Vir Singh

-self edited-

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa Jee, thank you for your humble analyses. But I don’t try to put down Nanaksaris. I’ll admit in the thread last week I was a little bias against Nanaksaris because of all the cases I heard of such as Baba Harnek Singh. But since last week I have been reading up on the Nanaksaris with an open mind. Since then, whatever I have written about them is based on Nanaksar's own sources.

Khalsa Soulja Jee, the thing is, we have made the terms “Bramgiani, Sant, 108” etc very cheap. We use these terms so often then we are losing the real meaning behind them. Most of us make the mistake of saying “so and so was a Brahmgiani” and that too without even knowing any stories about them. Unless you have read all the stories of a particular Gursikh, and know all of there views, only then you should decide if you want to call them Brahmgiani. A Brahmgiani is directly linked with God. In my opinion there is no way two Brahmgianis can have conflicting views. If there is a conflicting view, then there is definitely something wrong. One of them is not a Brahmgiani (just my opinion). Again this is my opinion. A lot of you might give me a lot of Gaalaah for this. I think that we should use the term Mahpursh. The term Brahmgiani should be only used if you know a lot about that Mahpursh and are sure that person is a Brahmgiani. Brahmgiani Ki Gat Brahmgiani Jannea. ONly a brahmgiani knows of another Brahmgiani.

Khalsa Jee, I post so others can learn, and in turn I can learn from their replies. This is a discussion forum. In these forums debates happen, people discuss conflicting views. Many people learn new things from such discussion. This kind of discussion should be encouraged, not discouraged. People wouldn’t really go to discussion forums as much as they do if there weren’t debates. Just as long as people don’t use profanities and throw derogatory remarks. But if the debate is clean then what’s wrong with that? You have to admit, before I posted this story most people probably would have never have even thought that such a story even happened.

N30 Singha, if Baba Nand Singh Jee is right, the Bhindrawalay Sants did believe in Mul Manter up to “Gurprasaad” and not “Nanak Hosie Bhi Sach” as they do now. If Baba Nand Singh Jee is correct then that means Sant Sundar Singh Jee also believed it to be up to Gurprasaad. That would explain why almost all Nirmalas also believe Mul Mantar to be up to “Gurprasaad”. N30 Singh, are you serious? As a Sikh do you actually believe in Sargun Pujaa? Sikhism is dead set against Sargun Puja (idol worship). Guru Nanak Dev Jee was the founder of Nirgun Puja in all of India. Before Guru Nanak, everyone did Sargun Puja. Our god is formless, Nirgun. By reverting back to idol worshiping we are basically going against Guru Nanak Dev Jee’s teachings. First of all I did not intend to make a statement against Santmat. I Basically said that now a days it’s becoming very trendy to follow Sants. But I’ve noticed that 99% of the Santmat followers don’t even know the stories of there respective Sants. You are a perfect example of such a follower. Most Sant Mat followers like you just know the Sants by there faces in pictures, but don’t know a thing about them, there stories, or there beliefs and traditions. Perfect example of blind faith. I encourage you to read up more on Sant stories, listen to Katha Wachaks as they tell stories of Sants. Although I must admit I like to read about Sants and there Sampradahs because you learn a lot from there stories, but Sant Mat does not appeal to me much. I am a follower of Gurmat. I prefer to follow the Panj Pyaray, the Singhs as a collective. Panj Pyaray represents the Guru. I’m not trying to put you down in anyway, you have your own way, I have my own way. I prefer the traditional ways of the Khalsa such as Nirgun Puja, following Panj Pyaray, and wearing blue Dastars, as opposed to the new age style Sikhi which encourages following a Saint, and in many cases idol worship (Sargun Puja).

Khalsa Jee, c’mon lets not make it into a bigger deal then it already is. Whats wrong with discussing such topics? Lets not become so restrictive. All I’m saying is that a lot of people now a days are increasingly believing in Sants… it like the new fashion trend, but 99% of them will not even know of there stories. Since many don’t know of these stories, there is no Paap if I translate there stories here now is there?

But Khalsa Soulja, how can two Brahmgianis have different views on some very fundamental topics. I personally agree with Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee in the story. I am totally against idol worship (sargun puja).

N30 Singh, I did not add any Masala if that’s what you think. Just go to the local Nanaksari Gurdwara. In your case I think the Brampton one will do because I’m assuming it is closer. Ask them if they have any books, if they say yes then ask for “Anand Chamatkar” authored by Gurmukh Singh, he is the Hazuri Raagi of the one and only Baba Nand Singh Jee. It is a red coloured book. In total there are 5 volumes of books. Each book contains around an additional 4-5 sub-volumes. This book is officially published by Nanaksar (Utham Pustak Bhandaar). The story that I translated is to be found on in Volume 4, sub-volume 13, chaper 2. I got this book directly from India, so I don’t think Sacha Sauda sells them. But the Nanaksari Gurdwara must have them for sure. I don’t have a scanner so I cant really scan the pages. But I will try to see if anyone I know has one, and good for you for considering investigating this whole story.

M30 Singh, please refrain from spreading lies. When did I spread lies against the Mahpurshas? I only translated this story. That is my only crime. If anything you should be happy I am reading up on the lives of Sants. I have a couple of other stories that are just as interesting. They are currently under translation. N30 Singh I respect that you honour the Sants. But it is important to know more about them then just there apearences in photos. You should know of their stories and what made them Sants. Don’t just follow someone blindly because they have a Sant attached to there names. Read up on them, understand why they are called Mahapursh, Sants.

N30 Singh, I did not have any wrong intention when I translated this. If you want to put it on the Sikh awareness then great. You have my full support brother. If you think I have a wrong opinion about Nanaksar, then I would appreciate input from Nanaksaris so I my misunderstandings can be cleared. Also i would appreciate what is your opinion about the Mul Manter discussion between the two Mahapursh.

Moorakh Mughad don’t create a fuss out of nothing. You yourself have said that you have not even read this article. If you have not read it, then why do you want it to be deleted? Forget what N30 Singh has to say. He’s a very bitter man, and he’ll go to any extent to have this article deleted. Read the article then lets talk about it. Lets discuss it in a civilized and scchollorly manner. You know, many Siaanay say Sikhs lack scholarly discussion and debate. Through debate and discussion we learn a lot. Give it a try.

Interesting observation Naam Jap Jee. But if this story is correct, then according to it, the Damdami Taksal Sants originally did believe in Mul Mantar ending at “Gurprasaad”. Maybe along the way they changed to Nanak Hosie Bhi Sach, or maybe it was because of the persuasion of Baba nand Singh Jee Maharaj that the Damdami Taksal Sants began believing the Mul Manter ends at Nanak Hosie Bhi Sach.

Oh Birkhalsa Jee. I will give it a rest.

self edited.

NOTE: I do no stand by the opinion expressed in this story. I have simply translated this from Anand Chamatkar volume 13, chaper 2. Anand Chamatkar is the official biography of Baba Nand Singh Jee of Nanaksar. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Baba Jee (Nand Singh Jee) was at Nanaksar Kaleree. He had arrived from Delhi, Deradoon and Panjor. The two Sangats met, from where were going together to do Darshan of Baba Nand Singh Jee, Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee Bhindranwale along with his entire Jatha from Bhindra were going towards the village KhaaRay. There were many students in this Jatha, amongst them Jathadar Giani Gurdial Singh Jee. Along the way they made the decision to meet Baba Nand Singh Jee, because Baba Jee just arrived from the mountains and was now in Nanaksar. The Jatha arrived at Nanaksar, from there they received a very warm reception from the Sevadars. The Jatha was taken near a well close to the Parkarma, hidden from view where the recitation of Sukhmani Sahib happens for 12 months, and was currently happening. As requested Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee Bhindranwale along with his entire Jatha sat and began listening to the recitation. A Sevadar told Baba Nand Singh Jee that Sangat from Bhindra has just arrived to see you. Baba Jee ordered a sevadar to serve them Jal (water). Baba Nand Singh Jee went to Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee. Jathadar Jee (Giani Gurdial Singh Jee) along with the entire Jatha greeted Baba Jee with a Fateh. Baba Jee very warmly said “Jee Aya Nuu” (welcome). Jathadar Gurdial Singh jee said, “Maharaj you have blessed us with your Darshan”. While they were wa rmly greeting each other, Baba Nand Singh Jee asked the Paathi to do Paath louder. Paathi did as told and read out these Pangathees SRI MUKHWAK 284-11 NAAM KAY DHARAY, SAGALAY JANT NAAM KAY DHARAY, KHAND BRAHMAND NAAM KAY DHAREY, SIMRIT BEDH PURAAN NAAM KAY DHARAY, SUNAN GIAN DHIAN Baba Nand Singh Jee requested Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee to please do Kirpa by translating those Pangathees. Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee in turn requested Baba Nand Singh jee “Patshah! Please do kirpa, put us on the path of Naam Kamaee”. Jathadar Sant Gurdial Singh Jee was older in age then Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee. He was imbued in Naam Simran, thus he also respected those who did Simran. That is why he was very satisfied to listen to Baba Nand Singh Jee. Now Baba Nand Singh Jee said, “Giani Jee, you are a Vidhvaan(scholor), please do kirpa (by translating those Pangathees)”. Giani Jee followed suit by starting the translation. “With the support of Naam, all life thrives in this world. With the support of Naam all worlds and solar systems exists. The Puraans, the Simritees, and Vedas were all written by those who did Naam Simran. Everyone, and everything exists because of Naam. With the support of Naam, one gets all spiritual knowledge and meditation” Now Baba Nand Singh Jee asked, “Giani Jee, what is the embodiment of Naam? Where can it be obtained? And where does it stay?” Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee replied “The embodiment of Naam is Nirankaar, and Nirankaar is present everywhere. Naam stays in the hearts of those who do Simran.”. Baba Jee then asked, “What should one do Simran of?” Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee replied: “ MUL MANTAR EK OANKAR, SATNAAM, KARTA PURKH, NIRBHAAU, NIRVAR, AKAL MOORAT, AJOONI SAIBHANG, GURPRASAAD.” Baba Nand Singh jee asked “Whose Mantar is this?” Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee replied, “This Mantar is of Nirankaar”. Baba Nand Singh Jee asks, “but who spoke this Mantar first” Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee replied “Guru Nanak Patshah ”. Baba Nand Singh Jee said, “Giani Jee, you have just erased the name of the one who spoke this Mantar. Our Guru, Guru Nanak Dev Jee was the one who uttered it first. You have just erased his name from the Mantar. Nirankaar gave this Mantar to Guru Nanak Dev Jee up to “GURPRASAAD”. The meaning of GURPRASAAD is that “one can only meet Nirankaar, by the blessing of Guru Jee”, but you have taken Guru Nanak out of the Mul Mantar, which was given to us by Guru Nanak. AAD SACH, JUGAAD SACH, HAIBHEE SACH, NANAK HOSEI BHI SACH, by including this, Guru Nanak completed the Mul Mantar by adding 1 at the end of HOSEI BHI SACH, thus erasing the difference between Guru Nanak and Nirankaar. If Guru Nanak wanted to make his Mantar separate then he would have added 1 at GURPRASAAD, and 2 at NANAK HOSEI BHEE SACH”. By finishing only half of the Mul Mantar at GURPRASAAD, you have taken Guru Nanak out of the Mul Mantar. By ending at GURPRASAAD, you have not only violated Nirankaar’s command, but have also insulted Guru Nanak.” Now Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee replied, “At the beginning of Guru Granth Sahib Jee, it says “Nanak hosie bhi sach”, but everywhere else throughout Gurbani it ends at “Gurprasaad”, not just once but many times”. Baba Nand Singh Jee says in return “Giani Jee!, Nirankar was in existence from the start, he still exists, and shall continue to exist. Guru Nanak saw Nirankar, and only Guru Nanak received the Mul Mantar. Isn’t Guru Nanak our Guru? It was he who uttered Gurbani, and gave us this (Mul) Mantar, thus putting us on the path to righteousness. If we take Guru (Nanak) out of the Mulmantar then how can we attain Nirankaar, who himself says “GURPRASAAD” meaning if you want to meet me, then meet me through Guru Nanak. When Nirankaar himself has made Guru Nanak into a mediator through which we can meet Nirankar, then how can we push aside Guru Nanak and expect to meet Nirankar? If you say that it is narrated many times up to “Gurprasaad”, that just means Guru Nanak’s Mantar w as up to Gurprasaad. He was only meant to do simran up to Gurprasaad, the reason for this is that Guru Nanak’s Guru was Nirankaar himself. TATH NIRANGAN JOT SUBAEE SOHANG BHED N KOEE JEEO APRAMPAR PARBRAHAM PARMASAR NANAK GUR MILIAA SOEE JEEO Meaning: The source that has created all creation is Nirankaar himself. The light of Nirankar exists in everyone and everything. (SOHANG) Meaning, what does Satgur himself say? “There is no difference between me (Guru Nanak) and him (Nirankaar)”. He is present everywhere. He is the embodiment of Nirankar and he is the dweller of Sachkhand. Whosoever he wants, he can declare as Parmashar. NANAK BRAHMGIANI AAP PARMASUR Sahib says: “Tat Nirangan is my Guru”. AAP MUKHT MUKHT KARAY SANSAAR Meanings: Satgur himself put the world on the right path and does Jeevan Mukht. “Giani Jee! We have received the Mul Mantar from Guru Nanak himself. That is why it is important to keep Guru Nanak as the mediator through which to meet Nirankaar. But if anyone has met him without Guru Nanak, then please tell me who he is.” Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee replies “Maharaj, Guru Nanak is no longer in this world in his physical body, that is why he has said: SHABAD GURU SURAT DHUN CHELA Meaning: in deep concentration, one should listen to the Guru’s Shabad”. Baba Nand Singh Jee in return said “if that is true, then there is no need for the one whose bani it is i.e. the Gurus. If what you are saying is correct, then one might as well just say to the Guru “Go! Wherever you want, there is no need for you here”. KEETA KAOO MERE SMANNE KARNHAR TRIN JANNE If one leaves Karnhar Guru Nanak who puts everyone on the path to righteousness for another place, one cannot hope to meet Nirankar. You can only meet him with deep commitment and devotion even if that devotion is directed towards a stone. After Baba Nand Singh Jee said this, Giani Jee replied “Jee, I am not saying that we have no need for the one s whose bani it is (i.e. the Gurus), but because they are no longer in Dheh roop (bodily form) we cannot have there Darshan anymore in Dheh Roop”. Baba answered, “Bhagat Dhana’s stone (moorti) came to life, drank Lassi, and ate Prashaad”. DHUD PEEAAEAY BHAGAT GHAR GAEAA, NAAMAY HAR KAA DARSAN PAEAA If Namdev’s stone can come to life and drink milk, Dhana’s stone can come to life and drink Lassi, then why can’t our Guru come to life in physical form and consume food? Giani Jee! If thoughts are terrifying enough then even they become reality, photos and pictures begin to speak. GUR KEE MOORAT MAN MEH DHIAN GUR KAY SHABAT MANTAR MAN MAAN “Meaning: one should concentrate on the Guru’s appearance. Simran should be done on the Guru’s Mantar. Concentration should be firm, then even stones (statues) begin to speak.” Hearing this, Giani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale became very angry. But he had reasons to be angry, first he was young, secondly he was a scholar, thirdly he had all good human qualities, and fourthly he was a Taksali Sant. But the real reason for his anger was that Baba Nand Singh Jee had sent only uneducated Sants to give amrit to the Raja. Our educated Gianis were not even mentioned. Because of this, Gianni Gurbachan Singh thought of it as his insult. He now wanted to beat Baba Nand Singh Jee in this debate by making him look like a mad man. PARIAAY MOORAKH AKHIAA|| JIS LAB LOB AHANKARA|| The reality is, those people are fools, who think they are smart. Just as Shiv Jee narrated Amar Katha to Parvati, and the parrot who was hiding and also listening thus attaining immortality. Shiv Jee tried for 12 years to kill the Parrot who was with Sukhdev. Shiv Jee losing his mind in trying to kill the parrot forgot a very important fact that and that is how can he kill one who is immortal. Shiv jee only realized this fact when Vishnu told him this. One who is immortal cannot die. Similarly Giani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwal e forget the very Tukh he was interpreting earlier “NAAM KAY DHAREY, SIMRIT BEDH PURAAN” Those Mahapurkhs who have Naam in there hearts, attain all knowledge of the Simrities, Vedas, and Puraanaas. Still Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee thought out of ignorance that Baba Nand Singh Jee was uneducated. What need is there to talk to our scholars. At last Giani Jee furiously spoke: JO PATHAR KO KEHTAY DEV|| TAKEE BIRTHA HOVAY SEV|| JO PAATHAR KEE PAEE(N) PAAE|| TIS KEE GHAAL AJAEE JAAEY|| Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee angrily said, “It is worthless to worship stones as Gods, and serve them. Then what is the difference between stones and a picture? A picture is just paper with colours on it. What else is in them? Nothing. As Hindus worship idols in the form of stones, Muslims bend up and down towards Mecca, similarly you (Baba Nand Singh Jee) are worshiping idols in the form of pictures”. Seeing Giani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale furious, Baba Nand Singh Jee said “Giani Jee! You yourself have said that God is present everywhere. If God is everywhere, then is he not also in the stones? RANG SABHE NARAYANE JETAY MAN BHAAVAN God who is present everywhere, present even in stones, glass, and colours. Gurmat does not give permission to worship stones like Naamdev and Dhanaa, but like them our devotion should be just as strong.” Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee answered by quoting Bhai Gurdas Jee “GUR MOORAT, GUR SHABAD HAI”. Meaning: the embodiment of the Guru is the Gurmantar/Shabad. Everything else is false including stones and pictures. Baba Nand Singh Jee replied “Giani Jee! do no bend Gurbani by making it follow you, instead you should be following Gurbani. “GURMOORAT” meaning the body and appearance of the Guru is also “Gurmoorat”. The Shabad of the Guru is also “Gurmoorat”. The important thing is whichever one your devotion fixates, that is where you should stay because that is where you will meet God. We should look at the lives of the Bhagats and reflect on them. Our devotion to God should be just as great by which even stones can come to life. Stones have not been given any authority. No Avtar elevated the Vedas and Shaastaras to his level. Guru Gobind Singh Jee on the other hand has given Guru Granth Sahib Jee his own place and authority”. Hearing all of this, Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee became all the more furious. Giani Jee was about to speak when Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee stopped him and said “Giani Jee, one should not argue with Mahapursh like Baba Nand Singh Jee”. Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee obeyed Jathadar Jee and remained silent. Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee looked towards Baba Nand Singh Jee and requested “Baba Jee, please give us a glimpse of Sach Khand”. Baba Nand Singh Jee accepted his request and asked one of his sevadars to take Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee, Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee, and the Vidhyarthees to Sachkhand. In Sachkhand everyone with the exception of Giani Gubachan Singh Bhindranwale bowed in reverence. The reason for this is because all around Sachkhand there were pictures of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Baba Nand Singh Jee knew all of this. He said Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee is very proud of his knowledge. He does not realize what is good and what is bad. With what little knowledge he has of Guru Nanak Dev Jee, the world will give him respect. A few days later Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee came back to Baba Nand Singh Jee. He bowed in reverence and asked for forgiveness as he thought Baba Nand Singh Jee would be angry with him because of the behavior of Giani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale. Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee said “Baba Jee, please forgive me, I am but a mere dog at your door”. Baba Nand Singh Jee answered, “Jathadar Jee, I am not angry at you or Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee. You should not have even had such a thought in your mind”. MOORAKH SIO NAH LOOJH PRANEE HAR JAPIEAY PADH NIRBANI HAI|| If a Mahapurkh cannot recognize the good and bad of a person, he is jus t ignorant. Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee was a great scholar of Gurbani. He lived his life in accordance to the teachings of Gurbani. That is why he recognized Baba Nand Singh Jee’s greatness and received Baba Jee’s blessings, and settled in Boparami Nagar. Giani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale never again met Baba Nand Singh jee in Baba Jees remaining years. ------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: I do not support the views of this story in anyway. I translated this from Anand Chamatkar which is the official Nanaksar biography of Baba Nand Singh Jee. I respect Sant Gurbachan Singh jee very dearly.