Sukhdeep Singhh

By Christianizing I meant Sikhi becoming a religion of " professional clerics"( professional raagis ,professional kathavachiks) and a mass of illiterates. Sikhi is about experiencing Sikhi directly from Guru Sahib not from a second hand man or clergy. We must work hard on our Bhagti we cant have others do our Bhagti for us. "You would not suggest to a number of children not to attend school. To just sit as a group and read a maths book then to experiance what they have learned. Without the core (texts/shabad) and the teacher one does not actually learn as the ego leads them down a long and dark path to no where." I would suggest the child to go to school ( sadh Sangat), and learn the core cirriculim ( Gurmat ) directly from the master ( Guru Ji). You have not addressed any points I mentioned in my preious post. Its strange how you have changed this whole conversation to a my group is better and more ancient then your group" Again this all Ego. All modern day groups ( AKJ, Nanaksar, Modern day Taksal, Rara Sahib,etc) were created during the Singh Sabha movement by saintly Gursikhs to combat the distortion of Sikhi and for this reason all modern day groups have in some shape or manner been blessed with Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. AKJ is an example both Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, Bhai Rama Singh Ji,and Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji have had darshan of Guru Sahib and Guru Ji gave them panthic instructions. Guru Sahib never created four groups there is no purpose to do so. Guru Ji created the Khalsa he never had any intentions to make any divisions only desi people like to make divisions. The ancient Taksal was created by Guru Sahib to teach pronunication and meanings of Gurbani it was not the modern political group you see today. If some one went to the Taksal they were a Singh first ; Ancient Taksal was open for all SInghs it was not some elitist jatha which people joined and parted from the Akal Takht. Again Guru Ji created the Khalsa and the Taksal was a place of study which all Singhs were part of since its a SInghs duty to learn meanings and reciation of Gurbani. . Baba Deep Singh Ji is an example Baba Ji was not a Nihang Singh or a Taksali Singh. Clear fact is Baba Ji IS a Singh first and foremost. people like to make claims that there group is from the lineage of Guru Sahib but this all done out of Ego to make themselves feel better and brighter then other Singhs. Again I would suggest you do not get attached to any group you should respect and enjoy sangat but dont get attachments. Nobody came with you into this world and nobody will leave with you. Im not into groups so If you dont want to address Gurbani dont bother replying to this message. Im not concerned with the history of any modern day group. If you read my post on this thread it is clear that Im a staunch supporter of Rehat Maryada progagated by the AKJ but this doesnt mean Im a " neo AKj" whatever that means. Whether it be Nanaksar, Taksal, AKJ, non affiliation, I will go to any sangat where there is NAAM because this is the only thing I cant take with me upon leaving. As far as im concerned any Gursikh who striclt and only follows Gurmat rehat is from the lineage of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. It doesnt matter what group you belong too if a person wants Guru Jis blessing they need to please Guru Ji first and foremost instead of wasting their time defending their clique.

I dont think Sikhi is about predictions. This is things that the Abrahamic religions rely on. Sikhi doesnt have a pre-determined attitude. There is always possibility of change. I think Guru Ji warning the things that will happen if people dont live by truth and stand up for truth. Guru Ji is giving us a vivid picture of what life would be like. If we look in our own societies we can see how much this is true. Our lifes and experiences are as real can be we will always have a life an Guru Ji expects us to do good with this life. We should not fear death or bad times we should always try to good and remain in high spirits about the future. swD smUh pRsMn iPrYN jg sqR sBY Avlok cpYNgy ] 7]27]

I think Katha in the pangti you provided is to the Katha perfomed by Guru Sahib ( Gurmat) because the pangti before Guru Ji states gux gwvq mnu hirAw hovY ] Gun Gavat is referring to Gurbani Kirtan , and the same would apply to Gurmat otherwise we can interpret Gun Gavaat as praisal from any mat ( Christian, Hindu,etc)

Bhai Sahib this is where the problem lies . We cant assume Gurbani is an ordinary language. Gurbani is unbroken without an end and was in existence before the beginning of time. Guru Sahib had to use words to convey a deep spritual message from Sach Khand which really cant be understood in languages of that time because of the deepness of Gurmat. Take the following Shabad for example ( http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=3043) We can never understand this shabad by taking the words at face value. So too say look into the roots of the word like katha to understand Gurbani really does no justice to the beauty of Gurus deep and mysterious bachan. I have heard kathavachiks often try to explain the root/origin of words and explain Gurbani according to the roots of these words. Again Gurmat concepts and language is completely diffrernt then Sanskrit, Arabic, etc. Much of Gurbani language is crypted we have to learn Gurbani Grammer and build our kamaee to get deeper understanding of Guru Jis message. I have heard some Kathavachiks refer to Katha as Parkash while others refer to Katha as Gian, and they try to break down the words and its roots. But to give a word in Gurbani a single definition is a major fault if we applied a single meaning of a word then many Pangita would not make sense. For example if we interpretted the word Katha as Parkash throughout Gurbani many of the meaning of Gurbani would have strange meanings. If we are too intepret or understand language through own thinking or cultural thinking then we are the only ones to lose from a greater spiritual live experience. Guru Jis Hukum can only have one meaning , we all just interpet Guru Jis Hukum according to our understanding.Many times in Gurbani, the word Katha is used in a different context. By studying Gurbani Grammar we can come to a better understaning of what the word means by taking into consideration to the whole pangti. Words in Gurbani have different meanings, but each Pangti in Gurbani has one single meaning. For example the follwing Gurvak kQw khwxI bydNØI AwxI pwpu puMnu bIcwru ] In this Gurvak the word Katha along with the words Kahanee ( stories), and Beydee ( four vedas)are plural . So the meaning of Katha in this pangti is simply defined as theological discussions. Now we cant use the definition of discussion/discourse when understadning the following pangti qyrI AkQ kQw gur sbid vKwxI ]1] rhwau ] the following Pangti Akath Katha cannot be simply understood as Discourse from its Sanksirt origns. Here the word Akatha Katha is refering to Unspoken Word a word which is alien to any language in this world. Unspoken word means Gurmantar ( Gurshabad) going automically where the devotee is not reciting the mantar by themselves instead the Gurmantar is going automatic ( akath) with each breath. The person is not reciting Gurmantar mechanically instead the Gurmantar keeps penetrating without any effort it becomes automatic . In the above shabad above Guru Ji clearly explains this experience happens through following the Gurus teachings, and in Anand Sahib Guru Ji clearly expalins the experience and the opposite of Akath Katha that maya-filled mooraks like me go through all the time when doing Naam Jaap icqu ijn kw ihir lieAw mwieAw bolin pey rvwxI ] So when Mind is full of Maya, Akath Katha is not possible. Recitation become manual when we are not folllowing Guru Jis directions. Again Gurbani is Akath Katha a language of expereince we cant understand Gurbani in an intellectual manner nor can we turn the language of Gurbani as an offshoot of other languages.

Oh yeah I forgot by the way im not AKJ . i dont belong to any group. I respect all people who make Gurmat their lifes work.

I respect your views. But just to clear things up Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji was not against Gurmat Veechar or explanation of History, because these things are very important and allow Gursikhs to have great love for Guru Sahib, but what he is saying is that True Kamaee comes from doing Naam Abhyiaas and Sifat Salah of Waaheguru Ji through Gurbani. Bhai Sahib is saying: one cant get mukti just by listening to Katha, one cant be lazy, one must do Kamaee . Gurbani is clear on this fact. What we take with us when we leave this world is the Naam we collected. Also Bhai Sahib was a true believer that the House of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a House of Bhagti where sangat go all out on their Bhagti. Thus he was clearly against having katha in the Gurdwara since complete emphasis of Gurdwara etiquette consist of meeting Sadh Sangat and going all out in ones Kamaee. Im afraid are religion is being to Christianized where we have a certified Giani preach to the sangat for an hour or 2 and people go home feeling like they learned something. We need to experience the power of Gurbani through doing hard core Bhagti with sangat.

Bhai Sahib is not saying the pangti is referring to a Giani. You have purposely misquoted or misunderstood the statement. The original statement was "The next pankiti proves that "Har kee Katha" is referred to Naam here and not katha by some gyani. Dard (pain), dukh (sorrow) will go away listening to Naam roopi Katha and not katha by some gyani. How can the katha of a certified gyani be "Sabh tey uttam" i.e. greatest of all. Greatest Katha is Gurbani itself." How can we refer to this pangti is referring to some certified Giani who makes money off Gurbani. THe next pangti clearly states that by listening to the Katha of Naam all pains are destroyed. If we say this pangti is referring to the Katha of a "Giani" then we are saying he is speaking Naam and his words destroy all pains. That would be blasphemous to compare the words of a motal the Bachan of SatGuru Ji.

Bhai Sahib are you trying to compare History to Gurbani? We cant compare anything to Har Katha in Gurbani. Guru Jis Katha is full of Amrit, does the sayings in history have the same affect.

Bhai Sahib's views on Katha are very much misunderstood. In his book "Katha Kirtan" he has explained the term "Katha" as it appears in Gurbani. In Gurbani, the meaning of Katha is one of the 9 meanings listed and explained later in this article. Secondly, what Bhai Sahib has written is that doing katha of Gurbani is not kalyankaari i.e. this karma in its capacity cannot lead one to salvation as chanting of Naam and recitation of Gurbani does. It helps one to solidify one's position on the spiritual path, provided it's done by a person who is well-versed in meanings of Gurbani but just by listening to Katha one cannot get Paramgat (salvation). On the other hand, the Akath Katha (description of the unexplainable i.e. Gurbani) of Naam and Naami Vaheguru that our Guru Sahibaan have done is such that just by listening to it and by uttering it, one gets paramgat. Similarly the Har Har Katha i.e. Naam is such that just by listening to this Har Har Katha (Naam) and by chanting it, one gets Paramgat (salvation). Bhai Sahib has not said that one should not do meanings of Gurbani for personal understanding. Bhai Sahib was not against katha of Sooraj Prakash and other historical granths but he was of the opinion that the katha of Gurbani was not done at Gurdwara Sahibaan. He himself witnessed that in olden days the katha of Gurbani was not done at Gurdwara Sahibaan. Only Kirtan was sung or Katha of history was done. Some people use the pankit below and preach that Katha is greatest Karma of all but they fail to understand that in Gurbani the word "Katha" is never used in the meanings of doing lectures, translating Gurbani, or doing katha of history. In Gurbani the word Katha is used in one of the 9 meanings listed later in this article. "Sabh te utam Har kee Katha|| Naam Sunat Dard Dukh Latha||" The next pankiti proves that "Har kee Katha" is referred to Naam here and not katha by some gyani. Dard (pain), dukh (sorrow) will go away listening to Naam roopi Katha and not katha by some gyani. How can the katha of a certified gyani be "Sabh tey uttam" i.e. greatest of all. Greatest Katha is Gurbani itself. What is Gurbani? Guru Sahibaan have done katha of Vaheguru and his Naam and his bhagats, in form of Gurbani. Gurbani is the Akath Katha of Naami Vaheguru. Then Har Har Katha i.e. Naam japna is the katha of Vaheguru that Gurmukhs do with every swaas. To equate the katha of a mortal being with Gurbani is nothing short of blasphemy. Bhai Sahib's last book was Katha Kirtan and this book inspires one to do more paath and Naam abhyaas. This book explains the importance and greatness of Gurbani and Naam. It rejuvenates and kindles one's faith in Gurbani and Naam.This book is about the word "katha" as it appears in Gurbani. Bhai Sahib has written that the word "Katha" appears in Gurbani in many meanings but never in the following two meanings: 1) History Katha e.g. Suraj Parkash Granth Katha etc. 2) Gurbani katha i.e. translation of Gurbani. Following are some of the meanings of the word "Katha" in Gurbani: 1) Akath Katha (of Naami Vaheguru) through Gurbani. Akath means that which cannot be explained or expressed. Akath means Vaheguru. Akath Katha means the explanation or description of the unexplainable and indescribable Vaheguru. 2) Gur-deekhiya roop Katha i.e. Gurmantr roop Katha that we get at the time of initiation or Amrit Sinchaar Samagam. 3) Har Har Katha i.e. Katha of Vaheguru through Naam Abhyaas. In other words to Japp Naam is doing Katha of Vaheguru. 4) Katha of Vaheguru through Ajappa Jaap. When the Jaap of Vaheguru goes on all by itself, and does not stop ever, it is referred to as Ajappa Jaap. Doing Ajappa Jaap is doing Katha of Vaheguru. 5) Amrit Katha - Again this is Katha of Vaheguru through Gurbani or Naam. When one sings Gurbani, one is doing Amrit Katha of Vaheguru and his qualities. 6) Sehaj Katha: This is a mystical state where katha of Vaheguru is done by the jeev aatma, through Naam or is listened by the jeev atma when it reaches the high spiritual states. 7) Guhaj Anand Binodi Katha. 8) Akath Katha through kirtan. 9) Sadh Jana kee Acharaj Katha (7 ashtpadi of Siri Sukhmani Sahib). It means praising Guru Sahibaan through Gurbani is referred to as Sadh Jana kee Acharaj Katha. Following is an extract from Bhai Sahib's book Katha Kirtan. It's impossible to do correct and accurate translation of Bhai Sahib's writing. Guru Sahib baksh lain. ***************Translation begins************* ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਪੜੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗੁਣੀਐ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਕਥਾ ਨਿਤ ਸੁਣੀਐ ॥ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਏ ਜਗੁ ਭਉਜਲੁ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਤਰੀਐ ਜੀਉ ॥1॥ In this gurvaak, reading Hargunn (qualities of Vaheguru, Gurbani) and singing Hargunn (gurbani) has been determined as Katha of Harnaam. To sing the qualities of God's Naam is doing Gurmat Katha of Har Naam. This Love Katha is sung in Satsangat while being absorbed in Naam. Some stubborn people who are supporters of doing Katha of Gurbani claim that in the first pankiti "ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਪੜੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗੁਣੀਐ ॥" , both doing paath of Gurbani and kirtan of Gurbani has been clearly mentioned. The second pankiti therefore clearly refers to doing Katha of Gurbani, just as traditionally the katha of Gurbani has been done at samagams after Gurbani kirtan. In response to the above claim, we have mentioned this many times that this (the above paragraph) is a false statement and this maryada of doing katha after kirtan just got started out of imitation. What Katha can some Kathakaar do of Naam? The words "Har Har" appear two times before "Naam" which clearly means that saying Naam again and again is doing Tatt Katha and this is not something you are supposed to do only daily (once a day) but with every breath. The Kathakaars who do katha at Gurdwaras don't do katha of Naam but they do katha of Gurbani Shabad. (therefore they cannot use the second pankiti of the above shabad in their favour). For some years now, the katha of amritvela hukamnama of Siri Darbar Sahib Siri Amritsar has been started at Gurdwara Manji Sahib but this maryada was not there in the past. Before, there used to be katha of only Suraj Parkash or some other historical scripture (not of Gurbani). And what Shabad Katha do they do there? They just express the false beliefs of their mind there. Many times this katha is done in form of a lecture. Famous scholars of Chief Khalsa Diwan do the katha of Gurbani standing and in lecture form. We ourselves have heard them doing so. To call this lecture, a katha, is a wrong thing to say. It is purely an entertainment of mind and nothing spiritual. No one does katha of Naam Shabad rather the real essence of Gurbani Shabad is lost during these katha samagams. They tell tales with the cleverness of their mind. Just because they call it Gurshabad Katha does not mean that it becomes Gurshabad Katha. *************Translation Ends****************** Kulbir Singh

If you send an email to the following address atammarg@glide.net.in Bhai Harjinder SIngh should be able to help you find any book by Baba Ji. It might take a few days for him to respond.

ਥਾਲੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਤੈ ਵਸਤੂ ਪਈਓ ਹਰਿ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥ thhaalai vich thai vasathoo peeou har bhojan anmrith saar || Upon the plate, three things have been placed; this is the sublime, ambrosial food of the Lord. This is a wrong translation. There is no meaning of three in the pangti in Sorath Raag. Teh and treh are two different meanings. I think the meaning is "on this plate you have placed the sublime ambrosial food. While In Mundavani Raag the pangti specifically uses the word three and mentions three main "substances' in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

WaaheguRu!

I cant believe this guy has the nerve to be asking for such things. http://www.panthic.org/articles/5190

Thank you for the information I appreciate it. But like I mentioned in the last reply, I'm talking about names that do not have any meaning(s), nor relations to anything in particular. I mentioned how I'm not referring to names from a different religion or culture. Here is the main reason why I am asking all of this: My sister's name does not have a meaning. It does not have a any ties to any religion/culture etc. It is a made-up name. Completely made up. This is what I am asking. ***I am not asking about "Jennifer Kaur" or "Jefferey Singh".*** Thank you. Ok sorry, lol Usually when you take Amrit, Panj Pyaarey ask you if you name has been given according to Sikh tradition . If no then the Panj Pyaarey take a Hukum and a new name is given.

Nope! Why do you ask? And another reason to not show the ras in sangat is because it distracts others from concentrating. You become the center of attention when it is suppose to be Guru Sahib. Think of in terms of Sarbat Da bhalla. Just call me curious George, lol