drawrof

Swami anandghan wrote a katha of japji sahib in which he stated guru nanak had 5 guru's (gur isar, gur gorakh, barma, gur parbatee, mayee). He also stated that anyone could reach this state and was the first to state the 'sant rein' was guru nanak's guru. he further went on to say that 'kesh' is not important and his katha rattled people. So the sardars of kaithal wanted there to be a rebuttal....garab ganjan was there to break the ego of swami anandghan....

gurfateh ji, understanding guru is in itself the key. its like getting an idea because the experience has penetrated your psyche. through the guru we get the ability to have self reflection on what akal is... bhai gurdas ji says there is a 19,20,21 difference between sangat, guru and waheguru..... with gurbani being our mode of worship, by it being given higher darja in guru hargobind sahib ji's court...what we must understand that nirankar's apaar jot was transferred...and khedh was always beyond deh and word.....both being manifestations of worship, deh for seva, word for worship akaal

good exchange of ideas lets get some ideas of the root of the issues: - mysoginism within the community - overwhelming desire for control of women in the house - extended family politics as well as nuclear family politics - inappropriate expressions of frustration - lack of relationship development lets get the ideas going, the truth is that 'religion isn't the answer' why? as a social institution we have failed in india....corruptness is affiliated with gurdwara's deray aren't safe for women gurdwaray aren't safe for women in canada we're too quick to pass judgement and like to paint the issues with a 'faith' brush....it doesn't work that way many amritdhari sikhs, such as myself, get so caught up in the zeal of sikhi that we lose sight of reality and real issues unless our lives are exposed to these problems. I have faith in gurmat and although i have faith society, i see the vices that are so constantly expounded in sikhi are what plagues humanity at large lets not let this issue slip....

just voted, good iniative. khalsa is the 'mauj' of parmatma..khalsa is celebrated, so is life via naam. excellence is a quality of the khalsa and i choose to focus on that and celebrate monty's success in that respect akaal

As promised, here is the kirtan of dr.gurnam singh ji http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...a6985522238875e

gurfateh, our sister is spot on! Do you know what I think is behind this....the core issues? 1) undaroo punjabi, baaro sikhi parents who subtley whisper punjabi-'cultural' norms into their sons ears 2) spoilt sons who think they have taken on the world by adopting/keeping sikh saroop, as well as feeling they may get an extra candy from god (ie. a pretty wife)for fighting the tide of society 3) on the other side, guys and humans in general expect perfection. there are probably another million reasons, but the truth is that 'ideal' and 'real' are usually opposites.

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa, Vaheguru ji ki fateh ji, I would have to say that I find kirtan done by bhai avtar singh ji the most engaging, I have found certain shabads by bhai santa singh, gyan singh jogi, harchand singh ji, bhai balbir singh ji, and naamdhari singhs to be engaging as well. I guess my view of kirtan is different in that I see gurbani as being pure, holy, and supreme (I am using these not because they are judeo-christian terms, but because there is a reverence and connotation associated when using these terms). I see and feel that gurbani is itself the king, and the palaquin is the reverence of it, which would mean raag kirtan, done with a pure heart, in the appropriate form of music. Ie. in the olden days, each chaunkee started off with a shaan (a setting of the mood (raag) via music) a manglacharan (ode to guruji) 1) a shabad sung in dhrupadh using dhamaar or chartaal as the beat 2) shorter shabad (kehrava, teentaal, rupak) 3) pauri (to end off the chaunkee). You have the same love being expressed by those who do lets say akhand kirtan, and that is why it is piercing. I believe that since gurbani is itelf beyond time and engaging. The feeling at that moment of engaging with guru (Whether one is amritdhari or not) is beyond everything. I don't see gurbani as being a "dictate" or a "set of rules", but rather an actual live engagement with ik oangkar.. That being said I believe the penetration of it in our soul is most engaging when done in raag. I commend our brothers and sisters for upkeeping rehit, upkeeping pyar for kirtan over theatrics (ie. akhand kirtan, dharana kirtan). The intention is good, and this is the seva and drive they have been blessed with. Anyone who feels they will have "all" the "guns" blessed on them, will in essence, drown in their ego and stress because unless we are blessed with a path, guruji won't pave the way :wub: . I collect traditional kirtan and will dedicate my life to promoting or possibly preserving the traditions:). akaal

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa, Vaheguru ji ki fateh! I am definitely thrilled about the change in kirtan maryada. I believe this reversion will also change the scope and mindset of sikhi for sikh youth on a global level. Further, I believe there is a connection between raag and spirituality...though it doesn't take precedence over gurbani by any means, and when I say raag I am not referring to people doing alaaps/theatrics etc... Regarding the kirtan, I recorded a fair bit, and I tried to put them on google, but the files weren't readable. I will get my friend to put them up soon, he and I are meeting in 5 hours and he'll probably do it within the next 24. like many, I started off liking non-raag kirtan, but as I am older now and at a different stage in life. I see more benefits and find more peace in kirtan done in raag. (I do not and will not take away from those people who do kirtan from their heart when it is non-raag.) Art, beauty, culture are all pinnacles of a highly sophisticated culture. When I try to understand the vision of gursikhs and our guru sahiban's. I see the following image. Akal purakh ji created nature, and made it intricate with cycles and evolvement. Akal purakh ji created humans, made us intricate and we have cycles which we go through for evolvement. Akal purakh ji is around us, and when the whole sarbat khalsa is enlightened we will be a highly cultured, non-judgemental, emancipated culture that has a religious place which is a stand against 'corrupt' institutions, a society of people who are naturally philanthropists, a society of people who are highly proficient and cultured in the arts (classical music, singing etc). We will be vessels spreading the fragrance in alll corners of the world, in many ways. Every field will have gurmukh people who will set the stage. The most to least cultured people will see sikhi as a complete system. This life is real, but it isn't permanent. We can't negate what we feel and experience here, because it either goes with us....or we go with it! with regards to darbar sahib and women doing kirtan, I truly believe there is information that hasn't been unearthed yet. Where guru sahib had women pracharaks in the manji's and not have women do kirtan at darbar sahib shows an inconsistency that has human interpolation involved. I know my stance is ideological, but kirtan at darbar sahib is meant for both women and men.

This is amazing, Chardiankallah!!!!!!!

Gurfateh all!! I saw and have recorded dr.gurnam singh ji doing kirtan at darbar sahib. For me, this is a dream come true. They sang in variations of raag basant. They used a swar mandal (a persian instrument), 2 taanpuras (the long droning instruments) 2-3 dilruba's, one was a taus, and 2 rababs!!!! I didn't see professor kartar singh ji, but I'm hoping to catch him tonight. I commend the SGPC for this one iniative. We are upholding the maryada of singing raag basaant during phagan. We are playing the instruments used and developed by our gurus. We are further singing gurbani in a mode which is regal and royal...in the guru's court. These above points have been made to do 'upma' of the iniative taken. I am in no way insulting or putting down any other way of doing things. I will put it up on the server to make it downloadable... I hope everyone stays in chardiankallah (ps. I am planning on recording bhai avtar singh's kirtan as well) waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

Gurmat it may not be, as per tradition....one then has to assess what the agenda/mindset is of the people and why it was employed. One thing about sants/baba's etc were that they were 'living witnesses' to gurbani. Understand what I mean here. We all, at some point, question our actions and why we choose to follow sikhi. Some people find no need for religion/others look for examples. Sants are these examples. Many in this life, contrary to gurmat or not, are actually inspired by another person. They are bound to the attachment they have developed (I personally feel that attachment to a sant/brahmgyani/sadhu will inevitably lead you to their shortcoming, even if it is the slightest). My feelings aside..... it is a person's/communities tribute to that which brought them peace, I don't see why a commemoration of a sant/baba/gurmukh/teacher etc is wrong. Again, I won't say that it should be the norm.

another interesting thing to note about ZEE tv, is how on vaisakhi how they have kirtan and a bit of explanation, BUT the focus remains on bhangra....and the tasteless stuff at that. when was the last time ramadan had dancing associated with it????? stuff to make you think.

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh! purpose of this thread: to reveal and bring forth information regarding guru nanak sahib that people may not be normally aware of. motivation: As sikhs living in the west we are bounded to a eurocentric paradigm (simply, we have to think the way we are taught in the manners which we are taught). This goes from everything from the information in our textbooks to the way we understand gurbani. Ie. we, for some reason, tend to use a dualistic/static god and use a "western" methodology to try to understand god (ie. polarities....which are good examples to use when breaking through our relative perception of things, but claiming polar "static" goods...and polar "Static" bads leads to subcription of acts as opposed to an endeavour of self introspection).... before I sound like too much of a philosopher. I will continue with my purpose to unearth facts regarding guru nanak that are overlooked example: here is a list of the worlds explorers...I am assuming these people travelled by foot..... look at where guru nanak is, and notice how it isn't common knowledge.....whereas 1) marco polo is very well known, almost considered the benchmark by many 2) magellan...wasn't it also a search engine? 3) vasco de gama, christopher columbus...names speak for themself 4)does anyone know who batuta was? Readers digest-Great World Atlas, published by the reader’s digest association. !962 The world explorers Name Duration Ibn batuta 32 years Guru nanak 27 years Marco polo 25 years James cook 10 years Ferdinand Magellan 4 years Vasco de gama 3 years Christopher Columbus 2 years

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh! I feel for you singh, I used to have the same happen to me....pm me if you want to know what happened. its a double edged sword....on one hand one shouldn't really be displaying their anand externally (although I know how hard it is), but the sangat should be jealous...you should be getting support not slander... I feel bad that you were embarrassed (and I dont' think you should have had it coming to you).. the corrective action would have been for people to actually approach you afterwards and offer guidance etc.... There was never a seperation between women and men in the past (from what I've read..) I can see how people are bothered right now....as it isn't the norm...but in sangat its sangat....I don't think this situation should be blown out of proportion...again, I feel for you.

Guru nanak sahib was the embodiment of nirankar, in sargun saroop. a sargun avtar has 14, 16 kalas, but never sees the full picture.... Guru Nanak Sahib demonstrated more than that and in all 10 jots in human form, guru sahib was able to understand and pretty much determine who was and who wasn't one with god guru nanak is deemed sant, pir, lama, ustaad, baba, nirankar...... guru sahib was the embodiment of gurbani, and that gurbani was nirankar. This goes deeper into naad and dhuni, but the emmanation of akaal in kudrat is gurbani, that gurbani came from nowhere except the heart of guru nanak and it was sung by him so that we could be ignited. ie. the average person is touched by love songs written by artists like mariah cary, because they can relate....only the lovers of god could truly grasp what guruji was writing.... you can't fake the funk! akaal