during meditation/worship. They are able to find peace. In layman terms consider kanisth student as - beginner, madham jaigaso- intermediate and utam jaigaso- advanced. As there are three types of students, and there are various updesh in gurbani addressed to three types of students, when it comes naam simran, there are also similar classification. Please see-attached

Ok, this has been really annoying me for a while now. It has been going on for quite while and yet as far as i am aware no one has batted an eyelid. Not just non Amritdharis are guilty of this but so are countless of Amritdharis and Gursikhs. So far this year I have received 6 wedding and Akhand Paath cards and in each and every one of them there is a tuk from bani! Two of these cards I have received from Amritdhari families. I think putting bani in these cards is extremely disrespectful! The cards if posted get thrown all over the place and are held by someone who may have just had a bacon sandwich or cigarette a few mins ago. If they are hand delivered then most are left all over the place. And once the wedding/ Akhand Paath passes how many get thrown straight into the bin? We wouldn't treat an ang from Guru Granth Sahib Ji or from the gutka in this manner so why is it acceptable for a card that contains a line of bani. In fact what is the need to contain bani in the card in the first place? Stick what ever else you want on there but LEAVE THE BANI OUT!!!!

Good article http://www.searchsikhism.com/si1.html Non Punjabi Sikhs face a lot of discrimination from day 1, especially if they're of another race. Please read the article by a Sikh sister in America who discusses the challenges that their family have faced and suggestions for improvements. One thing that struck a chord with me is how much Punjab culture oriented Gurdwaras are, most people gossip about Punjabi affairs, complain about Muslims converting their daughters, complain about disliked sects and their leaders, few praise the lord God. There is no interest to engage with people , discuss spirituality, discuss Sikhi etc. People are generally not very friendly and indeed stare at you if you look out of place. If you went to a normal Church they have a close knit community, people are very friendly, even to newcomers and casual visitors from other faiths. Families take you into their home, they praise their prophet and God regularly. I have more meaningful conversations about God with someone from another faith than with anyone from the Gurdwara. And what's with referring to people by the colour of their skin? When trying to refer to a man whose name I had forgotten, I referred to him by the unusual colour of his turban, the other party exclaimed, oh you mean the `gora `. Also why only speak out for atrocities committed against Punjabi Sikhs? We have a righteous duty to protect the weak and vulnerable from tyrants and oppressors especially those who are not Sikh. I don't see much gurdwara collections being spent uplifting poor non sikhs in Bihar or Sierra Leone from poverty, nor do I hear many Punjabi Sikhs rallying support for genocide victims in Africa. There is much more but I don't want to make this a rant. Do read the article linked above , its not an attack on Punjabis, just a humble request from an amritdhari sister to reflect on the situation. Guru Nanak ji engaged with people from all backgrounds during his travels. Sikhism does not belong to Punjab, Gods message is for everyone. God loves all, black white brown ,yellow purple or pink. Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Khalsa is a brotherhood.......If you can't follow the Khalsa rules, then take the identity off or one day another will take it off for you. The message for such people should be clear..........no tolerance for bad behaviour in the Khalsa identity.

Till this day I have to sit in family functions where I have to hear how Jatts are the best and Chamars are low and have an inhuman lifestyle and are just dirty and immoral people. For years I have had to listen to aunties and uncles trash other castes and make them feel uncomfortable entering "our" Gurdwaray... Its never going to stop! Even as I watch the other Castes progress and leave these Jatts behind economically and intellectually I now have to hear this bakwass that now Jatts are the hard done by community!? I have listened to countless stories of how the Jatts beat the crap out of some poor "choora" like its some sport back in the day or taught some other chamar a lesson... in your average pinds I visit now is a drugged up alcoholic mess dreaming of going Canada/UK... I come from a Jatt family and can admit we have an unjustified superiority complex. Always have and probably always will have! P.S at Jatt Gurdwara^^^ lol you serious? You never heard of Jatt Gurdwara... I know of Chamar familes that got turned away from Jatt Gurdwaray to get married in! I have seen sangat with my own eyes hound a tarkhan woman to go back to her own gurdwara! and West London Singh did you not see that youtube clip posted?! Jatts are the worse when it comes to behaviour in Gurdwaray... atleast other castes treat you nicely... Jatts implement separate entrances etc

Sadh Sangat ji, I have been reading this forum for many years, but this is the first time I felt the need to post. I am at university studying for a Master’s degree and I am struggling to put maximum effort into my studies and exam preparation. I started this course in September after finishing my BSc in June. Some days I am productive, some days I am not, and lately the latter seems to be the case. Most of the time I feel I would rather spend 3 hours at Gurdwara listening to path/kirtan/katha than 3 hours at home studying, but then if I do this I feel guilty for neglecting my studies. I go to the Gurdwara everyday and do benti to Maharaj to bless me with a Gursikhi jeevan, Amritvela, Nitnem and success in my studies. Yet time and time again, I sit at my desk and half-heartedly try to revise for my exams. Also this is my 5th year living alone away from home and it is very easy to become lazy and fall into bad habits such as eating late, sleeping and waking up late. I really do want to complete this course, and soon the research project will start which is a major component of the MSc, and I know I will enjoy this more. But I struggle the most with exams, and I have two this month, and am not feeling too confident. I don't really get distracted by the Internet, and I have no TV, I just struggle to concentrate fully and put 100% effort in. The number one thing going through my mind is that once I leave this world, all my wordly education will not come with me- only naam simran and Gurbani abhyaas will. So I think why do I devote so much time and money to my education when in the end it will serve no purpose? This MSc will hopefully enhance my career prospects, but I am not after a six-figure salary, I would just like a job that utilises my degree knowledge and provides me with a modest, comfortable living. I guess I am asking the sangat to help me strike the right balance between Gursikhi jeevan and worldly education. I think I need to develop a consistent Amritvela routine and sit down to study after completing Nitnem, and listen to kirtan or Sukhmani Sahib whilst studying. I just wondered if the sangat had any more ideas to help me practically achieve this goal. Thanks for reading. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Racist? I call it as I see it. For the best part of the last 15 years, I have read article upon article stating that "jats aren't a caste, jats are a race", "jats were somehow born with greater powers or some make-belief elevated position in feudal society". As for any "insecurity complex clouding reading abilities?", only 2 weeks ago I read on another thread a poster from SikhSangat stated how his ancestors "phyisically abused" non-jats if the non-jat somehow "didn't do as they were told" as it were. Just look at the youtube videos, mazhbi's being asked to enter through a different door. It makes me sick. Plain ridiculous! On a scale of 1 to 10, how pathetic is this? 13, 19? There's no excuses, none absolutely whatsoever. Anti-jat? Anti-caste more like it. But because it is jats who have propogated this hindu-derived ideology more than any other group, it is jats who will feel the global backlash against it. And feel it they certainly will, rest assured. With regards to specifics about lower exams grades to enter university, guaranteed govt jobs, sarpanch, etc - I'm against 'postive discrimination'. Meritocracy is the way forward. Certainly, since 1948, reservation-based quota's have been used, and there was a reason for this, there was a time and a place for this and it was right at that time. However, I don't believe they should continue to exist. Open competition and merit-based entry into all govt jobs is the way forward. There should be financial support for ALL those individuals regardless of background from nursery level upwards. I recall in 2003, Kings College London opened a special scheme to allow students from "traditionally disadvantaged backgrounds in the local area (south London) to enter medical school.....with reduced entry-requirements compared to the rest of the intake. It mostly targetted at afro-caribbeans or students from single-parent familes. I was against that. I'm against it in the UK & I'm against it in India. WLS, I don't detest my children, mostly because I don't have any, but point being, if I did, I would firstly teach them how the guru's annhilated the caste system, how certain groups do their upmost best to revive it and to never look down/up at someone for being from a different background. Currently, what you have is a group of people who think of themselves so highly, lets pull no punches, they do think they are something special, and who are now literally commiting suicide or abusing drugs that they are fighting for OBC status. 30 years ago, if I called a jat "backward", I would have been verbally abused. Now, they are themselves fighting all the way to be called and classified as 'backward'. You just can't make this stuff up, honestly, you really can't.....

To be frank I couldnt give a monkeys if she found it hard to appropriate the Sikh faith. Life for Sikhs in the West isnt a Disneyland fairytale. I dont go round giving lists to white/black people on how I should be treated. If she wants to stop genocide in Africa, I'll send her some money to buy an AK47 and she can go over there and do something about it. Arent Amritdhari Sikhs meant to be SantSipahi all the time? Dont think that Punjabi Sikhs havent noticed how recent converts couldnt give a damn about South Asian human rights issues. People from Anglo-Saxon/Western backgrounds have a hard time coping with the idea that their effect on their colonies was anything but benign. They also have an idealised view of India of being a poor backward country constantly needing outsiders to come and do some charity so that the Westerner can feel good about themselves. Yeah, not buying it. I dont know what non-Sikhs expect when they go to the Gurudwara...smiling happy clappy brown folk doing cartwheels so that the newcomers can get over their own insecurity and ego? I get stares from other Sikhs when I go to the Gurudwara, everyone does, staring isnt such a big thing to South Asians as it is to others. Can we move onto some real issues.

you sound very upset and i must say angry, maybe you should look at the real source of your feeling and not project them onto the cards. true bani always remains in ones heart and can never be removed, Cards, paper and ink are all perishable and material items and are part of mothers earth recycling process, they will eventually wither out anyway. Maybe you are over-attatched to learning the bani through your mind and need to learn that bani lives in your heart and you will understand it through your daily experiences based on love and relationships with family and friends.

Do your own mool mantar my sibling. Feel each and every word and contemplate on the deeper meanings as you go along. Sing Wahegurus praises. Throw in some gurmantar too. Connect with it. Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

NeoSingh Jee, I watched this Video. Harsh and brutal truth - We Sikhs have been in a confused state since the past 50-100 years, there was a lot to be done, there is still a lot to be done, we HAVEN'T SPREAD THE MESSAGE OF GURU NANAK INSIDE INDIA, LEAVE APART THE WHOLE WORLD - The message "Awal Allah Noor Upayeya, Kudrat De sab bande". This message clearly attacks the Varna system, but on the contrary as I posted in another thread, we have became victims of Castesim ourselves. Had Sikhs worked positively to spread the message of Guru Nanak in a +ve manner, all RadhaSwamis, Nirankaris etc. etc. followers we see today, had followed Khalsa/Sikh/Guru Nanak priciples, but as the below Video shows, we have been in some other sort of negative ego and have damaged ourselves. Now they themselves want OBC status after having done a lot of damage to the Panth.

Jats wanting obc status is all about the economics. Today in punjab those with obc status can get into colleges even if they have bad marks or get a good job even if they dont qualify for the job, while a jat no matter how qualified he is will not be able to get a job. Manpreet badal had wanted to scrap this whole obc status based favours. Instead he advocated that it should be the poor of all castes who need these. Because a jat with less than two kilaas of farm land is just as disadvantaged as those currently getting obc status benefits.

http://www.sikhchic.com/article-detail.php?cat=33&id=3956 Straight Talk: An Open Letter to The Citizens of New Delhi, IndiaT. SHER SINGH My heart bleeds over the brutalities suffered by Jyoti Pandey and her friend, and the suffering that their families are going through. I also feel the pain of the women in your city and of their families: the terror of having to negotiate the world every time you step out of your home to go to work or school, to step out in your neighbourhood, or to move from one to another to shop or visit or play or merely enjoy the amenities of life in a city. Your leaders, both political and religious, have already played their cards. They’re not about to let you change anything around you, because if they did, they’d be the first ones to be locked behind bars. Your media has no interest in helping you change things for the better, because they represent corporate interests first and foremost. And those interests are now commingled with the interests of the political and religious hierarchy. Maintaining the status quo is seen to be best for them, even though it may not be for you. But, unfortunately, you have an even bigger elephant in the room. Nineteen Eighty-Four. Yes, yes, I know. You want us Sikhs to move on and stop harping on 1984. Well, we have moved on. We are forever in chardi kala -- it’s in our DNA. We have forgiven, though not forgotten. We’ll pursue the culprits as long as they are alive, but we will never be their victims. Don’t forget, for better or worse, your country is being led by a Sardar who has dragged you all, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century. [No, this is not a typo … you have another century to go before you can lay claim to the 21st, I’m afraid.] As I was saying, we’ve gotten over it. But you haven’t. You never will. 1984. You can deny it, ignore it, pretend it never happened, whatever … but it will follow you wherever you go. It will haunt you in your sleep. It will be your nightmare day and night. And it will sit on your head, monkey-like, on the heads of your children, and the children of your children … Why? Given the thousands of innocent men, women and children killed in your streets and our homes in 1984 -- in your city alone, without even getting into what happened in the villages, towns, cities, even moving trains, of your land -- and the thousands of women who were raped then, it requires no complicated arithmetic to figure out that a hundred thousand and more of your city were involved -- directly! -- in the rape, murder and mayhem. Remember the mobs, some in hundreds, some in thousands, that roamed the city for three days, unfettered, unchecked? Well, they are all alive, free still, never charged, never tried, never punished, and they live amongst you. They are your fathers, your brothers, your husbands, your sons, your lovers. A hundred thousand of them. One of your own religious leaders said the other day that your men need to have sex every 15 to 20 days, no matter where or how they get it. He must know his flock. That’s why, isn’t it, that a rape occurs every 20 minutes in your land? That’s the official figure! Three every hour, 36 every day, 252 every week, 1080 every month, 12,960 every year … give or take a few. Now, please keep in mind that these figures, being 'official', are but the tip of the iceberg. The terrible tragedy of December 16, 2012 will not change anything. Simply because those who are now raping you have nowhere else to go. You are the true inheritors of 1984. And your inheritance is that your children and the children of your children will hound you. And stalk each other. Because it is the law of nature. As revealed by Krishna, and by Jesus. By Mohammed, Buddha, Moses, Mahavir. And Nanak. As you sow, so shall you reap. That’s the law. And the law applies to individuals and it applies to communities, societies, and nations. In case you think I’m making this up, here are a few reminders. Pakistan was created through murder and mayhem. In the name of religion. Tens of millions of innocents suffered gravely because their leaders had no patience to try peaceful means. Today: their own mullahs murder them. Every day. The country is a pariah of the world. Israel. Walked roughshod over the lives of millions of innocent Palestinians, because it was able to buy the military might it needed to do it. To establish a state in the name of religion. Today: missiles of modern fire and brimstone rain on them at regular intervals with biblical fury. Almost seven decades later, and there’s no peace to be had. Even in sleep. Britain. And Europe. They raped and plundered the world for five centuries, each pretending to spread the word of God, but in reality pillaging the wealth of others and murdering their true owners. Today: they are surprised to see that people of all the lands they brutalized have arrived in their homelands. There are no ifs and buts. Britain’s demographics is changing to make way for a new majority. And it won’t be Anglo-Saxon. The rest of Europe is not far behind. The colonies are knocking on the gates. America. It has rained death on other nations, and has built its wealth on the corpses of countless children wherever they’ve gone to plunder. Today: they simply don’t know how to prevent their own children from murdering them in their own homes. Every day, new barricades have to be raised … to defend against themselves. A nation … at war with itself. There’s a reason why there’s no hope for peace on earth. Because we’ve all committed atrocities, we’ve outdone each other. What you sow is what you reap. So, remember 1984, as you lock yourselves up in your homes in New Delhi and get accustomed to moving around in human convoys. I was at a party the other day. My hosts were Indian. And so were all the other guests. I was the only Sikh-Canadian. At one point, emboldened by liquor and the fact that he saw I was alone in a sea of desis, one of them cleared his throat and, in a raised voice, confronted me: “So, Sher Singh ji,” he said, in feigned politeness, ”where are all the Sikhs and their kirpans now when we need them again to protect our daughters in India? Where were the saviour Sardars when the girl was being raped on a bus in Delhi the other day?” He stood across the room, glowering at me, waiting for my response. The room turned quiet suddenly. They were all waiting for my answer. I stood there, facing him. Seconds ticked by. He stared at me. Others stared at me. I stared at him. Finally, I said: “Where do you think the Sikhs of Delhi have gone, and why do you think they are unable to save your women?” I continued looking at him. Gradually, ever so gradually, his eyelids fell. He looked at the floor. His shoulders slumped. His head sank, as if he was checking the polish on his shoes. Quietly, ever so quietly, he shrugged his shoulders. Didn’t peep a word. Then slowly, ever so slowly, he turned around and staggered towards the bar. In a room of almost 40 people, I swear I have never heard a louder silence than I did that night. January 10, 2013

Cultures that endorse modesty and cultures that endorse hypersexualization are the *same* thing. Both define female sexuality by how it relates to the male gaze. In both cases the female body exists as an ornament either to be kept carefully hidden or put on display. Neither is empowering for women.

'He will sort ou the wrong doings in his own time'. Stop talking, cowards walk that way. I really don't want to listen to a 1hr speech, all he's saying is yea they live immune, there's no justice, how dare you talk secularism yet opress us. Then he's proly asking people to rise up. Ok, if someone is raping and burning your house, I kindly ask you to be a sant and take it. 6th master changed that, and 10th made sure we understand we don't take <banned word filter activated>. So stop. R u afraid of death? 'Why don't we hear Sikh politicians speak like this?' Because we're considered a core of indian society and are watched closely while muslims are left at the sides esp. beause many muslsim are lower caste I was watching that other video, even though this guy's genuine I wonder what his caste is, and what he gains from this otherwise. I'm getting cynical.

Here are some books that i have gathered overtime and hope the sangat is interested in reading them. Some of them you might have seen before so forgive me. Waheguru Gubani Healing Guide in English (sarb rog ka Aukhad Nam book) how to do simran and what causes ailment and their remediesNaam Seva tai Hukam by Balbir Singh A must read for anyone who wants to do Naam Simran Dasam Granth Da Mahatav by Guru Nanak Dev MissionArticle on Rana Surat Singh Great Humanist Guru Nanak Dev Ji By Sir Jogendra Singh & Raja Sir Daljit Singh Ranjit Singh: Maharaj of Punjab by Khushwant Singh The Sikh Way of Life by Ranbir-singh Glimpses of the Divine Masters by Ranbir-singh November 1984 Pogroms of Sikhs in IndiaHistory of the Punjab and of the Rise,Progress, & Present Condition of the Sect and Nation of The Sikhs 1846 Gobind GIta A Critical study of the life and teachings of Sri Guru Nanak Dev by Sewaram Singh Thapar Sources on the Life & Teachings of Guru Nanak Sikhs by A.H. Bingley 1899

oh i forgot to mention, if you try to put ocean in one glass, its impossible, same if you try to understand rub, its not possible, baaki one more example, ek bache de samne jawaan khada hai par bache noon ki pata jawani ki hai, jawan de age budha hai, par jawan noon nhi pata ki budha ki soch reha hai, ek budhe noon pata hai age maut hai par maut ho kai hi pata chalda hai maut ussi tarah rab ho ke hi pata chalega ki rab ki , edan sochan naal nhi gal banani

What proof do you have about such a story... I can make up stories too. Stories are made up so kids develop a strong sense of faith. I'm just puzzled how gullible people above the age of 10 are.

I'm just astonished by the way people think... % of your simran?! Are you serious? If you're going to play the game of I did x amount of simran, sewa etc with Waheguru then you have no hope my friend. Learn to be a little selfless... sheesh

I think you are talking about this audio where sant isher singh ji rara sahib explains. Please see-attachment. Basically, there has been difference of opinions on mool mantra between sant samparda's but it was never to point where that difference of opnions caused disunity in anyway, they kept the difference of opinions to themselves by looking at the bigger picture and by always providing very neutral, humble and grounded approach. There are lot of things we youths can learn from senior gurmukhs and mahapurkhs..!! Sant Maharaj ji view on mool mantar.mp3 Here - Sant Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowal takes very neutral,unified approach giving indication of intensity of mool mantra. Please see-attachment

I second that, its amazing article please pin it. how can we incorporate this article with hash-tags incredible india, india tourism etc so google search with india or incredible india keywords picks up this article as well? any ideas?

BHENJI NO PROBLEM AT ALL... HAVE YOUR FULL TIME ITS NOT VERY URGENT THANK U SO MUCH ONCE AGAIN

Had we sikhs- each one of us- engage ourselves in niskham seva and niskham naam simran, we wouldn't have this talk/effects of karams or keep tracking of karams in log books at the first place. Whilst not totally rejecting effects of karam- give or take while doing seva or eating langar, effects of karams in langar, only plays an factor to only those who is perceiving it or seeing it from that angle, it effects to those whose cares about their karamic impression so much so that it supercedes overall concept of langar which its blessed gur ka langar and pangat tradition started by guru amar das ji..the fact is- those who perceiving/seeing langar as gur ka langar and pangat and do niskham seva and do naam simran, read gurbani with devotion, faith and in love, small effects of karam while engaging eating in langar even itself out to the point it does not apply to them. So in essence, stick to niskham seva, naam simran, treat langar as blessed food - gur ka langar and everything will work itself out, let guru maharaj handle effects of karam in eating langar..so yea quite bluntly - have some faith in Guru Maharaj and Gurbani instead of turning -eating langar into karam kaand ritual of keeping tracking of karams in log books.

Which cultures are you referring to here when speaking about both? So a woman that is properly clothed (not hidden) is not empowered? It's funny you use the word hidden here, but I guess it goes along with your overly subjective term ornament when it comes to modesty. With no doubt hypersexualization parades women around like an ornament. But modesty does not work in the same way. When speaking about modesty women cloth themselves properly because they respect their body. If a male finds a properly clothed woman attractive, then the culture that endorses modesty has not clothed the women to stop male gazes. I'm put it in another way, not all males find the same thing attractive, hence making it impossible for a culture to endorse modesty on the basis of male gazes. Cultures do tell women to cover themselves to prevent males looking, but this does not mean the culture is endorsing modesty whatsoever. Clear example of this is the Muslims by covering the women up completely. Modesty is decency of dress, what decency is left when the woman is completely covered? So such cultures don't speak of modesty, but covering up so the women is unseen. I shouldn't say punjabi culture, but many punjabis be them Muslim, Hindus, or Sikhs teach their daugthers not to cover up, but be properly clothed, which shows modesty. Covering up doesn't represent modesty and neither does letting it all hang out. Modesty is something different.

The fact that Punjab has been butchered into pieces by Punjabis themselves in order for small caste groups to maintain control is the true failure. This is just the rotten fruits of maintaining Brahamanic society divisions within the land.

Khalsa Ji The explanation that I was given for the criteria of Langar was: Scenario 1: A person consumes Guru Ka Langar without doing any sewa , without doing any Nitnem , and without making any contribution towards the Langar. Scenario 2: A person eats Guru Ka Langar and does seva , does Nitnem , and makes a contribution towards the Langar. Scenario 2 is okay but scenario 1 is harmful since Langar is made with Pooja da dhan. 10th Patshahi desribes Pooja da dhan as zher {poison}. Consumption of Pooja da dhan without due care can have detremental effects. Langar should be available 24/7 and without discrimination as per the teachings of 10th Patshahi {see the praise given to Nand Lal ji's Langar seva}. Apologies for any inaccuracies. Waheguru.

Listen firstly don't hate yourself, keep on the spritual path and do ardas to Waheguru ji everyday. Not because you want something back but for your love of Waheguru ji. Secondly you may have some confidence issues but thats ok, just expecting things to change automatically wont happen. You need to put in some effort as well. Don't think people hate you as hate is a strong word. You need to try and carry yourself better, if you act confident, walk tall, look people in the eye when talking these things make a difference to other peoples perception of you. If you have a school councillor try talking to them and ask for help if not involve yourself in something you enjoy and mix with people with same interest. Does'nt have to be sports could be like anything such as book club, chess club etc. You might be shy but you have to try changing things to make a difference. Do it in very small baby steps. I know how had it can be to fit in. Myself and wife are very outgoing and never had issues but my daughter who is 7 now, when she started school like after nursery she did'nt mix in well. She was getting bullied. She is born in late August and as the school year starts in September some kids were llike nearly 1 whole year older and at that age it makes a lot of difference. But gradually we got her to build up her confidence. She is involved in many after school clubs and does other activities like Twe Kwon Do etc. " years ago she was very shy apart from bullying her daddy but nowadays she is totally different. You have to put in something to make a differnce.

You know when someone is in deep sleep in the dark, and you turn on the lights all of a sudden, what is their first reaction? Its an angry "TURN OFF THE LIGHTS!" remark, right? Similarly, those who are in deep sleep under the darkness of maayaa and the various vikaars, the moment they see your illuminated spirit carrying the appearance of Guru Sahib, they will want to turn you off, and turn you down. But don't let that bother you, instead, smile back at them, because that is the response they least expect. Don't get played down by them in their game, rather choose your moves carefully and play your own game. You'll win!

Here's the discussion on Nihal's program (Are turbaned Sikh men discriminated against when it comes to dating and marriage ?): http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01phm9y The be-sharam himself calls in and tries to defend his actions (backed by the Anti-Sikh Jasminder).

Many others have responded wonderfully giving good advice about sleepiness when simran. I just wanted to add two more important points. Firstly try to ensure you are getting at least 7 to 8 hours sleep before you get up and shower to do simran, nitnem etc because 7 to 8 hours every night is the usual average of our body's need for sleep after which it feels refreshed. Sleeping late and then trying to pray at amrit vela usually brings on sleepiness to many people. In the long term, sleeping adequately will help you feel refreshed when you get up. Secondly you mentioned that sitting at night at your computer does not make you sleepy. That is because you are engaging and interacting your mind with the things that excite and interest you on the computer. You need to use this same logic in simran. Simran is not about mechanical chanting, not really engaging your thoughts and mind. Simran is based on talking and praising God and Guru every time you say Waheguru. You have to do simran with the understanding that God and Guru's presence is in and around you, and you are praising God everytime you say Waheguru. Then, through simran you are now really engaging and interacting with God and thats when the magic starts to happen. When you do simran the right way, instead of getting sleepy your mind will enter heightened states of naam ras, naam rangan, gyan, chardikela, sehaj, and you will start experiencing stuff that is hard to describe here but will blow your mind. Also the thing to really aim for is not just simran morning and evening, but swaas swaas simran... breathe in..wahe/wah,....breath out....guru. Hear this within yourself as you breathe in and out making it a habit. All through Guru's grace if you always beg for naam during ardas.

NICE WAY PF SAYING IT... But i dont plan on having kids

There is no logiv here - just bibble babble. - There cannot be no suffering from eating langar - what planet are u on boss? agree with kalygi -- not to take it to extreme and treat like a dessert dinner

I love it!!!!

I feel appalled at the way I am seeing this thread developing. First of all, as I stated earlier I really do not see the need for this thread to have even been started. In my life, through Guru Maharajs kirpa, I have learnt that no matter how intelligent and educated you are, you have to keep things simple and focussed, if not you will lose track along the way. I see so many saints and sakhis being quoted here for no reason at all! A question has been asked about peoples thoughts concerning some saint praying for which apparently the 1947 partition which was meant to be earlier, to be delayed and the wish was apparently granted. There is no need to gather opinions from others when you appear to have already made up your mind that this was the case, unless the question is a preach in the disguise of a question, because you feel sufficiently inspired by this story as it fits into your acquired mindset about the nature of the proximity between God and his saints. However, if you are a sincere seeker of the truth, then, you should never be concerned about anybody elses thoughts about this matter because as a Sikh your only concern ought to be what is the official mainstream gurmat vichar on this matter. You have been explained in the clearest of terms, that from the viewpoint of Sikh philosophy a)a Sikh has to abide in the Will or hukum of God in no uncertain terms, full stop, b) a Sikh in all humbleness must not interfere in the Will of God, and c)saintliness in Sikhism is not to be divorced from soldierness at any excuse. Apart from that, I am not interested in any further continued attempt to prove your point, or carry on debating using examples regurgitated from the lectures of any one no matter who they are, or from Sikh history etc. All that knowledge you have acquired concerning God kow-towing to his saints etc is not relevant here . As I said earlier, this is a Sikh youth website dedicated to preaching the main principles of Sikhism, not a website dedicated to prove the passive/aggressive or sub/dom relationship between God and some saint, no matter of which religion! Our preach on this website, has to be, that, as the first pauri of Japjee Sahib teaches, humans in order to get out of the maya matrix, need to move by the Will of God, pure and simple. Sikhi jeewan is constructed on that foundation and premise. So, if you are really sincere about sharing gurmat gyan/sidhant, then you need to be sharing with your younger brothers and sisters here, how to follow Gods hukum, how to understand it, how not to interfere with it no matter how enlightened you become, and how it helps you to get out of the matrix. Your preach should not be in the direction of using examples to show that man by becoming a saint can avert or delay the Will of God on the basis of compassion or extreme soft-heartedness! If indeed, you other motive is to spell out the power of a saint to shake heaven and how much a saint gets loved by God, then as per gurmat sidhant there is no other gift from God to anyone that is higher than Naam and that should be your preach, full stop! Talk about how God in His extreme delight honours a saint with Naam and no one will criticise you because then you are speaking in the confines of Tat Gurmat. The ability of God to grant his saint Naam should excite and interest you more than Gods hand being twisted by some soft hearted saint! However, my humble advice is that rather than obsess yourself with saints and their proximity to God, focus on living a very simple amritdharee Sikhi jeewan based upon, and revolving around nam, dhan and ishnan. That is where you will meet the God you so desire, not by filling your brains with long kathas from this saint, that brahmgyani etc etc, and all their nitty gritty ways of explaining gurmat sidhant from all sorts of different angles. To be honest, one day, you will realise its just adding on to clutter in your brains and only filling you with a lot of stories and opinions and ego, and knowledge acquired by listening to this and that person. You need to come to a point in your life where you surrender everything to God. Let God and Guru fill you from within, that is where you really need to be heading, if you too wish to become a saint. The end result of listening to the katha of great gurmukhs should not that we become first class regurgitators, but that the words and lifes and examples of esteeemed ''panth de hire'' should help us to become inspired Khalsas who are sant sipahees. That is the real way to honour the great gurmukhs of our panth. SGGS, ang 153, Guru Nanak Dev Jee says ''aap moa, man, man te janea, najar bhei, ghar, ghar te janea.'' Within this beautiful words of Gurujee is the secret of what you are really longing for, and how to get it, so rather than fill your mind with so many words from so many saints etc, just relax , let go and start focussing on swaas swaas simran. The saints you quote have done their job and gone. Now it is your turn to let go of so much mat in the mind, and instead, to learn to be quiet within, and focus on Naam. That is when your real journey will begin. Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj did not leave Sikhi on the shoulders of a few blessed saints before Joti Jot. Rather, Gurujee blessed the institution of the Panj Pyareh to be the main hub and torch bearers of Sikhi, that would birth Sikhi from one generation to another. The ability of the Panj Pyareh to birth countless future Khalsas through Amrit Pahul is THE divine miracle that should be exciting us infinitely more than God's power to postpone some man-made calamity! I dont get inspired by people parading, putting on display, expressing and throwing around a lot of knowledge acquired by listening to others, quoting from all sorts of great esteemed Sikhs. What inspires me is Sikhi inaction. This is not some sort of Sikh intellectual website, but a forum of expression for Sikh youths. Hence, here you should be focussing on your personal experiences as you do nitnem , path, and kirtan everyday and how you practicalise Sikhi in your personal life so other youths of your age can learn from your experience how to put Sikhi into practise in their own lifes. That said, may Gurujee bless us all to live absolutely humbly in the Will of Good. 'tera kia mitha lageh'. And 'mitha lageh tera bhana' and 'jini pechata hukum, tinh kade na rovna'.

My descendents will be known as Dinosaurdil.

This section is for intellectual discussions only.

All these sevas not being doing by women is a direct result of a lack of resources for them to gain the right skills from. Apart from countries like Canada and the UK where still only few gursikhs have the opportunity to do santhiya and even fewer have the chance to learn to do katha, have a look in India how many deray or taksaals do you know of that teach women or encourage women to learn? The problem is that no singhni in India (also to some extent the West) is expected to or even encouraged to do santhiya, learn to read lareevaar, learn to do katha, do maharaj's seva... The shortfall is at the initial level, there are only a few mahapurakh like Baba Jagjit Singh ji that I know encourage women to learn brahm vidiya but otherwise I know of few other places women can go to essentially become "gianis". Quite sad

To the Singh Sahibs who feel let women do any lobbying they want, (i.e. it;s not the Singh's issue/problem, it's the Singhni's problem, let her sort it out) it should be known that history has shown countless times wrong things/bad things happen when good persons do nothing. So much for the Khalsa being the beacon of equality and justice in the world when the modern Singh's filling those shoes have such discriminatory/sexist views!! Mai Bhago was Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Bodyguard!, If a woman could do such an important seva for Guru ji a couple of centuries ago in the face of male domination, why can she not merely do Kirtain/Sing God's praises in Guru Ji's presence now (I.e. the same light/person!!). Singho, the Sikh seeks the light of truth, not the veil of falsehood, fake truths, manmade laws and superstitions. To those who argue a Singhni doing kirtan in darbar sahib will make mens lust go crazy I ask you whether your Guru Ji's way was that of the hermit (to run away from all desires), or the way of the saint soldier who's path is thinner than a thread and sharper than a khanda (i.e. to conquer desires in the face of maya). To those who argue women will get sexually harassed for doing seva I ask you where will you be when this is happening? Typing 'I told you so' on a forum? Where is the Khalsa the defender of the woman's dignity, and where is the Singhni with Kirpan in hand to take care of herself. We must shake the shackles of shame and slavery from our necks Singho. The forces that be have shrouded our eyes with superstitious mumbojumbo so much so that we have started believing it's who we are! Jago!

From the time of baba budha ji to now not one bibi has been granthi of sri darbar sahib hence sri darbar sahib granthis being called ' Singh Sahibs'. I have not till date seen a woman as a granthi of any gurdwara let alone an itihaasik gurdwara. if women really want to become granthis of itihasik gurdwaras, they have to meet the requirements of being able to read gurbani shudh and do katha , etc etc. but personally i doubt the sgpc will take that step as of yet allowing bibis to do nething in darbar sahib. above poster made excellent point - if women are not granthis in normal local gurdwaras how can we expect them to b granthis @ sri darbar sahib? families dont want their sons to b granthis and see it is a low profession job for lazy people, how will they allow their daughters to become granthis? how will women who have to take care of children/family etc be able to be able to take such a BIG responsibility of doing darbar sahib sewa. my views aside, i personally also think sampardas/ sant smaj etc will have big problems with this and be a big boulder infront any woman who wants to do this sewa. bibis can't do kirtan/ishnan sewa how will they do granthi sewa? I think we're putting the status of sri darbar sahib granthi sahib as a v small thing that ne1 can do. well that is far from the case. To become granthi sahib of sri darbar sahib one has to be very well educated in Sri Guru granth sahib, Dri Dasam granth sahib, Panth parkash , Gurpartap Suraj Granth, gurbilas etc and be very good katha vachiks in gurbani and all other granths. if bibis want to do this sewa - like ''imakaur'' said '' Before jumping onto the pavitar seva of Darbar Sahib, bibia first need to become active in other gurdwara sahibs.''

This issue has been brought up several times in the past few years. When we talk about bibia being granthis in the Darbar Sahib, I always think, how many "other" gurdwara sahibs have their head granthis / main appointed keertani as bibia inside and outside of India? I have seen a few keertani jathas of bibia, seen bibia who do occasional keertan seva in local gurdwaras and also seen a bibi doing katha, but I haven't heard about many doing the seva as the main person in any gurdwara sahib. Before jumping onto the pavitar seva of Darbar Sahib, bibia first need to become active in other gurdwara sahibs. And, it would look better if bibis were taking more interest in this topic. lol

How about we just let the bibian raise this issue? By all books, there are no restrictions. If bibian really want a particular sewa then they have to work for it and earn it. Also, such issues need to be raised by those who live locally rather than someone from other country (huge cultural differences). Without any offense to all my brothers and sisters.. It is a shocking reality that our sisters in Punjab are not active anywhere in any field. How many kaur activist we see today (both here and there) ? Take a look at this forum, how many bibian we see discussing any social or political issue at hand? Either it is all singhs fault for not providing platform or either bibian taking their freedom granted. Bibian and Banday can do any job in our sikhi society however preferences can be given to certain gender in various fields.

Could be...we see many more male Sants than female Sants...

My honest guess is the same reason only a few Singhnian picked up arms and fought. I guess it's because of how much gender roles play a part in our daily lives. I don't think the reason was that they weren't allowed, but that they didn't try. Now if they try i think it's said it is not allowed.

we can read baani any time , but nitnem are prescribed for morning and evening evening baani is rehraas & night it is sohila , its better if we stick to evening time for rehraas , but for practical difficulties , there is no bar, we can do the paath anytime before going to bed , when we are supposed to recite Sohila . Further it is only matter of making it a habit, if we want to stick to the right time reciting rehraas only takes 15- 20 minutes. I remember my childhood days when we all brothers after the playtime would perform panj ishnana and one of us (there were turns datwise) would recite rehraas and all would listen including our mother who used to prepare food alongside after the ardaas our fathe would return back home from work( he used to recite on his way back) then all would eat togather . thus the food prepared while reciting bani has made unique effect on the family ( the rest is left to the readers imagination) It is only a matter of habits and the upbringing we get from the parents I see in the 1469 the same spirit of gursikhi and salute his PARENTS for the sikhi spirit in them and their child I ALWAYS THANK GOD WE GOT SUCH FABULOUS PARENTS , THEY BOTH IMBIBED IN THEIR KIDS THE SIKHS VALUES SO STRONG THAT EVEN FOREIGN LAND COULD NOT POLLUTE OUR IDEOLOGY

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! yes kara can surly used as a weapon if some one tryies to do hoshari first pyar naal tell him pls dont do and if he dosent hears u take that big fat kara and break his head :c: and give him in his hand and tell him to go to the docter and repair it :D