Khaalis

FGM is a crap comparison - that is a practice that is forced on girls, not one which both girls and boys follow with their own free will out of resprect for their Pratents/age old traditions. Guru Gobind Singhs quote mentions not to marry into Fathers or Mothers gotra, as far I as I am aware, the Khatris practice cousin marriage in Pua and Massi side not Chach/Thya or Mama side. I am not justifying it, I am just saying that we should not be so intolerant and narrowminded so as to not allow other people traditions exist. This attitude will simply make the Khatris hate the mainstream and isolate them, as has happened with the Namdharis. Once this happens, there is never a chance for an educated reconciliation. There is a reason why many Mahapursh like Baba Jagjeet Singh Ji Harkowal attend Namdhari darbars... May be we should focus on our dilution of good practice - someone here mentioned, Pind de rishte being a no go area, they certainly were in my Mums era, but anyone who has communication with Puinjab today will know this has now become a common practice - thanks to MTV/Bhangra trash culture on their TV sets. This is something 'we' can judge as a sick practice - because a long standing sensible/respectful tradition has been defiled in less 1 generation.

gskapoor, please ignore most of the comments here that may have insulted you. Rest, anyone with a basic sociological/anthropological mindset knows that one should not judge others by their own norms, this is a fools game and one that gives birth to hatred and ignorance. Some of the replies here are ridiculous. The said said Sikh group has an inherited tradition which they have been practising for many generations, they are born into it, this does not make them 'lustful' or 'sick' it is simply a cultural norm for them, and one which should not be mocked. By all means, say you don't practice it, give your reason etc, but no need to mock other Sikhs cultural practices. If cousin marriages occur, they will have been with the parents instruction - and as per the respectful Sikh norms, the children would have agreed to their parents choice (as per mainstream Sikh culture). The poster seemed to ask the question from a Sikh Religious perspective, and no one has really answered the question apart from Mokham Singh (thanks for that). Regarding Indian culture, the following article is informative: http://www.vepachedu.org/manasanskriti/menarikam.html

Not quite, lol.

This is great news - I pray these puratan Dal Panth amritsanchaars will be held on an annual basis in the UK, US, CA and increasing to wherever there is Sikh population on this Earth.

I don't about the significance of the date, but its pronounced Dasve(n). Dasme(n) - using the m in this context is slang/pind Punjabi. i.e. Gurbilas Patshaahi Chevi(n), Gurbilas Patshaahi Dasvi(n). Same when we pronounce the author of a shabd i.e. Mahalla Pajnva(n) not Mahalla Panjma(n) , it should be pronounced with an v sound rather than m. Dasm and Dasmesh is used in a different context.

Lol, this thread seems surreal! The claim that you have 5 vaikaar under control is a big one - this would basically meant that you have become victorious over your mind - anyone who achieves this state becomes a Master of the world, school would pose zero problems. I think the problem in many of our youth is this myth that by simply doing Vaheguru simran/paat etc - one achieves everything in the material world - this is not completely correct. Bani/Simran are the tools that guide us to gain those guna that will help us achieve our materialistic goals. Simran helps one to become 'sat' in any field - be it a King, be it a Wife or be it a Warrior for example. It is what made Sri Ram Chandar a true King - one who did seva of his subjects rather than expecting them to serve him. Simran ensures all is God Orientated - without simran all acts are futile. At the same time - we need to do abyaas and apply dhyaan/himmat in that field in which we want to achieve - our practice of Sikhi will simply grace that (enable Gurus ashervaad) which we apply effort to. We need to get out of this mindset that by doing paat/simran 'alone' - we can become efficient/successful on the battlefield or the academic field - the same way Gurmat gyaan is needed to learn about and apply simran/naam abyaas, gyaan of any materialistic field is needed to enable abyaas in that field to truely become successful.

He is from Australia, of Chinese origin. He is a Tarna Dal Nihang from what I remember - who spends most of his time doing seva in a Nihang Chhawnee near Jallandhar. He gained his farla through his amazing Asa Ki Vaar seva - which is usually 3 hours long (puratan). He is a Gurmat Sangeet Vidyaarthi of the esteemed Bhai Balbir Singh Singh Ji - who learnt himself obtained massive Dasam Bani Kirtan Vidya from his own Nihang father and brothers. His style is therefore very reflective of his Vidya Guru.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/qawwali/s/artist.403 Note other shabds on the album too. And here is the puratan Rababi version - direct from Bhai Mardanas legendary kul: http://www.keertan.org/keertan/RARE%20LIVE%20Recordings/Bhai%20Ghulam%20Mohammed%20Chand%20Jee%20Rababi/Satgur%20Nanak%20Pargatiaa%20Miti%20Dhund%20Jag%20Chanan%20Hoaa/05%20Avale%20Allah%20Nuur%20Upayeaa.mp3

"But then again I dont think these NaamDharis at Raj Academy will teach you to do satkar on the True Guru, if anything they are going to give you doubts about the Gurshabad and try to make kirtan a whole ritualistic exercise." Don't be such a Talibans poosh. Naamdhari give more satkaar to Gurus Bani than you will ever know - even if they don't treat Aad Guru as living Guru, they still give it and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib the highest satkaar in terms of being Gurus unchanged words. Their adherance to preservation of Gurus kirtan maryada as per Aad Guru speaks volumes in itself regarding who has satkaar for Gurus bani. The core of their faith being naam simran also speaks volumes about their faith in Aad Guru. Chatanga, Eastern European Gypsies have an extremley rich folk music culture, which has roots in Lok Sangeet, they use the side bellowing Vaaja o this day, not because it is a great saaj, but because it can be bought for peanuts, richer gypies can step up in class and use the violin. The reason saaj don't play a big part in Gypsy folk, is that their musical tradition is largely a sina basina oral one. Guru Nanak Dev ji requested Bhai Firanda to make the 'Sikh' rabab himself so that it perfectly complimented his style of kirtan and the raags that would be used. The Sikh rabab is unique in design, different from all other versions in sound and shape i.e. Afghani Rabab etc. Same goes for the Jori, Saranda, Taus and Dilruba - Guru designed saaj (Dilruba being designed based on the Taus by Khalsa and Gurus agyaa). For us to replace Gurus saaj with our saaj is to replace Gurus mat with our mat. There is no point giving examples of so and so used vaaja, others actions shouldn't concern us, only our actions should concern us. As I said before - as people today preserve Gurus Baana, Gurus Shastar Vidya, Gurus Gurdwarai designs, Gurus maryada in various ways - so should we preserve Gurus kirtan in its entiretly - living in a resource rich western society - we have no excuse that we don't have time or wealth to pursue and preserve Gurus kirtan. It always makes me laugh how people have the money and time to splash out on 50" TV and watch crap programmes/films, but mention the price of a Taus and commitment required to learn it and they have an heart attack. The reason the Vaaja is so popular is because we live in a convenience culture - Gurus culture was not one of convenience, but one of devotion.

Vajaa is a 2ndry issue. The core issue is Maryada. Kirtan maryada is black and white, unlike many other maryada which vary from jathaa to jathaa, because kirtan maryada is clearly stated in Gurbanis Sirlek. Raag is not the 'sugar coating' it is the utensil used to deliver the shabd. We can deliver the shabd with a stoneage tool or we can use that utensil which has been perfectly designed and gifted to us from our Satguru. Its clear here, that most people do not know the 1st thing about raag, yet feel compelled to share their expert opinions. Raag is not a 'tune', its a sentiment driven scientific framework which the Guru Arjun Dev Ji incorporated and used to structure the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The casual passing mention ro raag is positvely offensive to the gigantic effort our 5th Master made to provide the most beautiful and complimentary platform for delivering Gurshabd - luckily the educated Sikh masses are making an excellent effort to do away with the devolved kirtan which has been prevalent in the last 4 decades and are paying top raagis and academics like Dr Gurnaam Singh ji to come and teach them - the Boston Sikh community of US is an excellent example of a progressive, educated and tradition valuing Sikh community. There are many more like them appearing all over the world thanks to the great educative efforts of many real Raagis. The most important aspect of kirtan is shabd, goes without saying, because with Shabd being pardhaan it is not kirtan - be it in a Sufi Pirs Kabar, Vaishnaav Mandhir or Gurdvaara. Without Shabd it is simply Shaastri or Lok Sangeet. The Raag is a hukum, the saaj is a rvaaj, which is why saaj is not as important as hukum. Using Guru Jis saaj is simply a matter of prem between a son (Sikh) and his father (Guru) whereby the son wants to preserve his fathers wisdom and customs. The shame is that it has taken until know for the Sikhs to recognise the horrible noise of and limited ability of the harmonium. The western elites, even though they invented it, nipped it in the bud - leaving only the Eastern European begger Gypsies to adopt it due to its cheap availability as a failed invention. Now the amazing thing is that these people, being the clever strategists they are - somehow persuaded the North Indians to give up their highly advanced saaj and down grade them to a primitive sounding vaaja. Given, it is easy to maintain and play, but since when has 'ease' and shortcut culture been the norm in Sikhi? The funny thing is that saaj and raag are not actually difficult to learn, this is simply a myth that has been propogated for filmi/bhangra/vaaja kirtan apologists. The South Indians fared better than us, they snubbed the Vaaja, but adopted the 'Indian' influenced and excellent violin. They even turned it upside down and played it like a sarangi, taking on manufacturing and building it to Shaastri Saptak/Shruti design - therefore not sacrificing any element of their beautifully preserved ancient Indian kirtan culture (unlike North India). This is an example of real and constructuve evolution, the same as our Gurus incorporation of Islamic saaj and raags in kirtan i.e. Rabaab and Raag Suhi etc).

Gatka and self defence are 2 different things. If you want to learn a real fighting art (I expect Shastar Vidya is out the question, as if it were an option you would have chosen it as there is an Akhaara near you in Leicester every Sunday afternoon) I would suggest something Ninjitsu, Wing Chun, grappling forms and original Kali forms (for weapons), as something that is not a game/sport, but rather a highly practical and useable science. Look up classes for the above in your lcoal area on the internet.

"This question was recently asked to keertani Bhai Kulatar Singh son of keertani bhai Avtar Singh. He answered and advised that in his experience from his father and other previous great kirtani there is nothing wrong in doing naam simran while kirtan." If you are implying doing simran in between a shabd recitation, then I doubt very much Bhai Kultar Singh said that. As per that generation, and as I mentioned before, as was the view of Bhai Randhir Singh, whose present day youth jathaa has made this type of Gurmantar recital popular.. the view was that simran is to be done in sehaaj and shaant - as it is supposed to be an esoteric exercise, not an exoteric one. As those who knew Bhai Avtar Singh Ji, they were a great rehitvaan Gursikh, who spent every spare moment in simran (proper). They were especially known for their amritvela samaadhi and riyaaz. I disagree with the term simran being used to describe what takes place in a fast paced and loud atmosphere today, nothing could me more different from the simran that Puran Brahmgyanis have taught for millenia - simran is one of the 9 methods of Bhakti approved in Ancient Indic tradition, alongside seva and kirtan. It has only changed its appearance in the last 3 decades.

The trend of singing dhuni of Gurmantar in Kirtan was started by Mohinder Singh SDO. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh did not agree with singing of Gurmantar in Kirtan, even though many AKJ youth today follow this trend. As of late, many kirtani jathaai are copying Sant Ranjit Singh due to the popularity he has achieved doing the above. Its a free world, each to their own, one flower has many petals etcetera, but in my personal understanding of Gurbani and the bachan of many Mahapurkh I have heard, Simran - is that which brings 'Sehaj' and stillness to the mind, the 'energetic' simran we hear today may bring euphoria, but I don't believe it can bring that stillness needed to 'recognise our true self'. Yogis, Sadhs have excommincated themselves from society to achive these 'states' for millenia, Aad Guru - Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave us the key to achive these in grhisht - as do Brahmgyaanis - to contemplate and develop prem bhagti through amritvela simran. That simran - to achieve - we are taught by Brahmgyaanis - becomes internalised - where it then causes the atma to rise and bring purity and clarity to the mun.

Not just Bhagvat Gita but many Indic traditions have already propogated the vidya of an all pervading creator - who is Sargun/Nirgun, and of the atma being no different to parmatma even though they appear to exist on a different plane to our meagre minds. He is the Fisherman and he is the fish.

As Jaasa said, if you have a question Islam, why not ask intelligent Muslims about it first (I would suggest Sufi or Shia interpretations). Its like a Muslim going on to a fairly fanatical Muslim website and saying "why is Sikhism so violent, I heard about how Banda Bahadur killed innocent Muslim women and children, and that the 10th Guru got Senior members of his own religion burned alive"... Now we all now the above is a mixture of fact and fiction, and without the correct background and context, cannto be understood correctly. Obvioulsy Muslims who don't have any respect for Sikhi are not going to give the answer are they. Same formula works here.

Yes, doesn't matter if they may have been innocent, God fearing, hard working students... they were Muslim, therefore a fair target. Numskull.

Which clearly shows how puratan traditions are constantly being displaced.

This is an excellent seva, God bless you for promoting and preserving Gurus kirtan.

"But my brother what are you going to surrender by wearing a kirpan. Can't you achieve that by not wearing it? It goes back to my original question, is this not same as wearing the thread of the Brahmans? If Kirpan has no practicality in the modern world, then it's another ritual object. As Sikhs aren't we suppose to move away from rituals." KPhull Ji, are you acquainted with the amrit sanchar ceremony and the divine status of Guru Gobind Singh Ji? 10th Master has ordained the kirpan for all who become 'Singh' via the khande de pahul ceremony. The kirpan is a shaster (weapon) but which is only to be used for the protection of the oppressed (us or any other human). Therefore it is distinct from all other weapons. It is a tool to uphold dharma. Please stop living in false sense of security like the Jews of WW2 or the Delhi Sikhs of 1984, no nation is perfect, man can turn into beast anywhere, anytime as has been proven in history time and time again. The upkeep of the kakaar serve the purpose of ensuring Singhs are disciplined and to serve as a constant reminder of who we are and what our Guru given purpose is. The kirpan ensures we remain brave and face injustice where ever we encounter it - peacefully, and as a last resortm physically. Somewhere you said "we Sikhs", a Sikh is a devout disciple of his Guru, kakaar wearing Sikhs are simply this. I would also like to add, the word ritual is being used in a negative connotation, this is wrong. There are good rituals and bad rituals, rituals govern everyones life, no one is exempt.

"forget buying it, how about a link to download it???" This is the exact cheapskate Punjabi attitude which is responsible for Sikhs being behind every other faith in the world in terms of organisation, administration, promotion and education. If we supported those that make a tremendous effort in Kirtan, Dhadhi, Kathaa, Media etc - the Panth would be flourishing, instead we have 'demand' led bollywood kirtani and kathaakar/Babai and 1 Sikh Channel. Be responsible and intelligent, don't buy one copy, buy several and distribute them to your young nieces and nephews etc. More sales will equal more productions. Please lets stop cutting our own throats - support real Raagis/Dhadis as well, buy their albums, so that they produce more quality work and secure the heritage for future generations.

Again, it depends on the context. I was simply saying that if you want to share yuor 'joy' thnk carefully about who you are sharing it with - in the momentt, we often loose any sense of social responsibility and sensitivity i.e. why jump for joy re your driving test in front of someone who has failed 3 times. share what you need to, and do it wisely. Yuor grades, its only your immediate family (parents and siblings who need to know) anyone else, wait for them to ask, then tell them in a humble (guru di kirpa etc) way - try remain sombre (in control of emotions) when telling people. Key is to try and keep communication useful and Gurmat at all times, sansaari talk will get you into conflict with sansaari lok.

Just focusing on that example. Its all about social responsibility if we take a commonsensical stance – people are seldom happy with others success – that’s common sense – esp in Punjabi circles, most fallings out and misdeeds occur because of sibling rivalry in one way, shape of form. Guru keeps us away from these dangers by telling us to be simple, talk less, eat less and sleep less. These hukums contain vast gyaan and power in life – and serve as protection against the negative forces in man. Guru Sahib says: ਸੁਖ ਕਉ ਮਾਗੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਮਾਗੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ Everyone begs for happiness; no one asks for suffering. ਸੁਖੈ ਕਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਅਗਲਾ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ But in the wake of happiness, there comes great suffering. The self-willed manmukhs do not understand this. <A href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੁਖ">ਸੁਖ ਦੁਖ ਸਮ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣੀਅਹਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥ Those who see pain and pleasure as one and the same find peace; they are pierced through by the Shabad. || We don’t need to show our joy for secular/wordly success – reserve your joy for having darshan of the ‘ones’ charan. I know this is easy to say and hard to follow, but the Sikh Marg is not for the faint hearted/willed. If we treat sorrow and happiness as one – there in lies our success and protection against other peoples weakened states (slaves of 5 vaikaar). It also helps us to bring our own haumai (Root of 5 Vaikaar) under control – vaikaar cause sorrow and pain both. If you want to tell people, tell people who you know will be happy for you. If some asks you the question, tell them, in a sombre way. We should try and utmost not to volunteer self success to others, on the same note, we should not show overly happiness at others success as we simply help their haumai to flourish.

A good start would be to give examples of the 'truths' you are talking about. If someone is short, then you don't have to tell them 'you're short'. If someone is stealing, then as a Sikh you should confront them. As an example.

Although this guy is clearly an afghani and confused person, esp his saying only Aad guru Bani can be sung (strange when Guru has given kirtan instructions in Sri Dasam Guru and Sri Sarbloh Guru Darbar). we should not throw the baby out with the bath water - naam is all encompassing it has several meanings in Gurbani - depending on which context is has been used - it doesn't 'only' refer to Gurmantar Jaap. Ultimtely naam is a state of being - when one learns to listen (as per Jap Ji Sahib) - correct kathaa will do nothing but drown that being in naam ras... so lets not get over excited.. with all due respect.

At last - quality programming has started on the Sikh Channel - hopefully this trend will now continue - with Sants, Ithihaasic Kathaakar, Dhadis, Raagis who have actually dedicated their life to their specialisms in order to share Gurmat in its high level beauty with the sangat (as was done in Gurus royal court). SC needs to put on the hundreds of Sant singh Maskeen divaans amongst other top Gursikh educators back on at prime time too, rather than bollywood kirtan and claim flipping card today (wasting most the time). Kam, do you think they would show Swami Parmanands divaans?