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Any position is acceptable jeeo however chounkra is usually preferred; when sitting, to help posture and ease back pain many tend to sit on top of a pillow/jacket as it levels out your thighs and knees. Leaning against a wall is not against gurmat however it is not recommended as it can make you lazy and fall asleep quicker during paath/meditation. Tying a thick kamar kassa also helps if back problems arise

Firstly baba, I have nowhere to run because I don't run from anybody; what kind of a Sardar runs away ?. And Guroo sahib tells us themselves that they feel pain. Guroo sahib feels pain when we distort the meanings of gurbaanee. Guroo sahib cries when we slander one another. Guroo sahib screams when we forget our rehat and adopt lazy manmukh like habits. Look at how many times in the last year saroops of Guroo sahib have become shaheed and been torn and burnt; all because you and I are too scared to give our own blood, so Guroo sahib stands in the way of the bullet for us, the ungrateful proud sikhs we've become. Btw, somebody making a gandhi video has nothing to do with the avasthaa of panj Sikh. You seem to love bringing up these videos about gays in multiple posts; I'm getting the vibe that you're somewhat jealous of this guy ? (When Guroo sahib gives you a direct hukam to slander and judge another person, then go nuts, as for now, forget about others doing whatever kam they decide to do and build up your kamayee. You're wasting your jawani bruv)

From the age of around 11 please teach your children to learn rehraas sahib kantt! The baanee is very simply written and easy to remember especially for a young mind other baaneea involve chaupai sahib, 6 pauree Anand sahib, Basant Kee Vaar key shabads are also good to teach naujawan alongside the meanings e.g. Jo tho prem khelan kaa chaao ... theraa keeaa meetaa laagae ... deh naam santokheeaa ... prabh pass Jan kee ardaas ... sajjan sachaa paatshaah ...

If all my points have been answered then I have nothing more to say, close off this topic and let the reader decide for themselves rather than having you forcefeed your own opinions to them. As for the keski kakkar subject, that's another topic for another day; and chances are somebody's already started that thread. ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ

Maaf karo jee, I don't care so much for respect as when I see something I say it regardless of who I may offend etc; personally speaking I have realised in my time that sikhs in general have become soft and butt hurt over small small matters rather than the brave, wise, Guroo's faujan that our forefathers were. Most Sikhs, daas especially, don't deserve respect due to not even being able to follow the hukams that Guroo sahib has given us and the lack of pyaar for our own Guroo jee You could also flip the script with this point jeeo; if you look at it from another angle. Guroo Naanak Dev Jee bought Baba Sri Chand into this world, who proved himself to be far from a gursikh. Does that mean we should have done matha Tekh to him? Because he was Guroo Sahib's own blood and flesh? The true Sikh realises that there is no difference whatsoever between Gurmukh, Guroo and Akaal Purakh. The Gurmukh may have all of the power and shakti of Akaal purakh, yet they choose to remain inside of guroos hukam. This was the reason for Guroo Arjan Dev jee and Guroo Tegh Bahadur jee bearing all of the pain of their own shaheedian, rather than using karaamaat to save themselves! An Amrith Sanchaar shouldn't be planned to finish at a certain time jee; if you have a set time to finish, then you run the risk of having to rush, which may result in parts of explaining rehat maryada missed out etc. An Amrith Sanchaar is still one of every Sikhs 4 Sanskaars, so why would you bother rushing? Kes keski is more a matter of opinion jee as there is plenty of evidence supporting both, the more the better right? however I do believe that a wearing a dastaar, in public at the very least, should be mandatory for all of us, especially as it's the main part of Sikhi Saroop! Naanak Amrith ek hai dhoojaa Amrith naahi; although Amrith is the same, whether it is made by panj pyaareh doing nitnem baaneea, or forming in the Dasam duaar, or trickling down your throat into the bata of rehat that sits inside of us. However, when physically making Amrith, there is maryada that Guroo sahib has put in place for us to follow; why would Guroo sahib bother making a maryada on how Amrith should have been made if in 2017 we decide not to follow any of it??? There is one way to receive naam in gurmat; and that is for Guroo sahib to show you; hanjee Guroo sahib takes many forms; so Guroo Gobind Singh Jee may give darshan and teach naam jugthee, or Guroo sahib takes form in 5 Gurmukhs (all 5 not 1 or 2 jee) etc "Badal's Maryada" still prohibits 4 bujjar kurehat aswell jee; just because something is in another maryada doesn't make it wrong automatically. Try asking Guroo sahib directly, do Ardaas asking if panj pyaareh may only be made up of Singh's; there's your answer in the hukam! Bibiyan have administered Amrith before and there have been many cases in which the abhilakhees in such Amrith Sanchaars have grown up to be beloved Gurmukhs!

According to Akal Takhat Maryada they give right to women that women can also amrit pahul.

Dear Guest Gurmehar, The following are the 5 Shabads/Keertan, which I would suggest for your query for children in addition to the Mool Mantra Too mayraa pitaa toohai mayraa maataa. Too thaakur tum peh ardaas Tumh karahu da-i-aa mayray saa-ee. Parabh keejai kirpaa niDhaan ham har gun gaavhagay Raam japa-o jee-a aisay aisay The important points in them is that He and His wadeeayee is important, not we(our haume, ego); and above all His Grace, and His Saacha Naao. Sat Sree Akal

http://www.kiddiesangat.com/links/ https://m.facebook.com/Little-Khalsa-140571892643182/

Kira jee, the physical makeup of the first Amrith Sanchaar was all Indians, does that mean a Gurmukh of another race isn't allowed to do seva in Amrith Sanchaars? Jathedaar Bhai Rama Singh jee writes in their autobiography that they had a vision of Khalsa raaj, and in Khalsa raaj there were 5 pyaareh who governed Akaal Takhth, out of these panj, 3 of them were white Singhs, are they unsuitable for Amrith Sanchaar? "This Sanchar is the spiritual birth of a person, woman can also give birth to a person. They give it physically, both of these (spiritual and physical/Miri and Piri) are both halves that can't function without another. Just like a sperm and an egg is needed to conceive a child. The amrit sanchar allows men to give "birth" too, if anything this whole situation allows men and woman to give birth. Thus equality. The problem is people don't look at this Sanchar from a different angle" does the above mean that a women doesn't need to be in an Amrith Sanchaar because she has already given birth physically and therefore doesn't need to spiritually? Forgive me as I don't understand your point here. From what you've highlighted in bold, in terms of chromosomes, the Y chromosome doesn't "kick in" until further on in fetal development up until this point the foetus can technically be classed as female

Panj pyaareh cannot be anybody. Make this very clear in your own head veerjee before adding in your own biased opinion out of hatred of another jathebandi! For Guroo Sahib to take form in panj Khalsa, all 5 Sikh must have no hatred or dubda between each other. Secondly, to prepare Amrith all 5 must be of extremely high avasthaa, preferably 5 jyot vigaasi gurmukhs, yet this is increasingly difficult to find, therefore they must be the 5 highest calibre sikhs around at the time of the Amrith Sanchaar. Think about it logically, wouldn't you rather have 5 jyot vigaasi Singhneea acting on behalf of Guroo sahib rather than 5 singh who just about keep away from doing bujjar kurehat? If a Bibi is of higher avasthaa than the Singh's then what is there to stop her from doing seva of panj pyaareh? Before the human sareer is fully evolved in the womb weren't we all female? In Dharam raaj's Darbar, men and women alike are given equal sajaa, because there is no difference! Remenber that Guroo sahib was the only preacher of faith who expressed total equality in their time, so why would it stop at Amrith Sanchaar seva?

As we all know there are no Sikhs in the British Parliament - a blatant testimony to Sikhs being marginalised at the expense of other groups. If even the second strongest Sikh diaspora population has no political voice in 2017 it's very worrying for Sikh interests moving forward. Preet Kaur Gill (who is married to an Amritdhari Singh) represents the best chance Sikhs might have for even just one lone isolated voice at Westminster - whilst in comparison there are ten Pakistani MP's (despite the Pakistani population being roughly double the Sikh one). Hopefully local Sikhs support her and other MP's that have stood up for Sikh interests like Tom Watson and John McDonnell. For the Sikh community in the UK to be punching at it's weight there should be at least 4 Sikh MP's in the British Parliament out of 650. In contrast, in Canada, 19 MP's are Sikh out of 338 (5.6%) and even the Defence Minister is a Sikh along with other cabinet ministers.

Turban ban and restrictions on wearing Sikh religious symbols across the world often make news, but in Australia, a school principal and a teacher tied five-year-old Sikh student's patka (Sikh head covering) after it was accidentally removed by a fellow student. http://m.timesofindia.com/city/amritsar/in-australia-principal-and-teacher-honoured-for-retying-sikh-students-patka/articleshow/58715143.cms

Having Guroo sahib place their hand on your head doesn't make you perfect that's why jee. Everyone in any jathebandee is capable of committing a kurehat and we all fall. Some fall harder than others. Yeah naam can be revealed to you by Guroo sahib but it's only a very lucky few who can keep aath pehar simran going on in their hearts from that moment onward; it takes some of us lifetimes to work up to that level hunna. I also know of many youth today that claim to be akali nihangs and vidvaans of taksaal, I could probably name up to 30, who are twice as young as the guy you're on about and are doing gandhi kam twice as bad as that; sort them out aswell if you're going to take on that role of exposing these people, so don't be a hypocrite just because you hate one jatha; and don't harbour hate for such people whether they're bujjar kurehati or not. Gurmukhs get to a stage in their jeevan where upon having someone's darshan, they can read all of their karams and all of their thoughts, past present and future; yet the thing that makes them Gurmukh is that even by knowing the deepest darkest parts of ones soul, the Gurmukh will still never hesitate to show hat person pyaar and do their seva!

Boy, that was penduism at its finest..... I was just waiting for someone to shout out 'Bwaaaaahh! Chuckhduun! in the middle of it all.

Chaupai Sahib http://beta.igurbani.com/shabad/13477?verseId=128670

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh Posture persay is supposed to help a person focus. At home change positions as n when required but in Sangat follow convention. Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh

BigTera is right. The darbar of the Guru should look kingly. Full of elegance. Not mismatched colors. Gurudwaras should maybe hire interior designers. Its much worse some places. In our gurudwara the walls are not even left white they are painted crazy designs. Some painter guy came from india and hes been doing all the designs for the gurudware, so we have blue patterend walls with gold borders. Our langar hall is dark burgandy stripes. Its a mess. I like how the bulandhpuri gurudwara and 3HO are going all white. I think only blue and white should be allowed for the sant sipahi aspects. Also we need to tone it down with the gold. Someone said a hindu temple looks like a firework of color went off and thats how our gurudware are starttin to become. Looking more like hindu temples esp with all the red n yellow. And those marigold haar everywhere. We have gurujis saroop at home and we use simple comfortable cotton for the rumalle with a beautiful border looks much more regal.

How can Muhammad be allowed *MORE* than 4 wives as well as unlimited sexual slavegirls but in comparison ordinary Muslim men have to make do with *ONLY* 4 wives and unlimited sexual slavegirls?

err thats my whole point. Gurdwaras dont need to be over bright and colourful it is what is inside that counts. You are just repeating what I said. But yeh to sum up. This was a simple topic. Yet as always people have complicated it and brought in their own philosophies.

Im sure the Guru would prefer a clean and pure sangat instead of any flashy colours and lights. If you need these to make you feel that your in the presence of the Guru then there must be something seriously lacking within you. Remember the Guru does not care for wordly and materialistic things and nor should you. It reminds me of some that have big chuncky karas made of gold or earings and khanda chains. The guru does not care about all this. He cares about your deeds and what is inside. Live a simple life my friend or you will miss out on all the heavenly glory.

And to many colours good or bad? Would you decorate your house like a rainbow? Or would you keep it plain and simple. The best things in life are simple my friend.

You just contradicted yourself. On one hand you say it should not be dull and be colourfull. Then you say you dont go to Gurdwara to see how it looks. If you dont go to see how it looks why make it colourful?

I am not talking about outside life. I think you have missed the point. This is about inside the Gurdwara not colours in everyday life. Such as the colour of your clothes ect. The Guru and God is so special There is no need for exhoborant decorations. The Gurdwara were the SGGS is kept does not need any special colours. A simple SGGS is enough. Why do you need so many colours/decorations ect to make it feel like your in a special place. Places of worship should he basic and simple. This should not be some kind of disco with flashing colours and lights all over the place. It just make it look fake and futher away from God. I like the inside of the Southall Gurdwara simple decor. The SGGs is all you need. It shoud not be like going to some nursey type building. With pink carpets, flashing lights all over the place. All it does it make it look childish and anything but a place of worship. If you need all this fake and sparkly colours then there must be something wrong with you or something lacking in you that you need all this colour to remind you of God. Im not saying go the other way and that there should be no colour at all. There should be a balance.

That's the best proof we should all be Kaffirs rather than believers in Muhammad

I don't know why you always gotta lie and try to slander the Canadian Sikh community. It's your Muslim brothers that are most hated in Canada not Sikhs lol

That's the entire comedic genius of it. Lol

Mega lol. Hilariously superb satire. Talk about laying it on thick. Only one way, jagsaw, it could have possibly been topped. Perhaps, if it was, actually, in any way, true. Just a small pity then that it's entirely off. Before you launch into a massively hysterical rant, make some attempt at the very least to get your subject right. Lol

The term is "crab bucket mentality ". It is because when one person rises above it shows deficiencies in others.

That's the problem with our community, no matter if somebody has positive qualities, they will always belittle them and look for faults.

Her father was a prominent member of the Sikh community in Birmingham and did a lot of good in his time as president of Guru Nanak Gurdwara in Smethwick, she seems to be following in his footsteps which isn't a bad thing if you ask me. I would reply to some of the things "Guest Jagsaw_Singh" has said but to be honest, i can't be bothered, it's an age old problem we have in out community to pull people down.

Jagsaw don't say anything online behind a keyboard that you wouldn't say to a person's face. You come off as an unhinged weirdo. Stay classy bub. It's not what you say it's how you say it. Akul vi koi gall hundi ah

Same here I've seen her active on twitter challenging punjabi atheist liberal cuck sunny hundals anti-sikh remarks and tweets. You can tell she is a proud Sikh woman who is interested in communities issues unlike some past MP's (parmjeet danda, paul uppal, marsha singh, piara singh khabra) and council candidates who looked Sikh or said they were Sikhs but did nothing or say hardly anything positive on issues concerning British Sikhs or Sikh nationalist causes. If we compare and contrast with British Jewish Mp's they are staunch supporters of jewish zionist Israel and unashamed of that fact and it was the british jewish prime minister benjamin disraeli that was able to do secret deals with other world political and banking leaders back in 20th century to create israel out of Palestine. We need more Sikh political leaders with sikh nationalist mindsets so we can progress to safeguard our communities future.

Comrade Jagsaw should be pleased because she is a Labour candidate. Jagsaw is a Labour man through and through. In some Labour seats they have a woman only shortlists. The seat she is contesting is one where the previous Labour MP is standing down. This is the same with the Slough Labour seat where it was supposed to be a woman only shortlist for the Labour candidacy but they have chosen a turbanned Sikh in the name of Tann Dhesi. Both Tann Dhesi and Preet Kaur Gill have cut their teeth in local politics as councillors so it is a great opportunity for them to move onto the next level. If both candidates win their seats we will have the first female Sikh MP and the first turbanned Sikh MP. I have seen Preet Kaur Gill's tweets and I am confident that she will fight for Sikh rights. She has challenged the likes of Sunny Hundal on twitter over some of his articles.

I wish her all the best in her endeavours. It's only the constituents of Edgbaston that can vote for her anyway.

I might have been wrong about her husband being Amritdhari. But she still represents the best chance Sikhs might have for even just one lone isolated voice at Westminster. Jagsaw would you rather see a Pakistani MP in Edgbaston or a Sikh one?

I think she would be an asset for British Sikhs, I have seen some of her work helping in Sikh causes in the UK and internationally. She should get the Sikh votes

I do not believe at all, all that rubbish about kaam, written in and supposedly said by Allah. This rubbish is the work of the foolish, who maybe under the effects of narcotics had distorted visions of the divinity. I am a sikh and not a muslim, but I do not at all believe that which has no sense, and which in order to be highlighted, is said that it was by Allah, shame on all of them. Allah is also known as Noor, so if Allah is Noor, and the soul is a ray of that Noor, where does all that sex=kaam come in between? Kaam, krodh, koor,... is the product of mind, not of Allah. This stupidty, is the work Shaitaan, not Allah. it is a pity, how the blind fanatics are distorting with their thin mind, the reality and divinity of Allah, thus not leading the souls to Allah, but deep into the hail. Then too, while comiting crimes and atrocities, they pridely say Allah hu Akbar. Allah is great, there is no doubt about it, but why to pronounce it and commit sins? Allah is not realized by just saying Allah hu Akbar. Allah as any divinity, is realized, by virtues of purity and humilty, and deep love for It. If Allah created muslims and is for muslims, then who created the other beings? If there are any other gods than Allah, why does he not fight them and win over them? Why does he need the foolish to fight and convert others to islam? Is he so weak, that he needs the aid of mere stupid humans for his purpose and engage them in heavy "paaps"? Just sickening all this nonsense, and how the fanatics manipulate the teachings and limit the divinty to their polluted minds, and make the divinty as a part and parcel of their madness.... The world rejects not muslims nor islam, but the foolishness they use to cover themselves to commit atrocities and crimes and against humanity.... I do not know much about islams nor muslims, but,Sikhee, has made me a balanced human being, and sharpened my sense of discrimination between what is right or wrong... this is the greatness of Guru Jee and Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

OK, I'm with you there, as that's also what I stated. This is where I get off. I am intensely uncomfortable with forced conversions. If that's our policy, what's the difference between us and the Muslims? What's the point of Sikhism anyway, then? Also, there is quite a difference between saying X happened vs. saying that X is official Sikh policy. A lot of people come on to this site to learn about Sikhism, including young cultural Sikhs. If they read that we support doing the exact same thing as Muslims, I think they will definitely think, "Why should I become a strong Sikh?" So that's the reason I'm portraying the sack of Sirhind as having been done by the followers-on, not as a official Sikh policy.

Right, this just confirms what I stated: that there were loads of people who attached themselves to the invading army for the purpose of loot or revenge. BTW, even if you were quoting/reading Sikh historians, there are plenty of Islamophilic Sikh academicians whose histories are based (in the end) on Muslim sources, which would naturally play up the level of mayhem, bloodshed, and pillage, and also place the blame solely and squarely on the Sikh faith. Case in point: Dr. Fauja Singh, relying on Muslim sources, actually portrayed the execution of Guru Teg Bhadur Ji as just because the Guru was a brigand! Sirdar Kapur Singh, using authentic sources including Bachittar Natak, forced him to recant.

I wouldn't put too much faith in "history" derived from accounts by enraged Muslims. They were enraged not that Sikhs forcibly converted Muslims, but that forcibly converted Muslims could go back to some other faith (including Sikhism, Hinduism, etc.) without the Islamic death penalty for apostasy being enforced by the power of the State. Secondly, the sack of Sirhind was conducted by followers-on who attached themselves to the invading army for the purpose of looting the city or for revenge. This happens (or used to happen) in most every war.

"Instead of advocating that young Sikhs catch flights to Delhi to begin armed struggle we need to be sensible. We need to form jatha's at pind level that drugs are not openly sold and consumed and keep a lid on alcohol sales and consumption. Instead of giving money to dubious organisations advocating armed struggle verbally (but secretly unwilling to leave their luxurious lives in the West) we need to prioritise young Sikh children in Punjab actually getting a good education and becoming literate as only with educated youth will the Panth's future have the knowledge to avoid being treated unfairly as illiterates are at disadvantage to GOI bureaucrats. So long as caste divisions in Gurughars exist and people continue to support or tolerate matrimonial apartheid then there is no realistic prospect of overturning GOI discrimination as divide+rule tactics can easily be employed on weak caste-minded people. Money needs to be invested in Punjab by overseas Sikhs in order to generate employment for the youth as each job can uplift a family out of poverty. As so long as Sikh families struggle with daily survival it will be too hard for them to think of anything else. Overall India's economy is now growing at a faster rate than China's whilst Punjab continues to be a laggard economically. The weaker Punjab is economically compared to those that discriminate against Sikhs the weaker our ability to combat their anti-Sikh discrimination. The Sikh fetility rate is below replacement level and female infanticide is at disgraceful levels in Punjab. On top of that Sikhs have internalised Hindutva propaganda that only Amritdhari Gursikhs (around 3% of the Punjab population) are Sikhs so that anti-Sikh forces can define Sikhs as a permanent democratic minority. Only by including all Gurdwara Sangat and all sehajdhari Sikhs within the Panth will the Sikh Panth ever have a democratic voice. The Sikh Panth needs to ensure the democratic removal of Badal in 2017 and the best party currently with which to achieve that is the AAP given how all 4 MP's in Malwa are AAP. We need to lobby for H.S. Phulka Ji to be given the AAP Punjab Chief Minister ticket for 2017. I genuinely believe 5-10 years of leadership by a sincere Gursikh like H.S.Phulka can transform Punjab and strengthen the state of Sikhi in Punjab. Before too many start fantasizing about taking one way tickets to Punjab to launch armed struggle against a terrorist state with 1000 times greater resources and ammunition which is backed and supported by the USA, Russia, UK, Canada, China, France, Australia for trade and business reasons, we need to not take our eyes off the fact that Sikhs are projected to be a minority in Punjab by the time of 2021 census due to the Balmiki and Dera Ballan apartheid mandir franchises aiming to convert 5 million Sikhs into tomorrow's Hindutva votebank (as Doaba is already an area of Punjab where Sikhs are now a minority)." -SukhaSinghMehtab2015 What he said is very true indeed, all of that needs to be fixed before people try creating Khalistan.

And the fact that mythologizing narratives was an accepted practice then should be enough to dissuade one from thinking that the Panj Piares were some incarnations.

If I remember correctly, Dhumma was a minor player then but one who sold his soul to the authorities along with Jasbir Rode and Dr. Sohan Singh.

Gurbani by atleast 3 of the Bhagats in bold and underlined above exist within Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, from the time of Guru Arjan Dev when the 1st beerh was scribed. Meaning, these bhagat were already in sachkhand. Prove that Bhagats who were already in sachkhand by Dasmesh Jee's time, had to be reborn!

UKL = You're absolutely right Paji. The Hindu's and Muslims despise Sikhi and the Khalsa Panth because they can see that the Khalsa Panth is about true equality and brotherhood. Nowhere in the history of India and Pakistan can it be seen that those of oppressed backgrounds made up a majority of the armed forces. To this day the Indian and Pakistani armies are composed of mostly so-called high caste officers with only cannon fodder ranks seeing Dalit or low caste Muslim representation in India and Pakistan respectively. UKL = I agree with you that anti-Sikh criminals like KPS Gill, General Brar, Dera Sirsa wala Sidhu and the Radha Swami Dhillons all hail from the Jatt tribal identity. But equally we must respect all those mahaan souls whose ancestry was from the Jatt tribal background prior to initiation in the Khalsa Panth. So I think the bottom line is that anyone who sees themselves as a hyphenated Sikh does not have 100% loyalty to the Panth. Jonny101, N30 Paji and Singh559 were all Jatts prior to becoming Amritdhari and I couldn't be more proud of them for abandoning their erstwhile cultural identities in contrast to so many in Punjab who have failed to do so even in 2013. UKL = You're absolutely right that Baldev Singh and his cohorts influenced the 1940's SRM towards defining a Sikh a certain way so as to deliberately exclude tens of millions of erstwhile non-Punjabi (overwhelmingly Dalit) Hindu brothers and sisters from joining the Sikh Panth at the behest of their Congress and RSS allies. UKL = Paji jeri Qaum de Gurdware bande ho'ay ne na ... oh Qaum ki karoo ... sab tho paila sanu harek pind te harek ilaqe vich ik saanjha Gurdwara chaida Sangat vasthe ... je assi es kam nu na kar sakke 2021 thaq ... saade RSS dushmana ne sanu East Punjab minority banaa dehnai Delhi di sahaitha naal. UKL = There is a deliberate reason why the RSS and Congress/BJP are afraid of the population of Punjab having greater knowledge of who Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji were (because all their multiple 115 crore Balmiki Mandirs would collapse under the weight of truth) because only the Panth knows who was the bravest. There is a reason why Congress and Dera Ballan are scared at the mention of Shaheed Baba Sangat Singh Ji and how Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji appointed him commander of the Sikh Fauj against the murderering soldiers from the Islamic Empire because the lie that Dera Ballan propagate is that Chamars cannot be Sikh (whereas the Truth is that only Sikhs are true Ravidasia as we bow before Shabad Guru before Congress and the RSS concocted this rival ghost-written so-called bani and a creed that rejects everything that Dhan Dhan (Gur) Ravidas Ji Maharaj stood for. Everywhere in Sikh history our enemies look they will find esteemed Gursikhs of various backgrounds who all had one thing in common - regardless of their individual family ancestry, none had pride in the such ancestry (as Guru Sahib emphasised "kul nash") and recognised all humanity as one equal family. The minute we ordinary Sikhs start to follow in their footsteps and destroy all apartheid thinking within the community our Qaum will once again be unstoppable in marching towards Sarbat Da Bhala.

great article but i want to add something more which is so true.. 1)..Panj pyaaras (most of them were Dalits (scheduled castes) . 2) When sikhi formed .. first of alI it was embraced by lower caste people but ememies of sikhi,,after dasam pitas time... conquered sikhi in their hands and Unha ne hawaa idda di chalaai ke sikhi came into the hands of upper caste hypocrite people for example FUDDU punjabi jatts. 3) when banda bahadur was sent to punjab by Dasam pita from Hazoor sahib..He had a letter (hukumnaama) in his hand written by Dasam pita explaining "ki jado tak main punjab vaapas nai aunda tusi banda bahadur di aguvaai heth reh ke mughala de khilaaf jang jaari rakhni/" .But no one believed on that hukumnaama...As a result Dalits who became sikhs later helped him at great extent. 4) B.R.Ambedhkar (producer of Constitution of India) belonged to Dalit backward (chamar hindu family )..But he clearly stated " Main Beshak hindu pedaa huya but Main hindu rehke maranga nai." He was impressed by the Sikhism . He said he would convert himself into sikhi and most of the dalits would really follow him..As a result He went to amritsar to have Amrit But he was totally refused by Corrupted Jatts/khatri who were in the roop of sikhi..Just because He was chamar...then later he adopted Buddhism. but He did not leave her hope and He used to say Sikhism is a great religion He had seem so far and He always emphasized on saying his community to convert themselves as Sikhs... 5. now Today the mistakes done by those people we are facing them..Inha hi nai Asi aje b nai hatde paye..Asi aje b apniya jadhaa waddan lage huye a....EK oh c jedha apna sab kuch waar gyaa is jaag to...unhe khalsa sajaaya ke gidhardha to sher ban jaan ,uch neech da turya braminwaad khtam ho jaave...neeve lokaan de sir te b paag a jaave...us bande ne anandpur sahib saare ikathe kar dite c..te aaj jado khalsa sathapna diwas jado aunda hai ta Asi sikh log muh chuk ke anandpur sahib jaan di jagah apne Got(castes/gotras) nu mathaa tekan tur pende a....inha hi nai uthe nishaan sahib chadha dite..guru granth sahib b rakh dite.....hai sanu koi sharam beshak nai.... Sikh ta koi apne aap nu aaj singh ya kaur kenda nai..koi dhillon bani firda va koi sandu, koi johal, koi sidhu, koi bains. bas ahi reh gyi saddi fuddu mat....... Gurudwaare bnaa ditee jaata paataa de adhaar te.......

Koi = Bhai Sahib, while I do not entirely disagree with your notion that "our Bhagats who were completely mukht from duality were incarnated again", I believe you've missed the point: Gurmukh Aaye Jaaye Nisang. Gurmukhs can come and go as they please! You're right, they do not have to come again, they choose to. UK = I agree with the essence of what you mean to say Koi Paji. I merely disagree that they happened to come back as stated in your previous post. To me it very much devalues the bravery and Bibek Buddhi of our Panj Pyaaray. Furthermore, billions of poor people living in slums exploited by today's Capitalist Mughal fatcats and tens of millions of HIV orphans and billions of malnourished children around the World ... if ever we needed more Gurmukhs the time is now. Koi = Again bro, I think you've misinterperated my point. I only mentioned the Bhagat Kabir incedent as it is mentioned in Katha of various mahapurash (Sant Isher Singh JI Rara Sahib etc.) and other sources. UK = Personally Paji i find it hard to reconcile myself to Sants who make such striking presumptions regarding our beloved (Highest of the High) "Authors" (if we can even call them that) of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. The truest definition of Mahapursh are our Bhagats. Koi = As for your "Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj had to come back for Amrit", if you believe all Gurus to be one in the same, then they did take amrit in their tenth form (not to mention taking Charan Pahul from Guru nanak Dev Ji, goes without saying). UK = Absolutely, our Guru Sahib are the same jyot (which includes Kabir Ji Maharaj) ... but that's why I referenced others citing such arguments against us and how offended that would make us feel. By the way I don't believe that Pahul was administered by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the form history books would literally have us believe but that is a small point in the wider issue. Koi = Brother, please can you tell me what your take is on the 17 Bhatts being incarnations of the 4 Vedas (4 incarnations per Ved) and Brahma? This is from the Faridkot Steek, Sampardaaee Steek (Ameer Bhandar), Katha of various Mahapursh etc. UK = In a literal sense of physical reincaranations, I don't believe in it. In a metaphorical sense, yes Bhatt Bani does encapsulate the percentage of truthful essence contained within the Vedas. UK = Frankly Paji, i have to respectfully say to you that I regard this as an insult of our Sahibzade. Indar was a rapist, was he not? Koi = I did not say that I endorse this view at all, it was just a point of belief of some Akali Nihangs. Koi = As far as Indar goes, please could you provide the example? UK = Thanks for clarifying Paji that you don't endorse the viewpoint of certain Nangs who rely on cannabis as a means of avoiding practical warfare in today's day and age. Regarding Hinduism famous Indar Devta, yes I understand he raped Ahalya - whom Brahma had created as the wife for Gautam Rishi ... so the Nang Niddar type ideology linking Hinduism's famous Indar Devta to the Sahibzade is quite clearly utterly ridiculous. Koi = Bro, while I respect Chowk Mehta Taksal, please don't assume that I took the reasoning directly from there. UK = I accept what you say Paji as obviously Chowk Mehta Taksal are not the only jatha that hold the similar view. Koi = While I have given questions here, I appreciate this may derail the original thread. As such, if UKLondonSikh Ji (or anyone else) would like to continue the discussion in that direction, please can I suggest the opening of a new thread? UK = Actually Paji, it's all good so long as the discussion is with pyaar it all helps disseminate the OP more widely that Sikhi is not a Punjabi faith so no worries :-)

Fateh ji, I agree wholeheartedly particularly with international fauj. I am glad there are people who agree that we need to see the bigger picture. What practical steps can we take in out lifetimes to make progress towards getting the panth to realise its potential? Do we need leaders to unite in a top-down approach to changing attitudes or should it be a grass-roots campaign to educate and motivate the youth? How can attitudes be changed? I was once told by a brother sikh that if I was so interested in preventing genocide in Africa, that I should get a gun and go; that it was none of his business, and a sikh charity I spoke to sounded confused and indeed angrily defended their work when I asked them what they're doing outside punjab/delhi, etc. I suppose however the urge to help humanity andaro ana chaiyda hun- youth can be brainwashed easily to support many causes, but true sense of righteous duty is given by God to the one who is eager to serve the Guru. Also, I posted on another topic as to how a khalsa run aid flotilla (ships and helicopters) can be used to deliver aid, to reach place of conflict and indeed for relaxing slow transport between continents with gurudwara on board, something worth thinking about.

UK = rrss Paji thank you so much for your input to this topic. I totally agree with what you say but most specifically the part about the World desperately needing a new 21st century Khalsa Fauj to protect the weak and ensure that no Genocides (which numerically have been worse than our own) such as Rwanda or in DR Congo should ever be allowed to happen again. This needs to be instituted via the UN with Khalsay leading forces to help prevent genocides and to assist in disasters like Haiti etc. I personally would not feel comfortable serving in the British Army but I wouldn't have a problem serving in an international fauj with a Khalsa commanding officer and I know that we as a Panth have the potential to do this and to see the bigger picture that we as Sikhs are not the only ones suffering in this world.