KhalsaSingh

I can't be bothered reading the entirety of this rant but I read enough of it to get the general gist of it. All I can suggest to you is try and open your mind and consider viewing the situation (with reagards to non naam dhrir not being allowed into A/V) in the following way.. Basically, simple fact is the Jatha has certain asools. Consider the western society we live in, it has certain basic rules and principles that it runs off. If you don't conform with them you get squashed... Now the fundamental issue I see here is to do with nimrata AND whether or not you believe that the asools the Jatha follows are fundamentally BAD for Sikhi... if you disagree with the asools, well your more then welcome to have attended the POchester smagam the week before and stay clear of the evil Jatha. But before you consider the evil jatha discriminatory mentality, consider the output, Shaheed Bhai Sukhdev Singh Jee Babbar, Shaheed Bhai Anok Singh Jee Babbar, Master Niranjan Singh Jee, Bhai Jeevan Singh Jee, Giani Amolak Singh Jee, Bhai Rama Singh jee.... Consider a bit of balance within your view, could there be another reason within yourself which might explain why you see a horrible thing when looking at Jatha? Being told you cant do something (e.g. cant go into AmritVela) is an excellent way of sorting out the babies from the smart people. This is where the nimrata comes into play, you can either act like a baby who stomps his feet "its unfair, i dont like it" Kinda reminds me of how you get monay who say the same if they are prevented from doing keertan or take it to the extreem panj di seva.. OR you can have the Gursikh mentality "damn, an obstacle, this and this and this is what I need to do to overcome it, and looking at the outcome from the above list, gives you something to aspire towards. Essentially, your ranting over asked to EARN the right to be allowed to do something, and I think that mentality is exactly why were are in Kaljug now. Get over it, move on and do what you need to do to get where you want to go or sit at home and stomp your feet. Not going to even go into if its wright or wrong, as that isnt the issue, if it were right then you'd have something else to rant about instead so I'd rather tackel whats wrong with you thats making you rant... PS: Not so long ago I was kicked out of Jatha amritvela for not being amridhari. And was also prevented from doing seva on Jatha stage. I could have either been peed off or change my own manmukh thinkinking. Again fundamental issue here is YOUR BELIEF THAT YOU ARE RIGHT, sooner you let that go the better off you'll be. - put your trust in saadh sangat i.e. the above list.

IS there coach from leeds tomorrow, can this be confirmed? what time?

owwwww excellent!

shironmi badmashi thuggs! baemukhitothemax!

I think this should be done first otherwise we have no basis to campaign for it outside of the Sikh community, we should raise awareness of the issue but specifically looking at creating a proper curation environment i.e. resources such as people to start off with eg. Singhs who have studied practicing curation. Do you know of any?? Then once we have an infastructure in place our efforts will get recognised from the outside and thus make it more difficult to deny us this. Right now its "we want our saroops back" goray says "why, so you can look after them how???" they do not recognise their own beadbi so we should chalenge them on their own playing field. Of course never denied that, just accept that those Saroops are being better preserved for the future than anything we can do for them right? I cant honestly say yes to that because if I did i'd be studying curation, then getting a job at the BL to see how they do it, working with people like that beadbi boy jeevan deol to try and change things from the inside out. Once i've learnt enough then go to the community and say "right we need this this and this before we have a chance at getting the Saroops out of their beadbi environment" and thats something your only just recognising but we are only upto the point of making people aware that there is a problem not what we need to do to solve it. Thats all you needed to have said.... good luck with the campaign if you beat around the bush with personal comments. Would it have not made more sense to been a bit more direct in the first place by just have said the above. However I thought the post was just adding a touch of realism as your post didnt really have any sort of proposal as to how to achieve the ultimate goal of getting the Saroops back. "We want them back now, dont care how, dont care what happens to them as a result, we just want them back" Thats the attitude I got from this, could be wrong. Might just like you said have the beaten down mentality to have thought that. and SSM, in all your bitching and sarcasm you havn't actually put forward any sort of proposal. You really are simply bitching. You have no goals nor any method of achieving them. Your attitude stinks of the 12yr old child who is insisting his mum takes him to KFC this second even though she has no car and your just sat in the corner screaming. Never said anything like we are not capable, just recognise you have only mentioned the need for having an infastructure after somone else pointed it out to you, you who's campaigning to get the saroops back yet hasnt put any sort of comment on how to do it, other than your clever sarcasm. Come out with something useful otherwise go do some simran, might make your grow up. But i forget, your only like 16

In no way did I deny that it was Sikhs duty to look after Maharaj's saroop, this goes without saying, I agree with all the above. It would have just been nice if either yourself or KharkooSingh actually addressed the 2 points I made. KharkooSingh tried, despite your both making the typical internet warrior personal comments which I guess was just a cheap way of avoiding the point. So would it not make sense to invest in that infastructure and have that in place before we campaign to get back the Saroops the brits have??? Wouldn't that ultimately make a case, a challange, point on contention the least bit valid to the every day person outside of the Sikh community? Maybe either of you will try answer the first post and this 3rd point this time. And as for my chardikaala, I know its fustrating dealing with an attitude that you percieve to be counter productive but its been my observation that such personal unnecessary comments are from the least chardikaala people who talk about panthic issues yet know little gurbani nor hardly ever get up at A/V let alone know about the persons sharda who they are calling. Challo, guess I did something to diserve it.

R4G Singhs... Can I ask? 1) Do you accept that special provisions need to be made for these saroops that have been stolen by the brits such as correct temperature, avoidance of light (i.e. to maintain colour), restoration of colours where and when required/necessary? Security i.e would be worth quite alot on the open black market to a private collector i.e. how all Guroo Sahibs small arms are being smuggeled out of Hazoor Sahib for the right price. 2) Assuming you accept that given the Saroops condition that they require special provisions such as the above what provisions or attempt at making provisions has the Sikh community or indivudals in the UK put in place to meet these? Assuming that such provisions are accepted (I dont see how anyone can deny it) and assuming that there is no special provisions (never heard of any Singhs with a properly cooled dark room) its my opinion that given the very fragile nature of the Saroops; given how good Sikhs are at preserving anything historic down to the whitewashing of all the puratan Gurdwara Sahibs because they are too thick and corrupt to preserve origional artwork. That the Saroops should stay in the wrongful hands of the brits simply because they can look after them a hell of alot better than we can... at the expense of the correct Maryada being followed. Shame we cant do both. I'd rather the Saroops be around forever in 1 piece with decent public access with no Maryada rather than with Singhs who have no knowledge or plan for preservation on this scale, no plan for access, no plan for restoration, and the Saroops eventually end up in tatters in a relativley short amount of time in comparison

>How is that promoting anti-sikh terror groups? Because this is advertising and promoting the beliefs of this group which has been responsible for acts of murder and terrorism against the Sikh community in india. I agree, if you study my initial post more carefully you can see that conflicting messages is not the basis of complaint, the basis of complaint as already stated is because this group is a terrorist group which is being promoted/advertised by another organisation i.e. the bbc which itself has a history of anti sikh bias reporting. Well if its from me how will that make you or anyone else look like a fool, it will just be me lol Second how is complaining against the advertisment/promotion of a terrorist group foolish? Maybe, I dont know the history behind that, but you seem to be forgetting that it does not have any impact on the situation being disucssed on this thread. If judists want to bann christanity from the bbc then that is their perogative, I dont know anything about the situation to establish if it is just or not. The clear difference being highlighted here is that the (dirty) nirankari is an anti sikh organisation on a fundamental level of its 'faith'.

Yes, which is where lies my objections. As I have already stated in my initial post using the logic you have described would it therefore be acceptable for the bbc to then state natzi beliefs for assuming a natzi community in bham?I would also like to point out the bbcs historic anti sikh coverage over the years that is also quite evident of the bbc itself being anti sikh. I would also like to point out that the belifs you have pointed out are often taken and are an amalgamation of Sikh and hindoo beliefs for again the wider purpose of groups such as rss/radaswami etc. to dilute sikhi into mainstream hinduism. For example the classic pathetic arguments "its not whats on the outside, its whats on the inside that counts, i dont need to keep my hair im still a sikh, its alright to eat dead bodies of animals im still a Sikh" Groups such as these feed off the beliefs of such individuals who would like to change Sikhi to suite them rather than changing ourselves to what Guroo Sahib asks of his Sikh to be. Huuuuh? Clearly you have some other boggle here? Can I ask that you stick to topic? Wow your really brave!

Take a look at the following on the bbc bham site. http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/content/ar...g_feature.shtml http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/faith/sant...ari/index.shtml http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/faith/fait...ity/index.shtml Given the obvious logic the bbc is using here is that I supose if there was a large nazi community living in bham would they put up a website advertising/promoting their beliefs. "Aryan nation, pure blood, supreme race etc" Im sure they could tart it up in the way they clearly have done for the dirty nirankaris to make it sound all happy happy joy joy. Does anyone have any reference for a bbc complaints page? Any ideas on a template letter than can be written? I was thinking as a way to make the beeb stop this anti sikh business is to have so many complaints going into them, each and every one has to be addressed and replied too, this takes time and money. With such a large volume of complains going in the administration costs could force them to reconsider? (Obviously cost of admin for (dirty) nirankari complints vs Sikh complaints) Or how about another protest? Camp outside bbc bham (while its still there).

What other benefits are there to Sri Harmandir Sahib (not golden temple sorry just a minor correction that its not called by its name), other than "Global Media Attn". To what end does this media attn include? I hope you can understand when in a climate of Sri Harmandir Sahib being attacked 4/5 times over the past 30 years Sikh would have resevations about allowing non sikhs to engage in any so called 'promotion' as it has often been used as a guise for other activities. Secondly I personally don't quite agree in this whole media promotion wonders of a world milarkieee.. I feel that Sri Harmandir Sahib should not be viewed/used as a tourist attraction or promoted as such. It should only be promoted and used for the manner in which any Gurdwara Sahib should i.e. to be used to enhance everyones spirituality, used to attain waheguroo. Not be promoted as "oooohhh what a beatiful attraction, wow what nice colours, ok trip over seeya later bye bye". However at the same time tourists visiting Sri Harmandir Sahib for whatever reason non Sikhi related could then possibly be exposed to Gurmat and brought closer to Sikhi. So im not too sure myself. But I don't know if the current climate at Sri Harmandir Sahib would promote this unless somone is specifically going there for Gurmat. i.e. sevadars doing lectures on history, beauty of Gurbani in english and other languages so that the tourists can be exposed to Gurmat beyond what they can see.

Ever heard of the term "Out of sight, out of mind"?

given the beebs historican bias anti sikh coverage i dont think they would take it serious. I think somone should get the death threats, scan them and put them online as evidence. we only hear about the threats against the play writer, lets do better than "i heard, he said, bbc said"

Theres about a million and 1 singhs in bham, tell me you have all aranged some sort of protest. get all the sikhs from the university, post it out on the bham news groups. all of you meet there and line up.

This is a public forum, I know I should take my own advice but please think before you speak. Could you imagine when public threats against her life are being made and what were to happen if somone then took her out? This forum would be shut down faster than the time it takes bin laden to tie his topi. We must maintain utmost respect for guroo sahib, however lets try a dimplomatic approach as to imediately resort to violence before exploring other options would only play into peoples like this hands i.e. see look what they saying, they are fundamentalists and terrorists. Forget petition, organize a protest outside the event, inciting racial hatred, form a line preventing anyone from goin to view the show. chain each other to each other and form a line.