besoft

Thanks once again for a nice reply and I am grateful for sharing.I get your view point that we are blessed with some element of free will so as to achieve the objective of life that is to seek HIm and ,if possible, merge with HIM. 2. The question that comes to the mind of a novice is as to what is 'dhur'. Is it from the beginning as is understood by a common Punjabi understanding man or 'dhur' will stand for the beginning of a particular joonie/form/specie. At places one feels as if dhur is being addressed to as the beginning of life.Is the meaning has universal applicability so far as bani is concerned or it has always to be looked into the context.? 3. As per that we have discussed so far there seems to be a great similarity in sikhism and Hinduism .There are differences, Of course, as in Sikhism man can do Naam jap and burn away the karmas. Kindly comment if there is some other visible difference. ਧੁਰਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲੇਖ ਲਿਖੇ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ By virtue of the pre-ordained destiny on my brow, I have obtained the Lord. [Note: I am giving two lines here ,one above this and one below this ,for interpretation] ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਲਿਖਤੁ ਲਿਲਾਰਾ ॥ They alone meditate on God in their mind, on whose forehead such beginning. WJKK WJKF

ਰਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਤਬ ਮਥੀਐ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪਾਵਹੁ ॥੨॥ [If you chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord,with your tongue, then the curd will be churned. In this way, the Ambrosial Nectar is obtained. ||2|| [ang728] ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਬਧਾ ਛੁਟਹਿ ਜਿਤੁ ॥੬॥੧॥੩॥ O Nanak, contemplate the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and you shall be released from bondage. ||6||1||3|| ਤੇਰਾ ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੰਜੀਠੜਾ ਰਤਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਚੋਲਾ ਸਦ ਰੰਗ ਢੋਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Your Name alone is the color, in which the robe of my body is dyed. This color is permanent, O my Beloved. ||1||Pause|| ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Soohee, First Mehl: ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਭਾਉ ਤਿਨਾ ਸਵਾਰਸੀ ॥ Those whose minds are filled with love of the Lord, are blessed and exalted. ਸੂਖੀ ਕਰੈ ਪਸਾਉ ਦੂਖ ਵਿਸਾਰਸੀ ॥ They are blessed with peace, and their pains are forgotten. ਸਹਸਾ ਮੂਲੇ ਨਾਹਿ ਸਰਪਰ ਤਾਰਸੀ ॥੧॥ He will undoubtedly, certainly save them. ||1|| ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਗੁਰੁ ਆਇ ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਲੀਖਿਆ ॥ The Guru comes to meet those whose destiny is so pre-ordained. ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ਦੇਵੈ ਦੀਖਿਆ ॥ He blesses them with the Teachings of the Ambrosial Name of the Lord. ਚਾਲਹਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਾਇ ਭਵਹਿ ਨ ਭੀਖਿਆ ॥੨॥ Those who walk in the Will of the True Guru, never wander begging. ||2|| ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮਹਲੁ ਹਜੂਰਿ ਦੂਜੇ ਨਿਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ॥ And one who lives in the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, why should he bow down to any other? ਦਰਿ ਦਰਵਾਣੀ ਨਾਹਿ ਮੂਲੇ ਪੁਛ ਤਿਸੁ ॥ The gate-keeper at the Lord's Gate shall not stop him to ask any questions. ਛੁਟੈ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਬੋਲਿ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨਦਰਿ ਜਿਸੁ ॥੩॥ And one who is blessed with the Lord's Glance of Grace - by his words, others are emancipated as well. ||3|| ਘਲੇ ਆਣੇ ਆਪਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਦੂਜਾ ਮਤੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ The Lord Himself sends out, and recalls the mortal beings; no one else gives Him advice. ਢਾਹਿ ਉਸਾਰੇ ਸਾਜਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਭ ਸੋਇ ॥ He Himself demolishes, constructs and creates; He knows everything. 1 ਨਾਨਕ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਨਦਰੀ ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੩॥੫॥ O Nanak, the Naam, the Name of the Lord is the blessing, given to those who receive His Mercy, and His Grace. ||4||3||5|| P.s Could someone kindly advise as to how to proceed from sabad-No-1 from Granth sahib. Is there any site where the numbering of sabads is given.?Kindly guide.

ਬੈਰਾੜੀ ॥ Bairaaree, Fourth Mehl: ਜਪਿ ॥ Meditate, O mind, on the immaculate, formless Lord. ਸਦਾ ॥ Forever and ever, meditate on the Lord, the Giver of peace; He has no end or limitation. ||1||Pause|| ਅਗਨਿ ॥ In the fiery pit of the womb, when you were hanging upside-down, the Lord absorbed You in His Love, and preserved You. ਸੋ ॥੧॥ So serve such a Lord, O my mind; the Lord shall deliver you in the end. ||1|| ਜਾ ॥ Bow down in reverence to that humble being, within whose heart the Lord, Har, Har, abides. <a class="dict" href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF" onmouseover="ddrivetip('iHar /i Diamond', 250)" ;="" onmouseout="hideddrivetip()"> By the Lord's Kind Mercy, O Nanak, one obtains the Lord's meditation, and the support of the Naam. ||2||5||[ang 720]

With my tongue, I chant the Lord's Name; with my ears, I listen to the Ambrosial Word of His Shabad. Nanak is forever a sacrifice to those who meditate on the Supreme Lord God. ||1|| <a name="l30597"> All concerns are false, except those of the One Lord. O Nanak, blessed are those, who are in love with their True Lord. ||2|| [ang 709] I had posted the following in some other thread on 'Nam simran ..what is wrong'. Quote Utter the Naam and listen with your ears. It is one of the way that was advocated by Gyani Maskeen ji. I could get hold of similar lines and 'tuks' that I am sharing with you. well said veer ji. I remember one katha where maskeen ji said when someone goes int sant avastha, naam simran happens automatically with every breath, they dont even have to make a conscious effort to do so. Such people must be truly blessed!! ___________________________________________________ I also do remember pravacahan of Maskeen ji . He emphasised on 'Jo ko Khavay..........bhunchay[forgive me for not quoting the exact 'tuk'] He stated that one should utter 'waheguru' with the tongue and listen with the ears. that is why ,he said, that it is stated that.: 'Akahan aukha prabh ka nau" [again forgive ,if i am incorrect in 'tuk.] As a side note I do follow this i.e .uttering and trying to listen what has been uttered. I have no knowledge if there is any specific prescription as to how to carry out 'Simran'. But i do like this method as has been advised by Maskeen ji.] Unquote wjkk Wjkf

Kindly support with the help of bani only. That would be very helpful to us. Kindly quote from some reliable and authentic source instead of hearsay.Please refer 1 and 2 marked in the post. 3.Also kindly confirm if the karmas of animals are also considered while authoring pre-ordained destiny for them. 4. You have also to answer the question raised in the above post.Kindly look into it and pl. help. It is a humble request only.

Dear friend, While undertaking the understanding of bani I have made small notes for self-help.These are divided into the following sub-heads. Some of these may not indicate anything as the sub-heads/headings have been subjective.Kindly ignore the numbering etc. I have noted down some tuk's from the Granth sahib ji. It has helped me a lot. I do not know how to share these. But I suggest that for a beginner/novice like me it should be very helpful.Pl. let me know as to how to share as these may not be of much interest to the other members of the forum who are well versed with bani. Warm Regards and Wjkk WjkF == 0 He is everywhere 01. He is within 01.1 Kalyug 001 No one comes and goes 01a Duality 01b Darshan 01b.1 Life is Drama 01b.2 Deception 02 In the human body 02a Hatred 02a.1 Escape 03 Saint and God : No difference 03a Saint 03a.1 Sikh and guru 03b Sanyasi 03aa God has many Names 03aa1 naam is a treasure 03aa1.a Naam is the only friend 03aa1.1 Meditation On God brings Naam 03aa1.2 Chanting 03aa1.3 Guru's word is Nectar 03aa1.3ab Naam is above evrything 03aa1.3aa Jap tap Sanjam is naam 03aa1.3a Naam is given by God 03aa1.4 Guru Teaching 3aa1.5 Chanting 03aa1.5 What is contemplation of Naam 03aa1.6 Do not leave naam 03aa1.7 He established His naam 03ab Guru Mantra is Naam 03abc.1Naam goes with us 03abc Mool mantra 03 a Only Naam goes with us 03a1.1 Naam is to be understood 03a1.2 None holes purified 03a1.3 We are HIm 03a1 Naam Location 03a2 What is name of lord 03a3 Naam is difficult to pronounce 03a4 Naam is hidden 03a5 How naam obtained 03a6 Namm given 03a6.1 What is naam 03a6.2 Naam is medicine 03a6.3 Naam makes us god 03a6.4 How naam dwells up 03a6.5 Naam brings wisdom 03a6.5.1 Essence of intelligence 03a6.6 spiritual wisdom 03a6.6 .1Virtues 03a6.7 Honest earnings 03a6.8 Sastra and Vedas proclaim to lead life to attain Him 03a6.9 Nine doors 03a7 Yog 03a8 Yoga 03b Meditate 03b.1 Good karmas brings naam 03b1.2 Karma cannot be erased 03b1.3 Karma 03bb How to beathe 03b1 Self descipline 03b.1 Focus on God 03b2 Amritvella 03c Delusion 03D delusion 03E Poise and grace 03F Merits and demerits 03F1 Death 03G Preordained 03h Illusion 1230/31 04 Naam Daan 05 Gyani 05.1 Definition of Lord 05.2 Ram 06 Hurt other 07 Doubts 07.1 How doubts depart 08 Pride 09 Future 001 Envy-anxiety 002 Looking equal 003 God of Gods 004 Maya 005 Companion 006 Dead when alive 007 GuruMantra 008 Faith In God 009 Kindness 0001 Turia 0002 Wah Wah 0003 Will 1239 0004 Nirvaan 0005 Cleverness 0006 Char padarath 0007 Lowest of low 0008 Double edge sword 0009Ego 0009.1 Sohang 00001 Fruitful Moments 00002 Conquering Soul 00002.1 One soul 00003 Brahmin 00004 Un attached 00005 Demons 00006 Mind satisfied 00006.01 Mind is without Shape 00006.1 Without mind control Maya does not die 00006.2 Mind of five elements 00006.3 Mind is pilgrimmage 00007 Guru sabad 00008 God is Boat 00009 Yogi a Ardas A1 Cause of coming and going B His grace C Be satisfied D Devotee E Naam and status F Servant of lord G Soul G1 Supreme Soul G2 Soul among soul H Surrender I Fear of death J Be happy K Sahaj L Sins L1 sins erased M Service to Lord N Fearless O Bani Oaxx1.1 Bani In the morning Oaxx1 Gurbani leads to liberation Oax1 Bani is Nectar Oa God helps thru Bani O1a Bani and word of shabad O1aa How to reralize Shabad Oa Bani leads to god O1Bani leads to word O2 bani removes egotism O3 bani is sound current O4 Shabad is God's word O3 Shabad of lord P Mine and yours Q Chaar Padarath R Filth S None is liar T Kaliyug U He is only support V Creation W Comfort and riches X poverty Y One word Z bani is akath katha 1.Good qualities 1a Truthfulness and Honesty 1a1 Karma 1b Modesty and humility 1.2 Contentment and forgiveness 1.2.1 patience 1.3 Good deeds 1.3.a He is the doer 1.3.1 Without Good deeds wisdom runs away 1.3.1a Be a good student 1.4.1Jap,tap sanjam. 1.4.2 Pain and pleasures -equipoise 1.4.2.1 Whatever has to happen shall happen 1.4.1.1 Merits and demerits: Same 1.4.3 His will 1.4.4.Selfishness 1.4.5 Slandering 1.4.6 Hopes and Desires 1.4.7. Greed 1.4.8. Fear of God 1.4.8.1 Fear of god leads to wisdom 1.4.8.2 Fear of god thru HIS grace 1.4.9 Telling Lies 1.4.10 Truth 1.4.11 Love of Lord 1.4.11.1The Love of the Lord is my silent chanting. 1.4.12 Five passion 1.4.12.1 Sexual pleasure 1.4.13 Human Body 1.4.13.1 Body is the field of Karma 1.4.14 contemplation 2.Mind Brotherhood-Conquer your mind 2.a.1 Shiva and shakti 2.1 Objective of Life 2.1.1 Churning On God 2.2 Supreme status 2.3Guru's Instruiction Restrains the mind 2.4 How we originate 3. Wisdom E1 Essence of wisdom and Food F1 Truest wisdom F2 One who finds lord Keeps quiet intuitive understanding Understanding is realisation 4. Humility 5 Good speech 6. Naam simran 6.6. Love of Lord is devotional worship 6.6a True worship 6.6.1 Devotion is Nectar 6.6.2 What is devotional worship' 6.7 Purpose of Life 6.8 Always remember Him 6.9 Biggest charity 6.10 Sangat 6.10.a Sangat is the Boat 6.10.1 Greatest Blessing 7. Faith 7.2 Faith with Guru only 8.Kaam Krodh 8.1 Renounce Kam Krodh 9.Selfless service 10 Detatchment 11.Anger 11.1 Egotism and attatchment 11.2 emotional attachment, egotism, wiskedness 11.2.1 Attachment to pleasure 11.3 egotism is false 11.4 Egotism is false 11.5 Burn desires and egotism 11.6 Pride 12. Guru 12a Guru has the key 12b. Thru Guru Lord dwells in mind 12.1 Guru Is Lord 12.2.4 Guru and Lord 12.2.4a Guru nanak 12.2.5. Without Guru there is darkness 12.2.6 Arguments 12.2.7 detachment 12.2.8 Guru's teaching leads to Lord 12.2.8.1 Guru is intermediary 12.2.9 Sound current

Karma-analysis 1.First Karma I am thankful for your crisp and a clear reply. I do agree with you to the extent the following line conveys. I am sorry that I have not carried out 'sabad –wise' analysis ,however, if need be the same can be done under your guidance. ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਤਤੁ ਨਾਮ ਅਰਾਧੂ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਚਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ However, in bani we come across some 'tuk's that would clearly mean that one does not have any free will to alter the karmas as God is the architect of our destiny and is the causes of all the karmas. I am quoting few 'tuk's that should reinforce the concept. ਕਰਮ ਸੁਕਰਮ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪੇ ਇਸੁ ਜੰਤੈ ਵਸਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ [God Himself is the Cause of causes, good and bad-no one has control over these things.] ਆਪੇ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਏ ਥਾਪੇ ॥ [He Himself acts, and causes others to act. He Himself establishes.] 2.Free will and Karmas from 'Dhur' The second important aspect is that we have some karma from 'dhur' i.e from the beginning i.e. when the God began this play and He ,in his wisdom, prescribed some initial karmas on the mortal and the same karmas continue with us in the form of actions and reactions. This also stands to logic as without the first Karma there cannot be the subsequent Karmas. From where did this First Karma come into being when we got separated from the Lord in the form of elements containing some divinity of Him i.e pure consciousness. How can one perform the second and subsequent karmas when the first karma was absent so far as the human beings are concerned? The first karma should be the one that was given to us as per our destiny. This line, itself, shows that we had some pre-ordained destiny since beginning and we have been going on the cycle of incarnations on account of this karama that has been pre-ordained from 'Dhur' This line brings for the another proposition that human beings have little free will. ਮਿਲੁ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਅੜੇ ਧੁਰਿ ਕਰਮਾ [173-4] By one's karma and pre-ordained destiny, they are met. ਪੂਰਬਿ ਕਰਮਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥[199-19] Perfect karma is the mortal's pre-ordained destiny. [the translation of the above 'tuk' is slightly off as the translator has not interpreted 'dhur' correctly.Further 'Purab' has also not been correctly translated.[Purab=ਪਹਿਲੀ ਭਾਵ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਤੋਂ, ਧੁਰੋਂ, ਮੁੱਢ ਤੋਂ] Two questions that strike at the moment are: Do we have any free will? From where did this First karma come from.? I tend to believe that the cycle of incarnations are also pre-ordained for us and even nam jap is also pre-ordained from 'dhur'. Let us continue. ਅਖਰ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ [ang261] [From the Word, come religious rituals, karma, sacredness and Dharma.] Thus from the 'word' came karma that I shall tend to translate as the 'First karma' [for the time being]. Again we get an allusion to 'dhur' in the following 'tuk' as well. ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰਿ ਕਰਮਿ [ang 274] O Nanak, he alone obtains it, whose karma is so pre-ordained. ||5| [The translation goes off here as well as 'dhur' has not been correctly translated here] In the end I shall close with the following line that is elf explanatory i.e the Mortal is just a helpless creature and is living at HIS grace and He shall bless us all as and when our 'First Karma' shall get translated into Good Karmas with HIS Nadar and blessings and we do not have any free will at all. ਧੁਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਜਿਨਾ ਕਉ ਤੁਧੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਤਿਨੀ ਖਸਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥ [Only those whose karma You have pre-ordained from the very beginning, O Lord, meditate on You.] Yes, I do agree with you that we remain in cycle of incarnations till HE so desires. The question that give rises to is ' do we have 'free-will'. Even earning good deeds are also pre-ordained and we, of our own, are not capable of doing anything at all. Everything boils down to HIS 'mehr'. jyhy krm krwey krqw dUjI kwr n Bwly ] (581-9, vfhMsu, mÚ 1) [He does those deeds which the Creator Lord causes him to do; he attempts no other actions.] ਉਪਾਇ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਮ ਬਿਧਾਤਾ In nut-shell we do not have free will at all. It is HIS game show and Guru ji's Mehr can guide us as stated and explained by you. The Karmas [First] were ingrained in us when we emerged as a separate 'soul' or 'consciousness'. We shall be in the incarnations till HE wants us or till we actually are blessed with devotional love, fear of God and above all faith in HIM and love for HIM. ਆਪਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਸੇ ਮਿਲੇ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ [They alone are united, whom the Lord unites with Himself; they contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad.] [in essence:there is no free -will hence there cannot be any scope of doing Karam as per own will.] And,Of course, Naam jap and Simran , as already stated by you , can erase the past deeds if He blesses us with HIS grace and reconfirmed by the following 'tuk' ਕਿਰਤ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਮਿਟੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਧਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਖਟਿਆ ॥੧॥ [The karma of their past deeds cannot be erased, O Nanak, if they have not earned the wealth of the Lord's Name. ||1||] 'Bhul Chuk Mauf' as I am learning and that is a very slow process for me. Kindly correct me. I shall be grateful if you could very kindly opine on the question no.1 and 2 that has been converted into .. as above.May be some software tricks. Wjkk WjkF Note-I have taken the translations from Srigranth.org

Respected Dhan ji Thx for your response and explaining that there is another possibility in arriving at the meaning of 'Karmi', As a side note I am putting down the meaning of 'Karmi' as is given in Mohan kosh. You are right that Karmi can be Grace of God only. However, there appears to be nothing wrong in the translation. I am not a religious scholar and hence shall like to enter into this. SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary ਕਰਮ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ, (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ) ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਸ਼/ਰਹਿਮਤ/ਮਿਹਰ/ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ, ਅਮਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਲੇਖਾ/ਸਦਕਾ, ਚੰਗੇ ਭਾਗ ਨਾਲ, ਕਿਸਮਤ ਨਾਲ, ਸੰਸਕਾਰਾਂ ਕਾਰਨ। You have still to answer the basic questions of post-1. WJkk WjkF

ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ [/color][By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.] I refer to the above line of Jap ji sahib. Shall be grateful if the meaning of this line is clarified by some of the members.My specific questions a re: 1.What are past action as referred to above.? 2. How do we know as what we are doing shall lead to good Karmas ? 3.Also kindly opine as to what is the theory of Karma in 'sikhism'. [Aape Bejeay Aape He khah!] Does it mean that the Karmas of past life will result in the present life or the past actions in this life shall determine our destiny.? 4. Is there any 'Tuk' as to when the good karmas fructify.? Please quote from bani as i am not aware of any such 'Tuk'. Thanks in advance and WJkK WjkF

Dear friend, The answer to your question is in the following line: Kiv Sachiara hoiyay Kiv Kure tute pal. Hukum Razai chalana Nanak likhya naal.[jap ji] It is individuals quest as to how should we be a 'Sachiara'. I like this line and so I am quoting it in almost every post. Repetition may, therefore, be pardoned. Wjkk WJkF

To amplify and corroborate that my friend Tube-light ji has stated above I give below the one line. One can do a small research and find out other 'tuk' as well. It is not the only tuk in the Granth sahib ji. ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਚੁ ਧੁਨਿ ਸਚੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਾ ॥ True is the Bani of His Word, and True is the melody; True is contemplative meditation on the Word of the Shabad. Thus meditation and practice of bani are the same. Finding out other logic one can see that we state : 'bani Nirankaar hi' . Thus contemplating on Bani is same as meditation on Akaal Purukh as we are contemplating/meditating on bani. This is the reasoning that I used while learning. We all learn till we live it out. WJKK WJKF

An excellent post pjs ji. I shall not be able to give 'tuk' wise comments as there are many inter linked concepts andone can elaborate it further. Following is as per that I have come to understand from the sabad. ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ Soohee, Fourth Mehl: ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ One who chants the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, while constantly practicing deception, shall never become pure of heart. ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ He may perform all sorts of rituals, night and day, but he shall not find peace, even in dreams. ||1|| ਗਿਆਨੀ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ O wise ones, without the Guru, there is no devotional worship. ਕੋਰੈ ਰੰਗੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਚੜੈ ਜੇ ਲੋਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ The untreated cloth does not take up the dye, no matter how much everyone may wish it. ||1||Pause|| In essence: Oh Mortal! Remember that without complete surrender to Guru's teachings devotional worship is not possible even if you are lost in worldly entanglements always be in His company and be guided by his eternal words of teachings and seek his blessings,[ The Guru referred to herein is the Akaal Murat ]and get dyed in the color of his love and praise [sift salah]. Practice His name and simran by becoming a 'sachaiara' else it is futile and hypocrisy. How do we attain the state of devotional worship has been explained at many places in bani and one of which is as follows: ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ And ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਜਪੁ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਵਰਤ ਕਰੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥ The self-willed manmukh may perform chants, meditations, austere self-discipline, fasts and devotional worship, but his sickness does not go away. ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰੋਗੁ ਮਹਾ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਖੁਆਈ ॥੨॥ Deep within him is the sickness of excessive egotism; in the love of duality he is ruined. ||2|| In essence: Overcome the duality and egotism /haume and be a Gurmukh as all the actions undertaken by self willed person [manmukh] are of no avail and mind's cleanliness is not obtained. ਬਾਹਰਿ ਭੇਖ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਮਨੂਆ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ Outwardly, he wears religious robes and he is very clever, but his mind wanders in the ten directions. ਹਉਮੈ ਬਿਆਪਿਆ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਵੈ ॥੩॥ Engrossed in ego, he does not remember the Word of the Shabad; over and over again, he is reincarnated. ||3|| In essence: If one follows the path as indicated above i.e. cleansing of mind and surrendering oneself to the word of sabad one may overcome the cycle of incarnations [84 lakh joonies]. In Sikhism 'equanimity' has been professed that is to attain the state of a mind that is stable and is not affected by the pairs of 25 opposites e.g pain and pleasure; hot and cold etc,.Ego is a great hinderance in the achievement of this state of mind. ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਸੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥ O Nanak, that mortal who is blessed with the Lord's Glance of Grace, understands Him; that humble servant meditates on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਏਕੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਏਕਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਏ ॥੪॥੪॥ By Guru's Grace, he understands the One Lord, and is absorbed into the One Lord. ||4||4|| In essence: All this is possible when He casts His glance of grace and one understands His Hukum and remains absorbed in Simran and that is the objective of this life and this is the way to self realization that is also stated to be attainment of the supremus. I have interpreted it so that the sabad is comprehensible in essence. I do appreciate the efforts of pjs ji and am in total agreement with his views. Wjkk WjkF

All that you have stated is absolutely fine Veer ji, But the topic of discussion is going back and forth.As I understand that, for we the sikhs, sikhi is the natural way to be with HIM if HIS grace permits. 'Khande Bate di pehal' is the first step in the ladder for a Khalsa [ pure]. It may make some one closer to the Lord if one follows the teachings of Granth sahib ji who is the Living Master [11th Guru-living jyot] of the sikhs. A sikh becomes a Khalsa by taking Amrit through the 'Punj'.That is perfectly fine. Guru mantra can be practiced by a non-sikh.Infact, many sindhis do this.There is no strict prescription, that you should elaborate, that it is only for sikhs. In essence of the post: Yes, by following the teachings contained in the God's word one acn attain the lord. Sikhism has many concepts and the most important, that strikes to me right away, are devotional worship through jap/simran , fear of god and the love for Lord by becoming ' Sachiara'. Anyone can practice this. I mean a non-sikh also. I would be grateful if you could expand on the above post ,Veer ji, for the benefit of the sangat.

Referring to the essence of the first post of deg-tegh ji, My frank answer, the way I have thought over this over past couple of days, is that it is the sikh's belief only and for sikhs should be rightly so. It should be so for the sikhs. Sikhism preaches that each and every one on this earth has same divine light irrespective of sectarian biases and religious practices. Each one is part and parcel of the Supremus whom we call as 'waheguru' with love. Let us have look at the following: Awwal Allah Noor Upaya..... Kudrat de sab bandey... The same light is in everyone; and we all get our chance to see Him as per the following 'tuk'. 'Dhur Likhe sanjog'... We are all at HIS mercy and HIS grace. Yes, be becoming Amritdhari one gets a chance to lead a disciplined life and this affords an opportunity to be a superior human being. But this is no guarantee in itself that by becoming Amritdhari one shall meet HIM. One is likely to invite a logically an illogical trap by such thinking. Duir krmu ijnw kau quDu pwieAw qw iqnI Ksmu iDAwieAw ] (469-7, Awsw, mÚ 1) Only those whose karma You have pre-ordained from the very beginning,[] O Lord, meditate on You. eynw jMqw kY vis ikCu nwhI quDu vykI jgqu aupwieAw ] (469-7, Awsw, mÚ 1) Nothing is in the power of these beings; You created the various worlds. ieknw no qUM myil lYih ieik Awphu quDu KuAwieAw ] (469-8, Awsw, mÚ 1) Some, You unite with Yourself, and some, You lead astray. It is the destiny that he has written from ' Dhur' that matters. it is important to know and appreciate that we have pre-ordained destiny that can be altered only by Himself. This is applicable to sikhs and Non-sikhs as well as no one is wise and no one is a fool.[bani]Each one is guided by the order of the almighty from the bery beginning.Sikhs, of course, stands chance to be blessed with His grace if they follow the path as shown by Bani. The Ultimate Guru is the Primal being.He is the one who, with HIS Grace, can help us to impart us spiritual wisdom through the wisdom contained in bani that may lead us to the ultimate goal. ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਦੁਖ ਭਾਗੇ ਗੁਰਿ ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਦੀਤ ॥ The sins and sorrows of uncounted incarnations run away, when the Guru applies the healing ointment of spiritual wisdom to the eyes. In continuation with the above 'Tuk' we have the following as well , where the reference is made to the Primal being. ਜਾਪ ਤਾਪ ਭਗਤਿ ਸਾ ਪੂਰੀ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਈ ॥ That alone is perfect chanting, meditation, penance and devotional worship service, which is pleasing to God's Mind. Thus ultimately it is the Lord who decides us as to when we have to meet Him. We follow the Guru's path as set out in the Granth sahib to attain this. Guru Sahibs have stated that anyone can meet HIM. God is the strength of His humble servants.[ang677] I am reminded of both Mother Teresa and sant Puran singh ji[ Pingalware].

I am in India and can send draft in Indian Rupees. Wonder as to how should i send you in INR. Pl. post a message.

well said veer ji. I remember one katha where maskeen ji said when someone goes int sant avastha, naam simran happens automatically with every breath, they dont even have to make a conscious effort to do so. Such people must be truly blessed!! ___________________________________________________ I also do remember pravacahan of Maskeen ji . He emphasised on 'Jo ko Khavay..........bhunchay[forgive me for not quoting the exact 'tuk'] He stated that one should utter 'waheguru' with the tongue and listen with the ears. that is why ,he said, that it is stated that.: 'Akahan aukha prabh ka nau" [again forgive ,if i am incorrect in 'tuk.] As a side note I do follow this i.e .uttering and trying to listen what has been uttered. I have no knowledge if there is any specific prescription as to how to carry out 'Simran'. But i do like this method as has been advised by Maskeen ji. Wjkk WjkF

I am giving below some 'Tuks' that contain ' Dui rah' that is being discussed. May be it helps. I am giving below the translations of the 'Tuks as well.The translations are not reliable at all. ਲਿਵ ਧਾਤੁ ਦੁਇ ਰਾਹ ਹੈ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਇ ॥ [87-12] Loving attention to the Lord and attachment to Maya are the two separate ways; all act according to the Hukam of the Lord's Command. 1.Love of lord and falling in trap of Maya are the two paths devised by God.He Himself leads us to follow the path. He is the architect of our Karmas. In other words one ay is to be Manmukh and the other way is to be Gurmukh. ਏਕੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਦੁਇ ਰਾਹ ਵਾਦ ਵਧੰਦਿਆ ਜੀਉ ॥ [688-13] There is only the One Lord and Master, but there are two paths, by which conflict increases. ਦੁਇ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਏ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਏ ਜਨਮਿ ਮੁਆ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ [688-14] All follow these two paths, by the Hukam of the Lord's Command; the world is born, only to die. 2.Lord is only but One and He has created Birth and death that seems complicated and painful to the mankind. But He guides us Himself through His Grace so that we get over the maya and remain engaged in His praise that leads us to the Final salvation. Those who are pre-ordained to be in Maya are lost in the world and die as all other die in this world. 3.One other reference that one finds is as follows. The two paths are to be either manmukh or Gurmukh. H;one is engrossed in Maya while the other is being led by the God to be away from Maya and be in love of Lord and naam. One can find out other qualifications of the gurmukh. ਦੁਇ ਪੰਦੀ ਦੁਇ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਏ ॥ [1032-9] The two travelers have set out in two directions. Conclusions All I that is being stressed upon is that the two paths are basically those that make us manmukh or Gurmukh i.e mayavadi or 'simaran- walle' and 'truthful' that I prefer to call as 'Sachiara'.I fully endorse the views expressed by S. Bijla singh ji.One should not rely upon the translations provided by some of the sites and the 'Tuks' are to be seen by referring to full 'sabad'

Kiv Sachiara Hoyiaye Kiv Kurhe Tute Paal. I think being 'Sachiara' is the key and the step of ladder to be A good human being. Most of the religions would tell the same.Yes ,may be some not practice it , it is different. Sikhi lays good amount of stress on this aspect like being honest, truthful.,contended,loving and equi-poised and above all Naam -Simran.It is that is preached to us. One should always praise Sikhi. But Is it the only way!! I do not know much. I have written out of common-sense only and you may be right as well.. WJKK WJKF

Do agree with Both!! But Dear, What is the Punjabi meaning of ਰਾਹ ਦੋਵੈ ਇਕੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ਸਿਝਸੀ ॥ Pl. give your interpretation intead of the one already given that seems slightly OFF.

ismir mnw rwm nwmu icqwry ] simar manaa raam naam chithaarae || Meditate, contemplate the Name of the Lord, O mind. Thamks for the sabad that is so popular on TV these days. English translations cannot convey as to what Guru Sahibs have stated. If we read the above 'tuk' the word 'simar', is not reflective of 'Meditate /Contemplate'. In ordinary Punjabi it means 'to Remember'. Secondly 'Naam' in sikhi is the creator and his creative power that is sustaining/maintaining the world. Kindly note Creator is not only The Naam. Naam is only a part of creator..to simplify things. Naam may be that sargun-cum-nirgun part of creator that helps us to understand the creator, whatever little we can do as and when there is HIS mehr. Creator is 'HIS will' and 'HIs Grace'. Naam is Love for God also. Waheguru should be reflective of the love that we express for the Supreme Soul. Some ramblings and musings. Bhul chuk Mauf