Singhballer

I have responded to the views and arguments expressed by Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji in the above video. I apologize for the length. Maryada Guru Gobind Singh Ji made one maryada Correct, he gave the Khalsa one maryada How do we as Sikhs determine what that maryada is? The first step is to compile and analyze all historical documents and literature that shed light on the Khalsa's maryada at the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and the early 18th century. Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji has not presented any historical research or analysis to prove what was the original Khalsa maryada If people take Amrit at different places, can their views ever be the same? They can be the same and are the same for a vast majority of topics. Udasis, Nirmale, Taksaal/Giani, Nihang Singhs all have maryadas that differ, however all of these sampardas agree on the foundational principles and values of Sikhi. The areas they have differing views on (meat, length of mool mantar, keski as a kakaar) are all smaller details and subsidiary aspects of maryada. The sampardas agree on the core of how to understand, practice, and experience Sikhi. Sampardas/Babas claim their maryada is supreme I have never heard any Samparda/Baba make the claim that their maryada is above all others. Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji must provide evidence of showing that a specific Samparda/Baba has claimed this Sampardas may voice the merits of their maryada, that it is based on historical rehitnamas or has been in place and untouched for hundreds of years, but that does not mean that they come from an egotistical position of "holier-than-thou" as Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji is trying to paint their position as Babas put their own views into maryada and spread it using Amrit/Panj Pyare. They do this in order to build a unique identity, to avoid making one Panthic maryada, and get "Star Baba" treatment Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji is relying solely on his perception to reach the conclusion that what Sampardas/Babas are doing is undoubtedly with nefarious intentions Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji may be using a logical fallacy here related to apophenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia). Specifically, he is connecting patterns of behaviour (Sampardas/Babas preaching their maryada) with meaning and intention (doing it for selfish reasons + to divide the Panth) without providing any evidence to prove that supposed intention In order to make this claim, Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji must have evidence that can prove the intention, motives, and mental thoughts the Samparda/Babas he is pointing to Without providing any evidence, Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji has created a toxic narrative about Sampardas/Babas which then will transplant into the minds of his followers/listeners fermenting further disdain for fellow Sikhs Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji believes everyone should conform to the Akal Thakt Maryada because he believes it is the closest to Gurmat Is the Akal Thakt maryada the one that was given to the Khalsa by Guru Gobind Singh Ji? Obviously not. So then why is this maryada considered the most accurate one by Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji? He offers no historical historical research or written sources to prove that this maryada is most in line with the maryada Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji, and the missionary parchariks at large, are interpreting Sikhi using western philosophy (logic/science). This results in a distorted, warped, and inaccurate understanding of Gurmat. Thus, we cannot believe his assertions of a particular maryada being in line or out of line with Gurmat because his understanding of Gurmat is, at its core, flawed Background on Akal Thakt Maryada Sources: The Sikh Reht Maryada, The 50 Year History of the SGPC by Shamsher Singh Ashok Is this maryada Panth Parvanit? Has it been passed and approved by the Panth? Or the Akal Thakt? The answer, which may surprise many, is NO. The SGPC created a committee in 1927 to create a Sikh Rehit Maryada The 29 original members of this committee included: Sant Sundar Singh Ji of Damdami Taksal, Akali Kaur Singh of the Nihangs, Sant Sangat Singh Ji of the Sevapanthis, Bhai Kahan Singh Ji Nabha, Sant Gulab Singh Ji Gholia, Bhai Vir Singh Ji, Sant Man Singh Ji Khankhal of the Nirmale, Bhai Randhir Singh Ji of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha + more 11 of these original members, including representatives from Taksal, AKJ, Nirmale, and Sevapanthis, as well as, Bhai Vir Singh Ji and Prof. Jodh Singh Ji, were never present at the deliberations that took place Over the years additional comments and opinions were incorporated from dozens of other Sikhs, but whole sections of the Panth still were not part of the deliberations Committees were constituted over the years and discussions/debates took place in 1927, 1931, 1932, 1933, The 1933 deliberations were at an impasse and they were put on hold for a undetermined amount of time. These were the last deliberations In 1936, without any further deliberations taking place to get full consensus and approval from the Panth, it was passed by the SGPC The current version you see today is everything the Panth could agree upon as being the "at minimum" maryada. They still were deliberating on other details and aspects where they couldn't build consensus. At no point was this maryada passed by the representatives of the Panth to be the governing maryada for all Sikhs. It was still a work-in-process document As pointed out earlier, sections of the Panth did not even have the chance to take part in the deliberations, therefor the resulting document is still incomplete in that respect too Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji believes the Akal Thakt Maryada is supreme and "is the best one to make us one" He wants everyone to conform to the Akal Thakt Maryada as a prerequisite for Panthic unity, yet this is a maryada that is incomplete and left halfway through deliberations Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji views other maryadas as "going backwards" He has already decided that other maryadas from different Sampardas are nonsense He wants all Sikhs to conform to the Akal Thakt maryada first, and then make any changes This is illogical. Why not deliberate and agree on a maryada first before making it applicable to the whole Panth? It seems he wants one Panthic maryada but only on his terms. Not with the samvaadh and consensus of the entire Panth. He is unwilling to consider the merits of other Sikhs' views and any historical/philosophical evidence they might present Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji says "Babas divided the maryada" How can Babas have divided the maryada if there was never one singular maryada to begin with? Before the 1936 SGPC passed maryada, there were already numerous versions being followed Rather, one singular maryada has never been constituted and passed by the entire Panth Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji makes numerous claims of "you believe in x, y, z" which is against Gurmat Instead of addressing the individual person who may have said what he finds frivolous, he paints all those who disagree with his viewpoints with the same brush He generalizes here to depict all those who don't agree with him to be nonsensical. He does not distinguish. This creates animosity in his followers/listeners for everyone who disagrees with him Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji says "I say what seems right to me" He shouldn't say what seems right to him. He should say what is right according to the Guru If others in the Khalsa Panth think the viewpoint and philosophy he is using to determine "what is right" is incorrect and flawed, he should want to genuinely hear out critiques, not dismiss them The excuse that all those who don't agree with him are violent is a farce. There are plenty he could have a genuine conversation with History Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji says "he only accepts history that is correct" He brings forth no historical evidence, new research, documentation, or archaeological discoveries to disprove accounts in Suraj Parkash He does not even mention that Suraj Parkash is an unedited Granth and the Brahmin assistants of Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh Ji inserted their own writings into his work He either does not know the history behind Suraj Parkash or is purposely withholding these facts from his followers/listeners The tall tales the Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji is referencing in Suraj Parkash is not accepted BY ANYONE in the Panth. However, Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji seems to be implying that the Samparda parchariks do believe in those tall tales Can Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji provide a single example when anyone has done Katha of those sections in Suraj Parkash? These parts are entirely omitted from katha or an explanation of the inaccuracies are given. He is using this point to show other parchariks in a negative light by implying they believe and do katha of these tall tales If Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji thinks something in our history is false, he must prove his case. It is foolish to state you think something is wrong but not show your opinion is based on evidence To disprove those written accounts one must: Do their own historical research, find additional written sources, do archaeological studies, that result in differing evidence Bhai Vir Singh Ji did that in his Suraj Parkash Steek There are inaccuracies in Suraj Parkash due to: 1. Incomplete information compiled by Bhai Santokh Singh Ji 2. Tampering and alteration of his work by his Brahmin assistants  Bhai Vir Singh Ji brings forth additional evidence through his own historical research to show that some things in the Granth are inaccurate. Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji says "they already killed one of our guys" He's implying with "they", that everyone who disagrees with him or find inaccuracies in his views are of the same group of people who tried to kill him Card Stacking Card stacking is a method of argumentation in which important counter-arguments are purposefully omitted, creating an imbalance of evidence in an effort to bias the argument This is a logical fallacy that Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji seems to make use of over and over in his arguments. I don't know if its intentional or unintentional but it misleads people and is a deceitful tactic

Your views and points may be 100% sound, but others who think differently (even if they're mistaken) will resist actually giving your thoughts any due consideration if you take an adversarial tone. Referring to any parcharik and those that share their line of thinking in a belittling or degrading way will have them go deaf to any legitimate and factual points you have. If you talk to them in an impolite way they will reject every point you make and become even more firm in their own views. If your aim is to show others that they may be misled or have an incorrect understanding, than that is completely counterproductive to your goal. I say this as your haami, not your virodhi.

Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji and the missionaries are very evasive to having any discussion. Whenever someone has gotten a chance to sit with them and pose some questions to them they become combative, begin leveling allegations at others, finger pointing, speak over the questioner, stray away from the question, and ultimately don't address any question/point being raised. Here is one such example involving Sarabjit Singh Ji Dundha not addressing the questions raised to him and avoiding giving a straight answer: Try your best to keep emotions out of it. I can relate to your feelings of exasperation and frustration. In those cases, just put up all the arguments, evidence, and facts you have. If the person genuinely is considering the points you raise, continue having that conversation. When they aren't genuinely trying to engage with you, end the discussion and don't waste any further time. But leave all your arguments and ideas for others to see, hear, read, etc. wherever you're having the conversation. At least that's what my short experience tells me is best to do.

I appreciate it! But one thing I really believe is that when we have differences in opinion or we think people in our Panth are heading down the wrong track, we must do our best to try and have a constructive conversation with them. It shouldn't be an adversarial or hostile exchange. When you antagonize someone who opposes you via name calling, snide comments, or projecting them in a negative light, they just dig in and become more entrenched in their views. That neither helps you in trying to introduce them to different ideas or convince them that their current opinions may be wrong. It pumps our ego when we 'stick it' to someone but it changes nothing. Opinions just become more polarized. People need to try and more plainly state their views, provide arguments, reference evidence, and let others engage with your ideas. I find it's the only way to really get through to others. There are scholars in our Panth that would be more than capable to have such discussions on all these philisophical/historical debates, but I find Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji and the missionaries are very evasive when it comes to sitting down for a discussion. Imagine a 1-2 hour discussion on a single topic Two sides can make their opening statements about what they're views are on the topic Each side is then capped to 10-15 minute periods to make their arguments and respond to the opposing side A neutral person can moderate, to keep everyone on time and force everyone to address and respond to the arguments raised by either side Debaters would be kept accountable. They'd have to respond to every point raised Viewers would be able to easily see who's arguments are backed up with facts and evidence Such a discussion would actually be fruitful to dispelling peoples' misinformed views

Yes, but I should also add that some parts are also not accepted and criticized by vidhvaans and kathavachiks from the Nirmale, Taksal, Nihang Singhs, and other samparda. These parts are entirely omitted from katha or an explanation of the inaccuracies are given. As mentioned previously, there are historical inaccuracies in the Suraj Parkash due to information that wasn't possessed by Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh. However, Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji and missionaries don't often pinpoint these issues (I doubt they've done the research in order to do so) but instead point our the writing in Suraj Parkash they believe to be against Sikhi. Many of such writings are tamperings with the granth done by Kavi Ji's Brahmin assistants. A bit of background on Suraj Parkash Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh, who was sponsored by the Raja of Kaithal to complete Suraj Parkash, employed five (if I recollect correctly) Brahmin assistants to transcribe his rachna/poetry Those assistants were necessary as Kavi Ji needed learned persons who knew Brij and the technicalities of poetry The assistants inserted their own writing into Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh Ji's poetry Some of this is obvious to those knowledgeable in Poetry. The tamperings sometimes don't follow the matra/meters of Kavi Ji's own writing Kavi Ji left Kaithal three times in protest of this happening. But was convinced to stay as this huge undertaking of compiling all Sikh history was too important not to finish Kavi Ji finished the Suraj Parkash, with the tampered writings still in the granth and did not undertake any editing of it (he was in poor health) When Kavi Ji presented Suraj Parkash to the Panth he stipulated that the granth has tampering and mistakes in it, and that the Khalsa Panth should do sudhaayi/editing of the granth as they see fit All of the above details are to the best of my recollection from listening to Suraj Parkash katha. So are there false accounts in Suraj Parkash? Yes. To this day the Panth has not edited Suraj Parkash, as per Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh Ji's wishes Bhai Vir Singh Ji did a full steek/translation of Suraj Parkash and pointed out these mistakes and inaccurate accounts Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwale agreed with Bhai Vir Singh Ji's conclusions But the Panth never started a samvaadh to edit Suraj Parkash once and for all The issue with Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji and the missionaries' rejection of Suraj Parkash They bring forth no historical evidence, new research, documentation, or archaeological discoveries to disprove accounts in Suraj Parkash The accounts they view as being false (due to it being against Sikhi), may well be, but one has to be weary of their opinions because: Their understanding of Sikhi/Gurbani is distorted, warped, and inaccurate due to their nazariya/viewpoint being rooted in western philosophy (logic, science, etc.), as I discussed in my previous posts Since they have an inaccurate understanding Sikhi/Gurbani, their assertions that Suraj Parkash is against Sikhi are hard to trust They excessively demonize Suraj Parkash. Their listeners greatly detest Suraj Parkash as they have no knowledge about the background of our historical texts They fail to realize that without these granths they have no source material for talking about any Guru history It seems to me that Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji and the missionaries want to throw the baby out with the bath water. To throw out our entire history because of tamperings/mistakes in an unedited Suraj Parkash

No worries. Listening yes, no reading/santhiya. In particular, the end of the Suraj Parkash, Guru Gobind Singh Ji's and Baba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur's history is what I have the most recollection of.

Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh Ji, was a poet indeed, but beyond that he was an immense vidhvaan of the Panth. He was a great scholar and theologian too, as is exemplified by his Japji Sahib translation in his Garab Ganjani Teeka. I would say Bhai Santokh Singh Ji also fits the mold of an historian. It was immense work and research he did compiling historical literature/records, recording oral accounts, visiting historical sites, and then analyzing all the information, scrutinizing it for accuracy, and compiling it all into the poetic masterpiece that is Suraj Parkash. He may even be the Panth's foremost historian!

The main fault that Sikhs find with Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji's parchaar, I think, is the following: He is redefining Sikhi, Gurbani, our history, our traditions, our culture, our literature, by using western philosophy (logic, science, etc.), that too with an incomplete comprehension of it Specifically, he is interpreting Sikhi through a lens that is not Gurmat, but a foreign philosophy. Thus it leads to: His interpretations causing him to change core principles and values of Sikhi His distorted understanding of Sikhi leads him to renounce and discard Panth-approved Sikh history Is it wrong to "call out" history/sakhian? In short, no. But to disprove accepted history, you have to have evidence the written history is factually incorrect, that the Poet's research was flawed, or that the written history is philosophically incorrect, that it is plainly against Sikh values and principles. Our written history is compiled in many granths (Suraj Parkash, Panth Parkash, Gurbilas Patshaahi 6, etc.), and each written by different poets (Bhai Santokh Singh, Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangoo, etc.) To disprove those written accounts one must: Do their own historical research, find additional written sources, do archaeological studies, that result in differing evidence Bhai Vir Singh Ji did that in his Suraj Parkash Steek There are inaccuracies in Suraj Parkash due to: 1. Incomplete information compiled by Bhai Santokh Singh Ji 2. Tampering and alteration of his work by his Brahmin assistants Bhai Vir Singh Ji brings forth additional evidence through his own historical research to show that some things in the Granth are inaccurate. For example, some of the battles of Baba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur are stated to have taken place in the wrong villages I don't believe Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji has done any santhiyaa/adhyaain of any of those historical granths. You may notice he doesn't present any new historical or archaeological evidence when denouncing historical accounts. To prove them to be inauthentic it requires immense work and research, which he is not doing. Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of Sikhi/Gurbani, but for it to be accepted in the Panth's court, it has to be rooted in the Guru's Mat. As I said in my original post, even the RSS has their own interpretation of Sikhi and the Khalsa (as the military wing of Hindus created to protect Hindustan). But their interpretation comes from the viewpoint of Hindu philosophy In the same way Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji, and the missionary parchariks at large, are interpreting Sikhi using western philosophy (logic/science). This results in a distorted and skewed understanding of Sikhi that is incorrect. The Panth largely agreed on a vast majority of Sikhi values, principles, and history. Its okay to challenge these if done with sound evidence and relying on Gurmat, and not a foreign philosophy. Sikhs are upset with Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji because his challenges are not evidence based and are rooted in non-Sikh philosophies. There have been differing interpretations of Sikhi/Gurbani for hundreds of years. But you will notice the differences of the interpretations are not that large. All the different Viakhiya or interpretations by the Udasis, Nirmale, Gianis/Taksaal, and Nihang Singhs are within the same spectrum of thought. Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji and the missionaries are creating a completely new off-shoot and spin-off of interpretation that is not based on the Guru's mat. To understand the different branches of interpretation within Sikhi, how western philosophy found its way into our interpretations, and an analysis of our current state, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND listening to the following video of Sardar Prabhsharandeep Singh. It will be well worth your 40 minutes. Start at 7:51.

Using logic/science as your fundamental tool to understand Sikhi, Gurbani, Gur-ithihaas, or Gurmat is wrong and misguided. Why is it wrong? When someone uses a philosophy, ideology, or doctrine that does not originate from the Guru to try to develop an understanding of Sikhi/Gurbani, the resulting "understanding" of Sikhi they develop will be distorted, warped, and ultimately incorrect If you use any Mat (a philosophy, like Hindu-Mat, Budh-Mat, Marxism, Existentialism, Western Logic, etc.) to understand Sikhi/Gurbani, you use their viewpoint/principles to define and understand Sikhi/Gurbani To truly understand Sikhi/Gurbani, you must use the world view that the Guru has given us. You must take on the nazariya (perspective, viewpoint, frame of reference) of the Guru and use that to learn, understand, and analyze Sikhi What problems occur when you use a Non-Sikh philosophy? Some Hindus including the RSS use their own philosophical principles to define Sikhi They view the Khalsa as being a sena (fighting force) for the protection of Hindus, that Sikhs are merely a military arm to the wider Hindu community They develop this understanding by using THEIR philosophy/ideology as Hindus, to define US as Sikhs Using Western Philosophy/Logic/Science to define Sikhi is wrong in the same way Specific problems with using Logic/Western Philosophy to define Sikhi Not just Sikhi but can any Dharam be truly understood using logic/science? 1.The subject of Sikhi/Dharam and Logic/Science are two separate things Sikhi's subject matter is the invisible, transcendental (spiritual, non-physical) world, Waheguru, the divine, metaphysics, that which you experience internally, beyond the material world. Logic/Science's subject matter is the visible world. The world you can experience through your five senses, that you can count, measure, observe, and analyze. 2. The foundation of Sikhi and Logic/Science are two separate things Sikhi is anchored in Vishwaash, a faith in the Guru that is unwavering. Logic/Science is anchored in Shanka, in questioning. You begin with suspicion, ask why for everything 3. By using Logic/Science as your benchmark to test what ideas you accept/reject, you've consciously or unconsciously accepted that Logic/Science has as a higher importance than Sikhi If you test Sikhi/Gurbani by using Logic/Science, you automatically are accepting that Sikhi/Gurbani is only correct if it is acceptable by the standards of Logic/Science 4. Logic/Science has a negative/dark side to it Logic/Science brought great acceleration in technologies and development. Along with the many benefits, it has also caused damage to society and our world. Proliferation of nuclear weapons that annihilate nature itself, the creation of extremely potent and fatal recreational drugs, the exploitation of natural resources, climate change that will cause havoc all over the world, etc. If Sikhi is compatible with Logic/Science, than just as Logic/Science has a negative/dark side, Sikhi too must have a negative/dark side. But Sikhi does not For more discourse regarding the interpretation of Sikhi/Gurbani and how Western Philosophy/Logic/Science relates to us as Sikhs I recommend listening to Prof. Prabhsharanbir Singh, Prabhsharandeep Singh, and Sardar Ajmer Singh. The following videos cover these topics if anyone would like an in-depth analysis and explanation by some of our leading Sikh thinkers. Many of the above points are derived from these videos.

On this thread, I was trying to shed light on the view that current discourse/activity by Sikhs is being dominated by issues that are of the surface level and less vital to the long-term health of the nation. The deep rooted issues that is festering like termites in the trunk of the tree is not being addressed. Our energies are going into the wrong directions and our leaders of all sorts and stripes have failed us in corralling our energies toward the most pressing problems of our nation. I recently was listening to this and the speaker points out exactly what we've gotten lost in and what we should have been working on instead. Just a quick listen from 8:15 if you're short for time.

I don't know how much business you've studied but Laissez-faire is an economic term and philosophy specifically referring to the belief that the less involved government/management is in economy and society at large, the better it is for the economy/society. The underlying belief being that self-regulation will guide people to the best possible actions. Being laissez-faire is caring about the consequences; one believes that not getting involved will result in the best possible outcome. It's really not the word you want. Nope, that doesn't bother me. You seem to be forming an opinion about my views without even reading my views. Instead of resorting to conjecture and speculation, just ask. I did show appreciation (you may have overlooked it past my first paragraphs), but as the paltry victories they were. They are miniscule in comparison to the immense, dire, and severe issues of the Panth. The decline of Sikhi in Punjab Due to things like: Proliferation of drugs, lack of parchaar and spiritual sustenance, government suppression of Sikh movements, corruption of Sikh institutions Lack of justice and healing from 1984 and following genocide Tens of thousands Sikhs killed, tortured, detained, made political prisoners, and continued mass impunity for perpetrators Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions Disunity and polarization of Sikh thought and people It's really impossible to sufficiently critique my views (which I welcome and encourage) without reading and analyzing them. Let's end this merry chase here!

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Laissez-faire* refers to the attitude of letting others do as they choose; it's probably not the word you're looking for. Perhaps using French may not best serve your purpose. You actually believed me to be angry (as noted below). I can't view these events as being unimportant and, at the same time, be angry that it did happen. I'd be seriously confused and contradictory if that were the case. What caused it to fester in the first place? If that illness has not been addressed in the past, what plan is there to address it going into the future? I haven't come across any evidence of such planning. In any of the concerns I raised about how the symptom was addressed, do you see no faults? There is disagreement on the Sikh Calendar and Dasam Bani/Philosophy that has morphed into animosity and hatred between Sikhs. By unilaterally making decisions, as Sarna did or Dhumma/Sant Samaj/Badal have done now, does it not expand that divide in the Panth rather than closing it? Would the following strategy not have been better? If there was disagreement on which calendar to use, then that should have been resolved through a Panthic gathering to discuss, debate, and build consensus. With a Panthic consensus the decision being made would be happily taken by all The same goes for Dasam Bani - have a gathering where all the dubious points that detractors make on Dasam Bani can be cleared. Have that discussion and build consensus. That brings people of different thoughts together. The response can't be to shout or hit back. Just restarting parchar is not enough to eliminate the problem. The response has to clear doubts and bring people toward consensus. The people who were already against Dasam Bani or the Bikrami Calendar have not come closer to those ideas but are further alienated and entrenched in their views. They have animosity toward the other side and vice versa. The strategy employed did not help in bridging this divide. Before anyone ever makes a decision on behalf of or in service to, the Panth, they should be doing a mental checklist of standards those decisions should meet. One of which should be: does this act bring the Panth closer toward unity or further away from unity? That consideration should be an integral part of the decision making process. The Sant Samaj's goal is panthic unity. The evidence is in Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale's explanation in my last post. As President of the Sant Samaj, it is also Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's goal. Is having discussion and discourse on different ideas, viewpoints, and issues not something you are pursuing by being on this message board? I've written responses to your and others' points. By voicing your points and not attempting to consider mine, it begs the question: are you even interested in sincere, genuine, honest discussion? I attempted to provide thoughtful and researched responses that may provide some usefulness to yourself and others. Am I failing? I responded to your assertions regarding the Jagir and Nawabi in one of my previous posts which you might have ignored. Instead of the discussion progressing further its back to ground zero.

My original contention below - while these may make for good acts they leave the solution to the Panth's problems unfulfilled. The memorial is great to have, but we should not think that it will bring the Panth great progress or growth. Memorials should be made, but with them should not come the consideration that it will provide betterment or amelioration. Sure, it's awesome that even though the government didn't want you to make, you made it anyway. But what re-occuring value does it give us? It doesn't next to nothing in telling our history and educating those who do not know our struggle. It is no Yad Vasehm (http://www.yadvashem.org/). The Jews have done so much to spread knowledge of their genocide and provide resources to educate the world. It would have been a better use of funds to create a digital library/media platform where our history could be collected, preserved, and displayed for the world to learn from. Building of the memorial does not help very much in disseminating our history, uplifting the victims of our genocide from their struggles, or ultimately getting justice for the Panth. It should be built but we should not feel giddy and jolly over its supposed impact. As for the calendar and parchar of Dasam Bani: The Nanakshahi calendar was removed without any proper consultation, discussion, debate, or agreement in the Panth. Its lunacy to push the change through without taking into account the opinions of the Panth. Thus, all those who have been convinced of the merits of the Nanakshahi calendar have animosity toward Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj for doing it. Even if the Bikrami calendar is the best choice, or maybe a 3rd alternative calendar being better, but to make the decision unilaterally shows that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has no meaningful desire to build connections, bridges and unity in the Panth. If there was disagreement on which calendar to use, then that should have been resolved through a Panthic gathering to discuss, debate, and build consensus. With a Panthic consensus the decision being made would be happily taken by all, without it we have the discord and hate that are extremely obvious. The same goes for Dasam Bani - have a gathering where all the dubious points that detractors make on Dasam Bani can be cleared. Have that discussion and build consensus. That brings people of different thoughts together. People complain about all the hate and lies being spread on Dasam Bani but the response can't be to shout back. Just restarting parchar is not enough to eliminate the problem. The response has to clear doubts and bring people toward consensus. Whether its our calendar, maryada, or history/philosophy, no one can unilaterally decide what it correct and what isn't. The Guru gave us the Guru Granth-Guru Panth system, which is a tradition long dead and not up for re-installment by the political overlords. Until such time that the entire Panth can assemble Sarbat Khalsa, create a plan to debate and discuss these issues, and come to a conclusion and consensus, these issues will only fester and grow worse. Shouting back and forth at each other will not unite the Panth on these issues, no matter how true and correct one side might be in the debate. He was doing it strategically; his strategy was foolhardy. If Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma was truly a visionary, he would see that trying to work within Badal's political setup is futile. You're getting cents on the dollar. Peanuts. Little progression for all your time and effort. The revolutionary change to ideas centuries old is what is needed. Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma knows of our history ten times better than any of us yet fails to see that the only time multiple factions of the Panth were truly largely united was when the Sarbat Khalsa system was in place and operating. Think of the biggest Panthic problems and issues - none can be solved while working under corrupt politicians like Badal and others. Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale and the Sant Samaj have for almost two decades trying to get one Panthic Rehit Maryada implemented to unite all Sikhs but the SGPC leaders and their political overlords have no inclination or urge to do that because it does not serve their interests. Disunity is good for the politicians. All their attempts have been futile. Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale speak on this below: The better strategy is to unite all factions of Panth and put control back in the Panth's hands away from the corrupt politicians. I don't believe any of them are agents. I only believe that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has some character flaws and lack of knowledge/wisdom in certain areas that don't serve him or the Panth in the best possible way.

Blase means to be indifferent or unconcerned. However, you perceive my writing on Dasam Bani being reintroduced to be both nonchalant (why don't we bring in another French word) but also emotional and angry at the same time. That kind of makes for an oxymoron; contradictory terms. When attempting to have any genuine and fruitful discussion I have experienced it is helpful to not speculate or make conjecture about the viewpoints of another. If curious or in doubt, just ask; ask with the innocent interest of a child. Other genuine level-headed people will gladly oblige. Fools like myself may otherwise find injury in your guesswork. Bringing in Samparda Kathavachaks fixes the symptom not the illness. The root problem that will fester and multiply is unaddressed. Is this a strategy for the long term that will bring unity and togetherness in the Panth? No. I have posted an excerpt of my last post on this topic below for your convenience, often my arguments become TL;DR. Again, conjecture and scorn for a person you genuinely want to have dialogue with may not be useful. Some may misinterpret your heartfelt intentions. If I'm not mistaken, it was rescinded after just two years! Here is the difference: When the Sikhs took the jagir from the Mughals, they took it after deliberation, discussion, and the approval of the Sarbat Khalsa Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has built no such discussion and consensus building into his strategy, not even with the Sant Samaj. Heaps of them condemn his political choices. Getting the discourse changed to Gurmat is good. But the underlying problems remain unaddressed; problems that do the most to hold the Panth back as outlined in my above post. The jagir allowed the Sikhs to consolidate different jathas under the leadership of Kapur Singh into the Dal Khalsa. Factions were brought together. They used the political calm to develop their autonomous power and establish their sovereignty This was political power and control that they were able to grow for the Panth. The jagir was taken away very quickly, but look at what they accomplished in that time. The Khalsa was brought together in unity to fight for our future prosperity. I highly doubt the SIkhs who had been hunted down by Zakariya Khan suddenly became enthralled by his friendship. They took the jagir in a collective, panthic decision and likely knew they could be double-crossed. But they mustered their forces and were in a stronger position for when it did happen. In all the major issues of the Panth that I have outlined in my previous posts, Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has made little headway in ameliorating them. No political autonomy is established for the Panth. The Indian government regulated the SGPC, the SGPC in turn is run by Badal and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal). There is no autonomy or control of the Panth in its own affairs, we are led by the string where the political elite wish to go. As I stated previously: Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's strategy gives the Panth no autonomy, no control, and he has not pushed forward the Panth's interests in any worthwhile long-lasting way.

Bring in Sarna or Badal, their ineptitude toward the betterment of the Panth is the same. Getting a memorial or gallery made is not all that valuable in the face of big problems we're facing. Getting the Nanakshahi calendar removed and installing panthic leaning Kathavachaks in Delhi and Amritsar: The Nanakshahi calendar was removed without any proper consultation, discussion, debate, or agreement in the Panth. Its lunacy to push the change through without taking into account the opinions of the Panth. Thus, all those who have been convinced of the merits of the Nanakshahi calendar have animosity toward Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj for doing it. Even if the Bikrami calendar is the best choice, or maybe a 3rd alternative calendar being better, but to make the decision unilaterally shows that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has no meaningful desire to build connections, bridges and unity in the Panth. He follows the same classic Indian strongman move of implementing your full whim and will when you have power while not caring for the affects on others. Getting Panthic kathavachaks back into Delhi and Amritsar is Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's and others' response to the preaching of left-leaning kathavachacks is fine and dandy, but how does it bring unity? If they were shouting, now we're just shouting back. While presenting your own ideas and interpretations in a sound and ration way without enmity is fine, and I encourage it, Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj has failed to address the actual problem and close the gaping opinionated divide. Again, its the strongman move, we have clout in political circles so let's use it to push our agenda without being principled and trying to foster cooperation and consolidation in the Panth.This shows Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's lack of strategic acumen, he is unable to properly diagnose the problem and come up with a strategy to tackle it while bringing Sikhs together. Whether its our calendar, maryada, or history/philosophy, no one can unilaterally decide what it correct and what isn't. The Guru gave us the Guru Granth-Guru Panth system, which is a tradition long dead and not up for re-installment by the political overlords. Until such time that the entire Panth can assemble Sarbat Khalsa, create a plan to debate and discuss these issues, and come to a conclusion and consensus, these issues will only fester and grow worse. Shouting back and forth at each other will not unite the Panth on these issues, no matter how true and correct one side might be in the debate. If Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma was truly a visionary, he would see that trying to work within Badal's political setup is futile. You're getting cents on the dollar. Peanuts. The revolutionary change to ideas centuries old is what is needed. Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma knows of our history ten times better than any of us yet fails to see that the only time multiple factions of the Panth were truly largely united was when the Sarbat Khalsa system was in place and operating. Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale have said in Katha before that these politicians don't have the Panth's betterment in mind. They say one thing, do another thing. He recounted the many times he approached the former President of the SGPC, Gurcharan Singh Tohra, to resolve the maryada issue and have one Panthic maryada implemented. Tohra would always say they'd take it into consideration and will do something to get the discussions started but never did over all those years of Baba Hari Singh asking. Why not? Unity of the Panth does not align with the values and interests of the political class and they have proven that over the past four decades. Again, it shows lack of clarity in thought and critical thinking on Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to not be able to see his plan of action is ultimately folly. I do not blame Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma for causation, I said the following in my original post: "Many of the occurrences and facts I have presented above are not caused or created by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma. However, in being the leader of Dami Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, and having such warm and close relations with the Badal family, the SGPC, and Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), he has achieved very little in rectifying or ameliorating any of those issues in any meaningful way. It is treachery and deception with the Panth for Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to have aligned, supported, and collaborated with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal)" Only 30 seats were allocated to Sant Samaj, out of a grand total of 170! I do not believe there would be any more change than there is now, they would have held 17.64% of the seats of a majority. This was not a coalition where Badal needs the Sant Samaj's votes to pass anything, and as such they hold no leverage over Badal. Do you have any documents or information that gives you a clear picture of what changes Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj were going to bring about and what they're action plan looked like after winning those 30 seats? And did said plan look plausible? The SGPC was put in limbo by the case but has been run by its de-facto leaders since then, the Badals, and all its operation are still ongoing with them at the helm. The Sant Samaj and Badal still have the same supporting relationship, even more so now than in 2011, and thus I believe the political power the Sant Samaj has now is what they would receive even if the new SGPC house had gone into operation. Who do you refer to by "ravan sena"? It would have made people aware of the crimes of the Punjab government, which he orchestrated in part, and aided, abetted, and sheltered from justice the thousands of officers and government officials that were responsible for our genocide. Badal has blood on his hands too, not just CM Beant Singh. You may not be aware, but false encounters in Punjab started under Parkash Badal in the 1970s when he had the Punjab police extra-judicially killing leftist activists and 'comrades'. I can't find a source at the moment but from what I remember, the CBI submitted their report to the Punjab government and the Punjab government under Badal never released the report. But here's something that shows you the counterfeit an insincere concern for the Panthi's issues: -https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.religion.sikhism/UJ96Dtk4neQ While Badal asked for an investigation when he wasn't in power this was what he said when he got in power on Kaunke's case. "Parkash Singh Badal, now the Chief Minister of Punjab, condemned this action. He was briefly detained for his statement. Yet he has fused to refer this terrible incident for investigation by India's Central bureau of Investigation (CBI) on the flimsy pretext that it would demoralize the murderous, out-of-control Punjab police." See excerpt from my original post above. Sant Jarnail Singh started his own morcha. The Akali Dal wanted to align their morcha with his. They mutually did that for the adoption of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution. Sant Jarnail Singh did not support the Shiromani Akali Dal in SGPC election, he supported candidates who stood against them. He did not voice his support for the party or its candidates any election, only collaborated to keep the Panth on one platform for the Dharam Yudh Morcha. He neither trusted, confided, or made himself vulnerable to the Akali politicians. He took his own course and created and arms-length partnership for the morcha. This is a very different political strategy to Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's of throwing full support behind the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal) and cozying up to the political elite. The Sant Samaj was in operation long before the 2011 SGPC elections. The Sant Samaj actually fought the 2004 elections under the Panthic Morcha against SAD (Badal). - http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110810/punjab.htm#10 Those leaders did not leave because they had no desire to involve themselves in politics anymore. That is a fictitious assertion. These leaders had contested the 2004 elections too and stayed united after their loss then. What changed? These leaders left not in 2011 or the following years but in 2016/2017. Why then? That's when the beadbi incidents were happening the the hapless Punjab government and SGPC, both under Badal, did next to nothing constructive to solve the situation and instead used violence against protesters and killed Sikhs. Even after these facts when the many Sant Samaj members were justifiably angry with Badal and wanting to mobilise against him, it was the forever devoted Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma that came out with unwavering support for Badal and his party for the next elections. This was also following the pardon to the Sirsa pakhandi by the Akal Thakht by orders of the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal)'s subsequent support from the Sirsa pakhandi https://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/02/03/93-sant-samaj-leaders-part-ways-baba-harnam-singh-dhumma/ - Read the article, the 93 leaders "have distanced themselved from Baba Harnam Singh's announcement to support the Badals" Its Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's feeble leadership that has fractured the Sant Samaj Those Sikhs who took Nawabis from the Mughals established their autonomous control and helped to grow the Panth and its interests. Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's strategy gives the Panth no autonomy, no control, and he has not pushed forward the Panth's interests in any worthwhile long-lasting way.

My original post may need more clarity in how I present my ideas; I was not trying to put across the point that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma must fit the mold of a leader who solves all the Panth's problems and leads us to a future of prosperity and growth. Those are lofty expectations. I do not believe that's the standard Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma should be held to. I was merely trying to question: are the "accomplishments" of Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma significant or are they miniscule and non-impactful for the Panth's future, especially in comparison to the immense challenges and issues we face. People will argue that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has used his leadership position in Dam Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, as well as, his support of and relationship with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), to make important progress in issues of the Panth. I don't believe he has. I don't believe he has made any significant progress in addressing any of those larger problems of the Panth even whilst having his strong political affiliations. My intention was to point out that: The most dire and severe issues of the Panth have not been addressed in any compelling fashion by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma over the last decade, at a time when he has cultivated powerful connections with Punjab's political overlords. He is not an individual who possesses necessary skills and character traits, such as long-sightedness, integrity, strategic planning/thinking, principles, conviction, etc., to be a useful, productive, valuable, and helpful leader that can earnestly contribute to the Panth's progression.

I read the following passage in another thread. Instead of going off topic on the original thread, I have created this new one. -------------------------------------------------------------- I disagree that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has achieved many things by siding with Parkash Badal and his Dal. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma accomplished in the affairs of the SGPC, Punjab's Government, or Sikh sovereignty since he's headed Dam Dami Taksal Mehta, headed the Sant Samaj, and nurtured such a warm relationship with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal) at large? I see a few things that may be seen as accomplishments by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma The 1984 memorial complex being created The removal of the Nanakshahi calendar Getting approval for Taksal's kathavachaks to do parchar from Manji Sahib A "Martyr's Gallery" at the 1984 memorial (http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/chandigarh/apex-body-accepts-damdami-taksals-demand-4708101/) On a panthic level, can any of the above be termed as any significant achievement or contribution for our nation by a person who heads one of the oldest Sikh schools, an organization of Sants/Vidhvaans, and has relations with influential political leaders? They can not; these are paltry victories in the face of immense issues of our community. The biggest issues of the Panth (including but not limited to): The decline of Sikhi in Punjab Due to things like: Proliferation of drugs, lack of parchaar and spiritual sustenance, government suppression of Sikh movements Lack of justice and healing from 1984 and following genocide Tens of thousands Sikhs killed, tortured, detained, made political prisoners, and continued mass impunity for perpetrators Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions Focussing on the SGPC, has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done much of anything to elicit worthwhile change in all the shortcomings, mismanagement, corruption, and overall foolishness of the SGPC? In the video below Jathedar Ranjit Singh outlines many of the ways the Badal family has usurped the Sikhs' sovereign power and misused the Panth's power and wealth for their own benefit. He also talks about many actions of the SGPC that are blatantly corrupt. The Badals more or less ordered the SGPC to hand over the rights to relaying Gurbani from Harmandir Sahib from ETC Punjabi to PTC Punjabi at no charge. While the SGPC was to receive payment from ETC for the deal, the SGPC has received no compensation from the Badal family for the over 1100 Crore Rupees that PTC Punjabi owes as of 2013! Time and time again Baldev Singh Sirsa and Jathedar Ranjit Singh expose scams executed by SGPC officials to enrich themselves at the expense of the Sikh nation's funding. Property Scam - https://www.sikh24.com/2017/05/12/baldev-singh-sirsa-exposes-property-scam-in-sgpc-during-avtar-makkars-tenure/#.WYzaf_krKHs Property Scam - http://indianexpress.com/article/india/sgpc-chief-to-probe-land-deal-during-avtar-singh-makkars-tenure4789971/ Recruitment Scam - http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/recruitment-scam-in-sgpcrun-guru-granth-sahib-world-un Badal seeking favours from Gurdwara Judicial Panel - http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020522/main6.htm You will notice the SGPC always constituting its own "committees" of its own men to investigate. Does anyone think that will ever lead to a credible investigation where the truth and justice is of utmost importance? Nope. When a judicial panel tells the SGPC to have a private firm do an audit, the SGPC just ignores it. Complete disregard. - http://sikhsangat.org/2009/sikh-gurdwara-judicial-panel-slaps-contempt-notice-on-sgpc/ From the 7:00 mark Jathedar Ranjit Singh goes through the misdeeds of the Badal family and the SGPC. In relation to "2. Lack of Justice and Healing from 1984 and following genocide, What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done with his influence on the Badal family and SGPC in that area? Thousands of Punjab police officers involved in our genocide have roamed with impunity. Badal Dal, while promising over many elections, particularly in the 1990s to punish all the guilty has done the complete opposite. They have sheltered, protected, rewarded, and saluted those same officers, and not just the big boys like Sumedh Saini, Izhar Alam, etc.. Did Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma do anything to use his political influence on the Badals to have impartial investigations, charges, and eventual punish meted down for the guilty? Some may know that the Shiromani Akali Dal used to have a "Shiromani Akali Dal Human Right Wing"; Jaswant Singh Khalra was the General Secretary of it. Why do you think that wing has gone into oblivion? Khalra and others working in that wing investigated and uncovered the crimes of the government. The Badals don't want such crimes to see the light of day and have as such instituted policy not to support human right endeavours in the political party of the Sikhs or the SGPC. Has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done anything to get the SGPC or Akali Dal to mobilise their resources toward hiring investigators, former police officers, former judges, or lawyers to research, investigate, and expose to the world, and begin legal proceedings for all those crimes that were committed against the Sikhs? Jathedar Gurdev Singh Kaunke was tortured and murdered by Jagraon Police. A report was conducted by the Punjab government but was never released. Badal promised to release it if it came into power. He never did. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done to get that report released? Especially since this particul victim was of such high regard from Dam Dami Taksal. In relation to "3. Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions" The Akal Thakht and SGPC has been controlled by the political overlords, whether it was Tohra or Talwandi exerting their influence, or the Badals in the modern day. The "leaders" of our nation in the form of Thakht Jathedars are chosen by the Badals to be "yes men", support the status-quo, and be wielded for political gain. The SGPC president is chosen in this exact way too. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done to change these political interferences and institute a system by with the nation chooses its leaders? What actions has he taken to ensure leadership at these levels works for the betterment of the community instead of the political betterment of the Badal family? While everyone makes much fuss over the Indian government destroying and stealing our priceless historical artifacts in 1984, the destruction that the SGPC has either directly or indirectly caused to our heritage is spectacular. Dozens if not hundreds of buildings razed or allowed to crumble. The possessions and artifacts of our Guru's and prominent Sikhs decay and turn to dust; this is living history going to waste forever to be inaccessible to our future generations. The SGPC has been aware of all this but this is not a priority for them. I'm sure Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma knows of this too. What has he done to mobilise SGPC resources towards the preservation of our history? I find it ironic that such a learned individual will do katha of and teach katha of Suraj Parkash or Panth Parkash, but that actual history he narrates he doesn't seem to be too bothered about protecting. Uncovered during the Badal's construction of the horrendous plaza outside Harmandir Sahib - https://www.sikh24.com/2013/12/02/sgpc-set-to-destroy-more-sikh-heritage/#.WYzdNvkrKHs Mansion of Mangal Singh Ramgarhia near Harmandir Sahib demolished. SGPC knew and did nothing. http://news.ukpha.org/2013/09/mansion-of-sikh-general-mangal-singh-ramgharia-razed-to-the-ground/ Relics of the Guru's decaying - http://news.ukpha.org/2013/02/priceless-possessions-left-to-decay-in-neglected-forts-among-them-relics-of-guru-gobind-singh/ Relics of Guru Arjan Dev Ji decaying going to waste - http://news.ukpha.org/2013/02/as-bilgas-treasure-decays-villagers-seek-outside-help/ Finally, while he has been President of the Sant Samaj for a great length of time, the other Vidhvaans of the organization have become disillusioned with his leadership or lack-there-of. Mahapurakhs like Baba Lakhbir Singh Ratwara Sahib, Baba Hari Singh Randhawe wale, Baba Amir Singh Jawaddi Taksal wale, Baba Seva Singh Rampur Khere wale all have left or distanced themselves from the Sant Samaj due to its wayward leadership and direction. - https://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/02/03/93-sant-samaj-leaders-part-ways-baba-harnam-singh-dhumma/ Many of the occurrences and facts I have presented above are not caused or created by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma. However, in being the leader of Dami Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, and having such warm and close relations with the Badal family, the SGPC, and Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), he has achieved very little in rectifying or ameliorating any of those issues in any meaningful way. It is treachery and deception with the Panth for Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to have aligned, supported, and collaborated with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal); and to think, I haven't even mentioned Badal's and the Shiromani Akali Dal's collusion and cooperation in the June 1984 attack and subsequent smothering of the resistance movement. Have other leaders in the Panth also joined and supported the Badal family? Yes. But, no dharmic leader has been closer or supported the Badals with more zeal than Baba Harnam Singh Dumma. What triumph has he produced from that support? Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma may well have done a lot of things over his lifetime, however, the high position and influence he has been given have gone to waste. He does not seem to to have the wit, vision, strategic acumen, or transparency that Sikhs require from a person in such a position. -------------------------------------------------------------- If there are any mistakes or criticisms of the above analysis please voice them!

One point repeatedly being made by Dhumma to justify the attack is that Dhadrianwale's verbal attack on Dhumma was a direct attack on Dam Dami Taksal. Dhumma asserts that anything said about the leader of an institution is to be taken as it being said about the institution itself. He questions how you can separate the two. This is a very flawed assertion by Dhumma. It is entirely acceptable for a leader or individual to be criticized without an institution that criticism being linked to the institution or organization they represent. This is a poor method for Dhumma to justify the attack. Using Dhumma's logic we would be smearing and disgracing the Akal Takht when we criticize Gurbachan Singh and the other Takht Jathedars for pardoning Ram Rahim and taking orders/directives from the SGPC and Badal government. Another example, Jathedar of the Akal Takht, Aroor Singh, had honoured General Dyer the person responsible for the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in Amritsar. Is what Aroor Singh did not something Sikhs should oppose? Should Aroor Singh not be condemned and criticized for his shameful behaviour? More on Aroor Singh: Not anyone would disagree with condemning Aroor Singh but by Dhumma's argument, we would be denouncing the Akal Takht at the same time. Having had so much Gurmat instruction you would think a person like Dhumma would think his arguments over to determine their sensibility. I guess not.

Another great analysis by Dr. Amarjit Singh from TV84:

Singh559, I like Ajmer Singh's analysis of how Dhumma handled himself in comparison to the Sikh way of dialogue and too don't agree with his opinions on the rift being created on Sri Dasam Granth. I have always enjoyed his rational arguments and ability to look at the bigger picture for specific situations.

A good analysis by Ajmer Singh on the recent attack:

Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma condemns the attack on Baba Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale in the first statement he makes on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Foow6GCyow Dhumma says: These actions need to be condemned in harsh words. Everyone should speak out against it. Sikh Jathebandis should get together to answer back on these things and need to mobilize themselves to stop such ploys. Then in the following statement, Dhumma's words take a change in direction: Check the Facebook page of the news channel for a better version: https://www.facebook.com/abpsanjha/ Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma claims Baba Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale have been making accusations for over 4 years and has made derogatory comments on Dam Dami Taksal's dastar and reputation. The derogatory comments are claimed to be of the very low and despicable character. I have yet to see evidence of the above claim. Dhumma believes Dhadrianwale should have looked at his own dastaar and realised it has the same honour and respect as someone else's. This is a comical suggestion as Dhumma himself criticized Dhadrianwale for his choice of dastaar style, a useless critique. Dhumma claims in 4 years he never made any derogatory comment against Dhadrianwale. This is proven false by Dhumma's critique a few weeks ago of Dhadrianwale and his dress, deferring to this chola as ghagri and making comments about his dastaar styleDhumma makes a point of Sikhs only supposed to be wearing 4 colours of dastaars. A fair point, but hardly something that warranted negative utterance toward another parcharik. Calling Dhadrianwale up and raising this concern and doing benti to stick to the four colours would have been the better move. Dhumma says that the Singhs that attacked Dhadrianwale wished to get him to stop his derogatory comments about Dam Dami Taksal. They did what they did for the the honour and respect of Dam Dami Taksal. A lot of people's feelings are connected with Dam Dami Taksal and that some can handle someone's attacks while others cannot. I have seen no evidence of Dhadrianwale making any defaming comments about the Dam Dami Taksal While it is a fair statement to say that people's feelings can get hurt and they take matter into their own hands, Dhumma comes across condoning the attack when he should be condemning it. Dhumma originally condemned the murder, but since the perpetrator are the student's and friends of his institution, the attack is now being condoned and justified. Hurt feelings over the alleged bad-mouthing of your institution's leader is not sufficient justification for attacking and attempting to murder someone Dhumma should be vehemently criticizing and denouncing what occured but instead has shifted to defending and tolerating the attack Was the killing of Bhai Bhupinder Singh, who made no utterances toward anybody, not wrong? Should his killing not be condemned? The vehicles being destroyed, while a minor misdeed in comparison to the life lost, is the loss of property funded by the Guru's sangat. Is that not worth expressing regret over? A chabeel was made part of the ruse to trick the targets into the trap. An age old tradition of seva was utilized by the perpetrators to commit murder. People will look toward chabeels with suspicion, the government has outlawed them without prior permission, and beadbi of the tradition has occured. Is that not worth condemnation from Dhumma? Dhumma says he will be supporting and helping those charged with these crimes. While raising concerns about potential police torture and brutality is legitimate, unequivocally supporting those who committed such disgusting acts is lunacy. The following is a news article following Dhumma's press conference on May 23rd, 2016: The article states: Dhumma admits the perpetrators and vehicles used are from Dam Dami Taksal Dhumma states he has no knowledge about the Chabeel being used as a tool in this attack (how is it possible to attempt to even feign ignorance about this). HERE'S A BOMBSHELL: The press note being used during the press conference (which Dhumma read from) was prepared by the media advisor of Punjab cabinet minister Bikram Singh Majithia and Dhumma read it word for word When the journalists had one on one interviews afterwards (as in the ABP Sanjha video above) what Dhumma read and what he said in those interviews went in opposite directions Questions that need answering: Why are the media advisors of Badal's cabinet ministers helping Dhumma with his press statements? Why is Dhumma putting up a farce in his statements? He is blatantly being deceitful and disingenuous by stating one thing through a press note (probably things he doesn't actually believe) and then airing his real thoughts and feelings in the interviews. Why the two-face bigotry? Overall, Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has proven that he severely lacks skills in leadership, strategic thinking, conflict/crisis resolution, honesty, and accountability. Operating as the head of Dam Dami Taksal's Mehta faction, his weakness and ineptitude in being a competent leader does a disservice to the entire Dam Dami Taksal. This incident and the subsequent severe mishandling of the response by Dhumma has eroded the reputation and respect for Dam Dami Taksal in the eyes of Sikhs world wide. Those close to Dam Dami Taksal have to deliberate with themselves and ask, is Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's handling of the situation helping the taksal? Will it help them engage and connect with the hearts of Sikhs? Will it help them prosper and flourish going into the future? If the answer is no, we may have someone in a job way above his skill set. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I did this quick analysis just pouring over the information on the internet. If you find any mistakes, any additional relevant information, or have any analysis of your own to air, I would welcome your feedback and will make any corrections necessary.

What objective proof do you have that "Nanaksar make that photo of the Baba as the representation of God" ? Do all those Singhs at Nanaksar consider such photos as the avatar of God? What proof do you have of the mental thoughts and feelings those Singhs have toward those pictures? Did they verbally tell you they consider those pictures to be the avatar of God? Did you read their minds? At Barsis of various panthic personalities, the pictures of said personalities are brought in the diwan to remind sangat of the physical form of the person they are remembering. Worship is defined as: "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity". Reverence and adoration can be defined as "a deep respect or love". Deity is defined as "a god or goddess". Do Singhs have a feeling of deep respect for Baba Nand Singh Ji? Almost certainly. Do Singhs consider Baba Nand Singh Ji's picture a representation of "a god"? Highly unlikely. Please provide proof that exhibits Singhs' internal feelings and sentiments that show they consider the picture of Baba Nand Singh Ji to be a representation of God. Unless you've interviewed them, I think you'll be hard-pressed to manifest any such proof.

The need for Khalistan has been poorly articulated by everyone besides Dr. Amarjit Singh of Washington D.C. The case for Khalistan needs to be made by discussing all fronts of how that nation would be different from the current situation in Punjab. An answer on how Khalistan would improve things for Punjabis, in relation to human rights and freedoms, socially, economically, and overall quality of life needs to be clearly given and be openly available. Sikhs do need to raise literacy levels and education within themselves and have a more interconnected community globally. But besides fostering a culture of higher education and pursuit of knowledge, I don't believe there is anything greater Sikhs as a larger community could do. Yes, the people of Punjab are suffering due to changes in the economy and the sub-par effort to adapt effectively with necessary legislative amendments and new policies (current policies and regulations do not entice foreign investment in Punjab). But the responsibility to improve economic conditions in Punjab, to increase foreign direct investment, and to provide the general populace with well paying jobs that grow the economy toward a information based economy is with the Punjab and Indian governments. It doesn't help when your Minister for Education has only passed the 10th grade (Sikander Singh Maluka - http://myneta.info/pb2012/candidate.php?candidate_id=446). Not to mention half of the Punjab cabinet has no post secondary education. The failure of Punjab to adequately adapt to social trends, rapid urbanization, and globalization are failures of the Government. Literacy rates are not high enough and access to credible and relevant information on these precise topics is very poor. It cannot be expected that people can learn how to adjust to a changing world on their own. The sole job of the SGPC is to defend and bolster Sikhi. This encompasses propagation of the Sikh way of life, the protection of Sikh history and its related historical Gurdwaras and artifacts, and providing life's basic necessities (food, shelter, clothes) to humanity. To mold the Sikh populace into productive and nurturing members of Society is under its mandate, however, I fail to see what role the SGPC would have in moving Sikhs toward being any of the occupations you listed. Sikhs in their basic form are saints and soldiers. Why would we want to remove the Sadhu aspect from Sikhi? It should be a part of us but of course not be our sole trait. I highly doubt the assertion that Sikh organizations led by "Babas" are teaching that Sikhs should solely focus on a Sadhu lifestyle. Baba Jagjit Singh of the Harkhowal samparda have many times given guidance to, in addition to living the Sikh lifestyle, have scholastic pursuits and go into honorable professions. There are actually a lot of rituals and prayers that devout Jews preform on a daily basis, and they are not so liberal in their linkage with society as you might think. Many are recluses and focus much of their time on their religion, family, and work. Its hard to contrast Jews being opposite to your view of what Sikhs are apparently doing. In year 70, after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, the control of elite Jewish priests, in whom control of religious ceremonies vested, was relinquished. Jews became more widespread after the Roman conquest. Since Jewish life revolved around the Torah, it required all Jewish men to read and study the Torah themselves and no longer reliant on Rabbis. Their children would begin their instruction to do the same from a very young age. Education was compulsory for people of the Jewish faith and this was revolutionary compared to other societies that existed through the first millennium and a half. It gave them an intellectual edge on all other communities as a whole. However, Jews who's livelihoods relied on resource industries, like farming, had a hard choice to make. Do they send their children to learn Hebrew, which is religiously mandated but brings them no economic benefit, or do they become less devout or even convert religions? The bleeding population was one reason Judaism did not flourish in the world as other faiths did. Within devout Jews, education was a basic building block for their families and the community. Because of their early connection to education, Jews were, in large part, ahead of their peers. The culture of educational pursuit and excellence was cultivated through religious necessity and became ingrained in Jews themselves. They all push their children on an individual level to pursue their academic interests and morph into professionals. There is a great parallel with Sikhi. From 1716 to the establishment of the Sikh Misls, Sikhs were displaced with very few substantial and permanent habitations. It required every Sikh to be self-reliant and learn Gurmukhi and keep alive the Sikh way of life. Education was likely more precious during those times. As Sikhs have endured through a century of relative peace, a culture of complacency has festered and Sikhs no longer feel there is a need for that basic understanding of our language, which is the gateway to Sikhi. Most Sikhs living in rural areas in the past 150 years likely saw no economic benefit from education, similar to the thinking of some Jews. If any culture of learning Gurmukhi as a necessity to our way of life existed, it was wiped out by generations of ill opinion toward education. Very few Sikhs send their children to Gurdwaras to learn Gurmukhi, Sikh history, and music, so kids aren't getting an influx of knowledge at a young age like Jewish children have been. Had Sikhs had the long and winding ordeal the Jews had and developed that deep rooted culture of academia over two millenniums, we might also be staunch champions of education too. For the present, we are not. What are your ideas on how to change that? What role to Sikh groups have to play in that? What real world steps and ideas can be implemented to get the change we need? Many would argue institutions like Dam Dami Taksal, Mastuana, Nihang Dals, Harkhowal, and Jawaddi Taksal have been promoting and providing costless learning of languages, history, music, the Sikh way of life, and to some degree for some, the quest for technical and academic knowledge for a long time. Suits may be fancier than Salwars (oh the irony). In all seriousness though, I agree with reaching out to those who aren't living the Sikh way of life and giving them the Guru's message in a medium and channel that is most productive for them. I think Manjit Singh's statements about Sikhi sound great and are good ideas, but they seem to be wide blanketing statements that are far from being a clear direction to a better future. The problems that Sikhs face in India and around the world are well known; having a vision for a better future is a good place to start. Nonetheless, until concrete steps and plans to actually tackle the problem are put into practice, its all just talk, which Punjabis are more than accustomed to hearing. On a side note, most of the immense problems that Sikhs/Punjabis in the west have with Indian and Punjab governments almost entirely have to do with unfair treatment before the law, human rights, and freedoms of the people. They include but are not exclusive to: In no particular order. 1. Being categorized as Hindus in Article 25 of the constitution 2. The leaving out of Punjabi areas from Punjab 3. Punjab river waters being controlled and diverted in violation of international riparian law 4. State sponsored murder of tens of thousands of Sikhs/Punjabis, widespread use of torture, and extra-judicial killings of peoples without fair/due process taking place. 5. State sponsored killings, assaults, rapes, arson, and looting that took place in the Sikh genocide of November 1984. 6. The mass impunity of all those involved in the events listed in 4 & 5 from political leaders, political party workers, para-military & police personnel, and Indian citizens . 8. The needless attack on Harimandar Sahib in June 1984 that killed thousands and saw hundreds of Sikh artifacts destroyed or looted. 7. The rejection by the state to the freedom of speech, freedom of public protest, and freedom of political thought. Promises to address and tackle said problems have been given by all political parties, most of all the Badal Dal. People are well accustomed to political double talk; its hard for many to believe Manjit Singh GK is genuine in his statements knowing he represents the interests of the Badal Dal (A view on GK's statements on Sant Bhindrawale and comparison of Iran to Khalistan - ). That's my take at least, sorry for being all over the place.