JSingh

Sorry folks, I am stuck on something really really important that I have to complete and will get back to this and other thread as soon as I get done... may take a while.

Bijla Singh Ji, I have read the justification of your Piara Singh Padam on Dasam Granth in The Khalsa Fauj's post. I have learned everything about you and him. Its like a mona person justifying cutting of his hair by saying, "kesan che ki rakheya, dil saaf hona chahida. sikhi tan andar aa." No matter what you say, that person will never listen. Majority of Dasam Granth's (title NOT given by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji) writings is anti-gurmat, but Piara Singh Ji keeps justifying it by absurd arguments. To me, it looks like Piara Singh Padam has joined with Baba Virsa Singh and Ashutosh. Please do not fall into their trap... and see the reality as is. I have one more question for you. Will you be able to read the writings of dasam granth, such as in that pdf file (Dasam Granth Asli Roop), in front of your family (mother, sister, brother, father, etc. etc.)? If you answer is yes, then I will for you and your audience.

Khalsa Ji, please read the "bani" of dasam granth from the pdf file (Dasam Granth Asli Roop) and can you please explain what you did you "digest" out of that... Would you call it the bani of Dasam Patshah? My comments may be "manmatti", but read the whole triachritr that this chaupaee is a part of and then decide yourself. bhul chuk di maafi...

Prabhjoyt Singh Ji, Jaap Sahib and Swaye are in the first 39 pages and is baani, and same is true with Chaupaee, "Parnvo Aad ai-kan-kara, jal thal mahial....." wali. But the other Chaupee, "Hamri Karo hath de rachha..." is a part of Triachritr. bhul chuk di maafi...

Bhaji, I totally understand where you are coming from. But sometimes when our beliefs shatter, it hurts toooooooooooooo much, but then from that phase of life, a new life is born. Bhaji, as I said before, the only bani that is at question is Chaupaee Sahib. When we read the whole Triacharitr which this chauapee is a part of, you will understand what it is talking about. This charitr talks about sooo much nonsense, its the fight between surs (devtey) and asurs (rakhshash), Sri Asudhuj (as it appears in chaupee too, Sri Asudhu ju kario racha) is a jamdoot who saved surs and had s-ex with durga to save her life when she was fed up drinking asurs' blood. It also talks about a Tapasvee doing bhagti of Durga for 147,000 on one leg and that same tapasvee came in Kaliyug as Guru Gobind Singh. Do you believe that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji did bhagti of this durga for 147,000 on one leg??? Its nonsense. The writer on chapauee is aksing Asudhuj to save his life, the bad guy, the jamdoot. If it were written by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, Guru Sahib would have asked Akal Purukh to protect him, not Asudhuj. There are soooo many other things that I don't have time to talk acout at this moment, maybe some other day.... I say that again, don't believe me, find out urself. bhul chuk di khima...

palamrinder Ji, I totally understand what you are saying and I respect your concerns and views. I was used to think exacly like you about two or so years ago. I was hurt too, but we do not have to worry about anything cuz we have our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. And about 5 Banis, the only bani that is at question is Chaupaee Sahib. Jaap Sahib and Twaprasad Swaye fall under first 39 pages. We do not have any historical record which banis were read during Amrit Sanchar in 1699 by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Some scholors say all banis were read from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Other view is that the 4th bani was Shabad Hazarey, not chaupee Sahib. If we want to talk about what we have been listening from elders and doing what they have been doing, then what is the justification of doing Aarti in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at hazoor sahib in a plate (thaali) with many deevey lit inside it and pouring desi geo in them??? Raagis are singing "Gagan mein thall rav chand deepak...." and another amritdhar Sikh stands in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with thaali in his hands and is doing Aarti justl like Hindus do infront of a Moorti. Bhaji do you think we should keep doing this aarti infront of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at Hazoor Sahib cuz we have been doing it for, lets say, over a century or so???? It was Guru Nanak Dev Ji who taught the pandits that this is not the way Akal Purukh's aarti is done, its been done as Guru Sahib explained in that Shabad. This is just one instance. We can either keep following the old rituals that we are strictly prohibitted to perform and keep following those "banis" that go directly against Sri Guru Granth Sahib's philosophy OR follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and rewrite our history. The choice is in our hands. Whether we do it today or tomorrow, we have to do it. There is soooo much going on. We are all tangeled in sooo much stuff. The only way to get out of eveything and start living a Sikh Way of Life is to follow Sri Guru Granth Sabhi Ji and reject any and everything that goes against it, let it be any practice or any "bani". And finally, I request everyone not to believe me, I may be 100 and 10 percent wrong. Do your own research and reach the bottom of the truth. bhul chuk di khima....

Very good question bhaji. Chaupaee Sahib is not just by itself. Its a part of last Chritropakhyan. We have to look at chaupaee sahib in the context it which it was written. We have to translate the whole Triachritr and look at the whole picture and then we will see what actually chaupee sahib is taking about. Please do not ask me my opinio on it. Extensive research has been done on Dasam Granth and Chaupee sahib by contemporaty scholors. I was also hurt when i found out the truth about these things, but again, at the end of the day, truth is truth, as it always was and always will be, but its only a matter of time that keeps the people in darkness. Now even Professor Darshan Singh has declaired that only first 39 pages of Dasam Granth can be called written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji and we can read them but still this is not our Guru because Gurgaddi was given ONLY to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The Dasam Granth Controversy arose right from the day when it came into existence, in 1734: THE DASAM GRANTH: A view from another angle M A Macauliffe In the year A.D. 1734 while in Amritsar Bhai Mani Singh compiled the compositions and translations of Guru Gobind Singh and of the bards who were associated with him. The compilation was subsequently known as the Granth of the Tenth Guru, though Mani Singh did not give it that title. After Mani Singh's execution the Sikhs took the volume for examination and approval to a village in the Patiala State called Talwandi Sabo, now known among the Sikhs as Damdama. Damdama was selected as several learned Sikhs resided there, and that distant village was also deemed a place of safety. Several intelligent Sikhs were of opinion, that the tales and translations in the volume, as at present found, ought not to have been included in it, for many of them are of Hindu origin, others not fit for perusal, and none comparable with the hymns contained in the Adi Granth. The Sikhs therefore maintained that the Hikayat or Persian tales, and the whole of the Tria Charitar, or stories illustrating the deceit of women, should be omitted, and included in a separate volume, which might be read, not for a religious purpose, but for the entertainment and delectation of the public. While this discussion was in progress, one Mahtab Singh of Mirankot arrived from Bikkaner, at Damdama. He had vowed to kill one Massa Ranghar, a Muhammadan official, who had obtained possession of the Golden Temple, and who used the place as a theatre for dancing women; and he was on his way to Amritsar to carry out his design. Mahtab Singh vowed that if he succeeded and returned to Damdama, Mani Singh's Granth should remain in one volume as he had arranged it. If, on the contrary, Massa killed him, the Granth might be arranged according to the wishes of the objectors. Mahtab Singh slew Massa Ranghar, returned in triumph to Damdama, and Mani Singh's Granth was allowed to remain according to his design. There are many obvious defects in the arrangement of the Tenth Guru's Granth as it stands. For instance, there are several questions put in dohras 201 to 210 of the Akal Ustat to which no answer is given. Chhands 211 to 230 are obviously out of place, and belong to the second Chandi Charitar; and the last Chhand of the Akal Ustat is not complete. The Gyan Parbodh too has been left incomplete. There are besides many defects of arrangement. M A Macauliffe, The Sikh Religion, Vol 5, pg 260. First published around 1900. http://allaboutsikhs.com/articles/dasamgranth.htm The Zafarnama is at the end of "Dasam Granth" is believed to be written by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha wrote in one of his books that Bhai Mani Singh did a very bad thing by bringing in Dasam Granth into Sikh panth. But now here is something to think about this: How can a mahaan Gursikh like Bhai Mani Singh, well educated person who wrote Beerhs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, do such a misleading deed? The contemporary scholors are doing research and declaired that it was not collected and put together by Bhai Mani Singh, but only his name was used to defame him. There is sooooooo much done to us to destroy our originality and turn us against each other. We need to wake up and separate water from milk (dudh chon paani vakhra karna) and bring up the truth and live it...

I am quite amazed at your justification of the bad stuff that is written in Dasam Granth. Most of the Dasam Granth is anti-gurmat, leavin a few pages aside ( only about 3% of dasam granth that is "believed to be" written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji). Nobody is focusing on the words, please read the whole thing and you will get the entire picture. It is soooooooo sad to know that a Sikh (you) is calling it a bani of Guru Sahib. How can you associate the bad stuff written in Dasam Granth with Guru sahib. Do you think our Guru Sahib can ever say these things or use these words???? It is shame for a Sikh to even think of this even in his dream. Please try to accept the truth and face it. Dasam Granth does not contain the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, leaving a few pages aside. Period. Now you will ask the proof? Ask Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Put it on a test and see if it passes..... You will see it yourself..... anyone else still things these things are written by Guru Sahib, please let me know??? oh ya... Baba Virsa Singh does, Ashutosh does, and many other anti-sikh forces do... It is soooooo sad that even Sikhs started preaching the same thing....... Wake up folks and follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and forget about Dasam Granth do not associate it with Dasam Patshah.... I know its hard to accept the truth, but we have to swallow it. Its a painful gulp, but we have to take it...today or tomorrow, we have to do it... Accepting the truth and walking forward is the only way to successful and bright future, otherwise, history will repeat itself, as it did in the past. bhul chuk di khima... [This post has been edited and bad words have been removed]

First of all, this radio talk show should not have taken place. If both of these guys had something agaist each other they should have resolved it when Bhai Ranjit Singh visited canda. Its true that Ranjit Singh admitted what he did was wrong and did not know much at that time, but at the same time, if we take both of these guys' arguments, Prof. Darshan Singh had several valid points. Prof. Darshan Singh asked Bhai Ranjit Singh not to go to any Deewan where there are posters that have "Sant Baba Ranjit Singh" on them and tell the organizers that he doesn't know who "Sant" Ranjit Singh is, I'm Bhai Ranjit Singh and therfore, I'm not coming to this deewan. Prof. asked Bhai Sahib to say these words several times in the talk show, but Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji did not respond to his question, but kept insisting that he did not ask anyone to call him Sant. If people were writing "Sant" word on the posters without his permission, and if Bhai Ranjit Singh refuses to go to such deewans, right from that day, the Sant word will become "Bhai". The entier talk show revolved around two issues, (1) "Dhaarna" and (2) use of the word "Sant" with his name. All the great sants in Sikh history used dhaarna to convey the meaning of a particular shabad, and then read the shabad. These issues have to be resolved at Panthic level and should not become 'radio talk shows'. apologize me if i offended anyone. i'm not saying what i said is right, but thats what i got out of the talk show... people may have different opinions.

“My previous post made it clear what Bhagtee and Shaktee is and I gave few examples. Name of Waheguru on our lips and sword in our hand. 500 years of history shows how sikhs have fought in the battlefield. All of Dasam Granth is work of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. (Bhai Piara Singh Padam)” Bhai Sahib, I understand that Bhagti and Sakti go side by side, as taught by our sixth Guru Sahibaan, Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji. As always, first thing first. We cannot even improve our own situations and conditions, our own people, our own institutions, Gurdwara management, discrepancies in our historical records, and a whole a lot more. We cannot go and fight outer forces when our internal conflicts are eating us up corrosively. Reply to your Dasam Granth statement is give at the end of this post. “understand the purpose of khalistan first before you make assumptions that we have no love for god or we have some political agenda. Guru Ji was strong in simran but he spoke about having a separate country. all religions flourished with countries. Guru Ji turned Sikhs into saints and soldiers. fighting for our rights, seeking justice and securing our future is all part of Khalistan” So you are trying to find a country for those people who are fighting among themselves, who are assigned one path but still traveling in ten different directions? There is always a right time and space for something to happen. No matter how hard one tries, things wont take place before the prescribed time/space. Rather than improving ourselves first and then our community, some of us are going after outsiders for khalistan, which is very absurd. Rather than fighting for khalistan, we should all strive to be khalsa first. Awpu svwrih mY imlih mY imilAw suKu hoie ] aap savaarehi mai milehi mai miliaa sukh hoe || God says, ""If you reform yourself, you shall meet me, and meeting me, you shall be at peace. PrIdw jy qU myrw hoie rhih sBu jgu qyrw hoie ]95] fareedhaa jae thoo maeraa hoe rehehi sabh jag thaeraa hoe ||95|| O Fareed, if you will be mine, the whole world will be yours.""||95|| You don’t want to fight for khalistan and hand it over to sheep and goats , are you? Have you head the sakhi about Guru Gobind Singh Ji and lion skin on donkey? And can you please provide me the reference to Gurbani where Guru Sahib spoke of “having a separate country”? Do you know the dohra we read in Ardas everyday that goes like this “Raaj karega Khasla, aaki rahe na koye……” Do you know what this dohra means and who will rule? The Khalsa. Now you tell me, should we and help others to strive to become Khalsa so that we can deserve to do Raaj, or fight and die for Khalistan? Khalsa will rule ONLY and ONLY when there is Khalsa. Nothing is hidden from anybody what is going on in our community. Name anything and we will get it right on our face. “you make me laugh. you reminded me of a nihung singh. he came to our house and said he was also a "desi doctor". that day my mother was little sick so he gave her some medicine. my mother had the pill in her hand and the nihung asked "feeling better?" my mother said that she hadn't taken the medicine yet. then she took the pill and as she finished drinking water he asked again "feeling better now?" i couldn't stop laughing. the doctor knows better than anyone else that any pill will take some time before the patient starts feelingbette...” I’m glad at least I made you laugh... :doh: Next time, make a smart choice and find a medical doctor for your family... “so you are like that nihung singh” Let me know when you get sick next time “You talk about naam simran but have no idea of how Waheguru works.” Did you learn from Dasam Granth how Waheguru works? “r`b dI c`kI cldI qW hOlI Aw pr pINhdI bhuq brIk Aw” pr AsIN dwixAW dI QW b`ty pw rhy AW. pIhx l`gy vI muSkl qy pIx l`gy vI[ Hopefully you understand the meaning behind it. “Sikhs gave many shaheedis for the true cause and truth has always been victorious but it takes time. fights for independence last long time. more shaheedis Sikhs give stronger the country will be. Great Gursikhs fought for khalistan and gave their lives for khalistan otherwise they wouldn't have joined the freedom groups. poems written by Baba Manochahal clearly show that he was fighting for khalistan” Our Shaheeds are our Heroes and they will be remembered throughout the history and I salute them all. You are just looking at only one side of the issue, but Khalistan requires attention from all aspects that you are not seeing. We will talk about it later below “this is just one example, let me know if you want more. what else would you link them with? congress?” wow.... where did that come from? I respect and salute their shaheedi more than anything I can think of. They were great souls. I do not link them with anything, but with Guru Sahib. Thande dimaag naal sochan di koshish karo bhaji. “maybe you are unaware of our history but shaheedis are backbone of khalsa panth. Shaheedi is the last resort. Bhai Sukhdev Singh couldn't get caught for 14 years. do you think he couldn't think outside the box? if he only wanted to die he wouldn't have lasted this long. he fought the way Guru Ji taught Sikhs. he used every method to serve the panth. at last he gave his life. Bhai Sukha Jhinda gave their lives to energize the shaheedi spirit. Our political fight is fight of Akal Takhat Sahib. it may be dirty to you but pure to me. Sikhs have never fought in anger and never will. it is your misunderstanding so take a hard look at the reality. Our enemies are those who are against Sikhi wherever they may be.” Our Gurus fought several wars, but did not create their own territory or “khalistan”. Maharaja Ranjit Singh was successful for creating the Khalsa Raj, but how long did it last? Do you want to create a Khalistan that will die just like his Raaj, due to our own folks.? Fighting for human rights and khalistan are two different things. Believe me, even if khalistan came into existance (which is totally impossible due to our current situation), our situation will become much worse. We know our human rights were violated, we were butchered and tortured and have to fight for human rights, but these things should not be the only things to consider for the creation of khalistan, an independent nation.. Look at every country’s needs, facilities, airport, medical, machinery, natural resources like diesel, petrol, and a whole lot issues. Do you think Pakistan, India, or US is going to provide us all that? These are only a few things to name and the list is endless. All these and lot more things need to be considered in advance. Do you think after khalistan, India will let us visit our Gurdwaras? At this present time, we need Khalsa and Khalsa Spirit and with these things, Khalistan will follow. In order to achieve the former, we need to reform ourselves, our own community, and our own problems. “The most serious problem is that you are mixing Sikhs and government agents. We need to solve issues for sure but a separate country guarantees that the solution will be reached. When Sikhs called Sabrat Khalsa they talked about issues and resolved them. Only jathedars were allowed to enter and they had to provide a secret password. This way no agents could enter and cause trouble. 13 colonies had numerous problems but they locked up all the leaders in a big hall and solved all the issues one by one. people who fought each other in elections are not sikhs in any way. they were sell-outs. it all depends on your mentality. if you think sikhs will do the way you think then it is not my fault but I certainly would not do it nor do i think other sikhs will do it. only true sikhs can solve the issues not sell outs” I’m glad to see that you have made distinction between Sikhs and sell-outs. We are fighting in our Gurdwaras all over the world, pulling each other’s beards and turbans. We are in a situation that we cannot even solve issues at a smaller scale, how can we solve them at a larger level. If you are saying we need Khalistan to solve our issues, do we need smaller versions of khalistan, mini-khalistans, to solve our Gurdwara issues all over the world? We don’t even know the true version of our history and we have believed what we have been hearing for centuries and when someone speaks out the truth, we, the entire Sikh community gangs up starts bashing him without knowing the truth, and excommunicate him from the Panth. I have done that same thing in the past due to the lack of “knowing the truth” and following the crowd. But when we find out the truth, we regret, as is the case with several people like me. And believe me Bijla Singh Ji, you will feel the same same when you’ll find out the truth about Dasam Granth and other issues later in life. Joginder Singh Vedanti is a very knowledgeable and brilliant person, but he is sold out to Indian Government. Do you think these kinds of Jathedars will keep the secret password to themselves, even after the creation of khalistan? How do you know that jathedars in khalistan won’t be traitors? Things work great in theory, we’ll do this and that, but when we look at the real picture, our present condition, things are pitch dark. The biggest problem of our community is that we are listing less to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and more to the Sants. This is one of the prominent things that have divided up the Sikh Sangat (not the furum) in general. Two Sikhs’ views do not match due to the two different “sants” or jathebanies they have been following. We are going to have same problems in Khalistan. Akal Takhat can issue a Hukamnana, but all Siks won’t follow them due to their jathebandi or Sant they are associated with. We give high priority and greater credibility to the words and teachings of a deredar or sant and less to our Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Sikh community need to be united under the teachings of our Guru and then this flow one day will definitely rule because thats what Khalsa is made for, Raj karega Khalsa. “They [misls] did not die off. They joined each other and established more powerful country. so all jathas need to join together and work things out but to think that issues must be solved before all jathas unite is foolish.” But the question is still standing at the same point. How long did the Khalsa Raj under Sher-E-Punjabi last? Why did it die off so soon, right after him? Who is to blame, us Sikhs or Indian Gov’t? We do not want Khalistan to end up and die just like Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s Raaj after his death. We do not want to make unparallel sacrifices for such a Raj that even the generations of the shaheed won’t be able to see it due to its short-lived existence. Please try to think big bhai sahib. “Why not? It is not my purpose. I joined their purpose and their mission. They fought for khalistan and died for khalistan. Read Bhai Anokh Singh Ji's shaheedi and hopefully you will see how this singh was absorbed in naam simran and gave his life for khalistan. a person can be one with waheguru but unless he stands up and fights for his rights he will be burnt alive in the streets of delhi after seeing his women being dishonored by gangs.” As I said before, fighting for human rights and fighting for khalistan issue are two different things. Creation of khalistan requires more consideration. I understand that these Singhs had unbelievable Khalsa spirit that drived them for a cause, but we also have to look at our present situation too before we think of khalistan as we have discussed above. “and tell me what should the sikhs in france do? they have sharan of Guru Ji but should they not fight for their rights? if yes then that is what Sikhs are doing in Punjab” Sikhs in France are fighting for human rights not for Khalistan that “hey, french gov’t, you have violated our rights and now we deserve khalistan (“mini-khalistan” in France) and we will die for it because we have fighting spirit”. It will be foolish to do that. “I am not telling Guru Ji anything. According to Him a community establishes a country with power. Guru Ji gave us the power to establish our country. we need to use it right.” But first, we have to deserve it, right? Its like a little child who is asking for sweets from his mother, but the mother won’t give him cuz she knows what’s better for her child. If we spend the time and energy that we are wasting discussing khalistan to improve our community, we will get closer to Khalsa Raj, but discussing and fighting for khaslistan won’t earn us a darn thing. “Everything a Sikh does leads to Khalsa Raaj. His naam simran, fights for rights, and justice is everything Khalsa Raaj needs. we can educate others and preach sikhi but then again it is our fight for survival. Whether you use pen or gun, it is a fight. Gursikhs don't sit around and wait for things to happen. they make things happen.” First sentence is just not true. Please read it again. And why not we do what we need to do which will take us closer to khalistan? If you understand that we need to “educate others and preach sikhi”, then why to waste energy to fight for khalistan, but instead do Sikhi da parchar. Fighting and preaching khalistan is never going to get us khalistan. Paani paani kehn naal payas nahi bujh jandi. Paani peen naal bujegi. In the same way, following Sikhi and doing Sikhi parchar will get us closer to becoming Khalsa and then one day, that Khalsa will do Rule. Any major (even minor) decision has to be made from a deliberate and conscious mind, not from an emotional one. Emotional decisions always bring devastation. “We need to educate our youth, bring them into sikhi, get rid of sgpc and establish a new system for Gurdwaras. I agree with all but then why stop speaking for our rights? If you have your own country you can change laws and make improvements but when others control your country you don't have much to say. GOI controls our system. Khalistan is our need for survival. setting up a better system is prereq.” Now you are saying you want to get rid of SGPC, but it was very very successful and did an exceptional job when it came into existence in early 1900’s. What happened to it now? Why do you want to over throw it and create a new one? Now here is something to consider: Do you want to create a Khalistan that will work great in its initial stage, but slow get corrupted, just like SGPC and then you will fight and die to get rid of it and create a new khalistan? Just give it a thought. “This I agree with. The way I look at it: We need Khalistan but before that we need to: 1) Become Sikhs - keeping the rehat given by panj pyare is the bare minimum. 2) Educate others about Sikhi and our history 3) Control our gurdwaras and establish better management system 4) use gurdwara money to setup sikh institutions and take control of our colleges and universities” Ok, but in all your posts you have been insisting about fighting and dying for khalisting from the very beginning and never wanted to reform oneself and our community, but finally you agreed that we need to work on the 4 things you mentioned before we think of the khalistan. Then what is the problem? Why are we wasting time for fighting and dying for khalistan when we see millions of “to do” things lying ahead of us which require our immediate attention and if we don’t do those here and now, we have to suffer unrecoverable damage to ourselves and our future generations because past shapes the present, and present makes the future. Dasam Granth Ahhhh....... what can I say.... Bijla Singh Ji, you are in a major misunderstanding and believing blinding in Dasam Granth. I am 110% sure that you have not read it. Please try to find out the truth about something before reaching a conclusion. You have no idea what is written in Dasam Granth. Rather than relying on someone else’s (Piara Singh Padam) resources, do your own research and then reach the conclusion. I uploaded the pdf file that has some quations from so called “Dasam Granth”. Can you please translate them for me and also tell me if you still call this Dasam Patshah's bani? bhulan chukkan di maafi je kise da dil dukheya hove.... take care for now..... Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Dasam_Granth_Asli_Roop.pdf

Thanks Simran9 for the emails. I'll check them. Thanks Bijla Singh for the link. If you have the paintings, please scan them and email them to me. my email is in my profile. thanks folks! Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Few months back I read an article online that had picture drawings how indian police tortured the Sikhs, like rolling a thick log on the back of their legs (ghotna), electric shots, and hanging then down with their arms. can somone point me to that link and post some links for more pictures please? i need this infor asap. Thanks.

yaar no question is stupid question. if you don't know it, you don't know it. when we got our first computer, in 1998, i asked my teacher who helped us buy and hook it up, "how do i turn it off"? my friend was standing right next to me and he stated laughing at me and i felt sooooo bad....

No kissing or anything like that is allowed before marriage. period. If they think they kissed cuz they wanna get married in the future, but what if that does not happen for some reason? Remember: It's not done until it is done. Won't they feel disgusted and guilty in their conscious that they have made a mistake that is considered very sick and dirty before marriage, the thing that only a couple is allowed to do. What if one of the person dies and the other has to marry someone else. Then won't that person feel guilty? If they both are Amritdhari then they should already know this. Some Sikh girls and guys are looking for Amritdhari parters to marry cuz they don't do these thigns before marriage and they are virgins, but if Amrtidhaaris' stated doing these silly thigns before marriage, this trust will go straight into toilet. wake up folks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry if i offeded anyone with my tone.....

Good question!

In reality, Bhai Bala never existed. He was a fictious character pushed into our history to destroy us. It was hard for me to believe at first, but it is the reality. There are several flaws in his version of Janam Sakhi about Sri Guru Nakan Dev Ji which he claims that Sri Guru Angad Dev Ji asked him to write. In his Janam Sakhi, he clamis that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a great Hindu, but lower in spirituality than Bhgat Kabir and Hundal. Also he tries to prove that Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not come to the world to liberate the world, but because of his own karma and liberate himself. There are countless other anti-gurmat sakhis and things written in his janam sakhi that are hard to believe. Also, the language of this Janam Sakhi is very very moderen and is not of the period of Sri Guru Angad Dev Ji, which proves that someone wrote this Sakhi longgggg after by creating a fictious charactyer, Bala and linked him with Guru Arjan Dev Ji and Guru Nanak Dev Ji's companion. In that Sakhi, Bala also writes tha whatever he is writing is all truth becuase all the things he is writing he has seen them with his eyes becauas he was with Guru Nanak Dev Ji ALL the time, which is totally wrong, becuase if that were true then why didn't Bhai Gurdas Ji mention his name in his Baani. Bhai Sahib mentioned only Bhai Mardana as Guru Nanak Dev Ji's companion. There are sooo many other points... To find out more please read 'Katik Ke Vaisakh' by Karam Singh Historian. bhul chuk di maaif

He is in my msn for a few days lol... we talked a lil bit but then i had to go to run some errands......and rest of the talk is still pending :nihungsmile:

Creation of Sarovars in our Gurdwaras, including Harimandir Sahib had many reasons, two of them are: 1) To bathe the body, and 2) Represent Equality. 1) In order to read Gurbani and do Naam Simran, body needs to be active and feel fresh. Therefore, Gurdwaras have Sarovars. Take bath in the Sarovar outside, get fresh, get rid of laziness and then enter the Gurudwara hall and bathe your mind and soul in the Shabad. 2) Everybody, low or hight cast, poor or rich, king or pauper, despite these and many other differences, can take bath in the same Sarovar, just like langar. In Gurus' period, low cast people were not allowed to take bath in holly rivers, like Gangas and stuff, they were not even allowed to take water from those places where rich and high cast brahmins were used to take from. Therefore, Guru Sahib created saroves where everybody can bathe in the same place despite these differences and gave people equality and taught those brahmins that everybody is God's creation and nobody is low or high. The shabad mentioned by H4RPAL Ji is misinterprited almost everytime we listen to it and read it, as it is done in the translation here too. Its actual meaning could be understood from Prof. Sahib Singh's Teeka of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (Sri Guru Granth Darpan). soriT mhlw 5 Gru 3 dupdy sorat(h) mehalaa 5 ghar 3 dhupadhae Sorat'h, Fifth Mehl, Third House, Du-Padas: <> siqgur pRswid ] ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh || One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: rwmdws srovir nwqy ] raamadhaas sarovar naathae || Bathing of the soul and mind in the Sadhsangat (Sarovar of Sadhsangat) of Ram's (Waheguru's) daas (devotees), ('Ramdas' here does not mean Guru Ram Daas) (Punjabi Transliteration): Ram (Akaal Purukh) de daasan de sadhsangat roopi sarovar vich ishnaan karan naal, siB auqry pwp kmwqy ] sabh outharae paap kamaathae || all past sins are erased. (Punjabi Transliteration): Saarey kamaaye (earned) hoye paapan da naas ho janda hai. inrml hoey kir iesnwnw ] niramal hoeae kar eisanaanaa || One becomes immaculately pure, taking this cleansing bath of the soul (in this sarovar of Sadhsangat of Ram's (Waheguru's) daas) (Punjabi Transliteration): Prabhu de Naam-Jal naal isnaan kar ke oh pavitr jeevan wale ban jande han. guir pUrY kIny dwnw ]1] gur poorai keenae dhaanaa ||1|| The Perfect Guru has bestowed this gift. ||1|| (Punjabi Transliteration): Par eh bakhshash poorey Guru ne hi keeti hundi hai. siB kusl Kym pRiB Dwry ] sabh kusal khaem prabh dhhaarae || God has blessed all with peace and pleasure. shI slwmiq siB Qok aubwry gur kw sbdu vIcwry ] rhwau ] sehee salaamath sabh thhok oubaarae gur kaa sabadh veechaarae || rehaao || Everything is safe and sound, as we contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||Pause|| swDsMig mlu lwQI ] saadhhasa(n)g mal laathhee || In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, filth is washed off. pwrbRhmu BieE swQI ] paarabreham bhaeiou saathhee || The Supreme Lord God has become our friend and helper. nwnk nwmu iDAwieAw ] naanak naam dhhiaaeiaa || Nanak meditates on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. Awid purK pRBu pwieAw ]2]1]65] aadh purakh prabh paaeiaa ||2||1||65|| He has found God, the Primal Being. ||2||1||65|| (SGGS 625) When we translate this Shabad incorrectly, as it is done on some websites, several questions arise, such as: # 1) In first pauri, if Guru Sahib is saying that by taking merely a bath in Sarover made by Guru Ram Das Ji (at Harimander Sahib, Amritsar), all sins are washed away, then those Sikhs who won't get the chance to visit Harimander Sahib in the entire life, for several reasons, will remain sinners and their sins will never be washed even if they do extensive Naam Simiran and Seva. #2) The second pauri is conveying the totally diffeent message that by Naam Simran, union with Waheguru is achieved, which is totally contradictory to the first pauri. Sri Guru Granth Darpan: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/ Go to Page # 625 and read the translation of this Shabad. (You may need to install the fonts.) bhul chuk di maafi

First , secondly , and finally lol........

Orange color in Sikhi symbolizes Sacrifice, when a Sikh totally surrenders him/herself to the Guru and does not worry about life or death.

Exactly. A well trained and expreienced mason will always think carfully and take each and every step to make the foundation stronger before erecting the house because he knows the consequences of weak foundation, a surprise. Let our Guru be our Mason and we all serve as laborers. mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan ji, that day will definitely come.

very nice article, as always, first thing should be first...

Bhaji, we need to recognize our true enemy first. There is a saying in punjabi, "Kuttey da vairi kuttta" (Dog's enemy is Dog). Same thing is true for us Sikhs too, "Sikh da vairi Sikh" (Sikh's enemy is Sikh). We have several instances in our history where Sikhs have backstabbed their fellow Sikhs in time of crisis and War. Sikh-Anglo War II is one of the major examples. When we were defeted by British, Shah Mohammad quoted: Shah Muhammada ik Sarkar (Maharaja Ranjit Singh) bajon, Faujan Jit ke ant nu harian ne. Just because of our own people. Bhaji, I never asked anyone to sit in bhora and do bhagti. There is no doubt that Sikhs have a fighthing spirit that no one else in the world has, but it does not mean that we just pick up arms and jump in the battlefield with a sword and die. We will get nothing out of it. We have to look at an issue from each and every angle. And as far as Dasam Bani is concerned, only a few pages of Dasam Granth are said to be written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji (first 39 pages, said by Prof. Darshan Singh) and Zafarnana. If we are strong in Simran, we don't have to talk about Khalistan. But where is Khalistan then? These were Great Gusikhs. We should not degrade their shaheedi by likingk them with Khalistan. This is another problem we Sikhs are facing today. We think we can get Khalistan ONLY and ONLY by achieving Shaheedi. We do not think out of the box. This is called janoon. This is a political fight, dirty politics is involved, our real enemies are within us, our Sikh Political bodies and our Jathedaars of Takhats. By merely fighting in a battle and dying won't get us a darn thing. mÚ 4 ] ma 4 || Fourth Mehl: gur siqgur kw jo isKu AKwey su Blky auiT hir nwmu iDAwvY ] gur sathigur kaa jo sikh akhaaeae s bhalakae out(h) har naam dhhiaavai || One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name. audmu kry Blky prBwqI iesnwnu kry AMimRq sir nwvY ] oudham karae bhalakae parabhaathee eisanaan karae a(n)mrith sar naavai || Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar. aupdyis gurU hir hir jpu jwpY siB iklivK pwp doK lih jwvY ] oupadhaes guroo har har jap jaapai sabh kilavikh paap dhokh lehi jaavai || Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased. iPir cVY idvsu gurbwxI gwvY bhidAw auTidAw hir nwmu iDAwvY ] fir charrai dhivas gurabaanee gaavai behadhiaa out(h)adhiaa har naam dhhiaavai || Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name. jo swis igrwis iDAwey myrw hir hir so gurisKu gurU min BwvY ] jo saas giraas dhhiaaeae maeraa har har so gurasikh guroo man bhaavai || One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind. ijs no dieAwlu hovY myrw suAwmI iqsu gurisK gurU aupdysu suxwvY ] jis no dhaeiaal hovai maeraa suaamee this gurasikh guroo oupadhaes sunaavai || That person, unto whom my Lord and Master is kind and compassionate - upon that GurSikh, the Guru's Teachings are bestowed. (SGGS 305) jnu nwnku DUiV mMgY iqsu gurisK kI jo Awip jpY Avrh nwmu jpwvY ]2] jan naanak dhhoorr ma(n)gai this gurasikh kee jo aap japai avareh naam japaavai ||2|| Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that GurSikh, who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it. ||2|| The issue we are facing, if we do not solve them now, there is no guarantee they will be solved after Khalistan. We will become a laughing stock in the entire world, pulling each other's beards and knocking off turbans and kicking them like a soccer ball, which had happed recently during SGPC elections as some of us have seen pictures too. The truth is we do not have one issue, ett chako tan issue nikalda. ekta di tan gall hi ni rahi... We cannot even solve our Gurdwara problems, how can we sit and solve our big issues in Khalistan. People fight and kill each other in Gurdwaras, police comes in, hundreds and thousands of dollars are wasted in courts. Who is to blame for all this. The management committee members or the Sangat? I will blame the latter. Reason: postcard sent by that professor. We do not know and care what we are doing. We are all divided up. We are either followers of diffent Sants, jathebandis, or even anti-sikh sects and still go to Gurdwaras. We have common Guru, but why these differences. Do we deseve to be called Khalsa? Are we ready what we are so eager for? We always looked outside for enemies and blame them. But we actually never looked inside our own community. Our real enemies are within us, like that worm inside the wood that keeps eating it from inside and keeps making it hollow day by day, but from outside wood looks very clean and polished, but one day its collaples all of a sudden. That is whats happening to us. Bhaji, for how long did they last? Surviving and lasting are two different things. Bhaji, why we do we have to associate Great Gursikh with our purpose that we want to achieve and link their name with it. Only and only Guru Sahib knows what they deseve, not us. We can never understand the relationship between the Guru and his Khalsa Fauj. Guru di sharan naalon vadda raaj hor ki ho sakda jithey saadey shaheed Singh bhaite aa. Bhaji, Guru Nanak Dev Ji knew more than us. We are not more intelligent to tell Guru Sahib that we needed Raaj in 1469 but you did not give us. We have more things and more work to do rather than fighting and dying for Khalsa Raaj. Everything has a right time and we should do those things that today's time requires. Our panth is falling apart. Our generations are driffting away from Sikhi, we have been listening toooooooo many fake Sakhis in Gurdwaras for centures that do not allign with Gurbani, SGPC which did a great work when it was established about a century ago and now see what it has turned in to? We do not want a Khalistan that will work great in its initial stage and then fall apart and gets corruped like SGPC now. i'm sorry if i have hurt anybody's feelings. i know many of the forum members are pro khalistani and i respect and love all of them cuz all of you have dard for Sikhi and want our own Sikh Raaj, but at the same time, we have many other issues which we have to give priority to, the prerequisites, like when we want to take a class, we have to complete the prerqs. We don't want to take them, but we have to cuz without them, we cannot take the class that we want to take. forigive me if any of my words have hurt anyone There is an interesting article online, if someone wants to read it, please click on the link below: http://allaboutsikhs.com/articles/us/001.htm

Bijla Singh Ji, I do not want to create more confusion or conflict of opinions. I have read all the posts and understand everybody's views where they are coming from and I respect them all, both pro and anti. I do not worry about my views because they keep chaning day by day and moment by moment on issues and therefore, I do not want to force my opinions on anyone, all I can do is just express them to the best of my ability. The most important thing I want to express is that we Sikhs are not united. We don't even have common Rehat Maryada. If someone says, believe in the one by Akal Takhat Sahib, but how may of us believe in it? Different jathas and deras have their own maryada and we believe in the one from where we received Khanday Batey di Pahul. This is just one example. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but we should all take some time and think deep inside and see what we notice. If Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji can give Raaj to Bahadur Shah, a Moghul Emperor, why can't he give to his Sikhs. Isn't it true that we do not deserve that Raaj yet, at this particular moment becuase we are not capable for this daat at this time. There are soooooooooo many controversies we are we facing today, like Raag Mala, Meat, Bhai Bala, Amrit, Nitnem Banis, Dasam Granth, to name a few. And inconsistency and wrong information in our Rehatnamas, Janam Sakhis, Suraj Prakash, Gurbilas Patshahi Chhevi, etc. etc. In order to establish a Khalsa Raaj, we need to solve all these issues. We don't even have one version of our history. koi kise paasey tureya firda, koi kise paase. What one group of peolpe believes, others can openly refuse to accept it, both are Gursikhs, due to wrong information written in our historial records we have found. This is one of the major problems we are facing today and it had created soooooooo many divisions among Sikhs. It destroyed our unity. We need to take care of the first thing first, then go for the second, and finally we will get to the last one. But we want to get to the last one quickly, here and now, because thats all we see. We need to improve ourselves first, we need to understand the true meaing of Khalsa. We should first find out if we truely deserve the Khalsa Raaj. No matter how many sacrifices we make, we will never get Khalsa Raaj if our Guru is not happy with us. Right thing takes place only at a right time and it will definitely take place, but sometimes we are sooo eager and want it on our place right here and now. Sant Attar Singh Ji Mastuaney Wale tells us in the book about his life written by Sant Teja Singh that how and why Moghuls got the Raaj. Before they got Raaj, they were used to do alotttttttttttttt of 'Ibadaat' (bhagti) and therefore, God gave them Raaj. But later on, they started giving humanity hard time, killing them and coverting them by force and lot of more immoral things that all Sikhs are aware of. Then they lost their Raaj. Then Sant Ji said that from Simran point of view, Sikhs are very weak, they are way tooooooooooooooo behind, they don't do as much Simran as they are supposed to. (I don't have the book with me right now to give the reference). Do we really have those qualities of a Khalsa that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji wanted? I am no where close to it. I request all of my brothers and sisters to please look inside and see if we deserve to be called Khalsa, and let Guru Sahib decide when we need Khalsa Raaj. We need to complete our task: Awpu svwrih mY imlih mY imilAw suKu hoie ] aap savaarehi mai milehi mai miliaa sukh hoe || God says, ""If you reform yourself, you shall meet me, and meeting me, you shall be at peace. PrIdw jy qU myrw hoie rhih sBu jgu qyrw hoie ]95] fareedhaa jae thoo maeraa hoe rehehi sabh jag thaeraa hoe ||95|| O Fareed, if you will be mine, the whole world will be yours.""||95|| and Let Guru Sahib take care of his own. Please forgive me if I have offened someone. I'm not trying to argue with anyone, just expressed my views and they may be entirely wrong.