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ghorandhar

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About ghorandhar

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    Mai Bin Gur Dekhe Neend Na Aavai
  1. ghorandhar

    Women Are Black Cobra, A Pit Of Hell!

    why u always think that the person who dont agree with u is follower of some baba ... cant two sadharan sikh have different view points ... and mods dont lock the threads without a reason ... u challenge some history or mahapursh its a duty of every sikh to put a full stop to it ... u could have made the same thread in a calm way to try and understand it ... but u made it in a commanding way ... bhagat kabir ji was wrong and blah blah ... understand sikh dont declare your terms ... I challenge history ?? Its the sant babas who have ruined our history by quoting from old granths and not using Gurbani as the touchstone. There are lots of sakhis that are not in accordance with Gurmat. I ask u a simple question. Just answer in yes or no. If we were living in 18th century, would we have got a sakhi that Baba Jarnail Singh Khalsa escaped ? I was not going to comment but I cant help it. Veer Jassa Singh jee is correct. We are not the Sikh (student) but the ustada da ustad. Guru Maharaj says....... maih moorakh kee kitak bat haai Kot paradhi taria ri, gur nanak Jin sunyai pekhai, si fhir gar bhaas na bharia ri, therefore we should not proclaim to have answers but only add wot little akhaal parmatma has give me. Firstly You are asking questions and giving your version of the answer, so whats the point of asking the question? Because our bhuddi cant understand why Guru jee did something, we automatically think its wrong. People saw ithaas in different ways. I was listening to Giani Kulwant Singh jees khata and he was talking about a Sikh who tried to steal Guru Gobind Singh jees shabad and write it in his own name, but guru jee had taaras on this person and tried to hide his houmai and also reform him (satgur dhak leaai mohee papi parda) the Sikh wrote the shabad on his leg thinking that when he got home he will write it on a paper and add his name. But guru jee called him and said why are u in a rush to leave, stay alittle longer. So the Sikh had no choice, but when you have done something wrong you are scared and you keep looking around and ki koun dikhddaa meri ahaal. Guru jee saw this and said I want you to give you a bath myself (this was considered a great honour) the Sikh had no choice and when he had a wash the writings came of his leg. When he came back into darbar guru jee joked with him asking him whether he has any dirt or lines of bad karam written on his body left? if he does guru jee laughed and said this is your chance to erase those bad karams. The Sikh fell to the gurus feet and asked for kirpa. The point is that no one in the sangat knew what was happening. Yet we think we have alot of akhaal and conclude we know what guru jee is thinking. Your objection to guru jee in the story as ucha da pir is guru jees dress? Then what would you say about the following: Baba phir mecca gayai, neel bastar dhari banvari. Assa Hath kitab kach Kooja baag mulsa dhari Bhai Gurdas jee writes this in the first vaar. Guru jee can do whatever they like, wear what ever they like. Or do you also object to bhai Gurdas jee? As for guru jee escaping, sitting behind a laptop exercising our fingers we might think why did they escape etc, however you need to go back in history and not look at just at the uccha da pir story, but also chakaur dee ghari and when guru jee left Anandpur Sahib. In battle you dont stand in the middle of a field and say please come and kill me. How did guru jee leave Anandpur Sahib and Chakaur dee ghari is something ill let you research into. Guru hargobind Sahib left Amritsar during battle and moved towards kartarpur, through Doaba region and then finally reached Kirtarpur Sahib. These things happened for various reasons. You keep mentioning these old granths, but its obvious you have not read them, yet you object to them. Your point about ucha da pir is totally invalid. You might call it escaping while guru jee in Zafarnama says that it was Waheguru protecting him and that Auranzeb could not touch Guru Sahib. Next you will say guru Hargobind escapted, Guru Tegh Bahadur jee escaped from harmander sahib when he was shot at etc etc etc. All these things happened for various reasons, if you read the granths you object to you would have found the answers and you would therefore not be on Sikh Sangat causing trouble. As for Bhagat Kabir Jee. You come with no evidence and copying and pasting from other websites. How do you know Bhagat Kabir jee wrote this or when he got enlightment? people like Prithichand also wrote poems which ended with the name Nanak, that does not mean they are our guru jees bani? If Guru Granth Sahib jee is guru then you would not bother with such useless topics. Guru granth Sahib jee is our guru, so should you say sat bachan to your guru or keep trying to find other things?
  2. ghorandhar

    What Does This Video Mean ?

    Musalman and Hindu veers claim Sikhi is apart of their religions and now we have this women saying Sikhi is from Bhuddism. Sikhi and Buddism are different sidhant. Guru Sahib bani does fit with Buddism's veechar. The lady should learn to qoute bhagat Ravidas jees bani correctly before she tries to do interpretations. Begum poora shehar koo nao has nothing to do with living in India or destroying the caste system, its an adhyamic shabad not from this world. Bhagat jee is talking about a place where he has already reached not a place which he wants to create in India. Amazing how these people do translations, next these people will decide to read the whole shabad and start saying we will not pay taxes because bhagat ravidas jee said. Its quite insulting that she claims Guru Nanak Dev jee wanted to learn from sants and sadhus, Guru Nanak Dev jees bani came straight from nirankar, it was not written by discussions with other people. Jassi maih avai khasam kee bani. The word Sikh came before Guru Gobind Singh jee, i dont know where she is going with her points. Because Khalsa comes from Arabic will these speakers start to claim we are muslims? The word Sikh and Buddism has no relation to Guru Nanak Dev jees sidhant. No where in Gurbani or itashac granths will you find guru jee saying this. Amazing how these people make conclusions. Its amazing how they wish to tell us what Sikhi is yet they do not want to take amrit....vaal bakri maang katti hai ihnoo maryada dee kee ghaal karnee uhndee... They will never say Guru Gobind Singh jee said amrit chakoo atti Singh sajjoo. The whole video is twisted.... If their sant who was shot in vienna was spreading this bakwash then he was looking for pungi
  3. ghorandhar

    Gurufateh G

    I think Bhai Vir Singh jee collected all of Bhai Gurdas jees vara. Ive been told by many people that Bhai Gurdas jees vara were previously not compiled in one granth...im not sure if this is true, however when Bhai Vir Singh jee edited Bhai Gurdas jees vara (The one who is from the 3rd to 6th guru jees time), he also added Bhai Gurdas singh jee vara (the one from Guru Gobind Singh jees time) into one granth. Bhai Gurdas jee (The one is from the 3rd and 6th guru jees time) Kabitt Swayaai were edited in a separate granth. So the Bhai Gurdas jee whos bani was given the key of the Guru Granth Sahib jee actually has 2 granths. Have alook at Bhai Vir singh jees books for more info. I think the postive outcome of this was that the bani Bhai Gurdas jee of Guru Gobind Singh jees time was also published. The Last // is the vaar of Bhai Gurdas Singh jee (Guru Gobind Singh jees time). The only sad thing is that by publishing the Kabbit Swayyai separatly, many people do not know they exist. Ive been told by elders that about 60/70 years ago the panth confirmed that other than Guru granth sahib jee, Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth, the writings of Bhai Gurdas jee (the first one), Bhai Gurdas jee (the second one) and Bhai Nand Lal Singh jees, kirtan of their writings could also be done in darbar. At Darbar Sahib you will only see the shabads from the above granths sung. This confirmation was made because some people questioned whether anything could be sung outside of Guru Sahib jees bani. I would not be suprised if events such as these led to Bhai Vir Singh jee editing the vara and kabitt swayyai and doing the translations.
  4. So now you have switched into this topic and started your bakwash here. You say you dont want to debate it, but then you carry on debating it. Its not a case of Bhai this and Bhai that, the vidvaans I referred you to are great vidvaans you should first try and read what they wrote and then read their jeevani. If you read Gurbani Vaikaran by Prof Sahib Singh jee you will see what arth are when an unkar is not under the word sant. However you seem to make a mockery of these vidvaans without even reading their books. Your arth dont fit with gurbani viakaran or any other samparda arth, and before you mention AKJs, you should remember that they mostly follow Viakaran aswell. So which Viakaran do you follow? You came here talking about needing gian yet it seems you have not read books of vidvaans or provided any referances. So is all this gian you were banging on about just guess work from your own mind? When vidvaans of sanskrit have written books with evidence you can continue to write your own conclusions. However viakaran (grammar) is totally different from yours. At one stage I can remember you agreed that sant can mean in gurbani (depending on its spelling) and guru jee, then you started admitting it could mean sangat, then you said it cant be a person and now you have come to the conclusion it means characteristics. The Evolution of your beliefs are interested. Because there are some fakes sants you claim it creates a platform, that makes no sense. Its like saying dont call yourself sikhs because it creates a platform for fake ones. You still have not understood that Sant is an avasta, it has nothing to do with being divine. The sants Ive done veechar with always make it clear to follow Guru granth Sahib jee. I dont know who has doubt and I dont know how you can reach these conclusions. Which sants have you met and done veechar with and what did they say? People do pass through different stages. If not then why does guru jee in Jap je sahib do vikaya of panj khand? Waheguru is within us, no one doubts that, but going through different ataamic avastas are written in gurbani. Your not provinding any evidence for your views, so you might argue bhai this and bhai that said this .... but end of the day who is going to listen to someone who cant back anything up like yourself? I dont follow any Sant, I have met Sikhs who I personaly would call a sant even though they dont call themselves one. As for Dhadariawala, I used to have issues with him, but i dont have any problems with him. However I suggest you go and discuss it to his face instead hiding behind your ID doing nindya of him. But people are to dharpook to do this. When Ive not agreed with Jathedhar sahib jee on an issue I go to them and speak to them, however I dont come online talking bakwash and whatever the hukam from Akal takhat Sahib I accept and follow. But you people have issues with people, slander them online behind your IDs and dont have the guts to go to their faces. I wish you luck with your morcha against Dhardiawala Sant, however it will only lead you to one place. But i bet dhadariwala sant will continue his parchar in the pinds getting people to take amrit, wear dastars, stop cutting kesh etc... while you will continue to sit on your computer hidden in your room doing your internet parchar. Santa naal vair kamvdai, Dhusta naal moh piyar. Agaai pichai sukh nahee, mar jamaai varoo varoo.
  5. ghorandhar

    Enemies Of The Panth

    Your article said the following: 'The reading of Raag Mala does not provide any spiritual benefit and not reading it, is not at all a sacrilegious act. In fact, it is really sacrilegious to equate the writing of an ordinary poet with Dhur-Ki-Baani!' When such words are written against our Gurus bani, people have to respond with the true facts...
  6. ghorandhar

    Enemies Of The Panth

    I have told you where the word Sant comes from. Read Bhai Vir Singh jees Guru granth Kosh and Bhai Kahn Singh jees Nabhas Mahaan Kosh. Both say the same thing. If you go back to my last post on Punjab Radio topic you find the answers. Its an avastha if that jogs your memory, if you didnt bother to read what I wrote, go back and read what I said. I provided page numbers aswell where Sant comes from. While you only present your maan gharat views. The people or jhatas you are referrring to who twist the meaning of sants are those who are excommunicated. I dont need to PM you. You kept ignoring the shabads I qouted so I have nothing to add. Although If you want to pm me with a response to the questions I posed, it would be great...
  7. ghorandhar

    Enemies Of The Panth

    Firstly Veer Confusingh why are you bringing up sants again? maybe you should first return back to the questions I asked you. The only people who agree with anything near to your defintion is Kala Afghana etc. Veer Dharamjudh has also presented you with another example. Veer Taranjeet Singh If you look at your examples again you will realise that you used to names 'Baba' and 'Bhai'. Why not include: 'Bhagat' 'Gurmukh' 'Gursikh' etc. Your point is irrelvant. by saying they are not worthy of the title sant you are inferring that the word 'baba' is lower. Then why did Bhai Gurdas jee say, 'jithi Baba Pair tarai pooja asan tapaan soya'? I can remember reading Bhai Randheer Singh jee had great respect for Sant baba Teja Singh Mastuana, maybe you can shed more light on this? When AKJs are the first to question the views of those who are against Dasam granth jee, then its natural others will question their views on raag mala which is questioning the Guru Granth Sahib jee. So people will feel double standards. However I think we have to rethink the use of the term enemies. Guru jee says, 'naa koo baree nahee bigana, sagal sangh ham kou ban ayee'. Its one thing to defend ourselves against Dehdhari, Kala Afghanas, RSS etc, but we should not compromise gurmat in achieving our objectives. The way we are acting we dont need to worry about RSS, Dehdhari etc, we will end up destroying each other. I dont think AKJs can be included in the category of RSS, Dehghari gurus etc, on this point of raag mala they have just failed to understand it. This is one Kamhee when you blindly follow a group. RAAGMALA The Fifth Guru Nanak, Sahib Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji, finished compiling the Pothi Sahib, now commonly known as Sri Guru Granth Sahib or Adi Bir in 1604 A.D. According to the prevalent procedure followed by authors of religious literature, Sri Guru Granth Sahib was started with the praise of the Almighty God in the form of Mool Mantra. After completing the Volume, the closing Shabad of Mundavani M.5 was put at the end as the closing Seal (the word Mundavani is derived from the word Mundana, i.e., to close), and was, of course, followed by the last thanksgiving shabad: Tera Kita Jaato Nahin... While compiling the contents of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Sahib devised and adopted a very meticulous system of checks and balances so that no extraneous material could be interpolated anywhere without being discovered. Each entry herein is numbered and subtotals of each part are caaried forward to form the grand total. It was thus not possible for any miscreant to introduce any extraneous matter in the main body of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. However, it appears that certain people, including some devout Sikhs, started writing in the Birs in their possession certain pieces of information which they considered to be very important for the purpose of preserving their posterity. This is not unlike how some devout Christians reportedly recorded important family matters in their family Bibles so that on-coming generations may benefit from them. It seems very probable that some people may have added some extraneous material which they considered harmless though important for them and their families, at the end of the Birs in their possession. Thus, in some (NOT ALL) of the hand-written old Birs, including the one at Kartarpur Sahib, one or more of the following material has been found at the end of the last Thanksgiving shabad: Jit dir likh Mohammada... Baaey Aatish Aad... Raig Ramkali Ratinmila Hikikat Raah Mukaam of Raj Shivnibh Raag Mala Dates of Jyoti jot (ascension) of the first six Gurus are given in the beginning on spare pages in the Kartarpur Bir. There is also mention of year of 'fire in Kartarpur' as also the year of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's visit. In certain cases the technique of making special ink (Ink formula) used for writing Sri Guru Granth Sahib, has also been written. The remarkable thing is that in all such Birs wherein extraneous material has been added at the end, Raag Mala comes last of all. It is surprising that while all other items have been disapproved and excluded, only the Raag Mala, which was at the end of such material, has been pressed for inclusion, creating unnecessary controversy. Some supporters of Raag Mala assert that when the original volume of Sri Guru Granth Sahib was completed, some Sikhs petitioned to the Satguru, to bless them with some prem maala which would help them in their deliverance from the cycle of birth and death.25 Acceding to their supplication, Guru Sahib himself composed Raag Mala and put it at the end! What logic! What a clever justification constructed by Raag Mala supporters! The whole of Dhur-ki-Bani contained in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, which is all full of praises of the Lord and Naam, could not help the Sikhs attain salvation. And, Raag Mala, wherein not an iota of Naam or God's Praise exists, should help them to reach the highest State of Divinity! Then why take the pains to read the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib when we can achieve our ultimate goal by reading Raag Mala alone? Is not the presentation of this reasoning itself a sacrilege of Dhur-Ki-Bani? The true authorship and authenticity of Raag Mala has always remained dubious: According to well-known historian Gyani Gyan Singh, in a Sarbat Khalsa Samagam held in 1906 Bikrami (1853 A.D.), it was declared that Raag Mala is not Gurbani. His actual words are: (English Translation) "In Samvat 1906 Bikrami, during the month of Katak, at the Dera of Sant Dyal Singh, a large Panthic gathering took place. On the Divali day, after detailed exchange of ideas and considerations, it was concluded that Raag Mala is not Gurbani."26 In 1900 A-D. - at the time of the founding of the Chief Khalsa Diwan, Sri Guru Granth Sahib was printed without containing Raag Mala. One such Bir is reported to be present now at Gujarwal in Ludhiana District. Again another printing of Sri Guru Granth Sahib took place in 1915 without Raag Mala in Gurmat Press at Amritsar - one of which is also present in Singh Sabha Gurdwara at Gujarwal. At that time the two top Sikh organizations, Tat Khalsa and Chief Khalsa Diwan, propagated zealously against reading Raag Mala. In the early 1930s, a special committee was constituted by the newly formed S.G.P.C. to draft Gursikh Rahit Maryada. This committee, after detailed deliberations declared unequivocally that Raag Mala is not Gurbani. As a result, the first 1938 edition of the RAHIT MARYADA published by the S.G.P.C. clearly stated: Guru Granth Sahib's reading should end after Mundavani and Raag Mala should not he read.27, 28 As a result of all these clear cut directions of the leading Sikh organizations, the reading of Raag Mala was stopped in many Gurudwaras. AT SRI AKAL TAKHT SAHIB, IT WAS ALREADY NOT BEING READ, AND IS NOT READ EVEN NOW. (Recently, for obvious reasons when there is no stable management authority at Sri Akal Takht Sahib, some pro-Raag Mala people are reported to have started reading it there. This is not based on any Panthic decision.) However, in the later editions of the Gursikh RAHIT MARYADA, published by the S.G.P.C., the wording in this respect was changed without consulting even the members of the original Committee and without giving any explanation as to the basis of this change, to read as follows: "...reading of Guru Granth should be concluded with the reading of either the Mundavani or the Raag Mala, depending upon local practice." So now, it his been left to the Sangat whether to read it or not. It may be noted that while all 'shabads' in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, without exception, exhort directly or indirectly, the importance of the Divine Naam for spiritual enlightenment, there is not even a trace of this divinity in the whole of Raag Mala. It is just a glossary or genealogy of some raags and sub-raags and their branches. In fact, it is not complete even in this respect so far as raags and sub-raags included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib are concerned, as shown below: There are 31 pure raags and 6 mixed raags in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Out of 37 raags, 12 raags do not find any mention in Raag Mala. There are as many as 59 raags and raaginies in Raag Mala which are not included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.29 Another very important but rather basic point to be considered in this respect is that Gurbani is the Divine Word. In spite of the fact that the whole Gurbani has been composed to be read in certain musical measures, it is not wholly dependant on these musical measures so far as its impact on the mind is concerned. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not for teaching musical measures or raags but is meant to uplift the soul of one who reads it, sings it, or listens to it. In short, the only objective of the Gurbani is Spiritual Enlightenment. That is why Guru Sahib has not written anywhere on the intricacies of the various raags or on the so-called Gurmat Sangeet. The true Gurmat, and not the correct understanding of the raags, is the True Way of Life; though the latter is certainly very helpful and productive. In the closing Shabad of Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji himself clearly summarized the contents of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. According to him, this platter (thaal) (Sri Guru Granth Sahib), contains the following three things: Amrit Naam. Resultant Contentment and Satiation of all desires; and, finally The true understanding of the Divinity by constant meditation or Simran of the Amrit Naam. Further, it is stated that in reality these are the three aspects of the only ONE THING - AMRIT NAAM. He has not made any hint regarding the presence of various raags and their wives and offsprings, etc., as they are only subsidiary to the major content. The following quotations from Sri Guru Granth Sahib in this perspective are worth considering: Raag Naad Sab Sohney Jau Laagey Sehaj Dhyan Raag Naad Chhod Har Seviay Taa Darghey Payeeay Maan. (pg. 849) Beauteous are the melody and music, if through Guru's word, one fixes his attention on the Lord. One attains the honor in the Lord's Court only when one rises above and gives up the means of the worldly melody and music. Raag Naad Man Dujaay Bhayey. (pg. 1342) Singing and learning temporal music makes one's mind attached to duality. Sabhna Raagaan vich So Bhala Bhai, Jit Vasya Man Aaye. Raag Naad Sabh Sach Hai, Keemat Kahi Na Jaaye. Raagey Naadey Bahraa,Inni Hukum Naa Boojhya Jaaey. (pg. 1423) Amongst all the musical measures, that alone is sublime, O Brother, by which the Lord comes to abide into the mind. The melodies in which Guru's word is sung are all true; their worth can be told not. The Lord is beyond the melodies and sounds. Merely through these, His will cannot be realized. Mr. M. A. Macauliffe, who spent about 20 years in studying the Sikh history and scriptures at the end of the 19th Century, published his monumental work entitled The Sikh Religion in six volumes, in 1902. In discussing the completion and contents of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, he states: "A Muhammadan poet called Alam in AH 991 (AD. 1583) wrote a work in 353 stanzas, generally from four to six lines each, called Madhava Nal Kandala. The Raga Mala, which forms the conclusion of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and contains a list of the raags and raaginis and their subdivisions, is a portion of Alam's work extending from 63rd to 72nd stanza. It is not understood how it was included in the Sacred volume. The Raags mentioned in it do not correspond with the Raags of the Granth Sahib." The Mahan Kosh (Encyclopedia of Sikh Literature) of Bhai Sahib Bh. Kahan Singh refers to Raag Mala as under: "Raag Mala: The 63rd to 72nd meters from the Hindi version of Madhavanal Sangeet composed by Alam poet and includes six raags, with five raginis and eight sons of each."30 In his other well-known authoritative work: Gurmat Sudhakar, he has commented in greater detail in this respect: "Many people finish the reading (of Sri Guru Granth Sahib) at Raag Mala. Raag Mala is not Gurbani. It was composed by a poet named Alam, a contemporary of Emperor Akbar - in the year 991 Hijri or Bikrami 1641 - about 20 years before the compilation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib as is evident from the text of the SANGEET...Besides the fact that it is NOT Gurbani, Raag Mala is also against Gurmat because it makes no reference to Devotion, the True Knowledge and Love for God. The Raags in Guru Granth start with Sri Raag. Gurbani also says 'Sri Raag' is blessed among the Raags. It is further supported by Bhai Gurdas Ji who places Sri Raag on the top of the raags. As against this, the Raag Mala starts with Bhairav Raag. All the Raags contained in Guru Granth Sahib are not mentioned in Raag Mala. Also, all the Raags mentioned in Raag Mala are not contained in Guru Granth Sahib. "In the Index of Guru Granth Sahib of Kartarpur, it has been indicated: 'All the leaves of Guru Baba: 974' (in that volume). Mundavani is written on leaf No.973 and 974th is blank. Some Sikh has inserted Raag Mala on additional leaves after 974 at the end of the Guru Granth just as Bhai Banno has inserted many additional Shabads and the anecdote of Sangla-deep without the permission of the Satguru....Many old volumes of Guru Granth Sahib are available at Buij of Baba Ala Singh, Patiala and Sri Abchal Nagar, etc., which do not contain Raag Mala..."31 Professor Sahib Singh, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Darpan, states: "Those people who have made some additions in Guru Granth Sahib, could do so only after Mundavani M.5 and Slok M.5."32 Therefore, according to him, Sri Guru Granth Sahib really ends at Slok M.5, inferring thereby, that whatever is written therein after Slok M.5, is not a part of the original volume and is thus not Gurbani. His other comments and certain points raised by him are also very noteworthy and relevant in this respect: In Raag Mala, the word 'Pun' which is a derivative of the Sanskrit word Punch - has been used while in the rest of Guru Granth Sahib the word is Phun. From a literary view point, it is very strange that none of the Gurus have used this word anywhere in their own compositions. (pg. 693) The heading 'Raag Mala' has not been prefixed or suffixed by the name of its author, contrary to the system followed in Guru Granth Sahib. (pg. 693) The system of putting numerals (1, 2, 3, etc.) in Raag Mala is absolutely different from the system followed in Guru Granth Sahib. Why so? (pg. 694) Raag Gaund has been shown first as the son of Raag Sri Raag and then as the son of Raag Megh! (pg. 697) The use of the numeral '1' twice in Raag Mala is confusing. (pg. 697) It is very astonishing to note that certain Raags contained in Guru Granth Sahib have not been mentioned in Raag Mala, and a number of Raags not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib, are included in it. (pg. 697) Similar references to Raag Mala have also been made by some other renowned scholars: "Raag Mala is not the composition of the Satguru" (Gur Partip Surya by Mahan Kavi Bhai Sahib Bhai Santokh Singh Ji) "Mundavani was kept at the end of the Granth Sahib as the Closing Seal. Raag Mala was inserted by someone later..." (Guru Tirath Kosh by Pt. Tara Singh Nirotam.) "Just as Index has no relation with Bani - although it is the index of the Bani; similarly Raag Mala has no relation with Bani, though it refers to the same Bani." (Bani Beora by Dr. Charan Singh) Dr. Charan Singh, while admitting that Raag Mala is not Gurbani, insists that it refers to Raags contained in the Gurbani, an assertion which has already been shown to be incorrect. Further, does anyone ever start the reading of the Guru Granth Sahib with the Index given in the beginning? Thus, it suffices here to say that it is very unjust to accuse certain sections of the Panth of attacking the purity and the unity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib simply because they do not read Raag Mala. The reading of Raag Mala does not provide any spiritual benefit and not reading it, is not at all a sacrilegious act. In fact, it is really sacrilegious to equate the writing of an ordinary poet with Dhur-Ki-Baani! It would not be out of place to mention here the names of some well known personalities who did not consider Raag Mala as Gurbani and were, therefore, not in favor of reading it: Mahakavi Bhai Santokh Singh; Pandit Tara Singh Nirotam; Gyani Dit Singh and Prof. Gurmukh Singh of the Singh Sabha Movement; well known historian Gyani Gyan Singh; Sadhu Gobind Singh Nirmala; Prof. Hazara Singh; J. C. Cunningham - the author of History of Sikhs; well-known historian Macauliff; Bhai Sahib Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, the author of Mahan Kosh; Master Mota Singh; Master Mehtab Singh, Master Tara Singh, Gyani Sher Singh, Babu Teja Singh, Giani Nahar Singh, Principal Dharmanant Singh, Prof. Teja Singh, Principal Ganga Singh, Dr. Ganda Singh, Prof. Sahib Singh, S. Shamsher Singh Ashok Research Scholar of S.G.P.C., Pandit Kartar Singh Daakhaa, Principal Bawa Harkishan Singh, Principal Narinjan Singh, Prof. Gurbachan Singh Talib; Principal Gurmukhnihal Singh and many others.33 On the basis of the facts stated hereinfore, it can be safely summarized and concluded that: Raag Mala was not composed by any of the Gurus. It was not a part of the original Bir compiled by Sahib Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji, nor of the Damdami Bir. Raag Mala is part of Madhavanal Kandala written by the Muslim poet Alam, about twenty-one years before the original Bir was compiled. There are a number of raags in Sri Guru Granth Sahib which are not included in Raag Mala and vice versa. The meticulous uniform system of numbering of all the Shabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, has not been used in Raag Mala. Raag Mala has no system of numbering as each portion has been numbered as one (1) which reveals nothing and is confusing. There is no mention of the name of the composer anywhere as against the procedure employed in the rest of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. In some of the handwritten Birs there exist a number of other extraneous writings, including Raag Mala. When all other compositions have been rejected it is not understood why this composition, which was at the end, has been retained. The person who wrote this article should get an ustad and ask for vidya of Kirtan and Raags. Mundavanee does not mean seal. also Look at the following shabad: 'ehhh mudavanee satguru payee gursikha ladhee bhaal'. Read page 541 of Guru granth Sahib kosh by Veer Singh jee. Those people against Raag mala never refer to bhai Vir Singh jee, because he proves why Raag mala is bani. Raag mala does not always come last in all the birs where extra bani comes in. Also an Extra shabad of bhagat Soor das jee is in these granths. Will you also take out all the bani which comes after Bhagat Soor das jee? There are lots of orginal birs from guru jees time which does not have the extra compositions but has Raag mala, such as bhurampur bir (signed by Guru Gboind singh), Hazoor Sahib bir etc. Have you read the article Raag mala in gurbani paath Darshan by Sant baba Gurbachan Singh jee? in that artilce you will see that raag mala does not mean list of raags. What does Raag mean? it means prem. What does Baihroo mean? if you go through the arth from an ustad then you can understand that Raag Baihroo does not mean the raag which is sanpooran sanpooran where vaadi sur is Dha and sanvaddi is Ri. In otherwords Baihroo is not talking about 7 sura. There is not 37 raags or 59 in Guru granth Sahib jee. LOL. Please meet an ustad and get vidya. And Also they are not Mistrat Raags (e.g. Raag Tilang Kafi). Misrat Raag is where you add a sur into a raag which changes its parkar. This is the problem when you dont meet Sants and Ustads and you totally get the theory wrong. If i played Raag Bairoo and added in Ri Shudh, you could say that was Raag Bairoo Misrat. Those Raags not in Raag mala are either due to not be apart of Hindustani sangeet or being the creation of guru Sahib. Again if you meet ustads you might understand these concepts of sangeet. There is a specific reason why these raags are not in. And also you need to remember that Raag mala is not simply a list of Raags. But if you read Sant Gurbachan Singh jees book you will understand this. There is an article on Kamalroop Singh's blog if you want to understand this further. There are over 20 raag malas in India. guru Arjan Dev jees raag mala does not match with Alam's at all. I dont know who started speading these lies. For example in bharoo Alam mentions Raag Mudhgan, Guru jee does not. Guru jee mentions Suhoo in Megh Raag, Alam does not. Alam mentions Kumbnee in Raag Megh and Guru jee does not. There are to many differences for me to go through, please read both Raag malas yourself. If you wish to Read about the grammatical differences between the two, then please read Bhai Vir Singh jees book. Regarding Nanak Padh, please read Jap jee sahib and you wont find Nanak in some of the shabads. Also Jap jee sahib does not have mehla written, would you take this out? Jaap Sahib does not have Nanak paad, mehal etc, would you stop reading this? The Raags mentioned in Raag mala but not in gurbani is because they blog to that raag. Also those raags are supposed to be sung in various compositions such as bhatta di swayaai. Please refer to Adutti Gurmat Sangeet smallen recordings of 2005 where all the raags were sung. Also if you understand the link bewtween for example Tilak Kamod and Raag Sorath, you will see how raags from thaats are sung. Again you need an ustad for this. Each Raag has different thaats. Gound coming twice is no contradiction. Would it be a contradiction that at Darbar Sahib Raag Basant is sung in 4 different thaats? What I find Astonishing is that AKJs complain that these extra raags are in raag mala yet cant be bothered to sing the 31 from the contents page. If ive missed anything out please point it out. Again I can produce a list of Scholars and Sants who believe in raag mala, but what does that prove? Ive wrote this very simply, but again you need to find an ustad. If you cant be bothered to do that. Just buy Bhai Vir Singh jees Guru Granth Kosh and Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh jees Gurbani paath darshan and your bharam will be lifted.
  8. ghorandhar

    Enemies Of The Panth

    There is not one bidwan who agrees with you, all sampardas, jhatas interpret this way. Do you follow gurbani vaikaran (gurbani grammar)? Because even Prof Sahib Singh does the translation this way. There is also the title Bhagat in gurbani not just sant in gurbani. You bring the topic up and then say you dont want to debate, why start it then? Im not bothered what you believe or if you dont respond, but if you are going to keep speaking against sants then i will respond. If you want to respond then go back to my last post on punjab radio where we discussed Sant and I asked you some questions questions and ill be waiting for your pm.
  9. ghorandhar

    Bhagat Ravidass / Guru Ravidass?

    Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaj not holy book Adi Granth. If you respect the Views of Sikhi by using the correct terminology and not offensive ones then people would not be hostile towards you. However you want to provoke trouble. You complain about caste being cleaned by Guru Gobind Singh jee yet you call yourself pukachumar. What a paradox. Poti Parmeshar ka Dhaan. (Raag Sarang).
  10. ghorandhar

    Enemies Of The Panth

    Firstly Veer Confusingh why are you bringing up sants again? maybe you should first return back to the questions I asked you. The only people who agree with anything near to your defintion is Kala Afghana etc. Veer Dharamjudh has also presented you with another example. Veer Taranjeet Singh If you look at your examples again you will realise that you used to names 'Baba' and 'Bhai'. Why not include: 'Bhagat' 'Gurmukh' 'Gursikh' etc. Your point is irrelvant. by saying they are not worthy of the title sant you are inferring that the word 'baba' is lower. Then why did Bhai Gurdas jee say, 'jithi Baba Pair tarai pooja asan tapaan soya'? I can remember reading Bhai Randheer Singh jee had great respect for Sant baba Teja Singh Mastuana, maybe you can shed more light on this? When AKJs are the first to question the views of those who are against Dasam granth jee, then its natural others will question their views on raag mala which is questioning the Guru Granth Sahib jee. So people will feel double standards. However I think we have to rethink the use of the term enemies. Guru jee says, 'naa koo baree nahee bigana, sagal sangh ham kou ban ayee'. Its one thing to defend ourselves against Dehdhari, Kala Afghanas, RSS etc, but we should not compromise gurmat in achieving our objectives. The way we are acting we dont need to worry about RSS, Dehdhari etc, we will end up destroying each other. I dont think AKJs can be included in the category of RSS, Dehghari gurus etc, on this point of raag mala they have just failed to understand it. This is one Kamhee when you blindly follow a group.
  11. ghorandhar

    Waheguru Guru Ji Saheeded In Jalandhar?

    Ill try and find out. Jullandhar is in curfew so its hard to get info. Ive rang around different parts of Jullandar but no one knows for sure. Its true that no one is allowed out on the streets. I think Tues/ Wed we get more info because army everywhere.
  12. ghorandhar

    Punjab Radio

    Veer jee you are not willing to go into the shabads I mentioned. There was three shabads and you ignored all 3. Veer jee if you read Jap jee sahib you will see 5 khand. Im sorry but these avasta exist and if you want to call it discrimination thats up to you. People go through these stages to reach Waheguru and you might think its more or less kirpa but end of the day this is guru jees updesh. Veer jee have you not hear of the concept of jeevan mukat? Jeevan Mukat har pavai sohe. Ang 161. Jeevan Mukat Gurmukh kee hoe. Ang 232. Jeevan Mukat is in gurbani over 20 times. However you are saying its not possible in human form. Again benti hai, Gurbani di shabad paar. If you looked at the shabads i referred to, you would not say a sant cannot be human form. If a sant cannot be human form then how can we meet them? why does guru jee in Barahmaah tell us meet them? IF sant means waheguru then why is bhagat kabir jee in the shabad i mentioned telling God to go to the sadh sangat? (kahit kabir sunhoo ri santoo, sadh sangat tar jaheenga). What you are saying is madness. Veer jee ill add another shabad to the 3 I previously referrred to because you mentioned Guru Gobind Singh jee: Deen kee pritpalak rai nit, sant ubar ghanee man gar rai. (akal Ustat). If a sant is not in human form, what does this shabad mean? your principle of Sant meaning Sat does not make sense. This whole shabad is referring to human form. Have alook your self, it comes after the Swayaai we read in the morning. Veer Jee, Bhai Vir singh jee and Prof Sahib Singh jee are both scholars of Sanskrit. Again I ask you to read what they say. Bhai Kahn Singh jee Nabha in his mahan Kosh also says the same thing (page 242). They all say sant is from sanskrit and i didnt say it was not. However they dont say sat. They all say its from Shaant. It means Shant, avasta, Vidhvaan, parmatma naal joria. Veer jee im not saying Waheguru is not within us. (antar vasai na bahar jai, Raag Suhi) However these avasta exist and until you wish to discuss gurbani you can continue to write what ever you wish, however its your mat and not gurmat.
  13. ghorandhar

    Punjab Radio

    Well mate, if you do not want people to respond to your ideas, it's probably not a good idea to post them on a discussion forum. As to who is lying and who is not, your posts are all here for everyone to read so they can make their own minds up. I never questioned whether they exist, but those who are put forward nowadays as Sants don't do anything in a selfless manner, they only do so for personal gain, this is not Sikhi. Well, it's good to know that you now agree that Sants do exist since plenty of people here have shown you the relevant shabads. As to quoting gurbani, Singh, I could show you a line from Sri Guru Granth Sahib that says the sky is blue and you will turn around and say, well blue here actually means green, and by sky Guru ji actually meant apples, and of course "is" is "were" as the apples Guru Ji is actually talking about are Delicious Red apples that have now become ripe - and this is why oranges are forbidden in Sikhism. Regards, K. If you think the term 'SANT' refers to humans and parchaariks of the current era, you are seriously misguided. Sant in terms of Bani is in reference to the sanskrit word Sat. This was a verb used to describe ' good' and ' real', the root of which the term defined as a saint is different to the cognate of 'Sat', it is only because of the Bhakti influence, as well as the complex translation of sanskrit which led people to believe it is loosely translated to saint. It would be not be contextual for us to say that this is to be used as a title for mere humans from the shabads which we read, these shabads always preach equality of ALL with no exceptions, I personally believe the term 'SANT' is used in reference to Guru Sahib themselves, and when people say there is use of plural, 'SANTS' is most likely to be the sangat who are following Guru Sahib, there isn't any indication that there is to be any human form of sant, nor are we to practice a system of 'Sant' following, the term has been misinterpreted, and if one studies and goes in to depth as of the linguistics, semantics and etymology of sanskrit and Gurmukhi they'd realise how this term should be interpreted. You ask many Jathe-Bandian, even such as AKJ their general belief is also one I agree with on this issue. The term 'good', 'true' and 'real' can only be given to a divine form, and you cannot consider humans to be divine, this is not a Sikh practice. As well as this, Bani clearly tells us we are in the cycle of reincarnation, living is false (hence attachment being denounced within Sikhi) and only death is 'real' , one who is living and can make errors, hasn't yet obtained mukti and cannot be 'true' and 'real'. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Veer Confusingh jee you can present as many ideas as you like however they are all maan gharat as they are without gurbani di shabad. Where you did use gurbani u took pangtia out to fit your own belief. You have not responded to the shabad in baraahmaah, why is guru jee making specific referance to meeting these sants if according to your belief there is no human form? Then you are saying that sants is referrring to the sangat who follow guru sahib jee. What you are saying makes no sense. If they are not in human form then how can they be in the sangat? Kahit Kabir Soonhoo ri santo, sadh sangat tar jahee ga. Kabir jee is talking to sants here, so how can they not be in human form? Also you will see that Sants and Sadh Sangat are referred to by Bhagat Kabir jee as different. But you are say something else. As for whether sant is in plural or singular, u would need to look at whether there is a unkar under the tata. Im not sure how sant is from Sat. And if you want to look at sanskrit then Bhai Vir singh jee refers to sanskit books which refer to the word sant. look at page 95 of his Guru Granth Sahib Kosh footnote 1. Rather than your maan gharat defintion, gurbani defines a sant and unlike your interpretation it is referrring to a person. Jina saas giraas na visarai har nama man maant. Dhan Si Nanaka puraan sohee sant. Ang 319 All teekakar agree with the definition of sant and sants like Veer Matheen jee said. However those people who dont agree with this view on sants use Prof Sahib Singh jees teeka but why on this issue are they arguing something different?. Look at Prof Sahib singh jees translation yourself. If you look at the words Sant (with unkar) Santoo, Sant Sadh of Bhai Vir Singh jees Kosh you will understand alot more. If you read the shabad in baraahmaah, you will realise the idea is not following a sant, but you are stuck on this one point. (chet Gobind Aradheeai, hovai anand ghana. sant jana mil payai, rasana naam bhana.)
  14. ghorandhar

    Punjab Radio

    I have not in any of my posts said there is no need for Naam Japna, in fact in my last post I said it should go alongside Shabade Dee Khoj in order to keep a Sikh focused upon what they are attempting to obtain which is Mukti, to reach Waheguru. I have also not used a scientific approach at all, scientifically speaking I wouldn't have faith in God at all if I was to go according to science, it just the words and vocabulary I have chose to use which has led some sangat to believe I am taking a scientific approach to Sikhi; although several people do claim that Sikhi and science can go together and that Sikhi is very logical, I believe Sikhi is logical and makes alot of sense, but I'm not an atheist therefore I cannot take a scientific approach to my dharam. The term and set up of Sants as we know it now, of equal beings promoted as Sants is one which has a Bhakti influence within it, this is prominent within the Bhakti movement, I cannot be conclusive in regards to meaning, however Sant as a singular, as you said is in reference Guru ji, the plural of Sant could be in relation to true Gurmukhs, I am not ruling that out by any means, all I am saying is the common translation in English of Sant which we use is a wise, considerate, judicious and knowledgeable person, however nowadays this is rather being used as a title and ahankar is being obtained also by these people, as they use it as a pedestal, rather than remaining spiritually detached, well knowledge and tirelessly doing seva, parchaar is not a method of sharing their gian, it is a method of using people as a means of personal gain, perhaps a large dera, several greatly significant 'donations' and these are not the acts of 'sant' as described in Gurbani, i'm sure you'll agree with me. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Veer jee i made the comment about naam japna because i wonder the impression from your previous post you was not happy with some people doing this in the gurughar you go. Veer jee, if you visit the pinds in Punjab you will find that majority of the people who are Sikh, visit the large deras you refer to. The rest of the people padhar. Of course there are pakhandi, if there was during guru jees time there will be now aswell. However all we do is concentrate on the pakhandi. If they have maya is that a bad thing and does that make them pandhandi? If you visit Jwadi Taksal in Ludhiana you will see what Sant Sucha Singh jee has done to preserve gurmat sangeet. You cant carry out these projects without money. But soon as a sant has money he is a pakhandi. If the sant sits in a puragh to do bhagati then people start complaining that he is doing what Hindu Sadhus do... So people just contine to find things to complain about. How many Khatavacikhs go to Pinds like the Sants? however no one attacks them. Regarding the Baraahmaah shabad and sants, i used the following translation: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0133.html Here is the English one: http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=133 Veer ji, In regards to Naam japna, even Bani tells us we cannot solely rely on this as a journey in mukti and we do not learn how to implement morals and values of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj in our everyday lives by Naam Japna, but by Shabads, Kirtan and reading and understanding the message of Mahara ji, we are not supposed to neglect either Gian or Naam Japna, that is what my point is. I am also not saying that seva of the panth should not be applauded and praised, but I do not feel there should be segregation, if one does alot of sewa and kirtan parchar, does that make them a Sant... we should not use Sant as a title such as Sir or Lord in Western terms, but rather as a person who is detached and impartial, this is not the case with many modern day Sants. I did no say anything in regards to funding of projects, I said personal gain, this is seen with many of the 'sants' they have beautiful choley whilst realistically Singhs in Panjab do not have these, a true Sant would not allow others to call them Sant they would remain humble within their mind; even Gurbani tells us this. IF we cannot put vishwaas in Guru Maharaj we should not then put it in humans, we should look to gain guidance and knowledge from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, if we are not to do so then we do become manmukhs as we are not independent, impartial and detached. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Veer jee I disagree with you the way you are looking at gurbani and gian. I understand you are saying gian is important and I agree. But what im trying to refer to is where is what is that when we read the shabad what gian have we taken away? I believe in Guru dee kirpa, Apnaa mat chadnaa, this what I understand. I used to think that we could not put this title on put there are hundreds of shabads talking about Sant jaana mil har jas gaiooo. If some person is called sant, I dont have a problem with it, I cant see how it affects your life and why it causes you such stress. If someone calls a person Sant, baba, giani, Bhai etc they have satkar for that person. If a sant has personal gain why is that wrong? should he starve and where ripped clothes. I cant see where you are going with this topic. I dont know which sant you have met who tells you to call them a sant. Veer ji, Let me cover the points you have brought up firstly I fail to see how you are applying brahmgiani, the true beholder of all knowledge of the supreme God, to humans among us, who are keertanis but in order to advertise their jatha they will say their leader is a sant (without offending chelay we have heard alot of stories; simran in a lake and they've been saved, not eating for the majority of a year, and recently we had claims that a young sant who we all know of developed cancer and without any medical help the cancer itself has gone, this cancer however did develop under no medical diagnosis, and at a time when this young sant was accused of wearing a kalgi accepting gifts and allowing misguided sangat to do matha tekhna to him, so very questionable) these acts are not moral in any way shape or form, you are not appeasing anybody these are usless as our Gurus told us these acts don't mean anything, hence the denouncing of pilgrimages, fasts, mysticism and miracles within our material world and the need to not have attachment to these. So lets agree, Brahmgiani can not be applied in the context used as shown to humans among us such as these modern day luxurious Derewale Sants, first you said they need money for projects, now there is no problem with them obtaining maya. 'Teto lavia' the more one talks uselessly. 'Baho bhekh kia dehi dukh dia' The more one wears religious robes, the more pain he causes his body. 'Saho ve jia apna kia' O my soul, you must endure the consequences of your own actions. Is this not again directing us to stay away from not understanding Bani just chanting it, wearing robes (as these rich sants who won't feel the recession are) and does this quote from Guru Maharaj ji again tell us we are judged upon our deeds, whether we are moral or immoral. Veer ji you may not agree with me personally, but this is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj saying this not me, and I'm sure to some extent you do feel it is our duty as Sikhs to abide by these ways set out by Guru ji, if we are not and we live in the doubt that maybe we could apply terms to these humans (which Bani does go against) then how much can we learn, are we not neglecting Maharaj ji by avoiding having to understand Gurbani. My primary issue is the fact that these Sants do incorrect parchaar, they interpret and translate Guru Maharaj ji's words incorrectly and those such as the young one, Ranjit singh in fact rarely will tell you much about our Gurus. Sangat Ji we need to keep clear from paaps hence me posting about this these people can not be applied on the level of being Brahmgianis, for many years sangat claimed a great sant had supernatural powers, however since accusations of Sexual abuse the sant is now very quiet and stopped his parchar, surely if he had nothing to hide and was truthful he should have carried out his parchaar. This was an issue well documented in the website panthic.org, they do great seva for the Gursikh community. Therefore it is not the point that this title 'sant' has just appeared in front of this Bhai's name, it has appeared there because somebody is misinterpreting the message of Bani and DOES actually believe the characteristics of a Sant make this person one, however it is debatable whether these people who put titles in front of their leaders names have read Bani to fully understand what a sant is, im not doubting the existance of Sants in the past, all I'm saying is how come they were nothing like the rich, and very luxurious lifestyled sants that we know of today, with huge beautiful dere and sangats flocking to them to do their darshan, this isn't Sikhi at all! I do not wish to offend anybody's views I understand if one person follows something all their life it hard to think out of the box once that routine is in place, in their eyes nobody should ever question their Sant, and I'm not taking anything away from them I still say these Bhais have done great Seva and have been good GurSikhs (some of them) but they are not Sants, because we're not the ones who should judge, a Sant would consider himself the dust of Sangat's shoes the lower of low, and the Guru the highest of highest. Even Bani says this. I respect your views veer ji, and thank you for your response and respecting mine, I do not wish to offend you and if I have bhul chuk maaf karna because that is no my intention, I see you as my fellow brother and respect your views but do not agree with them. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Veer jee I cant go into much detail now but ill try to respond fully later today jaa kaloo. Just in sankep ill try to respond. firstly Im not saying you dont need gian. Secondaly I disagree with what you call gian and how you interprete gurbani which is just a copy and paste from Sikhi to the max. But even if it is a copy and paste try to look deeper into the shabad. You mention Bhramgianis and sants and to be honest I dont know where your going in your first paragraph. But this veechar is something I dont like to get into. I dont fully understand it myself. However the various arth ive looked at on bhramgiani, ive concluded its an avasta which a brahmgiani can explain. The shabad from Sri Asa Dee vaar is incomplete, you missed out the first line. I also disagree your arth of the shabad. The following is from Guru GRanth Darpan by Prof Sahib Singh jee: 'Likh Likh Pariaa. tita karia' However much (vidya) a person writes and reads; He has maan (pride) for his vidya (therefore it is not necessary that vidya must be needed to reach parmatmas daar. Why did you miss the first line out of shabad? this line is directly referring to those who put emphasis of vidya and gian like yourself. The whole shabad in referring to hankar. A person has hankar of going to teeraths, wearing religious bana, vidya, gian etc, but guru jee says at the end: Satgur bheti, so sukh payai. Har ka naam man vaisai. Nanak nadar Kari soo payai. Aas andisai ti nehkewal, houmai shabad jalai. Without naam in the heart and guru jee showing nadar on us, sukh nahee milda. Guru Dee shabad dee naal asaa ati phikar, ati hauami is burnt away. http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0467.html I also suggest you read bhai Vir Singh jees translation which is quite deep. End of day veer jee when people read gurbani which does sifat of Sants why would they listen to your adivce telling them not to meet sants? Sant Jana mill payai, rasana naam bhana. (barahmaah). Veer jee take the adivce you are giving others and follow what gurbani says rather than complaining about those who do darshan of sants. If you can do a better job than those sants then do it. As for miracles etc. There are many shabads which refer to these happening in guru jees life and other shabads aswell. the following are examples (ill give one pangti so you can look up the shabad yourself: Satgur meri mar jeevali. Ganga kee lehar mere tutee janjeer. Sulhee tee narayan raakh Sach kee bani nanak akhai (the line: avaan attatavi, jaan sutanvai) Karaj satgur aap suhvaria (referring to Akal purakh protecting guru Hargobind Sahib. Read the miracles related to those who tried to kill Guru Hargobind jee when they were a child) har jug jug bhagat upaiya, bhej rakhda ayaa ram ram rajai.
  15. ghorandhar

    Punjab Radio

    I have not in any of my posts said there is no need for Naam Japna, in fact in my last post I said it should go alongside Shabade Dee Khoj in order to keep a Sikh focused upon what they are attempting to obtain which is Mukti, to reach Waheguru. I have also not used a scientific approach at all, scientifically speaking I wouldn't have faith in God at all if I was to go according to science, it just the words and vocabulary I have chose to use which has led some sangat to believe I am taking a scientific approach to Sikhi; although several people do claim that Sikhi and science can go together and that Sikhi is very logical, I believe Sikhi is logical and makes alot of sense, but I'm not an atheist therefore I cannot take a scientific approach to my dharam. The term and set up of Sants as we know it now, of equal beings promoted as Sants is one which has a Bhakti influence within it, this is prominent within the Bhakti movement, I cannot be conclusive in regards to meaning, however Sant as a singular, as you said is in reference Guru ji, the plural of Sant could be in relation to true Gurmukhs, I am not ruling that out by any means, all I am saying is the common translation in English of Sant which we use is a wise, considerate, judicious and knowledgeable person, however nowadays this is rather being used as a title and ahankar is being obtained also by these people, as they use it as a pedestal, rather than remaining spiritually detached, well knowledge and tirelessly doing seva, parchaar is not a method of sharing their gian, it is a method of using people as a means of personal gain, perhaps a large dera, several greatly significant 'donations' and these are not the acts of 'sant' as described in Gurbani, i'm sure you'll agree with me. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Veer jee i made the comment about naam japna because i wonder the impression from your previous post you was not happy with some people doing this in the gurughar you go. Veer jee, if you visit the pinds in Punjab you will find that majority of the people who are Sikh, visit the large deras you refer to. The rest of the people padhar. Of course there are pakhandi, if there was during guru jees time there will be now aswell. However all we do is concentrate on the pakhandi. If they have maya is that a bad thing and does that make them pandhandi? If you visit Jwadi Taksal in Ludhiana you will see what Sant Sucha Singh jee has done to preserve gurmat sangeet. You cant carry out these projects without money. But soon as a sant has money he is a pakhandi. If the sant sits in a puragh to do bhagati then people start complaining that he is doing what Hindu Sadhus do... So people just contine to find things to complain about. How many Khatavacikhs go to Pinds like the Sants? however no one attacks them. Regarding the Baraahmaah shabad and sants, i used the following translation: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0133.html Here is the English one: http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=133 Veer ji, In regards to Naam japna, even Bani tells us we cannot solely rely on this as a journey in mukti and we do not learn how to implement morals and values of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj in our everyday lives by Naam Japna, but by Shabads, Kirtan and reading and understanding the message of Mahara ji, we are not supposed to neglect either Gian or Naam Japna, that is what my point is. I am also not saying that seva of the panth should not be applauded and praised, but I do not feel there should be segregation, if one does alot of sewa and kirtan parchar, does that make them a Sant... we should not use Sant as a title such as Sir or Lord in Western terms, but rather as a person who is detached and impartial, this is not the case with many modern day Sants. I did no say anything in regards to funding of projects, I said personal gain, this is seen with many of the 'sants' they have beautiful choley whilst realistically Singhs in Panjab do not have these, a true Sant would not allow others to call them Sant they would remain humble within their mind; even Gurbani tells us this. IF we cannot put vishwaas in Guru Maharaj we should not then put it in humans, we should look to gain guidance and knowledge from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, if we are not to do so then we do become manmukhs as we are not independent, impartial and detached. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Veer jee I disagree with you the way you are looking at gurbani and gian. I understand you are saying gian is important and I agree. But what im trying to refer to is where is what is that when we read the shabad what gian have we taken away? I believe in Guru dee kirpa, Apnaa mat chadnaa, this what I understand. I used to think that we could not put this title on put there are hundreds of shabads talking about Sant jaana mil har jas gaiooo. If some person is called sant, I dont have a problem with it, I cant see how it affects your life and why it causes you such stress. If someone calls a person Sant, baba, giani, Bhai etc they have satkar for that person. If a sant has personal gain why is that wrong? should he starve and where ripped clothes. I cant see where you are going with this topic. I dont know which sant you have met who tells you to call them a sant.
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