Leaderboard

Exactly. This is Guru Gobind Singh Jee's bhavikhbaani playing out. All preliminary steps for the establishment of the Sikh State.

I knew this guy who was one of these righteous do-gooders. You know a busy body type. He was always trying butt into the affairs of the council, involved in petitioning etc. He could be a very useful guy and he always wanted to help the little guy. But he died alone and penniless and no one came into his aid We Sikhs are a bit like this guy.

GREAT share and find!

Photo of Giani Gian Singh Ji Nirmale, author of Naveen Panth Prakash. Credit to @ThakurJanHari on Twitter for this gem.

You underestimate the role this "tactic" played in islam's development and growth - right from its infancy, up to today. Helped it grow from a ragtag bunch of a few of muhammed's slaves, right up to the 200 crore ijjar that it is now. Not bad at all (when correctly employed).

I hear you. These problems are the result of gulaami; we have no state (yet). They have 40-50 states that don't merely teach them political expediency; they put it into practice.

3. He claims to divine the proper pronunciation of ੴ by quoting a number of Gurbani lines. Like: ਏਕੋ ਜਪੀਐ ਮਨੈ ਮਾਹਿ ਇਕਸ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਾਇ ॥ The problem is if here, Gurbani says to japp the Eko (One), there are plenty of other places where it says to japp (recite) Gobind. Or other names. E.g., here Guru Ramdas Ji says to japp Gobind and in the same line also says to japp (recite) Hari! ਹੇ ਰਸਨਾ ਜਪਿ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੋ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਿੰਦੁੜੀਏ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਜਾਏ ਰਾਮ ॥ p541 Obviously, the command is not to recite particular words but to remember God through recitation. There are other Gurbani lines saying to recite Har, Ram, Ramaya, etc. For Basi to take a few lines telling us to recite Eko as a special command to recite only Eko is either stupid or deliberately misleading. He totally misconstrues many verses. E.g., ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ Anybody familiar with Gurbani will interpret it as "Know the Guru and Parmesar to be one". As in the same thing. Instead he would claim that it means that Guru and Parmesar are Eko. Yeah Eko means one, but he's using it as a kind of proper noun.

First of all, it seems "Gulbarg Singh Basi" is another beard-tying rationalist Uncle Ji trying so desperately to make Gurmat fit into a nice Western modernist box. Also he's the head of the "Global Sikh Economic Forum", which, I guess, instead of meeting in Davos like the World Economic Forum, must meet in Pathankot or something. Likely, it's 5 people and a fax machine. Anyways, as to his assertions: 1. He claims he's not the first person to question ੴ . Nirmal Singh Kalsi and Devinder Singh Chahal have as well. Oh, OK, so if Nirmal Singh Kalsi said so, I guess it's legit! Devinder Singh Chahal is also a rationalist "Sikh". 2. He claims Devinder Singh Chahal's made-up pronunciation of ਇਕ ਓਹ ਬੇਅੰਤ is wrong because of whatever reason. But the problem is neither of them have any basis and are just making stuff up. The alleged basis is just pulling out quotes from Gurbani claiming it tells you how to pronounce ੴ. But they don't. They are just asserting that those lines have anything to do with pronunciation. The lines are simply Gurbani principles, not a primer on how to pronounce ੴ. I (and all of us should) reject the notion that the entire Sikh world is stupid and for five hundred years no one knew how to even recite Jap Ji until these jokers came along.

? What do you mean?

That or get rid of the downvote as well

It is ਇੱਕ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ. There is no argument about this. The author of this article is spouting a baseless theory which is frankly nonsense, alongside others who have their own baseless views about the ucharan of ੴ. ਓਅੰਕਾਰ is the primal sound. Here is the first few lines of the ਓਅੰਕਾਰ baani with arths from Prof. Sahib Singh. ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਇੱਕ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ। ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਦਖਣੀ ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਰਾਗ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਦਖਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ 'ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ'। ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਉਤਪਤਿ ॥ (ਹੇ ਪਾਂਡੇ! ਤੁਸੀ ਮੰਦਰ ਵਿਚ ਅਸਥਾਪਨ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੋਈ ਇਸ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਨੂੰ 'ਓਅੰਕਾਰ' ਮਿਥ ਰਹੇ ਹੋ, ਤੇ ਆਖਦੇ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੀ ਨੂੰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਨੇ ਪੈਦਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਸੀ। ਪਰ 'ਓਅੰਕਾਰ' ਉਹ ਸਰਬ-ਵਿਆਪਕ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ) ਸਰਬ-ਵਿਆਪਕ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਤੋਂ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਦਾ (ਭੀ) ਜਨਮ ਹੋਇਆ, ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਚਿਤਿ ॥ ਉਸ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਨੇ ਭੀ ਉਸ ਸਰਬ-ਵਿਆਪਕ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਵਸਾਇਆ। ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਸੈਲ ਜੁਗ ਭਏ ॥ ਇਹ ਸਾਰੀ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੀ ਤੇ ਸਮੇ ਦੀ ਵੰਡ ਉਸ ਸਰਬ-ਵਿਆਪਕ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਹੋਏ, ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਨਿਰਮਏ ॥ ਵੇਦ ਭੀ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਣੇ। ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਉਧਰੇ ॥ ਜੀਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜ ਕੇ ਉਸ ਸਰਬ-ਵਿਆਪਕ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਸਹੈਤਾ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਦੇ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਦੇ ਹਨ, ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤਰੇ ॥ ਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਦੱਸੇ ਰਾਹ ਉਤੇ ਤੁਰ ਕੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘਦੇ ਹਨ।

lol.

What will happen if one or more of the Punj are recruited for subversion?

Are you vouching for a socialist system?

OK, sure. Sure. But a painting painted by a mere man is not "true" (satya). It's a mere representation of something in his mind. And have you ever found it interesting that a painter of a certain school will paint all his paintings in a certain way? That's because that's all he knows how to paint. And as far as certain accouterments or embellishments (such as earrings), that's just what a certain painter supposes that men of a certain era must have worn (not that he would have any personal knowledge--it's a mere supposition).

the kaali they are referring to is the times and their bhes not any antisikh anything . Jaggi is a warrior because he is fighting the ideological war against the rewriting of our history but previously you've given the impression unless Sikhs are saintly babey who do only bhagti they should be described as anti-sikh .Get over this allergy to shastar because there are many good reasons to have initimate knowledge of their use that includes the shastar of the Mann ,the Word, and the hands . You are seriously off track if you believe Bush is praiseworthy ...just go back and really learn geopolitical aspects of history because you sound foolish.

Agreed, but the hukum is not for assassinating people who merely slander Sikhs or the Gurus. As shown by 200 years of Gur-itihas, the hukum was not to kill people who speak against Guru Sahib. There were many slanderers of Guru ji (such as Pirthi Chand and so on). Guru Sahib did not direct that they be killed (unlike the circumsized Prophet, who called for the murder of a poetess who wrote against him). In the music video above, though, it starts off by the guy saying "I killed the thanedar (police station house officer) because was speaking anti-the Guru". That would not be allowed in Sikh ethics. It would be better if the song had portrayed the singer as having killed an actual violent monster who had escaped justice via a corrupt and oppressive system.

Agreed. A person that comes from either a non-Sikh, non-Punjabi, or non-Indian background, or even a young Sikh that doesn't know that much about 1980s history, will see this video and just see a bunch of toughs waving rifles, and will think that these are just people that seem to want to kill for the sake of killing. They'll have no idea why these people are so upset or angry to pick up rifles. On the other hand, if the video had shown scenes of desperation, terror, violence, etc. perpetrated by Indira Gandhi and her cronies, the viewer could have had some empathy for the plight of the Sikhs. Once you have that empathy, one can understand why desperate people might pick up weapons.

Gangsta culture is as alien to us as Punjabi culture is alien to black gangstas. So why do we emulate their ways?

OK this is video for der yoof who know next to zip about 84 or Khalistan 1. It's a fail on one major level because it doesn't highlight the continuous struggles and victories from time of Guru Har Gobind ji and linking that spirit of Garja Singh ji and Bota Singh ji to 78, 84 until now . If they did this der yoof might want to investigate who these Singhs and events were about and realise what they were missing out on . (inferiority complex finished) 2. They are kind of losing their niarapan by monkeying the 'gangsta' uniform and preoccupations with ak47s , a tweak is needed to bring it to sikh ethos 3. Maybe they hope to be the new dhadis on the block Waheguru only knows but if so they need to bring their A game because this wasn't JOSH inducing enough . 4. subtitles may help those youth who don't know punjabi at all (sadly too many) and also new sikhs from other cultures. 5. maybe interleaving Sant ji's bachan to the youth on preparedness especially the one about not waiting for Him to give permission to deal with dusht. An OK starting point but needs more depth to have better impact

The video could certainly have been made A LOT more informative. There was a whole wealth of information that could have accompanied the video that could have explained the armed struggle to the lay person. Recorded statements like those passed by balram kutha jakhar, the 8th speaker of lok sabha no less, pertaining to the Sikh Genocide could have been presented. Facts and figures about the genocide of 1984 could have been given. Figures of the Sikh contribution to the struggle for freedom from Britain could also have been provided to contrast with the treatment Sikhs received immediately from 1947. Bhai Sahib Bhai Kapoor Singh Ji's Sachi Sakhi is a treasure box of information on the subject. Images of indian state torture victims could have been included to show the depraved acts of terror Sikhs suffered at the hands of agents of the indian government during this period, in what was almost always illegal custody, that for some continues without charge even to today (Jaggi is the tip of an iceberg). E.g. How Sikh babies were set on fire and even fed to kingdoms of ants by indian police officers just to end the bloodline of certain families. How Pregnant women were killed just so they wouldn't give birth to a Sikh child. How Singhs like Bhai Gurdev Singh Debu Ji were boiled alive in police stations just like Shaheed Bhai Dayala Ji. How the panth's daughters were gang raped by indian police kuthey like gobind ram in broad daylight and the pind was rounded up and forced to watch. How the jails of mir mannu were resurrected under the directions of kachi dilli darbar. How whole families were wiped out, yet india just went by its business like nothing happened. Tyrants like abdali would have been proud of the systematic genocide of Sikhs. A little research would have revealed names and locations of the victims, there were so many that it is baffling such information is not provided routinely in videos that touch upon the subject of the Sikh Genocide, there are plenty of Amnesty cases on Panjaab that the lay person could be inspired to look up. Factual information regarding what forced Sikhs to start the morcha for their rights in india in the first place is also totally missing. E.g. the loot of panjaab's river waters that continues to today, continued denial of the semi-independent status of the Sikh homeland that was promised to the Sikhs in 1946, article 25 that even denies the independent existence of Sikhi. The blatant discrimination of denial of state language status to saadi pavitar maa boli Panjaabi for decades despite the fact that every other state was granted its local state language. Only for dilli darbar to eventually carve out haryana and himachal out of Panjaab, whilst passing entire swathes of Panjabi majority areas to non-Panjabi administrations. The enactment of TADA, the unconstitutional "law" specifically designed to be enforced on the state of Panjaab in order to suspend the most basic and fundamental human right that any human being can expect of their government - THE RIGHT TO LIFE - enabling the indian government to summarily execute Sikhs for the simple crime of being Sikh, without having to go through the formalities of detention, trial or even charge, providing the butchers of Panjaab, kachi sarkar the ability to systematically cut the panth down to size. Providing the indian punjab police and crpf the freedom to kill thousands upon thousands of Sikhs at will since 1984. The numerous, dozens of link canals that have been dug up in the blink of an eye since 1947 from Satluj to divert river waters to rajasthan and haryana and deprive Panjaab of its only natural resource without compensation of even an anna to Panjaab. (SYL wasn't even the tip of an iceberg, yet some of our people seem to think stopping that has stopped the loot of our river waters. Think again.) The reduction to destitute beggars of a proud kaum by deliberate centralised policies of keeping Panjaab under-educated and reliant on agriculture. Then the failure of the indian government even to provide a sustainable price for the crop it procures by force - a pitiful fraction of the international going market rate at any time - not even allowing farmers to market their produce privately but instead banning them from private enterprise, and even the blatant in-your-face discrimination of throwing Panjabi farmers the pittance of a rate as low as half the price for the staple crop that it pays to those outside Panjaab in neighbouring rajasthan and haryana! Deliberately overlooking the superior educated potential youth workforce of Panjaab in favour of the unpadh backwater of haryana for mass industrialisation in order that Panjaab's economy remains dependent on state controlled agriculture. How the deliberate failure to provide the farmers a fair price for their crop has led to the curtailment of the growth of the panth by forcing farmers to have smaller families in order to have enough to provide a half-decent yet astronomically priced private education to their child, since teachers are non-existent or useless in Panjaab's sarkari schools. How the continued discrimination against Panjabi farmers since 1947 has led them into the vicious cycle of continued debt, drug addiction, and eventually suicide in order to escape such a wretched existence. The counter argument would be as to how much can you fit into a three minute music video. That point might be partially valid, but I would disagree. The video is almost completely devoid of factual information, so at least a start should have been made. Overall, the video is more than a decent effort as a starting point, and is miles better than the gundh being pumped out in the name of "kalakari" in Panjaab. Its main downfall is that it is completely missing accompanying information which would have done a lot better justice to the song. Hopefully, if these Singhs make another music video, they will make it much more informative to the lay person.

A lot of the b1tching simply seems to be about these Singhs being decked out in all black from head to toe. This is a really superficial argument, and is the same as the one levelled against Sikh Unit and others back in the day. Now I don't claim to know the background of these Singhs or where they grew up, but for anyone who grew up in or around a council estate, being dressed out in mostly or even all black was simply the norm for a lot of youth. It didn't necessarily imply gang membership, though those wearing it may well have been affiliated with a gang, and if so usually for their safety. If these Singhs were truly gang banging there's no way they'd be openly displaying their faces in this video, so it's safe to say it all largely appears to be posturing. They also shouldn't be waving around shastars like it's all just fun, though anyone with half a brain would have realised they are merely replicas. But that's hardly as bad as some are trying to make out. Immature certainly, given that I can safely bet none of them are tied up in gang life, but then again this video isn't aimed at the intellectuals of the panth.

LOL If you say so, kakeyo! Stupid argument da lagda, chhittar na khalee tutti'ch pyonke. ? Kal da jammeya kakeya, tu sanu panjaab da santaap bare sikhayenga? Ponki ja kakeya, lagga reh... Vadda aaya judge te jury Karleh update fer. Pesh kar teri navi strategy. Lol

Thanks for putting this video up brother. Singhs have been assassinating dushts since Akaal Purakh Waheguru Jio gave Sachi Sarkaar Chhevin Patshah Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji Maharaj the hukam to raise the panth's army for this very purpose. All of the panth's wars, battles and encounters have been fought for this purpose. If it wasn't for panthic Singhs assassinating enemies of the panth, it's likely many ordinary Sikhs wouldn't exist today. I can't even put into words how Gurbani resonates with the beauty of Akaal striking the living daylights out of dushts. There is nothing wrong with assassinating dushts. In fact it is Har Hukam. There is no plainer way of saying this, but those that don't punish dushts are just disobeying Hukam (I don't exclude myself from this statement). There is nothing wrong with talking about assassinating dushts either. What's wrong is just talking about it, and not carrying it out. Bhagti mein Shakti I have considered and debated these issues for years. Eventually, I concluded that none of these issues can be solved without Khalistan. (Though I know you don't dispute this,) It's the other way around. The main advocates of Khalistan were and are still in the east. Here in the west we are just following in their footsteps. It's not really their fault that Singhs on the ground can't afford to be outspoken though. Lol To be honest, I thought it was alright ?

Also I'd like to say it's a good effort the music producers and singers have talent its not all bad track however. The message is not right as people don't really look up to rudeboys/thugs and gangsters. Maybe criminals or school/college teen kids might... but your average person don't they might respect them or they might out of fear of violence but they hate them and wish them dead really. Armed Sikh shaheeds ....all those good people who carried weapons to defend the faith, holy places and the normal innocent people however they will always be loved and remembered for their deeds of bravery for the righteous and good causes. If you look at the 1980s the intelligent and wise hindu punjabi's knew that real armed Sikh separatists were their punjabi brothers and would never try to scare them or turn their guns on them. Only fake sikh indian intelligence agents or criminals/gangsters (hindutva or congress funded) dressed up as Sikhs would try to do that. Sadly the evil Indian authorities were successful in their policies. That is the difference between great punjabi sikh shaheeds like sant bhindranwale amoung many who was respected and feared by oppressive indian authorities not for his alleged "militancy" but the ideological change he was bringing in Sikh and punjabi society by waking up a sleeping sikh consciousness to change their bad ways (of taking intoxicants, feelings of depression and helplessness, fighting for useless anti-sikh issues, etc) and reconnect with their faith. So he died defending the rights of Sikhs and Sikhi and we can see the stark contrast with low life Canadian punjabi thugs/gangsters like bindi johal who died for only drugs and cash.

Gupt ?

Neither am I, but you haven't half dragged this out, theeye. Like I said, all the best.

bhai ji jaroor, par hor ang naa karee if you really fancy wearing earrings why not go the whole hog, can't you buy like clip on ones and see if they go with your salwar suit? be sure to post a pic so we can all view the transformation

I would return to this point specifically. I believe this is more or less a fact, and one that requires more detailed examination. Two points. 1. I think what you have addressed here should be widely acknowledged, if it isn't already accepted by now. It made sense for the colonisers to do this. The colonisers had the motive, opportunity, and means. Given that 9 million out of 10 million Sikhs left the Panth in the ten years immediately post-annexation, very few Sikhs would have even known Sikhi as it was revealed by Guru Sahiban. This gave the colonisers pretty much a blank slate to dictate a distorted, inauthentic, and politically convenient/subservient form of religion to us. I think the early Singh Sabhias were understandably so alarmed at the rapid loss of numbers in the Panth that they unwittingly played into the colonisers' hands. However, we have the opportunity and duty to correct that. Having said that, had the Singh Sabhias not urgently done what was realistically achievable within the parameters of the critical situation the Panth was in then, you and I may not have known Sikhi today. The reasons for annexation have never been properly examined by the Kaum in my opinion, even until today. The Panth went into a state of shock at this time, and I believe we are yet to fully recover from this. But that is another matter. 2. In regards to the way this induced state of "lullooness" was enforced on us, I think we have to go back much further than annexation to truly get to the root of this. It is my sincere belief that the way the colonisers slyly encouraged and enacted this is analogous to the way the hindu priestly class dumbed down hindu society for thousands of years. They impressed the ordinary and somewhat simple and sincere hindus with their intellect and study, and used that intellectual superiority to preach to them the basic message that; "We know better than you. We know what's good for you, and what's bad for you. Do as we say". The ordinary hindus were banned from learning and advancing themselves politically. This enabled the brahmans to exploit them. And they did that brutally. Different sections of the hindus were each provided disparate instructions in ways to serve the brahmans, be that by fighting and dying for them, making money for them or feeding them. The brahmans termed the resulting disparate classes of society as jaatis. They are what have became known as castes. The ordinary and somewhat simple and sincere hindus succumbed to this exploitation, and this naturally led to the downfall of hindu society. They became the willing or unwilling unthinking pawns of the brahmans. They lost all sense of examination and introspection. They simply accepted what the brahmans told them. "Be honest and innocent in all your doings. Don't study, leave that to us. Keep what you need to feed yourselves and your families and hand over the rest to us". Notice how others, particularly Dalits, who resisted these instructions were ruthlessly dealt with in order to send down a firm message to the rest. The shameful and awful treatment, ostracisation, and consequent killing of Sant Shambook comes to mind. To this day, hindus conveniently manipulate and defend this atrocity with the sort of nonsensical, illogical, mythological bs that is known only to them and is their expertise. The colonisers didn't invent this concept at all. They found, as a result of their research, a religious system that was proven to have worked on the indigenous people for thousands of years. They understood that religion is probably the most effective medium with which to influence a population. They adapted it to suit themselves and deployed it to their own benefit. I don't mean to understate the colonisers' role in deploying this to their benefit. However, it was already there. All they did was ruthlessly take advantage of it. It's still there after they've gone, and to some extent it always will be, because it is and always will be woven into the fabric of hinduism. These problems are intrinsically intertwined. Although this is slightly different to what we were originally alluding to here, you can also see a parallel in the way they deployed the hindu caste system against us in a similar fashion. This can be seen in their propagation of different Sikh "caste" units in the british indian army, each stupidly competing with each other for the affection of the white master, to divide and control us. They didn't invent caste either, but it was the result of their study that they stumbled across the work of bahmans to divide the indigenous people over thousands of years, and that it was highly convenient to them. They simply ruthlessly put it to use. It's what I believe our Guru Sahiban pulled us out of when they banned the hindu caste system and instructed all Sikhs to become politically aware. It's at any rate partially down to the colonisers that we're once again mired in it. But those colonisers have long gone. We now need to look beyond that, and actually get out of this mess. If we don't, I fear there will be grave consequences for the Kaum. We have no right to dishonour the destroyer of hindu caste by hypocritical calling ourselves Sikhs if we don't do everything in our power to remove the stain of hindu caste from the Panth once and for all. This has to go. From our minds, from our mouths, from our Gurdwara Sahib.

I picked up on this. I accept that many did attain Shaheedi. I just don't think that so many of them have been wiped out to render a dire situation hopeless. Or, at least, some of them have come back, lol. There are some forces at work in this mortal existence that can't be rationalised. An atheist would laugh at the whole notion, or more likely, fail to understand completely. But then again, an atheist would laugh at most of Sikh history, if it hadn't already happened.

I think this is true. However, I for one would never seek to play it down or deny it. I believe that the thinking behind this was that a relaxation of government policies towards the agricultural sector would have provided real and tangible benefits which would have filtered down to the the manual labourers working on the farm and the petty peasants owning 1-2 acres or taking them on lease, because let's face it, an outright and overwhelming majority of Sikhs in Panjab were and are engaged in agriculture and the proportion involved during the 1980s would have been even higher. In this sense, I think the panthic committee were being practical to incorporate these into their demands. I sincerely believe this was an innocent measure proposed to make life easier for the overwhelming majority of the Kaum that resides in Panjab. I don't believe that this was at all sinister or underhanded in any way. This proposal practically reflected the demography of the Panth, and to a large extent it remains the case. For an organisation whose members were essentially always on the run and a fire fight away from certain death, they lacked the time and resources to come up with an optimal economic solution for Panjab. I think they simply had to make do with the limited resources they had. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing, but it doesn't always work out perfectly in practice. It is another matter altogether that had these demands been met, the indian national congress funding large landowners owning 100+ acres, their own worst enemies, would have been the first to benefit. But it's a consequence of any fiscal policy designed to cut taxes on the poor that the wealthy will benefit first. In this sense, accusing them of adopting these policies simply out of a sense of "tribal loyalty" so to speak is unfair, and it would have been counterproductive in any case. I can only speak from my own experience, but I am unaware of such a thing. I'd say the worst enemies of progressive segments of rural society are ironically its wealthiest members, who are perfectly satisfied with the status quo and don't wish to rock the boat in any way. It is these casteist elitists that are the real problem, and they should be the object of our ire. I believe they are the ones who bought wholesale into and started the whole superiority complex and separate race bs. As an aside, notice how the very wealthy ones that have the time and money to waste on producing music willingly do bahman's work in culturally propagating this same message through the lyrics of the music they produce on bahman's behest. It has not gone unnoticed how the so called "high caste" hindu elitists control the "music industry" in Panjab, and I believe it is no coincidence that every second track produced there cites the term "jat". Popular music is a powerful medium for propagation of a subliminal message. But given our people's addiction to bhangra, getting them to accept that a message detrimental to the Kaum is being propagated and consequently to exercise some self restraint in relation to it is largely a wasted effort. There needs to be a popular alternative instead. The petty peasant followers of these casteist elitists are simply hangers on who are pointlessly looking up to them to confer some small petty benefits on them. They are simply being exploited. They will turn elsewhere if they are presented with a potentially better system. We should not forget however that the panthic committee promised to recruit only Dalits/Sikhs to all state sector vacancies for the first 10 years after independence. That would have certainly annoyed a certain prominent privileged class I can think of, which means it is no convenient coincidence that their opposition to it was also the most vociferous. Even today, easing economic conditions for the agricultural sector, or paying small farmers a better rate, possibly subsidised by progressive taxation on large landowners, would be beneficial in preventing thousands of suicides. At the very least, they should not be prevented as they have been since india's conception from marketing their produce privately, which is a blatantly negative intervention and a complete farce. Our people are perfectly capable of private enterprise when their hands are not tied. However, the government's attitude to the agricultural sector is not about to change. It views it as a cash cow, and given that its members are to uneducated to know better, they will continue milking them for as long they can. In this sense, rather than waiting for the government to change its tune, mass scale industrialisation in Panjab would be a better and more immediate solution, and is an outstanding and urgent priority. Having said that, we should not overlook the fact the panthic committee were foresighted enough to realise that Panjab would badly require the proliferation of industry. This was a key demand that still hasn't been met some 30 years later. This is blatantly discriminatory as Haryana, probably the most backward state in northern india after UP and one that confers no special benefits other than it being largely non-Sikh, has received the lion's share of industry in northern india at Panjab's expense, even though Panjab has a countload of factors in its favour, such as a far more numerous and higher educated workforce, most of whom are consequently unemployed or underemployed. I think if the whole movement was conducted today, we'd be able to handle it a lot better. But that's hindsight for you, and in any case, other circumstances have changed. Given the level of drug dependency enforced on Panjab's potentially productive youth on a level akin to that deployed to depress the Chinese during british occupation, it is a matter of debate whether we'd have sufficient numbers to rise to the challenge now.

Your not picking up on an important nuance. I said previously, many (if not most) decent, dharmic, self-sacrificing apnay (both rural and otherwise) have achieved shaheedi. I'm talking about the general situation today. And people do play down (or are ignorant) of the economic aspect of the Khalistani movement too. When it was going on, it was directly alluded to. A lot of the changes being asked for, did relate to central government's agricultural policies. Which were obviously designed to benefit the agricultural community. To oversimplify everything that happened along purely religious lines is plain wrong.

Overall I think you hit the nail on the head there. I think much of the lullooness from our lot (that we are both alluding to), has its antecedents from the Christian, Victorian era influenced 'Sikhism' that was developed and promoted during a century of colonisation. The sad fact is, when our lot do get devious, they almost invariably use it to screw another apna over. And they'd readily screw another apna over at the behest of some outsider for patronage, a job, money, hell just to look good too.

I don't agree with everything you've got to say. However, what you have pointed to here is a valid point. Sophistication is not a trait overly associated with our people. I think this is a contributory factor to the way our people are slow to pick up on others' hidden inner motives. We have largely been dumbed down into doe-eyed overly honest innocent kaffirs/malechh waiting to be taken advantage of. I believe that certain elements within the Kaum have deliberately propagated this honesty and innocence via distorted Parchar that has become so common now that it's almost fully accepted. I'm talking about the forceful prioritisation and pronouncement of the virtues of innocence and honesty in all our doings at the expense of sensible and necessary political expediency. I think this played a part in turning some of our people into useful id1ots ready to do the bidding of others, out of a misguided and almost groomed sense of duty, entirely failing to comprehend the concealed inner motivations of those that were and are using and abusing them. What is sad about our people's wholesale acceptance of such shortsighted behaviour is not only that it leaves them at the mercy of predators with no such misconceptions, but it actually flies in the face of Sikhi. We were actually given the hukam to instruct ourselves and our families in Raaj Niti by Dashmesh Pita. Yet we have accepted what is taught to us by fake sants and babas who have never seen a day's fight in their lives. Because for too long we have not been sophisticated enough to practice the art of warfare with concealed weapons and motives, we have failed to recognise it when others like abrahamics and revived hindus were and are doing just that against us. There is a very true saying that it takes one to recognise one. What I wouldn't do, is generalise that all rural Sikhs or "pendus" to use the urban hindu casteist elitist derogatory term for them are easily manipulable and that urban Sikhs are immune to this. I think it's far more serious than that. I think all Sikhs are prone to being used and abused like this. And I think the problem is at the heart of our religious/cultural dissemination.

I think this is what it boils down too. Apnay aren't half as clever as they like to think they are (in relation to other prominent communities/race), and apnay's relativily childlike deviousness gets seen from 10 miles away but other more prudent, strategic communities. Also our people's egos are off the scale, and people DO pander to this to manipulate us. And whilst most apnay are of this ilk, a certain prominent rural subsection of the community have got this problem to some next degree. So that is why we've been regularly subverted with egoist appeals to our vanity: so we are the 'sword arm of Hindus' or defenders of India at one point, or the most fiercely loyal chumchay in the Brit imperial war machine at another. This 'flattery' is just kindergarten level manipulation in my opinion. Even Pakistanis used to do it by referring to us all as 'sardars'. When I was younger I thought this was cool, but when I got older I realised that they were actually saying this in a tongue-in-cheek manner. I don't think it's genetic (I bloody hope not!). I think it is learnt behaviour. Cultural traits. I think the loyal, stalwart hardcore Sikhs achieved shaheedi at some point or another, and we have an imbalance of self-serving, deceitful and disloyal and opportunistic people left now. Plus we've had a culture of sycophancy that's been carefully spread amongst us since the 'annexation' of Panjab.

I can't really speak for the motives of SGPC. I would be careful to keep calling pendu Sikhs thick. Because when it does come to action they won't over think like the erudite Urban Sikhs, they will just act. They will act first and think later.

With Guru Maharajs kirpa , we are trying ... nut no one is listening , as i already mentioned sadly its a numbers game , need the sangat to wake up and provide support , the more people knocking at their door , hopefully they will listen , one or two then they will carry on with their own agenda.

I agree , but do we just let them carry on and say its karma , or do we make a stance and try to educate them , make them see sense . If an individual dont want to then its their prerogative , but i think we should not just let it be but try our best , especially when Guru Maharaj has given each one of us a choice , make a stance where things are wrong , wherever there is injustice , you will see a sikh .

Where there is prakash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj , is it termed as caste based Gurdawara ? .... No Again I think we are failing to understand that where there is Parkash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj , and practices are not according to Gurmat , sikhi principles then :- a) do we just keep quiet and let it be b) try to make a difference and keep knocking at their door . Interesting comment . The Hall is owned by the Gurudawara , daswand of the sangat. So do you not think the hall should be used to tell the sangat about Sikhi , abide by Gurmat principles. In Bradford near a Gurdawara a slaughter house was opened , sikhs rallied, petitioned to get this closed or moved away from the Gurudawara. In fact the Sikhs believe Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj as the living Guru. If in physical form Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was present at the Gurudawara and these things were happening , would it be acceptable ? ( the fact is Guru Maharaj is present , but we dont acknowledge it ) .

Its so sad i know , but the point here is not about whether they are ramgarhia, jatt ,or whatever ... but do we say what they are doing as conforming to the Gurmat Marayada ? The understanding I have is that Gurdawaras are registered charities, Charity commission who register the Gurdawaras as charities have a set of rules and regulations they need to abide by . For example , charity name, the charity structure , who are the owners , what their objectives are etc... This is where you have trustees, committee which should be selected from the sangat , but rather its more of an election , where only members can vote.... then it becomes a numbers game. Gurudawaras commitee, trustees should be those who believe in Gurus teachings and want to provide a platform for the sangat to learn and take somehting away in order to make that spiritual journey. Where these things happen and in this instance meat and alcohol are served in the hall owned by the Gurudawara which is about 50 yards away ? , Should we " the sangat" regardless of background, caste, colour , who believe in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and its teachings to be the living guru for the Sikhs especially in Gurudawaras make a stand or let it be ?

I think its more of protecting your own back. Make sure you dont make the wrong move as we know the people in charge get Solicitors involved , make allegations against you , etc.... but they dont see that a Gurudawara is a central hub for sikhs and non sikhs to get enlightened from the teachings of Dhan Dhan sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj , but they dont see that , they see a building and profit. Sadly its all a numbers game, a few of us have been trying since August 2016 to have dialogue with the management , but they dont want to discuss. Back in 2010/2011 ( see thread attached) response was good . People called the gurudawara made their point , Satkaar committee wrote them a letter , held peaceful demonstrations and got them to stop using the hall from 2011 for consuming meat and alcohol . Now in 2017 same this is happening again and response is very poor. I personally believe sangat needs to apply pressure in numbers , bombard them with their presence be it on the phone, letters or in person, hence why i see it as a numbers game .... in order for them to respond. But the sangats views even on this thread is very minimal , which then makes me think , the cause we are fighting for is it a worthy cause .

You know exactly what the fuss is, so stop playing dumb.

Do both. There was always trouble with the fobs and thugs standing in and outside Glassy Junction and this sometimes led to fisticuffs, which is why it was a relief for all when the use changed to a restaurant. There's a thread elsewhere on here about a white redneck who entered a Gurdwara pissed from a pub nearby and proceed to take it upon himself to try to rape one of the sangat. A Gurdwara's surroundings ultimately affect the sangat. Young Singhs might be able to handle it but we have a responsibility too to protect those that can't.

It used to be a running joke that where there was a gurdwara there would be a pub nearby. Remember The pub (which is now a betting shop) on the corner of Havelock Road? Or Glassy Junction and it's kitchen on Park Avenue. Or how about the Pubs on Soho Road by the Gurdwaras? We need to sort out what goes on inside the Gurdwara's instead of getting excited by a potential meat shop by a Gurdwara.

Useless and unnecessary expenditure like the sort you have referred to above is deliberately incurred by sharabi kebabi committee men in return for kickbacks. Straight corruption at its easiest and simplest. They simply look after number one, which is why they can shell out unnecessary £000's, but can't even organise free Sikhi parchar. There was a case at my local Gurdwara where this exact thing happened two years ago under the old committee. Completely useless, unnecessary, and unrequired work was incurred at the cost of £000's for a car park that was going to be built over anyway. Worse still, the dodgy contractor wasn't even paid from the Gurdwara bank account. This is what made this case even more blatant, contemptuous and offensive than the usual embezzlement of Gurdwara funds. The General Secretary instead claimed he made the payment on behalf of the Gurdwara personally. Yeah right. They took sangat for straight fools. This was their mistake. It followed from his claim that he needed reimbursing. Being the man in control, he then easily obtained a cheque for £000's from the Gurdwara Treasurer, which he paid directly to himself. When the sangat discovered this outrage, the dodgy General Secretary was pursued and proof of the alleged expense was demanded. He was asked to provide any sort of document to verify the expense he allegedly incurred, e.g. an invoice, contract with the builders, or receipt. The old bugger was hardly going to supply one was he? He would have simply incriminated himself. So the old committee sat tight and saw their term out. Evidence was never supplied. This incident was the tip of the iceberg. There is a long history of overpayments to the "old boys" network posing as contractors and using vastly inflated contracts with these budday (and that is meant as a matter of fact not an insult). But the opposition from sangat was too strong, determined and active to take no for an answer. We forced them out at the last elections. This is what corrupt Gurdwara committee Presidents and General Secretaries need. These shady types masquerading in the garb of Sikhs, to steal sangat funds and respect they don't deserve, are unafraid of the Guru and don't respond to brotherly advice or dharam. You have to relentlessly and publicly challenge, expose them, warts-and-all for who they really are, and force them out. This is the only way.

I have already addressed kosher: "A kosher outlet should get the same reception as halal because the meat is still prepared in the sacrificial fashion, exactly the same as the islamic one." Some people might not be aware of this fact. But that ignorance would quickly disappear if they witnessed a chained animal being slowly and sacrificially murdered in the abrahamic fashion. I'm not preoccupied with being accused of anti semitism just for calling out kosher meat, and rightly so. That would be simply ludicrous as it simply doesn't apply here.

This is what baffles me. I tried to find Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Somerset Road on the charity commission website to check its last filed accounts. But in all its years of being open, it appears it has never been charity registered. Why is that? That is shocking if it is the case. The Facebook statement that "the Gurdwara are not currently in a position to undertake either of the above options" makes no sense at all. The property is, subject to due diligence, potentially an investment. It already has rent from the flat above, together with the potential of income from leasing out the shop below, which could alternatively be put to community use. I would like to know the achievable total rent for the property to work out expected yield. At least 10% should be demanded, as I understand this place is on the outskirts of Birmingham rather than the city. However, if that appears viable, it should be bought. I may of course be misreading the entire situation as I do not have local knowledge. If the area is non-commercial, that would have a significant bearing on demand from occupiers and therefore rents. Even if it doesn't make commercial sense, the asking price could always be negotiated, but I see no reason why a potential purchase should be turned down flat. We all know the reserves the bigger Gurdwaras are sitting on. Surely the Council of Gurdwaras in Birmingham should be taking notice?

he has said that it is all his kalpana , not copies ...he also does many many devi devtey , muslim calligraphy and mughal style portraits like shah Jahan , Aurangzeb

I believe you're on to something here. I think replication is a VERY common method of skills development for an artist. That would explain the similarity between images. But as you've suggested, the way an artist might place his/her own personal imprint on a work is by varying certain details like the clothes and colours. An interesting thing for me concerns the portrayals of Guru Tegh Bahadhur. All contemporary and near contemporary images have Guru ji in clearly regal attire and accoutrements (such as a hawk perched on their wrist), a portrayal most of us would associate with Guru Hargobind or Dasmesh pita ji. But I think Sobha Singh's recent, highly popular portrayal of nauvan padshah emphasising his bhagti, totally obliterated the old, contemporary image for the panth.