deep

what is that suppose to mean? if you have attended and have criticism, fine i humbly request you not to make such claims like that. I thought this forum was positive and to promote positve sikh interaction. such comments are unfair and nothing short of slander (nindya). come to the conference and then offer constructive criticism. hope to see you there.

admin note: veerjee, next time please post messages like this in the events (north america) forum, thanks :wub: -8

when i meant same opinion, i wasn't talking about belief in Sikhism. I was referring is to a the Khmer Rouge belief of Day 0. Where you are not rooted in any land? And believe that most people don't have any attachment to their ethnic cultures...Of course, they do and so long as this movement to criticize those that are attached to their ethnic cultures, you will only exclude people and seem foolish. The Gurus spoke the idiom of the people and that is why they were successful. They took the cultural forms (culture is the living expressions of a land) and transformed them into something better (Diwali, Hola Mohalla, Vasaikhi). That was their genious. Not that they completely rejeccted these things, but they embraced that which was good and turned it into something better. By no means, do I believe that Sikhi is not a universal religion that can appeal to every person, regardless of race, and is not restricted by, dependant on, or part of Punjabi culture. That idea isn't radical. However, also being a Panjabi, there is something that even more resonates within me as this land that I am attached to is the same land that the Gurus spilt their blood on and for these same people. Although the message of the Gurus are eternal and hardly restricted to any area. The people of Panjab will always have a special beloved attachment to their Gurus as this is the people that gained so much from their lives. I assume you may not be from a 'pind,' if that is what you believe most people think it is famous for. Most people will tell you the history of their villages. The person that started the village and for whom it was named after. They can tell you the gre at warriors, panchayats, leaders, and other remarkable people that have come out of the village. As far as Gujratis outnumbering the Panjabis at these mela that seems a rather racist comment to make, especially from one that should not divide people. But to answer your question, it matters where you are from. I went to the Yuba City Mela 2 weeks ago and I am certain that the ethnically Panjabi group were in the majority and had a great time at a great family-oriented functoin that did not serve alcohol or any other intoxicant. It was just a great festival for the entire family. You know your last comment was especially interesting. Many brahmans, in order to mock the Sikhs, would say that Sikhs have no culture, except agriculture. You seem to subscribe to this paradigm. The canal colonies left in W. Panjab were vastly more fertile, you are right, but to the credit of the Sikh farmer the productivity in E. Panjab is much higher than that of their W. Panjabi brethren. Panjabis in America have much to talk about. Those still engaged in agriculture will discuss that. Those engaged in other occupations will discuss that. Seems rather racist. Can African-Americans only talk about rap music and sports? If they talk about something else, are they no longer black?

are you serious? :wub: do you really think that is all panjabi culture is? is your definition of culture so narrow?

are you serious? where do these questions go? how do you start with certain topics and end up in only god-knows where......too strange and too funny. does everyone here pretty much have the same opinion? how homogeneous and non-diverse?the cultural police strikes again.

You know I read these comments with much interest. My own grandfather fought in N. Africa against Hitler's great Desert Fox (Rommel). I use to think this was something of great honor and bravery. I think my beliefs have changed. A far greater honor is that he took part of in Guru Ka Bagh. Don't compare the services of the Sikhs of WWII compared to those Shaheeds of '84. My grandfather and those with him were serving a cause that wasn't there own. Like I said, much has been made in my own progression on this. They were serving a ruthless master that could enslave them at home and kill them with ease at Jallianwala Bagh. The Shaheeds of '84 were of a different calling. They were fighting, not in an "army." They didn't get paid wages. The only comparison is maybe the "Dharmi Faujis" that left their barracks and were captured on route to Punjab. They were fighting for their "dharam." It is a higher calling. No doubt, some joined their movement for selfish reasons and by the end many looteras had infiltrated the movement. Also the movement had suffered from militants losing track of the "higher" cause and becoming entangled in the petty problems of the Panjabi village. To continue learning, I want to urge all to attend Jakara 2004 this year in Fresno as we "Remember 1984."

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh Instead of criticizing us and judging us by our website, come to the conference and have first hand information. Don't judge a book by its cover. Come to the conference. If you still have differences and difficulties then by all means post them. Give us constructive criticism. As an organizer, it is hard for me to take constructive criticism from those that have never attended. Sincerely, naindeep

The Jakara conference is open to all 18-35. It will be from June 24-27th in Fresno, CA. This year we will be discussing and exploring 1984. For more information visit Jakara www.jakara.org

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh I have seen these statements made in the past and they are always false. These comments are taken out of context and without understand their meanings. I have done translations of these on GT Road Radio, specifically stanzas from Asa Ki Vaar (that one referenced 'Ram-Leela'). If you provide me page numbers and whatever you feel is the most 'damning' against dancing, then send me that page number and I will proceed to translate it. Until then, do not quote 'half lines' without meaning or context. Gur Fateh, deep

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh I appreciate the concern, questions, and issues raised by other Sikh brothers and sisters about Jakara. This is how we grow as an organization and continue to make progress as an institution. I am one of the organizers of Jakara and would be more than pleased to listen to suggestions and answer any questions. If any of my responses on this forum do not satisfy, please feel free to email me privately at (deep@#). However the best way to have all your questions and concerns settled is to actually attend the conference. I hope to see you there! Although many former attendees and supporters have answered most questions in depth, I did want to touch on a few questions raised about 'losing our mission.' We have "started good but they [us] ENDED IN CHOOSING the choice TO PLEASE THE AUDIENCE cauz they collect 150 bucks per person." While I am more than willing to discuss any questions about finances, there are questions raised that are more concerning. In fact we do not even cover our costs through the registration. Jakara is heavily subsidized by the local Sangat and all appreciation must be extended to the Fresno Sangat for being supportive of the efforts of the local youth. In fact we lose money every year in the sense that our admission price does not cover our costs. If we ever generated ($10,000-$15,000) as claimed, we would not even charge admission for Jakara. We would keep it free for all, inclusive of all expenses. Unfortunately we have no such luxury. Again, if you have concerns about our finances, we are part of a non-profit organization and all our records and accounts are open fo r the public. Returning to the part about us 'losing our mission,' I beg to differ. If anything, I think we have better focused on our mission. I want to quote a section from our website as food for thought on the 'mission of Jakara' Although we have undergone quite a lot of changes since Jakara 2000, five years later we still hold true to our original declaration. Jakara has evolved into an annual Sikh Conference where students, putting aside all divisions that fracture the community come together to share their experiences in a comfortable democratic atmosphere. This conference is unique in that it is an attempt at a grassroots conference run exclusively by students addressing both our social and religious concerns so that we are closer to an understanding of ourselves as members of a Sikh community. It is also unique in that its focus is very different than other Sikh camps and conferences. Constructive criticism has helped us define our goals and intent. In the Panthic Reht Maryada, two operant levels are described – the individual and corporate responsibilities. A great number of institutions address the individual responsibilities with success. However, we felt that there has been a lack from organizations in addressing the corporate responsibilities. What are the corporate responsibilities of the Sikh Quam? We do not claim to have the answers, but are trying to provide a forum where these things can be discussed and entertained. I do not believe that the corporate responsibility is to have everyone keep their hair; this is people's individual responsibilities not the responsibility of the whole. The corporate responsibilities involve the pursuit of justice, liberty, freedom, fraternity, and equality (to only name a few). Jakare does not seek to enforce some type of personal puritanism, but rather focus on issues that deal with the Quam as a whole. We know the problems; it is now time to find the solutions. As the next generation of Sikhs , we are the inheritors of the Sikh tradition and we will determine its future - Jakara is your chance to have your voice heard. As the conversation turns to discuss the merits or demerits of dancing, I find this conversation particularly entertaining. Why are conversations in our community so degenerate? While I agree with you that SSAs should stay away from bhangra competitions (unless they are highly organized, because with so little time and human resources -- time can be better utilized), this should in no mean that are Sikhs to refrain from 'cultural' activities. So many people use easy equations: Sikhi = good; Punjabiyat = bad. I feel for these people. They cannot enjoy the Waris Shah's Heer; they cannot feel Bulleh Shah's Kafian; they cannot understand the passion of Mirza; they cannot understand Bhai Gurdas and his love for the Guru; they cannot feel the dugga of the dhol and how it reverberates in your soul; they cannot understand their sisters as they sing their suhaags; they cannot understand the Earth; they cannot understand the soil; they cannot understand their land, because they have no culture. You do not have to be a Punjabi to be a Sikh. but if you are Sikh you must understand that they spilt their blood to fertilize the soil of Punjab. One time in a discussion, a person suggested that since the current predicament in India is so poor for the Sikhs and since the Akal Takht is under the control of the GOI, Sikhs should create a 6th Takht in Canada. All of us laughed. For those that have been blessed to visit Darbar Sahib and Kesgarh Sahib, then they too can describe their feelings and emotions there. To walk the same dharthi as our Sikh Gurus left me on my knees. That feeling could never be recreated in Canada. Do not 'limit' your culture to mere dancing and drinking. That is not culture that is just degenerate, if that is the limit of your culture. Celebrate your culture, live your culture, and take pride in it. Not to the point where you hate others, but where you can love what you have. I am Punjabi. I am a Sikh. I love my Gurus. I love my Punjabi zuban. At Jakara we allow for cultural expression. We are not the Taliban. We do not allow alcohol or other intoxicants. All participants are of a responsible age (18+). Just as churches host youth socials, I believe that Sikhs must do the same if they are going to keep the youth attached to the Gurdwara. This does not surrender to any core beliefs, but only to make the Gurdwara relevant. I welcome your replies Gur fateh, deep