Aparadhee

akal takht maryada is very clear on who is a sikh i.e. that person who at the very least has full faith in sri guru granth sahib as the eternal guru. the channels name is "the sikh channel", sevadars should consider akal takhts hukams before proceeding with naamdhari parchariks in the future on the whole good seva being undertaken by sikh channel p.s. no difference in my mind between sikh channel and preaching in gurdwara, if anything dodgy parchariks have potential to do more damage on tv, as explained earlier bhul chuk maaf

"in puratan maryada--rehitnamas etc, even a Sikh woman is not permitted to sit on the throne with Guru Granth Sahib ji, so I don't see why a non-Sikh would be able to," any references bhai sahib? just as you cannot imagine maharaj stopping a non sikh from performing kirtan i cannot imagine maharaj not allowing a rehitvan bibi to perform their seva. infact to suggest a bibi not be allowed to sit on tabiya just because she is a bibi is more outrageous than preventing non amritdharis from leading the sangat in my humble opinion. i know some puratan jathebandia only allow bibia to do akhand paaht seva after a set number of singhs cannot be found, but even this system reaks of inequality. furthermore, whether it be kirtan or akhand paahts, the common denominator is still gurbani. in gurbani, kirtan is held in very high regard and so i would think kirtan maryada in a darbar would be just as strict as akhand paaht da maryada. i think guru sahibs appearance has changed over time, i.e in style of dastar etc. kesh was certainly a definate nishaani. guru sahib at times had stones thrown at them on their udhaasis, this in my opinion suggests guru sahib stood out from the crowd some how. i have full faith guru sahibans wore dastara in keeping with the gurbani lines quoted by sunny, the rest only guru sahib knows bhul chuk maaf gurfateh

fair points, obviously before guru gobind singh ji panj kakkars would not have been formally given to abhlaakis, but i think certainly at the least dastar and long kesh would have been an identifier of guru nanak dev ji's sikhs thus differentiating them to others as is the case today. we agree on maryada for akhand paaht but i am curious as to why this would be different for maryada of kirtan in maharajs darbar. i.e. wouldnt saying no to a non amritdhari for akhand paaht seva be jsut as bad as for kirtan seva in a darbar?

fair point valli singh, are we now making a distinction between patit amritdhari and non amritdharis who may also commit bujjer kurehit or are they one and the same? "mean that would be like saying if the Bhagats were alive today--we would not allow them to sit on the stage and do kirtan!" <<<<< veer ji look up threads regarding bhagats meeting guru nanak dev ji and receiving charan amrit. again this is one of those topics that has been very popular in the past

i think sgpc has made seperate titles (baptised sikh and unbaptised) due to modern day pressure from non amritdharis to be recognised. if we go back to maharajs times then sikh would be that person who has taken amrit. before guru gobind singh amrit was given in form of charan amrit so idea of amrit has been round from guru nanak dev jis times. issues on whether bhai mardana ji and bhai bala ji were muslim and hindu has been discussed before and evidence points towards them being sikhs. their descendents can claim what they want, alot of people still claim guru nanak to be hindu but we dont take their word for it do we? my opinion is that if the person is getting in to sikhi and keeps the basic rehit i.e kesh and no intoxicants then they can be allowed, akhand paaht maryada is very strict within many jathas and specifically asks for amritdhari gursikhs to perform the seva. it is important to remember that if a amritdhari commits a bujjer kurehit then they are also not allowed to lead the sangat either. gurfateh

gur satgur ka jo sikh akhaae so bhal ke ut har naam dhiaave....

the example of monay doing panj pyare seva is a good one. panj pyare must have immense kamayee to do this seva, at the same time kamayee of kirtani is also important as it has huge effect on listener. again if a person is doing paaht from guru sahib in sangat and tukh appears relating to naam or receiving naam then what is the reader to make of such a tukh, they have not received naam from satguru. how can they then lead the sangat? this is not a question of whether they can do paaht or kirtan as anyone is free to do this, but maryada of a darbar is very different. if they have pyaar for sikhi they will be content to continue doing kirtan at home and respect maryada of darbar sahib. the question arises should we now let non amritdharis be in gurdwara committees and should we let them do kirtan/maharaj di seva at harimandar sahib? other sevas include making degh, can a non amritdhari make degh? why stop at kirtan, even now monay are asking to be part of gurdwara committees yet a gurdwaras duty is to promote the amrit of dashmesh pita yet the committee members havent even kept kesh, is this not contradictory? again i have full faith bh mardana ji took charan amrit of guru nanak dev ji and became gursikh gurfateh

if a person is reading or singing gurbani in gurus darbar then they are acting as a vehicle for the gurus message. if they are not following even basic rehit of guru sahib then it seems hypocritical. this is the reason as to why amritdharis are given seva in gurus darbar or at least i think this is the reason. however, i do have full faith that bhai mardana ji was a sikh of guru nanak dev ji

panthic rehit maryada is very clear on this issue taksal is veyr clear on this, mahapursh such as sant gurbachan singh ji and bhi randhir singh are clear on this, along with others from puratan jathebandis the ideals for khalsa have been set by guru gobind singh, guru sahib is clear on this. so whoever deviates from these ideals does it on their own accord. our role model is guru sahib and guru sahib only. we are very quick to label everyone as brahmgianis in a attempt to support our arguements. unfortunately for you guys, its not that simple brahmgiani ki gat brahmgiani jaaneh sorry for any offense

if we all had the same pyaas to meet sri guru granth sahib ji, im sure our jeevans would automatically elevate to new highs. unfortunately the mentality shown in this thread, is exactly what our enemies are exploiting at the moment. go to india and take your pick, its like a candy shop, there is a sant mahapursh brahmgiani in every pind these days. stay in sangat of guru saheb and rehitvaan focussed gursikhs, this is enough to ferry you across the worldy ocean. meeting a TRUE mahapursh is a blessing which we have no control over.. its all down to whats written on your forehead. even then if they were true mahapursh they would only direct you to guru saheb

Issue of kakar- Sant isher singh ji rara sahib himself used to say in divans, so far there were few sehajdhari mahapursh (trimmed hair) in the panth, and they are parvan in the panth and in nirmal mandal as they belong to mastane category of bhramgyani sikhs, >>>>>>>>>>>>> what is the view of taksal on the above, how can this be parvan in the panth of guru gobind singh when guru sahib is clear on the issue of kesh. perhaps it was just a typo

The above article has failed miserably to understand the essence of the original writeup it is referring to. Especially when it claims that "The author goes on to argue that the Sikh Rehat Maryada only applies to gurdwaras and not Takhats" The original article does not argue that Sikh Rehat Maryada only applies to gurdwaras and not Takhats. Here the original article http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option...h&Itemid=63 Parkash of Sri Dasam Granth is a non-issue and had never been an issue throughout Sikh history (Read John Malcolm's account of maryada of Gurmatta that he witnessed in Amritsar in early 1800s)......Only the detractors would come up with such issues and excuses... >>>>>>>>>>>> on the contrary i think the article poses some genuine questions regarding parkash and double hukamnama. questions which remain unaddressed. the question inevitably arises... if parkash of dasam granth was intended by guru sahib themselves, then why did they not clearly state this in a rehitnama and compile the sri dasam granth themselves. why was compilation left to bhai mani singh ji. again the authenticity of sri dasam granth is not in question, just the practise of REGULARLY having the granth parkashed alongside sri guru granth sahib which has become prevelant in some groups. what has raagmala got to do with this? benti to admin not to allow such posts, if you want to advertise your pro ragmala programmes then do it in a seperate thread, rather than risking this thread turning into a ragmala debate which is not allowed by admin anyway.

if sangat wants to discuss such topics then do it while acting like mature adults. article below gives a nice calm insight to the arguement put forward by the likes of singhni wannabe, >>>>> http://www.sikhism101.com/node/267 Can Dasam Granth be installed parallel to Guru Granth Sahib Ji? A Sikh journalist recently wrote an article which highlighted the rule written in the Panthic Rehat Maryada that no other book is allowed to be installed parallel to Guru Granth Sahib Ji. However, the author of that article justified Dasam Granth being Parkaash (installed) next to Guru Granth Sahib Ji at Takht Sri Hazoor Sahib and Takht Sri Patna Sahib by the fact that a 'Takht' is different to a Gurdwara. The author goes on to argue that the Sikh Rehat Maryada only applies to gurdwaras and not Takhats and hints that Dasam Granth needs to be installed next to Guru Granth Sahib Ji (in a slightly smaller canopy) in order to infuse the warrior spirit and balance the Saint-Warrior aspect. A response to this topic is below: STATUS OF DASAM GRANTH The Sri Akaal Takht in its recent Hukamnama (edict) has made it clear that the Dasam Granth has an integral position and status in Gurmat. Sri Akal Thakht has concluded any debate on Dasam Granth with a suitable response. BIR RASS & DASAM GRANTH Some argue or subtly suggest that the Granth with the warrior spirit is the Dasam Granth. In the recent debate on Dasam Granth, many said that it is the Dasam Granth that brings Bir Rass in the Khalsa. This does not make sense and is misleading. Indeed, the Dasam Granth has many amazing banis which are unquestionable and inspire Bir Rass in Gursikhs, but it not correct to assume that without Dasam Granth, Sikhs will not have warrior spirit. We need to recognise the Bir Rass was present in Sikhi before the Dasam Granth was revealed by Guru Sahib. Guru Nanak Dev Ji had the virtue of spirit when he called Babur by the name Zabur (evil tyrant). The sixth guru, Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji revealed Miri–Piri and successfully won four battles. Not just our Guru Sahibaan, but great Gursikhs such as Bhai Biddhi Chand ji had Bir rass blessed upon them. So this quality has been present from the beginning. NAAM HAS EVERY VIRTUE Throughout time to present, anyone who has given his/her head to the Guru has been blessed with Naam. Those who sincerely japp naam 24/7 find that negative emotions within them get significantly reduced, and replaced by positive virtues. In some Gursikhs, they are blessed with more humility, others more sehaj, others more wisdom, and others more Bir rass, and many more of every virtue. The power of naam has no limits. SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI IS COMPLETE & PERFECT IN EVERY WAY As Sikhs we need to be careful. Quite often in our “shardaa” (devotion) for one thing, we may inadvertently and unintentionally question the supremacy of another. It is important to consider things with foresight and balance. This may be the case of Dasam Granth and Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Some Sikhs, not all, in their “sharda” for promoting the Dasam Granth in the face of questioning of it by anti-Dasam Granth lobby, have confused this promotion of Dasam Granth with the many issues of parallel parkaash (installation). As such two very different issues have become meshed into one. We have to realise that Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is perfect is every manner. It is perfectly complete, with every virtue in it including Bir Rass. Our father, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, who was also complete and perfect in every way, made the choice himself in his own perfect wisdom to not include his banis in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We accept his perfect wisdom, even though many of us in our limited wisdom may wonder why his banis are not in there. But we must accept that even without these banis Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has the complete message for humanity for all time. ISSUES WITH THE PARALLEL PARKAASH AND TWO HUKAMNAMAS Almost every Gurdwara in the Panth recognises the supreme authority of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Only a handful of gurdwaras have parallel parkaash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, Dasam Granth and the not often mentioned Sarbloh Granth. It is the belief of one or two groups that the Guru is only complete when these three Granths are together. They have propagated this belief, and are especially propagating it within the minds of new Sikh youth who lack knowledge of Panjabi, history, Panthik norms and Gurbani to a degree where they can challenge it with reasoned debate. For those who believe in parallel parkaash and take two hukamnamas (edicts) at the end of a divaan after Ardaas, is not the hukammana from solely Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji enough? As Sikhs we need to consider how this “shardaa” (devotion) is indirectly challenging the supremacy of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The bani of the Dasam Granth is in our Nitnem (daily prayer), Ardaas, Amrit sanchaar, keertan, etc. It has a highly virtuous place in the Panth. Some may say it is revered above the Vaars of Bhai Gurdas ji, and the rehitnamas of Bhai Nand lal ji, others say it is equivalent with them to enhance the core message within Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Either way, its status is will always remain integral in the Sikh faith without a doubt. But to place Dasam Granth on par with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and then state the Guru is only complete with both Dasam granth and Sarbloh Granth is incorrect and blasphemous. Surely then we humans are introducing something which Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not. Further before elevating the Sarbloh Granth to such a high level, Sikhs need to do considerably more research into it. CONCLUSION * Bir Rass and the concept of Sant-Siphai (Saint-Warrior) is essential in Sikhi. While Dasam Granth enhances this within, it is incorrect to suggest the Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji promotes Naam, which has every virtue in it. * The Dasam Granth is integral to Sikhi, as confirmed by the Sri Akaal Takht Sahib. * Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is perfect & complete in every manner, as blessed to us by our Guru Sahibaan. We do not need to introduce via our own “shardaa” other Granths in a delusion that the Guru is only complete with them. This is a direct challenge to the completeness and sovereignty of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. * Equally the hukamnama from Guru ji is complete, and there is no need for two hukamanams based upon parallel parkaash. In fact, if only everyone in the Panth lovingly followed just the hukamnama from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, we would have a completely different Panth that is more Guru-oriented, spiritual, and united. http://www.sikhism101.com/node/267

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4MZz1BB5A&...feature=related http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VtrKpb0WUjk end of first video and start of second touches on the issue being discussed khaalis has a point, raag vidiya is important and something special, but there is plenty of bani in guru sahib which is without raag aswell. what do we do in the case of this bani? in the end just listen to what gives you anand. it is wrong to say kirtan outside of raag is manmat, as then how do we explain this to those who have experienced maha anand from such "manmat" kirtan. those who say raag is useless, have probably not experienced the anand from raag either. in the end perhaps a combination of both in ones jeevan is a just compromise. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=s5iKevff5aM if we say the above kirtan is not parvaan in guru nanak dev jis house then we have not realised how to do kirtan from the heart. but i doubt anyone of us holds that view. fateh

Nice video and writeup psd sahib, we have another video regarding singh sahib raam singh, however that wont be released. Baba Jee does deeper bachan in there >>>>>>>> k_z which singh sahib raam singh is this regarding? get the video off your friend and upload it for the sangat, no point telling us and not showing it lol