GurSa Singh

Come on RST walay, be honest enough to refer to the fact that you allow meat and alcohol on MJSH instead of the vague reference of ‘Certain foods and drinks’. How spineless! Anyway, this is Akal Takht's hukum, not Satkaar Sewaadars on anyone else. A committee that needs to give themselves several weeks to ban alcohol and meat on the pavitar Gurdwara premises are not worthy of calling themselves Panth sewaks. In my view they cannot have a Gurmat agenda. Shame on the RST Birmingham committee, who do not deserve to be representing the great misl of Baba Jassa Singh Ramgharia. It is also evident that parties serving alcohol and meat have been still taking place on the MJSR Hall. On the 4th December 2010 a party took place at the Hall which which allowed khulla sharab and maas to be served. No doubt there's been several parties since then and there will be more to come. The Committee have shown no interest in addressing the issue and carry on entertaining manmat under Baba Jassa Singh's name. It's a terrible state of affairs.

.Just a reminder of the second amazing Hukumnama Dhan Dhan Sachay Patshay Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj blessed us with on Saturday 16 October 2010 during the Grays Morcha. Dhanaasree mehlaa 5. Dhanaasaree, Fifth Mehl: doot dusman sabh tujh tay nivrahi pargat partaap tumaaraa. All demons and enemies are eradicated by You, Lord; Your glory is manifest and radiant. jo jo tayray bhagat dukhaa-ay oh tatkaal tum maaraa. ||1|| Whoever harms Your devotees, You destroy in an instant. ||1|| nirkha-o tumree or har neet. I look to You continually, Lord. muraar sahaa-ay hohu daas ka-o kar geh uDhrahu meet. rahaa-o. O Lord, Destroyer of ego, please, be the helper and companion of Your slaves; take my hand, and save me, O my Friend! ||Pause|| sunee bayntee thaakur mayrai khasmaanaa kar aap. My Lord and Master has heard my prayer, and given me His protection. naanak anad bha-ay dukh bhaagay sadaa sadaa har jaap. ||2||13||44|| Nanak is in ecstasy, and his pains are gone; he meditates on the Lord, forever and ever. ||2||13||44||

Coming up to 1 year since Bhai Sukhwinder Singh showed us an example of being a true Sikh. Just a reminder to some of us who may have forgotten him

I got this text today: Tonight 8pm watch Sikh TV Channel 848 they will show Sikh Stage UK even which happened in Erith on Wednesday night pls watch Jas Dhami, Aman Hayer, Benny Dhaliwal performing live in Erith Gurdwara to preserve the future of Sikhism. I suppose it was the overconfident statement preserve the future of Sikhism which allured me in to watching the programme on Sikh TV. Being a bit of an old fogie, firstly I was not too sure who Jas Dhami, Aman Hayer and Benny Dhaliwal were except for Bhangra pop stars, quickly checked their videos on youtube and as usual saw the women exploiting antics of the typical Bhangra male singer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zg7ZQy-bQs So then I thought what will they be preserving? They did not appear as Sikh role models in deed or in look. What I watched on Sikh TV was the usual 15 minute panthic bandwagon that these Bhangra singers jump on every so often as a self promotional exercise, but this time it was on the Gurdwara stage. I felt somewhat uncomfortable that the pious Gurdwara stage of Gursikh examples was allowed to be hijacked for the purpose of a Bhangra singers publicity campaign where they sang a dharmik geet and no doubt they will subsequently be appearing in a music video where they attempt to seduce a woman in a bar. The idea that this was publicised as an event to preserve the "future of Sikhism" shows how thoughtless we are. Sikhism is preserved through reni beni, thorough principles and Gurmat not through Bhangra singers. Maybe there was some genuine sharda in the organisation of this event, but organiser need to see the mixed messages of confusion which are sent when incorrect people are portrayed as Sikh role models. Till this day I have not seen one Bhangra singer, who sing Dhamrik geet one minute and then sing about a bottle of sharab the next minute, adopt a Gursikh jeevan. Yet for some reason people convince themselves that they will promote a Gursikh jeevan to others. Apologies to the likes of Mohan Singh SAS and others who were involved in the organisation, but I honestly think that if Bhangra singers think they should preserve Sikhism, then they should make more of an effort to change their jeevan and solely promote Sikh principles not a womans anatomy or bottle of liquor.

Please can Sikhpaji and other members of RST take note. 6mins 30seconds into the video clip Dr Gurnaam Singh directly asks Jathedar ji for clarity on properties assumed to be outside the boundries of the Gurdwara but owned by the Gurdwara. Jathedar ji gives clarity that these properties are ONLY allowed to be used for Gurmat related activities only, MEAT, ALCOHOL OR DRUGS ARE NOT PERMITTED ON THESE PROPERTIES!

Sangat ji, I came accross this shabad today. It felt relevant to this thread after reading the attitude seen above by people like sikhpaji and the committee of RST. This Shabad is by Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj in Raag Malaar on ang 1288 salok ma 2 || Salok, Second Mehla: naao fakeerai paathisaahu moorakh pa(n)ddith naao || The beggar is known as an emperor, and the fool is known as a religious scholar. a(n)dhhae kaa naao paarakhoo eaevai karae guaao || The blind man is known as a seer; this is how people talk. eilath kaa naao choudhharee koorree poorae thhaao || The trouble-maker is called a leader, and the liar is seated with honor. naanak guramukh jaaneeai kal kaa eaehu niaao ||1|| O Nanak, the Gurmukhs know that this is justice in the Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||1||

Isn't Glassy Junction owned by the Khambay family who make themselves out to be "Gursikhs" at Clifton Road Gurdwara? Are they linked to Sohi or Malhi now?

Rehat maryada issues are of high importance. If the intentions of SCUK are to be some kind of Sikh "Think Tank" they need to be clear cut on principles and not just formalise anything and then label it Sikh. When volatile community/panthic issues develop in the UK, then Scuk will have to be either commending or condemning. They can't get away with sitting on the fence. It would be useful to understand what level of panthic Scuk expect to be. We have seen sell outs like BSC drop their "Khalistan" agenda as an when it suits them and for that many of us think they are a waste of space. Scuk have so far given us wish washy lingo with focus solely on membership. On one side members come on Sikh Channel say they promote Akal Takht Maryada and in the same interview they mention that they will not interfere in the maryada issues of Gurdwaras. So what is the point. In my view, SCUK seem to have formalised to push out the likes of individuals Inderjit Singh, Dr JS Rai, Kashmir Singh, Gurmukh Singh, Harmander Singh as cosy government consultants. Fair enough, good move. But what about dharmic issues, satkaar issues, rehat maryada issues which we expect Scuk to lead. There's no clarity on that.

Somehow expected that answer. Have any young people come forward who regularly use this forum? Bundha Ji, have you? Any first hand experiences about the panthic "appetite" that is formalising?

Remember the story "The Emporer's New Clothes". An Emperor who cares for nothing but his wardrobe hires two weavers who promise him the finest suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is unfit for his position or "just hopelessly stupid". The Emperor cannot see the cloth himself, but pretends that he can for fear of appearing unfit for his position or stupid; his ministers do the same. When the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they dress him in mime and the Emperor then marches in procession before his subjects. A child in the crowd calls out that the Emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is taken up by others. The Emperor cringes, suspecting the assertion is true, but holds himself up proudly and continues the procession. I do wonder if this whole self back patting that's being created about this council is nothing more than the story above. So far the same faces seem to keep coming forward telling us how amazing this is but no one is telling us what the SCUK will take on. Will they take on Gurdwara Satkaar issues or are Satkaar issues going to be classified as "bickering" issues as per comments made on the live Panth Time last week?? And before anyone comes back with the answer, "why don't you put yourself forward", please give some clarity on what SCUK will take on in terms of real Panth issues before leading us into believing this is the best thing that has ever happened when nothing has even happened.

Interesting. Under the present European Human Rights Law, can a Gurdwara Committee to be successfully taken court if they operate a selection of their members from a caste only and discriminate against an indvidual based on caste? Or is this something for the Charity Commission to review only?

Its a shame the thread's going off the specific topic into a personal feud between 2 indviduals. For the sake of the issue, I beg the 2 guys to carry on elsewhere. Within the peripheries of the Gurdwara Sahib Gurmat must prevail. Theres no excuse for that not happening whatsoever. These are controllable boundaries for Sikh maryada, outside these physical boundaries one can argue that Manmat is highly likely to dominate. Our Gurdwaras are the central hubs of our Sikhi. The activities which take place in these Gurdwara give direction to millions of Sikhs on how to conduct their lives. If our hubs are disciplined then we leave little room for corruption to set in. If our hubs allow immoral activities to set in then no doubt the congregation are likely to be influenced or use the immoral activities to justify un-Sikh activities. This Satkaar campaign is a simple request to keep the Gurdwara property a pavitar place. A pavitar place where papis like me are blessed with Amrit not barcadi or whiskey. If people who have appointed themselves custodians of these Gurdwaras (i.e. the Committee) are unable to see the moral dilemma they cause by promoting alcohol, meat and parties, then hopefully Gurbani will guide them. If they fail to understand Gurbani then hopefully a Sandesh will guide them. If that fails then hopefully Sangat pressure will guide them. In simple terms. There is no excuse to allow alcohol, meat etc. on the premises of any Gurdwara complex.

The Scottish Singhs need to be made aware of the issue. There's a strong naujwaan Panthic group in Glasgow who really helped with the Edinburgh Gurdwara issue. Please get in touch with them first. I'll PM you some email addresses.

The Panth Time due to be recorded on 10th December at RST was announced on the previous weeks Live Panth Time (4th December) by Prof Gurnam Singh. It must have then been cancelled.

Sounds similar to what was happening in Watford a few years ago. 2 groups fell out and one group decided to carry out a monthly diwan in a local community hall whilst the other ran the Guru Ghar. At the end of the day, the Granthi Ji who does the sewa of Maharaj's Saroop should know better than to be taking Maharaj's pavitar saroop to the local community hall which will allow meat, sharab etc. There is a Hukumnama which forbides us Sikhs from doing this. What does the local Guru Ghar say on the issue? What about the other Guru Ghars in the surrounding areas? The local community need to get together and resolve this. They should take the responsiblity of sorting this "fall out" out as they may understand the history behind the issue. Are all the local Gurdwaras aware of the issue? I'm sure they can step in.

This adverts so cringeworthy! Even her hair turned bottle blonde!!! I personally thought she looked better in the before roop rather than the after roop.

If these threats are "true" then surely the committee should be reporting this to the Police. The committee seem to be attempting to portray a link to some criminal damage which took place a few years ago. I think it is a ploy to deflect attention from the real issue. Just like Dr Bhogal does on Sikh Channel by continually pushing the whole corruption of Sri Akal Takht Sahib as a reason to not accept Gurmat principles (via an issued Hukumnama, Sandesh). Even the SCUK special show on Saturday evening on the Sikh Channel showed a committee representative of RST attempting to claim Akal Takht Maryada may isolate some Sikh communities.

I have caught Punjab Radio on Sky 0130 covering the issue and they had a discussion programme on the party hall beadbi by specific committees last week. They invited a Dal Khalsa UK representative to talk about the party halls beadbi. Sikh Channel have at least produced a Panth Time special on the issue and covered the Grays protest. However, most of our Sikh media (TV, Radio, Print, On-line) are still not mature and independent enough to take on coverage of these kinds of issues. Some are tied into loyalties with certain contributing committees whilst others simply do not possess the infrastructure or resource to cover a real-time panthic issue. I don't think we are still getting the best of our Sikh media and it may take several years, perhaps a decade, before we are really comfortable to be open and independent about resolving Panthic issues with our own media tools.

Sorry if this is off topic, but someone sent me the above link some time back. Shows how some Students in Michigan University co-ordinated a silent walk out protest. Pretty impressive impact. There is an approach to non-violent protesting that can gain public support. As Sikhs we have the right to express our serious concerns via non-violent protesting. There may be an element of bias/racism in media coverage, but I personally think a significant element of adverse coverage in relation to Sikhs protesting boils down to how the protest campaign is carried out, the transparency of the protesters and the marketing of the protest. Many articulate Sikhs are still media shy and not willing to come forward to represent Sikhs when something adverse is being reported or we put the wrong people forward to represent the Sikh perspective (Behzti play was a prime example of this). This then allows negative Sikh reporting to succeed.

Except for the embarrassing pronunciations and some incorrect references to Guru Hargobind Sahib, I thought the report is pretty accurate. The interviews with the public are really good and reflect the opinions of the normal "sikh on the street" regarding the abuse of Gurdwara properties. The comparison to other faiths and their protocol regarding their places of worship is really interesting. Even the Methodist Church has a protocol not allowing alcohol, tobacco and parties on Church properties. Interesting coverage overall. We should forward this report to others to raise awareness.

Did anyone attend the Panth Time recording last night at RST Birmingham? Would be interesting to get some feedback on the kind of "mood" the committee portrayed on camera and if the issue of the beadbi allowed in the Hall was actually discussed on the show. I suppose the rest of us will have to watch tonight's broadcast on Sikh Channel at 7pm to find out. Forget the X Factor final or Strictly Come Dancing!

According the RST's published accounts for year end Apr 2008, (signed by Mr PS Bhogal as Gen Sec) the specific income generated from the Jassa Singh Hall was £39k and the total Gurdwara income (inc Hall) generated was £313k. In 2008, the Jassa Singh hall only generated 12% of the total Gurdwara income for the RST. £274k worth of income was generated from the Gurdwara Sahibs's normal activities. As at 2008 RST has a healthy total c/fwd funds balance of £1.4 million. The contribution from the Jassa Singh Hall to this fund balance is pretty insignificant. RST have a sustainable "business" model without any economic justification for immoral income to be generated from the Jassa Singh Hall. The only justification I can make out for the need of the Hall as a party hall is pure Manmat.

Veerji, Welcome to the forum. From your personal viewpoint. Is the serving of alcohol, meat and acceptance of alcohol fuelled parties in a hall dedicated to a great panth rattan Baba Jassa Singh Ramgharia really justifiable as per your interpretation of Sikhism? I myself was born in the “surnames” which may excite people like yourself and my Great Grandfather was key in setting up a Gurdwara in Kenya which was called “Ramgharia” as he was truly proud to be attached to a great Gursikh like Baba Jassa Singh Ramgharia. If Sikhs like my Great Grandfather were here today, I imagine they would have an immense sense of embarrassment at the activities promoted under the “Ramgharia” label today in places like Birmingham. If Baba Jassa Singh Ramgharia and the great Ramgharia misl sardars were here today, how would they feel about the disgusting behaviour of the committee members today? How would they feel about the "Ramgharia" Hall which promotes the very anti Sikh activities they fought against when they stood up to the enemies of the Panth? Ramgharia is not a caste or an ethnicity. The Ramgharia Committee of B'ham seem to have forgotten that the name Ramgharia means ‘defenders of the fort of Waheguru’ And do you truly believe the committee of Ramgharia Sikh Temple B’ham have remained the defenders of Waheguru’s fort?? Bhul Chuk Maaf....

From the sounds of Rana's presentation on the programme so far, it looks like Sikh Channel have dropped the Satkaar issues on tonights show. Either the Grays Committee members did not give an interview in the end or Rana was too uncomfortable to talk about the issue about alcohol, meat and parties in some UK Gurdwaras. Anyway, it's still a very relevant topic that's being discussed at the moment.

Thankyou for reminding us all! Parnaam Shaheeda Nu. Dhan Dhan Baba Darshan Singh Shaheed