Ek0sikh

after watching the videos Sikhs will look like a bunch of un-organised, illiterate, old fashioned, dangerous, uncontrollable, unruly without any intelligent leadership pack of lions to any outsider. Take any Gurdwara Sahib ji. its being controlled by probably an old styled, uneducated man and that too from last many many years. we don't like change. We stick to idiots. it happens here and it happens in Punjab. Nothing new. Leaders, committee members/ heads should change after every 2-3 years. don't vote same people into the power again and again. otherwise this story will repeat itself. by god's grace nobody died but look back at the history. after watching this people will strongly support anything which says sikhs shouldnt be allowed to carry long kirpans.

can you still be a Sikh without hair?

also it is not moral to ask 24/7 every women coming to do path whether she is not on their periods. i think that is why it was kept out of this sacred system. if not on periods then it is perfectly fine but please go and change this at Darbar Sahib first. I think a start should be made at the highest throne.

Kaal veer ji i'm NNNNNNOOOOOOTTTTT making my own statement but telling you what someone thinks. Even some ladies think in the same way. If you feel "really" sorry about this issue go to Darbar sahib and TRY speaking to the granthis/ or sgpc about this!! some ancient rituals need not be challenged. I remember a singh challenging "bakre di bali" opposite Takht Nanded Sahib. He was saved by police at the end. If you talk to some amritdhari elders you will find some more opinions on this. I'M NOT AGAINST EQUALITY between men and women as you have given me a TAG.I believe there might be some issues with that that is wwhhy

whether in terms of organized mass killngs or leading people to battle central govt. or ignoring rise of drug menace etc...who has done the most damage? what do you think? 1. Intoxicants/Drugs 2. Khalistan demand/Khalistanis e.g. Sant Bhindranwale 3. Indian government 4. Dera culture 5. Punjab police under KPS Gill 6. Akali Dal (Badal) 7. Congress party

excellent discussion! especially liked N30S1NGH and 11Gurus1jot! I heard an elderly sikh saying that women are still not allowed and were not allowed because of things like menstrual periods(apologies to the sisters reading this, but!) and the cleanliness related to that . I'm not sure. No doubt "Moneh" can be good at heart but becoming a "real" good sikh at heart is more difficult that keeping the "outer" appearance. If they are so keen why not atleast do the easiest thing and "keep outer appearance" as they say being good at heart is required bay akal purkh.

11Gurus1jot veer ji NOBODY has the correct number. even Khalra commission (estimated 12-15K)came up with a figure from one area only. have you thought why were they killed? who started those mass killings? why were they done at that particular time? Do you know how many of our veers are still in jails in India e.g. Jaipur jail.i think we need to think logically when we demand Khalistan. This demand has isolated lots of sikhs and their genuine issues.

Sikhs were not killed in THOUSANDS before those years. They got butchered in thousands after these major historic events.who did most damage to the innocent sikhs (not with ak47's)? I hope that you understand that our LEADERSHIP (same point as Balait_da_Sher) took wrong decisions and got us killed in thousands ..... Sikhs got killed in thousands after attacks on Darbar sahib. Indira made a blunder but some mistakes were made from our side as well. general opinion which i have heard and kind of settles down in me as well -----Same kind of people are shouting Khalistan and will save themselves but get others killed....(maybe more those 12-15 thousand as said by Khalra commission). If you think Indian govt killed those 15 thousand sikhs then think again as many "moderate"(sorry i have to use this word) believe Delhi wanted an excuse to overrun people and our holiest shrine and OUR people gave them that EXCUSE. whom should we blame? the repercussions were severe like a nuclear explosion and we are still suffering.

Let me make this clear- Ek0sikh didn't say this. but this is the general opinion these days except few hardliners who reiterate demand for khalistan. quotes from comman man in punjab- " we started with few issues but now we have more issues because one thing led to the other! both sides are guilty of taking wrong decisions which led to comman man suffering whether he was a farmer or a shopkeeper." "i don't want to open my doors in the middle of the night to someone who claims to be fighting for me and get in trouble" "Divisive thoughts are emerging from outside india only.99% people in punjab don't care about anything except leading a peaceful life." said by an senior adminstrator. "completely blame Bhindranwale for using sikhs holiest shrine to battle against Indian forces hurting sentiments across the globe then led to Killing of Indira and then led to mass killings in delhi and punjab? if Darbar sahib was not involved in this whole tussle then do you think someone would have killed Indira leading to delhi riots?" "Khalistan can survive without any help as we have our own agricultural land. what about travelling by air? would India allow us to do that through their boundary? what if they shot our planes? would we start a war with India?" "people who can't fit in the social or political structure and are desperate want a seperate nation." "Punjab has seen lots of development but there are still many issues. people have re-elected Badals as they have seen or done some good things for their area. you can't buy every vote. Panthic parties failed to even secure there deposits. what else shall i say?" "Khalisatan movement was led or controlled badly. there are lots of examples of violations of maryada in many villages or cities. what if different groups emerge again and start bloodshed? if khalistan is in trouble form withine then who will we ask for help? India? or pakistan?" "Sikhs are a minority and want peace with everyone. we have hindus and muslims living amongst us. they don't want to apply for visas to go to PATNA SAHIB or Nanded sahib like they do for nankana sahib and get treated badly by the authorities?" many more to come......

Many (moderate or non moderate) are against Khalistan because- 1. the sikh movement was not effectively controlled or led which led to comman man suffering either at the hands of PP or at the hands of "fake" khalistanis. 2. many believe that this all started with some demands e.g. anand karaj act, punjab waters etc but due to poor decisions taken by some leaders we have now more issues at our hands e.g. delhi riots/massacre all over india, large scale disappearances in punjab. for example- Stand off between Bhindrawale and Indira Gandhi @ the holiest Sikh Shrine led to Indira gandhi shot dead by sikh guards led to delhi riots led to thousands of innocents massacred!!!!! led to thousands of disappearances in Punjab state!!! one things leading to other and who is suffering? 3. Punjab suffered immensely during those days and people don't want those dark days to come back. Either it was fear of police or "fake"/true khalistanis knocking on their doors in the middle of the night leading to a full fledged encounter. 4. they believe khalistan is NOT a possibility in this day and age and will lead to blood shed or those residing in punjab. NOTHING WILL HAPPEN TO PEOPLE WHO SHOUT FROM ABROAD! when we had time to grab our share of land our leaders sold us to Nehru and others. 5. Just had a discussion with a retd Major gen Indian army- it is not easy to face them without proper training and resources. he said that if a group of people believe that can do that (obviously referring to Sant Bhidranwale) the end result will be more and more corpses being pulled out of debris. 6. Many believe they can solve many issues by sitting on table with the CENTRE (delhi govt). e.g. anand karaj act. they believe all the issues will be solved slowly but fighting against Indian govt. no question? Finally they don't trust people shouting Khalistan any more...mostly doing from foreign nations living luxirious life styles and trying to get others in front of the guns.

shortly with an advisory panel. i can't disclose more. I wish to speak out on core SIKH ISSUES. what should I tell them are the core sikh issues? e.g. justice for the victims of 84'riots. I have a long list but wish to get more information. could you please add issues "that you think are the most important" to the list? what do we want from Indian Govt? Ofcourse Khalistan, but...?

I would reiterate - target them young I believe we need to slowly SEEP into their system.How? Prepare youngsters to get into the administration. This will help you to make slow but REAL but REAL CHANGES in the Indian law. Make strong connection with the political parties/people back home who command respect in the society. This will increase your participation in working towards a better society. prepare/influence better candidates for MP MLA and even SGPC elections in your area. always stand up and show solidarity as in Rajoana case. Indirectly or directly pile up legal cases (whether its human rights or fae encounters) through high calibre advocates ON people like KPS Gill, Sumedh Saini- so that they get entangled in their own legal system. one case after the other........they shouldn't find relieve from court hearings. if you are financially strong its very easy to influence Badal and ask him to raise certain issues (aaram naal not with danda- he is old now). 100% true. ..................................................................................................................................................................................................................... For me Khalsa raaj will be ....................when comman man in Punjab will have a High court Judge who works based on sikh principles, a sikh police officer who works according to sikh principles and above all a sikh politician who works based on sikh principles. I think you don't need guns (although i like them) but sway publics opinion by rising these issues from every stage.

does he live in Punjab or Delhi?

my agenda is to make you guys remember KanwarPal singh Gill. In all whats happening people seem to have forgotten about him. he is the main culprit in what happened to lots of youngsters those days. He is ROAMING free. Is that book totally true? I strongly doubt it. those are his opinion but he is quoting lots of those things from actual FIRS by the villagers. Is that book somewhat i.e. 0.001% true? I feel there were people who just couldn't bear the power AK47 gave them and did wrong things OR maybe state sponsored people who were mistakenly thought to be heros of the movement had a different agenda. Whatever the reasons it brought shame to many innocent villagers. Not eveyone died for the cause Beant singh alone couldn't do what happened without KPS Gill. If Gill refused then things would have been different.

have you read this? i just did. http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publication/nightsoffalsehood/falsehood4.htm WHERE IS KPS GILL THESE DAYS? ............................................................................................................................................................................. FROM THE BOOK? The hypocrisy and cynicism of those who were trying to impose ‘Panthic codes’ on the Sikh masses on the threat of death can be judged by the example of some of their most important leaders. The Babbar Khalsa projected itself as the most severe, intensely disciplined, indeed, puritanical Sikh organisation among the militant groupings. Its chief, Sukhdev Singh Babbar, however, was discovered living in a palatial bungalow in Patiala under an assumed identity as a contractor, Jasmer Singh. Babbar had a wife and three children at his village in Dassuwal, Tarn Taran. But he shared his ‘White House’ in Patiala with Jawahar Kaur, herself a member of a group of devotional singers, the Nabhe Wallian Bibian Da Jatha, famed equally for their talent as for their piety; an illegitimate son had been born out of this liaison. The White House was estimated to have been constructed at a cost of over Rs 30 lakh in the end Eighties. Air conditioners, dish antennae, VCRs, colour televisions, sophisticated cameras, a micro oven and an expensive cooking range were some of the ‘modern amenities’ in the Patiala house. A substantial amount of jewellery and expensive clothes belonging to Jawahar Kaur, were also recovered. If further evidence of the ‘holy warrior’s’ inclinations was needed, video copies of blue movies were also found in the house. Sukhdev Singh owned another bungalow, the Pink House at Rajpura, and a third one in the Model Town area. In early 1991, Madha Singh, a "Lt. General" of the Babbar Khalsa, and his associate Inderjit Singh Sakhira, raped Sarabjit Kaur and Paramjit Kaur, the daughters Harbhajan Singh Jat of Sirhali and subsequently abducted and forcibly married them. This was Madha Singh’s third ‘marriage’. Jaspal Singh Bhuri, a "Lt. General" of the KCF, abducted an 18 year old girl, Beant Kaur of Manochahal village in December 1990. She was kept in captivity for over four months, and was ‘used’ to satisfy the lust of various gang members. In April 1991 she was released. However, Bhuri followed her to her village and forced her to consume cyanide, because he felt she would damage his group’s reputation. Sukhdev Singh ‘Sukha Sipahi’, alias ‘General Labh Singh’, the then KCF Chief, had developed a relationship with a married woman, Surjit Kaur, the wife of Gurdip Singh Thekedar. In July 1988, suspecting her ‘fidelity’, he and his associates gave her a severe beating and set her house on fire. Sukhdev Singh was later killed in a police encounter. His nephew, Paramjit Singh Panjwar, and an associate, Jagjit Singh Billa, believing the woman had acted as a police informer, killed her in October 1989. Panjwar subsequently became the Chief of the KCF [Panjwar] group. He acquired a large bungalow in one of Delhi’s upmarket colonies and took up residence there under an assumed identity as Partap Singh. He had also acquired a brick kiln in Ghaziabad, and had invested a large chunk of looted money in the transport business. He ‘owned’ a half share in a rice shelling mill in Jhabal, and had forcibly occupied some 20 acres of land in the same area. One of his close associates, Harminder Singh Sultanwind, a member of Dr Sohan Singh’s ‘Panthic Committee’, had ‘kept’ a married woman, the sister of another top terrorist Baghel Singh Dehriwal who had been killed, at a bungalow in Chandigarh. He owned a fleet of cars and had ‘invested’ Rs 10 lakh with a brick kiln owner of Majhita. Satnam Singh Chinna, chief of the BTFK, had ‘acquired’ a 50 acre farm in the Puranpur district of Pilibhit in Uttar Pradesh, and had a large kothi constructed at Delhi. He had killed half a dozen of his close associates when they had demanded a share in the money looted by the group. He had two wives, and illicit relations with the wife of a certain Roshan Lal Bairagi, another girl named Pinki, and a third woman in Mannawala village in Ajnala. A particularly brutal character was Sukhinder Singh ‘Gora’, the Deputy Chief of the KCF[W], who, in the first quarter of 1991 alone, raped and murdered Jatinder Kaur, the wife of Jagir Singh Mazhbi, Satya, the wife of Ajit Singh Jat, both residents of Enkot village. In the second quarter of 1991, he abducted and raped Anup Kaur, the daughter of Surjit Singh, a retired Subedar living in Dialgarh village. In October the same year, he and his associates kidnapped two girls, Paramjit Kaur and Pinder Kaur, from Bujian Wali village and raped them. Some time later, they kidnapped a young girl, Sukhi of Manan village, and raped and killed her. Another prominent terrorist, Balwinder Singh Shahpur, the Chief of the Dashmesh Regiment, virtually made rape his primary occupation and had ravished more than 50 girls in the Sathiala-Batala area. These are only a handful of instances of the more prominent terrorists, based only on reported offences; most crimes by these men, however, will never have been mentioned by their victims - that is the essence of terror. Inevitably, their example was enthusiastically followed by what was at one time up to a three thousand strong terrorist force backed by an even larger number of unlisted criminals ravaging the entire Punjab countryside. As early as January 1989, their activities were causing deep alarm even within militants ranks, and the Old Panthic Committee issued a statement that those who were killing people in connection with land disputes and extortion, and who were committing ‘other acts’ that brought the movement into disrepute were in no way helping the Khalistan movement. They also appealed to Sikh masses not to give shelter to ‘such elements’ as they were ‘defaming the struggle started by the Damdami Taksal.’ But given their record of its own top leadership, this call had a hollow ring. In any event, the real power was in the hands of those who had the guns; there was no organisational authority above the roving terrorist gangs in Punjab. .........................................................................................................................................................................................................

excellent post!

singh559 you're right. wjkk wjkf to you and family! yes a very small world these days. hope to meet you soon.

he is summoned for the time being (May 10)! let's see what his reply will be? if he appears before Bhatinda court get ready for a big news.

Gurbani is supreme. Becoming a true Khalsa is the highest of high thrones one can get. Taking pride and Letting your mother tongue live/progress is part of the philosophy.

Bathinda court summons Dera Sacha Sauda chief Gurdeep Singh Mann/TNS Bathinda, April 2 The court of Chief Judicial Magistrate today summoned Dera Sacha Sauda chief Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh in a case of allegedly hurting Sikh community’s sentiments by wearing clothes similar to Sikh Guru Gobind Singh. A case was registered against the dera head on May 20, 2007 at the Kotwali police station on the complaint of Rajinder Singh Sidhu, president, Khalsa Diwan Gurdwara Singh Sabha. Taking cognisance of the case and not agreeing with the earlier cancellation report of the FIR filed by the police, CJM Harjeet Singh summoned the dera head to appear before the court on May 10. Heavy police force was deployed around the court complex and in the city in the wake of dera chief’s case hearing today. Sidhu said he was satisfied with the decision of the court which came after four years of long wait. He said it was now up to the dera head to respond to the court orders. ................................................................................................................................................................................. by the way ....my mama ji is not the Dera chief? great news!

I agree that MOST of the chardi kala singhs are living abroad and agree that they have great "junoon" and intellect. But it is SAD(not shromani akali dal badal) to note that for the MOST of them their PUNJABI speaking skills are EXTREMELY POOR. I was watching a programme live from Darbar Sahib with Gyani Vedanti and the Singh asking questions to Gyani ji was speaking utterly poorly. It is a shame that some of the British born sikhs can't speak punjabi fluently and they talk a lot about Khalistan. French, German, Russian and so many others take pride in their language. that doesn't mean they don't know English. I think this shows that we are still "gulam" somewhere. I am not asking to stop speaking English altogether. Do's speak english at work or with colleagues. speak english with englishman/women. speak english when you are representing matters to the MPs or the parliament. Don'ts speaking english when sitting with Punjabis speaking english when on SIKH channel speaking english when you are actually discussing sikh issues with your OWN people. Often the argument against is- that they want to reach to the youngsters who can't read/understand or write punjabi. if you carry on reaching out to them in english they won't learn punjabi. If they can't even learn and speak punjabi then that is a SHAME.

I think you need to set-up govt in exile (hellllloooooo where are the old khalistanis?)...... it should start with International Sikh Council proposing names of learned sikh scholars/intellectuals for different positions to start with. the berths should be given on merits openly. they could have people in the ministry from any country. they need to declare a city as capital in exile and work from there. They will have to work using other currencies for the time being. They need to start taxing(registered) each sikh proposing Khalistan to start buidling a huge pot for the quam. (this is the most difficult? because .....you know) They need to send envoys or representatives in country to represent sikh nation who will be given authority to initiate a dialogue with that nation on behalf of Khalistan. are you interested ? i can tell you more. this model is based on Tibetan struggle but differs on several strands.

BECAUSE in those times the government were not too clever to mis-represent or inglorify the actions of sikh warriors to the outer world OR maybe the media was not there or controlled by the government. There were less clever stratgists thinking how to MALIGN others e.g. placing liquor bottles room no 14 Darbar sahib?, intruding khalistani groups disguised as sikh warriors and raping innocents i.e. KPS Gills formula etc. all these led to difference in opinion of the general public who can't intellectually judge things but believe what someone reports/or tells them.

Punjab police recruits majority- from our sikh population. they are trained hard. even for the constable job you need to be extremely fit.Have you seen the recruitment rallies? for example 100m in about 13/14 seconds etc. just an example PP commandos do 24/25 kms cross country even other week. I know most of the high ranking officials have big tummies but they used to be fit once. Have you ever visited one of the commando training facilities? They don't have big GYM muscles but have longlasting stamina. By the way I am not praising PP here. Just telling you what they are made of. they are from amongst us. as far as the high ranking e.g. DSP etc are concerned because they are directly recruited via PPSC they come mostly through bribes and knowhows e.g. Gurdaspur SSP is son-in-law of a close confidante of senior Badal. The only way is deal with PP is raising awareness towards sikhi and its principles. How? I believe each sikh knows 1-2 PP back in punjab be it at the senior level or at the junior level. reach out to them. explain and educate them. the same applies to Army personnel. To obtain Khalsa raj we need (i.e. even the panthic parties or organisations) to sympathise with the problems and issues that PP faces e.g. pressure from politicians, lower wages, long duty hours (you won't believe how long they can be deloyed in some cases continously for hours and hours), untimely transfers, broken families because of job transfers etc. this way we will have more SYMPATHY in PP THAN EVER. this doesn't mean sympathise with HIGH ranking DGP's, DSP's, SSP's. You have to break the chain of command i.e. dissociate lower ranks who are in majority from the top ranking officials who are less in numbers but do MORE wrong things.

if you want to honour him...........honour all those sikhs in the army who refused to fire towards or inside Sri Darbar sahib? Honour those policemen who luckily or unluckily didn't fire and killed more like Bhai Jaspal? they deserve something from sikh panth too. don't they. Maybe Jakhar was scared from the backlash that would have taken place in case he hanged Bhai Balwant. when you don't know the inside story don't start giving "siropas" to people. sorry if i am being rude.