japmans

why? isn't it enough he'll get what's coming to him from God when his day comes? why do we wish bad things to happen... Even in Zafarnaama, there was a significant level of compassion in that... even almost a sense of forgiveness..... and here we are wishing bad upon people... The kid's going to prison. He'll get what's coming to him from the Power of Powers... why do you go to such the extent that you hope he "gets what's comin to him in prison"? unless, of course, you're simply referring to the exercise and daily meals he'll be getting in prison, in which case my post is misguided.

let us firstly hope and wish that the Big Man has led you to meet the person who you can go along the path with. Marriage is a big deal, and that love between husband/wife (in my opinion) has to be a two way street... if you're concerned about somehting, i'm sure your wife-to-be (hopefully?) would want to hear it...otherwise there's a communication problem.. you only presented two options... an ultimatum.. i think that's unhealthy... you need to find out what role alcohol plays in her life.. if it's a social thing, and it's something where it's maybe a drink when she goes out and just once in a while, i can imagine the likelihood of her stopping is much higher, if you can have her understand that it's important to you and maybe in the context of your future children and stuff, if you don't want them to be around alcohol.. on the opposite end of the spectrum, not trying to sound rude, but if she's a borderline alcoholic or something.. welld efinitely still talk with her... but you have to decide where your principles are, where you stand... the fact that oyu're bringing this up in the first place shows to us that it's important to you... letting it slide and letting it happen seems like a mistake... i also don't think you can expect her to give it up within the next 5 days... you're going to have to help her every step of the way IF this is truly the girl you're ready to spend the rest of your life with and progress with. Bottom line: regardless of her level of alcohol consumption, just by bringing this up, you've made the decision that it is an important issue to you. Find a loving, friendly, maybe even a joking way (at first) to bring up the issue... and find out what's going on with her on that front... if she's unwilling to budge, i think it's safe to say the forum would likely say dump the relatinoship, but ultimately that is YOUR call.. and oyu have to decide if your principles are worth setting aside for her, and if you can maybe tackle her drinking later on in your relatinoship and in your marriage... i think it's something you wanna communicate sooner rather than later though. then again, who'm i to say anything haha i'm 21 and know nothin bout this stuff hahaha

I love Pheena. That is all.

by "our laws" i sure as heck hope you're referring to guru nanak dev ji's "three golden rules"....which if you practise truly, i doubt anyone would even notice you enough to bother you....... cops included.. it's not a coincidence that those regions populated by large groups of the same ethnicity tend to have higher crime rates... they become anarchist and think that their rules apply above the law of the land because there's so many of them.. whether it be scarborough, markham, richmond bc, surrey, or, as time goes on ,more and more for brampton too... yes, sikhs play by their own law... which i hope you agree are: 1) vand ke chhakna 2) kirt karni 3) naam japna last i heard, even racist, tyrannical cops have a hard time arresting someone for working honestly or doing community service

What do we do if we don't own a pool of nectar at home, but only a shower with normal water? (obvious sarcasm intended) Isn't it possible that gurbani's implying that the "pool of nectar" is gurbaani itself? The other alternative is that normal, everyday water turns into amrit when panj baanian have been done, like at an amrit sanchaar... so that could suggest that you should do your panj baanian in completion while in the shower.... Ultimately..... Try all sorts of methods...if your punj piyaaray have no prescribed you a particular order in which to do things, do all sorts of things, if you're strong enough mentally to choose the one that's most spiritually beneficial. But then make sure you DO choose the one that's most beneficial... in the end, there's no argument here... start your day off as soon as possible with some simran... the first thoughts of your day are the ones that set the stage for the rest of your day... it's important to start with something spiritually uplifting.

ha... yeah, no, that's pretty accurate pembroke's a nice lil village town, but don't expect any significantly quanitifiable number of sikhs there....

Agreed. When we get caught up simply doing external things, then as you said, god help us... if doing those things doesn't result in even a grain of "oopji preet prem rass chaao" then I'll go as far as saying we're doing nothing better than the brahminic rituals that Guruji mocks in gurbani, because they're really pretty much mindless. imitating the great gurmukhs is good to an extent, but since we're NOT them, the relationship that they've built with Guru is much above the one we've built... as they got more and more into their relatinoship, they did more and more different things as an expression of love.. to them, their rehit was actually that: an expression of love According to alot of the threads that come up lately, nowadays, rehit is *apparently* becoming more and more something to tell our friends about...

good inferences... i noticed your edit, i wish you had kept the original.. those who practice the things you stated with their full heart, full of conviction, and free of mindless copying, would likely have little objection to it. To those that the practice actually means something as part of their faithful devotion, it wouldn't have bothered them... but irrespective of that, I agree with it. Mehtab Singh Ji, the fine line between humility and damaging self-deprecation is sometimes made needlessly thin. I'm not going to conclude that that's what you've done. Sometimes in order to improve upon ourselves, we have to acknowledge the things we actually do well that we want to improve on, and how we can use those as tools to strengthen the rest of our being, and ultimately, strengthen the connection with our Guru, reaching that loving state of continuous bliss or as gurbani puts it, livv laaey It'd be nice to hear if there is a saakhi behind the writing of this shabad, maybeunderstand some of the context it was written in.. I'm not 100% sure i agree with your conclusions... particularly the jump from "reesa karay..." to the end of the next line... certainly the mindless copycatting is nothing more than baseless ritual... but considering the last two lines are saying "these are the exact people we need to be doing sangat with to reach their stage of hukam mann-nna and humility", I'm not sure if it needs to mean that those who imitate burn inside with x,y,z... certainly it CAN, but imitation is dangerous when it's only imitation... we're all trying to be images of our Guru... the greatest gursikhs were images of our guru... the cause-effect relationship seems a bit blurry to me, that simply because one imitates, they are burning inside with ego/lust/etc... but when you first started getting into sikhi, which is probably when you'll think now, that was where your greatest amount of love for Gurbani and Gursikhi was... were you not in a stage of imitation? correct me if i'm wrong on that one, please. but in general: waheguru! good post! thanks for sharing!!! heheh

there is a rehraas sahib track on www.kathaa.net with bhai hardyal singh ji doing rehraas with the sangat at the end of it, it sounds like he begins doing keertan Does anyone know where i can find the keertan from that raensabhayee?

:D I have some batay at home I can pass with saying they're pratan does it make it true? i suppose that the possibility could exist, providing you'd been doing seva for a portion of your life at an important historical itihaasic gurughar of the Sikh Panth. We don't even know the giani or the gurdwara and we're questioning if maybe they're makin the whole thing up.... and that too, sarcastically and tongue in cheek sarcasm aside, chatanga: do you have any information regarding the credibility of the glasses? Singhson, do you have a contact at the gurdwara to find out more? There are really cool artifacts to have if they can be proven to be legit!

well to be fair, you don't necessarily have to live in the states to have an opinion about the general mindframe of americans. I think the majority of the Northern States and CAlifornia are going tobe pretty much entirely torn between Obama/Clinton... frankly i think Bill Clinton will be the tiebreaker, and as much as i wanna see obama, i'm pretty sure Hillary's gonna take it. Unfortunately, I don't think there's enough support from the borderline states, and definitely not from the Southern states... I don't think those states are willing to see EITHER a woman or a coloured person in America's highest post. After all, corporate america still runs rampant, and that is a system, that although is getting better, still prevents minorities and women from reaching the highest corporate posts on any consistent basis, despite them having the qualifications to be there... the glass ceiling phenomenon extends to presidential office, sadly.

besoft veerji i think your question can be answered through anand sahib, the pauri towards the end eh netro meriho, har tum kai jot dhari, har bin avar na dekho koee har bin avar na dekho koee nadri har nihaaliya eho ves sansaar tum dekhday, eho har ka roop hai, har roop nadri aaya gurprasaadi bujjhiya jaa vekha har ek hai, har binn avar na koee kahai nanak eh netr andh say, satgur milliyai dribdrisht hoee in paritcular the last line.... through lines about khand brahmandd, we know that there's countles realms and dimensions in this world, but we're attuned only to the ones where we see physical objects. That doesn't mean others do not exist. In our tunnel vision, we think that we have achieved something, and therefore if we can't see God, then "obviously", no one else must be able to either. Ego quickly comes into play, and soon you're nothing more than skin and bones with little ACTUAL spirituality within you. that's the power of ego. but back on track: the whole pauri i think addresses your question, but in particular the last two lines. how did guru nanak "meet god"? gurprasaadi bujjhiya.... and how can you meet something that's formless? well formelss for your average Tom <admin-profanity filter activated> and Harjinder maybe, but once you've been blessed with Gurprasaad, then eh netr andh say, satgur milliyai dribdrisht hoee..... so through gurprasaad, then "jaa vekha har ek hai, har binn avar na koee"... (this would be when not only do we talk as if we see god in all and everything, but actually spiritually experience and realize it.. when "jeh jeh pekho, teh hajoor, door kathaun naahi" is actually real) and then eh netr andh say, satgur milliyai dribdrisht hoee..i was blind before, i wasn't attentive, i wasn't blessed, i that only what i could see existed, but in effect there's so much more beyond it, so much more... but through gurprasaad, (and you would defniitely have to read all of the pauris of anand sahib for true, proper context of this particular pauri), Satguru Nanak has realized God... He is no longer blind. also let's not do literal translations... i don't think "Mill" HAS to equal the physical meeting that we have between person and person... for analogy's sake, alot of students now use things like MSN as a tool for having group meetings... in effect no one is actually meeting each other, but we all know the other is there, we are all engaging directly with them.. yet technically, other than letters on a screen, they have "no form"... that's a very crude analogy, and not exactly a refined one etiher, but basically... don't believe that since YOU nor I, nor Harjit, or Baljeet (random names :D ) can see God, then HE does not exist... that'd be false... when guru nanak sahib uses Mill, the darshan is purely spiritual emotional and mental, and physical in the sense of that line up there (eho ves sansaar tum dekhday, eho har kaa roop hai, har roop nadri aaya.) and of course, let's not forget Guru Granth Sahib Ji's partakh saroop. When you've been given that gurprasaad, having guru granth sahib ji's darshan probably actually means something!!! instead of most of us who go do a quick matha tekh, maybe a small ardaas, sit, and then forget about it for the rest of the day... or we don't take Guru Granth Sahib saroop as seriously... or we have to force ourselves to take Saroop seriously... imagine, if you could TRULY actually REALLY see God's jyot in every single human being, i'm sure you would also believe "vaah.. this world is beautiful"... but when we tangled up in ros and haumai, we're much more concerned about ourselves than "GOD". If only we could all have that gurprasaad!

it's kinda funny (in a , "no wonder we're a laughingstock sometimes" kind of way) that so many people think they're owed or deserved explanations. For everyone so deeply and dearly obsessed with Sukha Singh's personal life, why don't you phone him? better yet, leave the man alone, and read Namstang's post 3 or 4 times. AS IF so many people think they're some benchmark in Sikhi that when someone comes along to do positive work, people feel that their owed an explanation on certain things... if you had honest questions with pure intentions, you'd go ask the guy personally, not challenge him on some public forum... Absolutely pathetic display of human behaviour... you CLEARLY show that you feel you're better than him. so much for "Kabeer, Sabh Tey Hum Buray", and "Hum Nahin Changay, Buraa Nahee Koey"... in fact, someone woh's doing panthic seva, and you're pretty much entirely ignoring "Mandaa Kissai Na Aakheeyai" and "Jhootha Kiss Ko Aakheeyai Merey Saaha, Dooja Nahin Koey" NOONE is askign you to like the guy... if you don't agree with what he says because of differing conceptual frameworks/mindsets, don't agree, noone's forcing you to! If you don't agree with what he says because you think he's a hypocrite, the least you can do for yourself is listen to the vichaar objectively and see if there's STILL something you can take positive from it... in the presence of GURU MAHARAAJ, the ONE, HE who controls ALL, even the biggest sinner can speak amrit rass. But rejecting him because he happens to have some friends who believe differntly than he does? that's a farce, and you are a hypocrite too, then.. i'm SURE you have at one point in school, or even currently at work or what not had friends who drink... does that mean you support them 100% because of their drinking? If you don't like what he said, noone's forcing you to believe and act upon it... but maybe there's something worthwhile we can all learn, wehether we like the guy or not.

^^ my mistake! thanks for the correction.

i don't know his history... but a rapist's son isn't a rapist and a murderer's son isn't a murderer. i don't know much about him other than he's a son of osama.. didn't he have like 14 kids? I hear he travels alot, i can't imagine him having a ton of time to enforce his doctrines on his kids. just a thought.

While i agree with the rule, I disagree with the way this discussion has gone. I'm in no position to be critical, but I do think it's unfair to suggest that recording/uploading is NOT seva. someone suggested that the true seva are the ones that noone knows about... i'll agree... but that doesn't mean that other seva isn't true... that's quite the blanket statement... i mean, everyone knows (or knew at the time) the name of the man who arranged for 150 saroops to be brought from india to toronto, and he chartered a plane and all to make sure proper respect was given.... does that mean his seva is any less? I don't think so... I'm just saying, i would HOPE that recorders/uploaders aren't doing that just so their name is out there... i think that's a massive accusation, accusing someone of only doing seva so that their name's out there so people say "oh look, xyz singh updated their site"... At the extreme, and in no way am i trying to say that recording is the same thing as sacrificing your life haha... but just pointing out the danger in blanket statements...... everyone knows shaheeds.. it's said that bhai fauja singh did a seva to the panth by taking care of the nirankari guru.... but everyone knows who he is... you can't say that since people know his name, therefore it's not seva... blanket statements are dangerous. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't it seems... if you do all the gupt seva and don't say anything about it...then when you do recording seva, you get slammed for not doing enough of the gupt seva. if you tell the world about your gupt seva, then you get accused of being full of haumai/ego/ahankaar... I agree though...once a month is plenty in my opinion as well... or at the very least, do the weekly update, but keep it in the multimedia section and not in general section... and then if there's repeat offenders of update threads being updated or started in general, give a warning system and then quality-control the account if they refuse to post in multimedia.... I think it's safe to say that only people who care about updates will click the topic link.... so those people will be willing to take an extra couple seconds to go into the multimedia section to check for updates. I agree with the fundamental rule and the original motivations regarding discussion being limited in an update topic. But I have a critical question,somewhat unrelated and it'll probably sound offensive.... but it's not meant to be... On the issue of "all will happen with Guru Kirpa".... i agree fully... so why is it guru kirpa, or why is the solution "concentrate on your own sikhi and people will come to the site"? Couldn't it be said "concentrate on your own sikhi and the number of threads about updates will decrease"? Just throwing it out there... since i'm sure intention (as opposed to longevity) has a lot more to do with Guru bestowing kirpa on someone/something.

everything that you said about me is spot on. I screwed up harder than I ever have before. I stood idly. That's just as bad. I screwed up huge. I can't argue with anything you've said about me. I appreciate that you understand it cna be hard to place a make a voice heard, but ultimately, I was there, I didn't tolerate it, but I didn't attack the situation as I should have. we can all agree on that. The matter is trying to be resolved. Everyone involved has now been contacted, and informed of their misdeeds, and the punishments are forthcoming. If however you are insinuating that my best option as an amritdhari singh is to leave dodra sangat and "seperate myself from them", I will humbly disagree with you. firstly, i can't bring myself to do that. my entire faith in Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and Akal Purakh is rooted in the teachings of mahapurkhs. My inaction is a fault, but my faith is not the issue here. Secondly, while I screwed up, I do not feel that the opportunities and lessons and spiritual growth that is availabe to me has been exhausted. I would exhaust that first before abandoning the teachings of mahapurkhs to find a new source. Once I feel like i've learnt everything they knew, learnt everything spiritually possible from this sangat, THEN i may consider it... as of right now, I don't think i've even scratched the surface, and if anything, my inaction here shows that I have alot to learn still.... that being said, for the 99.999% most part, respect to Guru Sahib is not an issue. I will continue to do sangat as I have been with "dodra sangat" for as long what kills me, and what has haunted me for the past day now is the ignoring of those very mahapurkh's teachings, and that's what will be brought to the forefront to confront and punish these people, myself included. In terms of re-posting the video: It is officially nothing more now than a hate-creation scheme. The story is that Mohinder Singh SDO took his bhag off and threw it on the ground when he first launched his shabad vartara propaganda, while donig keertan at an AKJ samagam. posting that video accopmlishes nothing. everyone thought he was a poora piaara singh of bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji... and he turned out to be a fraud... to this day, everyone, myself included, knows that the AKJ does not stand for mohinder singh's actions and his subsequent shabad vartara campaign.... similarly, this is not condoned or encouraged by dodra sangat. posting the video is doing nothing other than creating hate towards a sangat that didn't WANT or ASK for this to happen. The current title of the video also shows the poster's single-minded aim to do nothing except cause trouble immaturely. We all have alot to learn.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh before this gets too large, I thought i'd jump in. the poster ramgobbind is referring to is me. I was indeed there, but not partaking in the goings on. Someone mentioned earlier I would like to respond to that and explain that that is precisely why the video was removed. In no way is this occurrence condoned or encouraged. This is NOT a gurmat representation, and no one will deny that. Shortly after they stopped their thing, a few people approached the individuals directly involved.. many members of sangat approached the people involved, voiced their displeasure, and it was made VERY clear that it was unacceptable. the acts of these few should not be used to create a representation of the sangat as a whole. This video wasn't put up or "sponsored" by sangat... it was someone who was there who saw it, someone who isn't a regular sangati, and just hapepned to be there at the time. It was explained to them that it's not part of the samagam and not encouraged/tolerated/planned/etc, and for that reason, the video was taken down, and removed. the point is, none of this was encouraged, and that's essentially all i can say. There's no denying it looks bad, but believe me, this is giong through the ranks and discipline and tankaah will be handed down accordingly. It is not being treated lightly by anyone involved, and all I can promise is that it's not going to be brushed away and put under the carpet. Finally, "dodra sangat" or sadhsangat in no way encourages dancing during times of reciting bani; there is a time and place for everything. Appropriate action will be taken so that this is a) responded to properly, and b) prevented from ever happening in the future. There was clearly a lack of knowledge in this, and people will be informed, educated, and whatever else that needs to be done to make sure this isn't repeated. A mistake has been made, and it's trying to be addressed in an appropriate way. Please bless us with your ardaas so that we may never make these mistakes again, and rather, continue moving on Guru Sahib's path.

Vaheguru, Is there any way to find out about a specific day's hukamnama from the 1980's? (1986 and 1988 in particular) if anyone knows, please let me know as soon as you can! vaheguru

wait, why should we even celebrate our Guru's gurpurabs? (wow i'm gonna get KILLED for saying this) their message was eternal, their physical bodies were just the temporal house for them. As Singh123 has said before, Why do we assume guru nanak only came in 1469? and why do we put this boatload of importance on the time period they were here rather than the message they preached? We should ACTUALLY be celebrating gurpurab EVERYDAY... not just on the prescribed days.. EVERY SINGLE day should be a celebration of the Greatness of our Great Gurus.. so why should we condemn the supposed manmat of celebrating a holiday that in all reality has nothing to do with christianity anymore, yet propogate it if it's in our own faith. I definitely understand and can relate to the original post, i don't much care for celebrating christmas myself, whether it be a real christian event or not... but i do debate turning gurpurabs into the exact same commerical mess that christmas has been reduced to. I'd much rather not see our Gurus message one day get distorted and diluted like Jesus has

mannn navreet singh ji's voice has improved SO much over the past couple years.. really really enjoying this right now. kirpa! Aaey Mil Gursikh Aaey Mil! Jin Gur Ka Bhaana Manneya, Tin Ghum Ghum Jaaey

God, i HATE when i get this feeling that "maintaining peace" just means "wrestling down as many Singhs as psosible"

hahaha i love how many people think christmas trees are some sort of serious Jesus-Worshipping ritual. There's no longer any jesus in christmas... Christmas is fully disjointed from religion, except for the small amount who are religious in the first place and put actual meaning to attending Christmas Mass. Yes, it does promote good deeds and love... but being a decent human being does the same.. I don't think I'd ever put up a tree in my own home... but I also know i'm in no place to be commenting on it.. I engage in my own fair share of mindless rituals, it'd actually be hypocritical of me to look down upon someone else's.

true... and they show some serious respect for Guru Nanak too, which is awesome....other than that they think that he was a devout muslim. but Ahmaddiyans are effectivelly banned in Pakistan and are refused the chance to go on Hajj... they're the Naamdharis of Sikhism, if you will... looked down upon in every possible way (they don't even have a gurmat sangeet equivalent to make em even remotely respected!)... I remember having a discussino with a pakistani friend of mine, who's family refuses to go home to pakistan, because they're ahmaddiya, and are legitimately fearful of being imprisioned..... and i've also read online that there's a fatwa on Ahmaddiyyas who go on Hajj... but obviously that last sentence has to be thoroughly investigated before it's accepted as truth. I only read it online once. While Ahmaddiya's seem to be a very "gentle form" of Islam... the fact is the majority of the Islamic centres reject their existence.. they also very firmly believe that guru nanak dev ji was a devout muslim, largely because his chola which has been kept and preserved has arabic/urdu writing all over it with references to Allah. Just throwing it out there.

everyday. just remember it with devotion everyday...and if there's a special ardaas you're saving for that day, jus say it every day, no biggieee!