SinghWarrior

Who said anything about reviving the Kharkoo movement? Fact is, Badal is denying the very basic of human rights to practising Sikhs. Driven by desperation and lack of justice by the executive, legislative and judicial branches of authority, some people may feel compelled to take justice in their own hands. But, what do you do when faced by a tyrant, who pretends he is running a democracy? (a) Sit back and do nothing, whilst continuing to watch the desecration of our history, culture and institutions? (b) Raise a peaceful and political campaign, but get thrown in prison and tortured as soon as you begin to get politically popular? ( c) Resort to Kharkoo movement? Some feel, given (a) and (b), they have no resort but to follow ( c). ( c) is not ideal by any stretch of the imagination and I'm not advocating it at all, but, as per Guru Gobind Singh Ji's instructions, when ALL peaceful means have failed, there is a point reached when it is righteous to draw the sword. Like I said, I have full faith Satgur Ji will do Mehar and Dushts like Badal will face justice in Lok and Parlok.

I for one will jump on you. How the likes of Pala Singh are mercilessly tortured in prisons on Badal's instructions is an outright travesty of justice. Pala Singh is/was a simple folk parchaarik, who the public connected with, and who irked SGPC members because they couldn't handle the truth of him exposing SGPC corruption. There was not a thread of any militancy in him whatsoever. Basically, any Gursikh who meaningfully opposes Badal is picked up, thrown in prison and tortured, because Badal is scared of the awakening of the Khalsa Panth. Satgur Ji will do Mehar and Dushts like Badal will face justice in Lok and Parlok. Khalsa spirit can never be subdued.

India has just awarded France a contract worth around £40 billion to build nuclear power stations. If Manmohan Singh insisted strongly enough, I'm sure the French would have given Sikhs an exemption on the French religious head-coverings law. Simple representations from the Foreign Affairs Minister are not enough - Sarkozy just fobbed these off. As regards Italy, from the UK Singhs discussing the issue on a European level, I understand the Indian govt's input is more a hindrance than assistance on getting the right result. Yet again, both BJP/Akali Dal and Congress are more interested in political point scoring, than getting justice for Sikhs.

He did admittedly sing some dodgy lyrics, but one dhaarmik geet tune of his sticks to my mind: "Sun Sarkaar Ni Panjaab Vich Khalsae Da Raaj Aagiya". Released at the top of Punjab Police tyranny on Sikhs in the '80's, I'm told by elders that it galvanised the Punjabi/Sikh youth against the oppression they were facing. Singing such a Pro-Khalistani song at the time was very risky for his own personal life - credit where credit's due.

GPS - are you suggesting praise for Badal? He has been complicit with, if not partly responsible for, the third Sikh genocide in our lifetimes, which led to death of tens of thousands of Sikhs. He can go on all he wants about previous genocides, but it doesn't cloud the fact that he is anti the Panthic interest. All these actions are political manoeuvring due to upcoming elections.

Says on the final page of the flyer, live broadcast on: www.jawadditaksal.org and www.vismaadnaad.org

Well said. Sant Ji was the perfect role model, in every aspect - Gristhi life, Sant life and Sipahi life. To DataSingh - I can imagine Sant Ji would have told you to man up and read certain Banis. I can't go into the in-depth bachans of what Gyani Thakur Singh Ji said about Sant Ji on this issue, but basically, Singhs back in the day had issues where they weren't able to lead a Gristhi life despite being married. On Sant Ji's bachans, they did Jaap of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - Chritiropakhiyaan, and Waheguru Ji did Kirpaa, and those Singhs led normal family lives.

There's one Amritdhari GurSikh participating I understand.

I believe Sant Ji's sons were born before Sant Ji got given Sevaa of Taksaal. After being given Jathedaari, they were fully committed to Panthic Seva.

The reality is that BBC Asian Network is not seriously looking to debate an issue in good faith. It wants to sensationalise issues, at the expense of Sikhs, to get people listening to its shows. Our experience shows this happening repeatedly. If they wanted proper debate, they know who to contact (i.e., Sikh Federation in this case, given that they put out the original Press Release). It just shows Nihal's bad faith when he fails to notify GurSikh organisations, but he always resort to bringing on the plonkers who continually give him the answers he knows will sensationalise the issue exactly as he wants. In this case, we can try to phone in off our back individually but longer term, we need to liaise more effectively at a higher level in the BBC, over the head of Nihal and his producer team.

Generally, agree with the very valid points made. BUT, just because Jathedaar's are more prominent on Sangat TV, doesn't necessarily mean it is silent on '84 issues, pro-Badal Dal, etc. Although Sikh Channel may be more prominent in having '84 programmes, actually LAST NIGHT, there was an extremely informative discussion hosted by Ranjit Singh Rana (often - wrongly in my view - accused of being a Badal puppet) with Paramjit Singh Ghazi, President of AISSF. They openly discussed '84, and the current, seemingly nefarious nexus between Badal and Sant Samaj, and also the negative role of Badal in Panthic Veechar and progress. This has happened on other occasions too. What I'm saying is, it's easy to make allegations that Sangat TV are pro-Indian govt/Badal, but the reality is very different. Although there may be some individuals that are secretly pro-Badal, the truth is often that things are often more black and white than people like to admit. Chalo - Satgur Mehar Karan

Whilst I agree with your points, the approach SangatTV have taken is quite different. They are not making ridiculous appeals for cash regularly, seemingly giving the European Sangat guilt trips to stop the channel closing down. I understand SangatTV generally rely on a few "rich" individuals to fund the channel, and their income and operating costs are therefore a lot lower. Given the income going in, the relative output isn't so bad (arguably, it's quite good!). On the other hand, I understand Sikh Channel is getting donations of up to £50-60k/month. A massive sum, and whilst their quality of programs is better, this can only be expected. The issue is whether they should be extracting even more value out for the sangat, given their income from sangat donations? The competition is a good thing. Previously, Sikh Channel wanted between £3,000-4,000 to do live broadcasts. Sangat TV's arrival saw Sangat TV capable of doing live broadcasts for £300. Mysteriously, Sikh Channel are now also able to do a live broadcast for about the same amount. Both channels are spurring each other to improve/do better. This is good, so long as they avoid having cat-fights, like they did a few months ago. I'm also not seeking to have a dig at either channel, just trying to put things in perspective. PS - about their EPG not being updated, I've actually complained in person to one of their lead Sevadaars of Sangat TV, but to no avail!!! Apparently, it can be quite expensive to get this updated, so this may be an area where they prefer to save on costs.

Absolute joke! Have any Scotland Singhs approached the committee? You wonder why some people choose to be Gurdwara committee members! :angry2:

Sachseeker - If there's real Beadbi going on, why don't you take responsibility to sort it out? If you have an issue with the committee, how can YOU work towards resolving it? Satkaar is everyone's duty, is it not? Why are you looking to others to step up? You clearly seem to be in the know as to what's going on, and you have an issue - that's why you keep bumping this thread. In anycase, have you even phoned the Singhs up to give your side of the story? The number's on the bottom of the post.

Well let's hope that this is the start of a moral conscience awakening in India. All minorities deserve justice, including the Sikhs for the '84 genocide.

From what I gather, one of the main policemen responsible for the atrocities, Sumedh Saini, is currently being given patronage by Parkash Badal (as per letters of Prof Bhullar Ji's mother) and is in line to be the next DGP. His actions led to his promotion. Artmental is right - the foot soldiers are (rightly) being punished, but those that orchestrated the entire events are still given political patronage.

Not a go at anyone particular individual, but we (including me) have a tendency to all sit back on beadbi issues, and hope others take the matter on. Everyone is looking to Satkaar these days to sort issues out, when in fact each one of us has a duty to stand up for satkaar issues.

Fair comment GurSa Singh but we, as "Panth-Dardi" next generation Sikhs, will have to get involved ourselves to resolve these issues. We can't blame the elders when there is a vacuum and no-one is willing to step in. The status quo will continue unless others make a conscious effort to move things forward. That's the bottom up approach. On the other hand, SCUK need to really seek out and involve the naujawaan that can make a real difference - the top down approach. We desperately need both.

I've raised some very basic questions. I don't claim to know any answers. The way things have panned out over the last 2 months, I doubt Sikh Channel thought about them, nor did Sangat TV. I'm not suggesting D-Day was a flop - it seems to have been a success as it galvanized awareness of the issue. But at what cost? Disunity amongst our media and in our Panth? How influential will D-Day ultimately have been in swaying politicians to our cause? Will it have been counterproductive? Were the means employed proportionate to achieve the desired outcome, assuming the desired outcome was achieved? What was the desired outcome? The latter 4 questions - you have to rely on the experience of those actually having the discussions with the politicians. Sikh Channel are not qualified to make those judgements, and they chose not to follow the advice of those that were having the political discussions. The whole point of making the Sikh Council UK was that you would have a representative and qualified group of people leading on these decisions for the Panth. Too often in the past you have had one Jatha/group that has taken actions without consulting the wider Panth - for example, we have a precedent against us (dastaar case) in the European Court of Human Rights on a case that was legally very weak. This will stand against us forever. Quite literally, we have shot ourselves there in the foot, and this is a hindrance to future legal actions. This case was led by an individual with limited support without consulting the wider Panth. As an already small community, we can only truly be effective if we are united. With this feeling of empowerment from D-Day, I hope we work to further strengthen and participate in our existing institution (SCUK) so that we can successful and strategic in the future!

What might be good in galvanizing the general Sikh public might actually set us back vis-a-vis 3rd party actors (e.g. Italian govt). What might seem like short term victory or publicity might set us back over the longer term, if we have happened to upset the Italian govt. I think the point the Jathebandiaan are making is (as Jagtar Singh seems to suggest) we need to work out what we consider as success, and how we measure it? Also, how do other minorities go about achieving their rights? Can we learn from them? Importantly, how do the Jews achieve their influence? Strategically, is what we want a BBC headline or a change in EU law or govt policy? If the latter, which i suspect is the case, what's the best way to achieve it? What are the impediments to us achieving success? Will it play into our enemy's hands (I.e., anti- Sikh groups such as RSS or Congress Party) if we play all our cards in public so that they know what we're up to? We need to wise up on our game if we think protests/rallies alone will win us our rights. Sometimes, they may be counterproductive in certain cases. Sometimes we need to trust the Singhs that are, and have been for 25 years, at the forefront of the battle so that we don't repeat the sane mistakes over and again. If we need to galvanize our community behind a cause, then we need to find alternative effective ways of spreading awareness. Perhaps the major lesson for the Jathebandiaan is to re-connect and engage with grassroots Sangat (much like political parties across the world aim to do) so that they appreciate all the effort and hardwork that the Jathebandiaan put in, and so that they understand the benefit of approaching things more strategically?

Good work SCUK. It seems the assumption wrongly made by many was that Friday's release was related to the Sikh Channel/Sangat TV spat, when it was in fact to pre-empt the actions by the Indian High Commission. Is this correct?

It was IPD reps at Singh Sabha Derby and GTBG Leicester that tried to cause issues on stage for Sant Ranjit Singh Ji. Baba Ji gave full responses there and then on stage. All IPD has done is cause splits and problems since it was established in the UK, and they seem to have no clear strategic goals other than this. if Baba Baljit Singh has genuine dardh for the Panth, he should at once disassociate himself from such trouble-makers in the UK.

Good suggestion Pyara in your final para above. Sometimes what may seem like blatant incompetence may actually be the best and sincere efforts of our elders, simply due to the resources they know how to utilize. If we want to change things, we have to grab the bull by it's horns. I genuinely believe that naujawaan too easily walk away when the going gets a bit tough. If the elders mentioned have let us down in the past, it's up to us naujawaan to create the next generation of leaders, which can work collaboratively with the elders, but in the direction we want.

Well said Aman001. I competely agree. It's disgraceful that you have people on here attacking the integrity of the likes of Gurmel Singh, who has collaboratively gelled the most diverse, democratic and representative sikh body in the uk. This organization might not be perfect (I think it should take the lead in all Satkaar issues, which it currently doesn't), and it has shortcomings (e.g., communication with Sangat), but if there's anyone here that can help them do better, please prove it. YOU can join SCUK before their AGM on 1st October.

Fact of the matter is, my experience tells me (having dined with the likes of David Cameron and George Osborne), informal dinners are a much more effective way of communicating and lobbying with politicians. Most Gora MPs may feel uncomfortable in Gurdwaras, but they need to be relaxed and so that they can loosen their guard. Sikhs need to be smart about these things. Learn off the Jews, the Indian government and how big business, etc., lobby very successfully in our daily lives. PS - I very much doubt Dr Rai, or other Sevadaars, expense the Sangat for this type of dinner. I certainly don't!