pedrorizzo

Would you useful if someone could post on how to properly sharpen a sword to get it razor sharp

I think the real lesson to be learned here is how blunt our kirpans are.

Last year we had 4 UK Sikhs trying to cut the throat of Gen. Brar with a kirpan that turned out to be as blunt as a children's toy sword.

Now we have dozens of people visibly hacking away at each other's body parts with long swords resulting in relatively minor injuries.

I think the world, and that includes right wing hindus and muslims, can clearly see that our kirpans are actually as lethal as a freshly baked baguette.

LOL very true. Although we should be counting our lucky stars that the swords were not sharp. Can you imagine that in the media? People getting chopped in half and limbs rolling around the Parikarma. People are dissing the swordsmanship and ability of the Singhs to fight etc. Might be unfair based on this video. After all it was a spontaneous outburst rather than a pre-planned battle. Plenty of people trying to step in and stop it and even the participants would be showing some restraint knowing deep down that they were misbehaving in a holy place and fighting with their brothers. I doubt that they were intending to kill each other and use lethal force. After all even with a blunt sword they could still have chosen to stab each other but did not.

Probably they just had their ceremonial 3 ft from a bazaar near Amritsar and that was the only thing to hand. Regarding swordsmanship, and people running away etc - alot of people are dissing this. Now I aint standing up for them because they are a bunch of clowns for doing what they did but come on... what are people expecting? like bruce like moves or mask of zorro type of stuff? Anyone who has been in a full on brawl knows that this is how a real one looks like. Its always chaotic, messy and clumsy and people swing their weapons around and hack at each other.

Having said that, every Sikh should invest in a good quality sword and have it sharpened or learn how to get it razor sharp. Probably easier said than done as I havent got a clue lol.

At least they still keep their kesh and have some loyalty to Sikhi. A patka is a just a small keski after all, I dont really know what the big deal is. A patka takes about three seconds to put on compared to a dastaar which takes alot longer. It is more secure, more practical, more comfortable and less likely to fall off when doing physical activity or in a fight for example.

Dont get me wrong, the dastaar is what it should be. Dastaar is the crown of a Sikhi and looks better. However, peoples reasons for choosing to wear a patka from a practical perspective does not seem absurd to me.

SHAME ON NIIHAL AND THE SO CALLED BBC ASIAN NETWORK - SCUM

Singh

Answer my question please - can you confirm if the guys who were stabbed up were Paedo groomers or were they randoms?

Pakiz were charged regarding a case that is several weeks old and it was done purely to pacify the tensions in leicester - arrest some Singhs and arrest some Muslims, this how these situations work. We will see what happens to them in the trial - that will be the true test. Are you able to confirm to me that the guys who were stabbed up were paedo groomers? Or were they just at the wrong place at the wrong time?

What a load of rubbish I am hearing. The scum bags that went into attack the restaurant are at worst violent thugs and at best, misguided youth who have been manipulated and brainwashed into doing this.

Isnt it funny how Mohan Singh comes to Derby and Leicester, winds up all the local youth and is then nowhere to be seen, whilst its only the AKJ boys from Derby who get arrested and take the flak from the authorities - all young lads in their early twenties. Not only will they get beats from their parents, they will also get beats from the Derby Gurdwara guys and everyone will distance themselves away from them. When they end up locked up, they will be deserted by all and helped by noone... their families will pick up the pieces. Criminal records, jail time, no job prospects, living hand -to-mouth and everyone keeping their distance - living a life of regret.

Some of you jokers have the gall to praise them and their actions and turn it into some kind of heroic battle of the Khalsa. Wow.... how low we have indeed become. Since when has taking a crew of 40 guys down to a restaurant full of innocent diners and stabbing up a few waiters and chefs been heroic? Its sad and its weak.

Sikh youth of today are out of control. Being played like puppets and sent like lambs to the slaughter. Souring race relations, community relations, police relations like self destructive suicide bombers... and the worst part is that it is all done in the name of SIKHI and presented as a great and glorious thing. What an absolute disgrace. This whole thing was orchestrated on the basis of rumours and Mohan Singhs usual emotionally manipulative and rabble rousing propoganda.

If you hard men are that desperate for Muslim blood, why not go to Alum Rock Sparkhill or Bradford and try your hand against the <banned word filter activated> there. These things escalate into a downward spiral with lots of innocent people getting caught up, hurt, locked up and even killed. If you smash one of their restaurants, they will come and smash three of ours. They outnumber us in Britain by 4-1 and they run the street scene in most of the major towns. These ostentatious displays of aggression are not very clever at all. If it has to be done at all then it should be quiet, clinical, specific and targeted rather than going off like a car bomb with all its collateral damage.

Yes grooming is an issue. The best way to tackle this is to educate the girls, raise awareness. Very Simple. If you want to target the gangs - do some private investigative work - film them with secret cameras, bug them, send in girls as spies etc and gather the EVIDENCE and get it to the police so that they can build a rock solid bulletproof case to get these fools behind bars. Use brain power!

I'll attach the e-books you do the googling.

http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/411657/workoutstuff.zip'>http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/411657/workoutstuff.zip

New about it in grade 9 did once or twice in summer, got caught up in hood..

Fast forward 2-3 years close to 275+ was 182ish last month now 205+ but look skinner ( :toohappy: )

Right now last time I went to gym was dec. 4th, will go proly next week?? Maybe later..

U start off 2x a week, and yea read the book. Goes against everything but sitting next to people who go regularily I am growing faster despite seeing like a lazy khota.

diet:

Protein, grains are bad avoid them but don't have an unhealthy relationship with food. I'm eating some oreos or sum ish right now. At the start of losing weight I watched it watched it, but grocery stores here suck so I get 'food' (w.e) so I eat cuz I'm hungry all the time now but I wasn't before.

Get .6-1+ g per kg of body weight protein per day. I recommend canadianprotein.com as you can get it in bulk the cheapest price and last time I ordered at ~10pm and got it around 2 pm the next day so less than 24hr. They in Windsor I'm in Toronto.

Vitamins:

Centrum forte, b100, 2x omega 3 just because I didn't use to eat veges a lot now I do, but b100 makes me feel nice. :D

Cardio:

I don't do it, cardio burns muscle but I got a battery bike now so I travel and pedal places but that's been not long.

Can I do this?

Yes you can, if you come in here and argue blah blah this won't work, um..

Your ignorance is your own strength.

--

Files: and Variations I have made:

I had an old zip I think I just rezipped the folder, I may have my old workout charts in there ignore the retarded bs I write those are my notes:

The book will tell you workout a and b, I split legs into c because 3-4 months ago I couldn't finish all of b due to Central Nervous System Exhaustion.

You will have stronger legs because you are black, so except to be gaining 1-200 each on a leg per workout. You will probably have to do split as well.

edit - Ok, had to use file hosting site will put link at top of post.

Why am I doing this? --

Just came off 2 years of house arrest/jail time in august, turning my life around, service to Every1?? :lol:

Yall know the rest..

Wjk Wjf

Yeh I've heard of this static contraction training. Does it really work. Could you post your strength figures please and have you tested your full range motion strength ie 1 rep bench etc? Do you have any before and after photos.

Thanks bro.

Regards

Wjkkwjkf

More sanatan mumbo jumo being embraced by taksalis and nihangs to overcomplicate and dilute our simple and straight forward religion....

I think the line 'vadda na hoveh kaath na jai' comes to mind. Guru ji is beyond both praise and slander and doesnt need pathetic beings like us to protect its honour, if that is even possible.

Lets face it, people who do this kind of thing are simply trying to provoke. If they get the reaction that they are looking for then they have won and we have lost. Dont give them the satisfaction. Our enemies have long used our affection for the Guru as a weapon with which they can manipulate us and control our behaivour. We should not let them do this and stay in complete control of our emotions.

Unfortunately. taking revenge is something that usually backfires badly and the whole community has to suffer as a result

Excellent idea. All of the major Gurughars in India also have guards with lathis and other shastar. It was guards such as these that fought off repeated mob attacks at Rakab Ganj Sahib and Sis Ganj Sahib in the1984 Dehli riots.

All Gurughars, no matter how small, should be well guarded.

Well done to the Singhs who are taking the initative in this respect.

Good points, however, be careful who you touch your moustache in front of. It can be regarded as aggressive male behaviour in certain sections of our community and could easily cause offence, and if you are not careful, a physical confrontation

GS Mann Sir, can you give any more details about the Sikh musuem in the mids,i havent heard anything about it.

http://www.nationalsikhmuseum.com/

It is based in Derby next to Singh Sabha Gurdwara. Lots of Sikh artefacts including cannons from Maharajah Ranjit Singhs reign, shastars, pictures, slide shows etc. Worth a visit.

Please enlighten all the many thousands of Sikhs around the world that believe Bhai Balwant Singh should be the next Jathedar what these leadership skills should be. Every supporter of Balwant Singh hangs on every word they utter rather than the current leaders who are mere puppets of the Badal sarkar. Someone who guides and inspires other can be classified as a leader and Bhai Sahib has managed to do that through his letters. If he was provided with a platform to speak on openly, many more will be willing to follow him. It is due to their Bhagti of 14-16 hours per day, that the whole of the panth became united in such a short space of time.

I'd like to see how chardikala you would be and whether you'll even be able to speak if you was about to be hanged.

The individual should be balanced, mature, professional, diplomatic and appeal to a cross section of people in the Panth, not just the Kharku supporters. They should also be respected and have the ability to deal with other nations and other communities. They need to have a very good understand of politics, history, law and of the economy, or, at the very least have access to a good team of people around him that can give that advice.

At present, Rajoana, has demonstrated that he is a good fighter, fearless, has a good physical presence, good Sikhi jeevan and charisma and is able to inspire people via his letters from Jail, certainly within the context of Shaheedi etc. He has some leadership attributes. However, to be convinced of his suitability, I would want to see his skills in diplomacy, his vision for Sikhs and the Panth, his knowledge and ability regarding politics, history, law... His ability to analyse, work in a team and his ability to handle sensitive matters in a mature manner.

At present, he has convinced a section of the Sikh community that he should be made jathedar... mainly Kharku-supporters, Taksalis and Khalistan activists. However, if wants to be jathedar, he still needs to convince the moderate Sikh majority that he is the man for the job, not to mention the SGPC and the Akali Government, who will not let anyone in there that they deem to be a threat to the stability and uneasy peace that already exists in Punjab. Rajoana will be seen in my circles as a terrorist. He is hated by Hindus and many urbanite Sikhs. He will need to prove that he is a peaceful man and not a hardliner. He will also need to be let out of jail, in order that he can properly do his job as a Jathedar.

Basically, I believe that it is totally impossible for Rajoana to be made jathedar because the things that I have mentioned simply will never happen. You might as well give up on this silly campaign now. Rajoana will never be released from jail. He will never be accepted as a Sikh leader by the majority of the community unless he compromises on certain things that make him who he is, which of course he will never do. He will never be allowed to be jathedar by the SGPC and Akali Dal because he would have to compromise on certain things which again he would never do. He would also have to be released from jail, which, would never be allowed either by the Badals, the SGPC, and nor by the Hindus of India that would not want to see him released. He doesnt not have the educational background, nor the knowledge of history, politics and law, nor does he have the skills of diplomacy.

I respect Rajoana for what he did to Beant. I respect him for his Sikhi asools and for inspiring/waking up Sikhs. However, he is not the right man for the Jathedar post or any other leadership position, certainly regarding a post that represents the whole community. He could take up a seat with say Simranjit Singh Manns group or Dal Khalsa or something like that, but not a position like Akal Takhat Sahib jathedar. There are too many influential people that would not let it happen and there are not enough people that support him in the way that you think they do. You are overestimating his popularity and his support.

Rajoana should be respected for what he did and it should just be left at that.

Regarding your last point, I never said that I wanted to be a leader or Akal Takhat Sahib Jathedar. And you are right, I probably wouldnt be as fearless and enthusiastic about being hanged as Bhai Rajoana is.

You never answered my question about your allegations on Daduwaal wale

You accuse the youth of arrogance and hot-headedness, when your condescending posts display this exact approach. This is not limited to the Vaisakhi event, but a much wider issue: youth will continually be critical when they see their leaders selling out on Sikhi-principles for a "political" game. This is the whole problem - the leaders are engaging in political games with each other to get one over the other. From the outside, it all appears as displays of ego.

Also, if you lot project yourself as our leaders, the Sangat has every right to place demands on you. Don't complain when you can't handle criticism. The fact that you claim you are willing to work with the youth is a bit of a joke. How many Sikh, educated professionals are there under the age of 35/40 in SCUK? Fine - more youth should be willing to be pro-actively involved, but are the elders genuinely trying to blood the next generation? Course not. It's more about them staying at the forefront for as long as possible.

Another point - it's a function of the "political" games that are played amongst leaders promoting themselves/their organisations that is the EXACT reason why youth can't trust the elders to deal with the Panthic agenda with a straight bat. They are forever fearful of being used as a pawn in the ego-game of the leaders. This has happened to me when I've tried to get involved in organisations, even on the fringes, to do basic things.

See thats the problem with the youth. You guys are still stuck in the 1980s. The simplicity and directness that you are expecting from leaders simply does not exist. Unless that said individual is a hardliner, a purely religious leader or a bringer of revolution, they will not carry the simplicity and directness that you demand. Actually, that very simplicity and directness, will, in most situations make them a pretty poor leader. Accept it or not, politics is a game. It must be approached strategically and with tact. The fundamental difference between your views and mine is that you believe that the leaders 'play politics' to further their own ego and their own position. I believe that some of them do, yes, however, others play politics for the benefit of the Panth, and because that is simply what they have to do. You also have to strengthen your own position as a leader, before you can effect change. These are just very basic principles that the youth do not understand.

Although, it surprises me that the youth have the brains to know if they are being used as pawns or not in the 'ego-game' of leaders, then why do those same youth flock to hardliner leaders who inflame their passions and still use them as pawns to further their own extremist agenda?

Regarding SCUK, it is a ground-breaking achievement to unite the main Sikh jathebandis such as Federation, AKJ and the cross section of communities that would not otherwise engage such as the Ramgharias, Bhatras and Ravidassias. The purpose of SCUK is not to sit back and take the demands of hot-headed youth and to act them out. It is a national organisation that makes desicions that affect all Sikhs regardless of jathebandi. If you are not allowed to wear kakkars to work, this affects all Sikhs, regardless of whether you are Taksali, AKJ, Khalistani, Congress agent, Rajoana supporter or not. The SCUK was created to provided a national voice on lobbying and campaigning for issues that affect all Sikhs regardless of political affiliation. Because of the huge cross-section of people that it represents, its policies and desicion making must be carefully considered and be inclusive of everybody. For example, if it campaigned for Khalistan, which incidentally the Feds are already doing, then the Ramgharias and Ravidassias would pull out, making the national voice weak again.

The main obstacle to Panthic unity are the extreme views of individual jathebandia. The youth also play a huge part in this. The youth are so determined to bully forward their own agenda, they lose sight of all the other intricacies. There are several young, educated youth working in the Sikh Council. More are welcome and would be encouraged. Believe me when I say that many of the elders would prefer to step down now, if they could, with all of their other responsibilities and obligations. However, the maturity, worldliness, leadership and professional profile is not easily fourth coming from the youth right now.

If the youth can demonstrate the willingness and ability to do this kind of sewa, the SCUK, themselves would be stupid not to bring them in. After all, any organisation worth its salt wants young blood and SCUK is no different.

Regarding demands and criticism, of course these are welcome but they must take place through the correct channels and in the correct settings. Hijacking TV discussion programmes on Sikh Channel and bullying a certain agenda forward is not the way to go about it. You are just creating a wedge.

Regarding Daduwal, I cant provide you any evidence because I dont have his mobile phone full of dirty texts to and from girls and I have got the double page spread that the News of the World did about him regarding Human trafficking. Try the search button on Sikhsangat, Im sure you will find something. Very sorry I cant find you anything more.... you'll just have to call me a liar that is mudslinging because of a personal vendetta and leave it at that.

We can argue all day long but I really dont have time. My humble benti to the youth is, dont intentionally or un-intentionally engage in activities that create a wedge between themselves and the 'moderates' and between themselves and the elders. Be pro-active if you want to do sewa. Support the exisiting organisations and tactfully effect change from within if you think it is required. Lets stop mudslinging and try to come together and support each other.

Pedrorizzo,

Showmanship is not leadership. Any genuine sevadars who attended this event are clearly overshadowed by the self promoters plugging their own agendas in this so called networking exercise. I question whether the networking was for the Panth or was it too boost individual profiles.

In my simple pendoo world, I look up to the principled Sikh who sticks to his/her agenda.. not the one who goes to Downing Street to do Bhangra. Clearly that’s all your leaders think we’re good for. I wonder if anyone was willing to do join their hands in an Ardas in Downing Street seeing the event was to celebrate Vasaikhi, but bring on Channi Alaap and the Sikhs will join their hands to clap to the beat. You say there is a “time and place”, clearly this was seen as the time and place to Bhangra!

Well since you just labelled yourself as a simple pendoo, let me help educate you. In case you did not know Vaisakhi is also a cultural event that existed thousands of years before Sikhs ever did and is celebrated by all religions and not just Sikhs. And yes, although some of you have decided now that bhangra is against the Sikh religion and the root of all evil, I must regrettably inform you that traditionally bhangra is a musical/dance form that is performed at harvest time.

Also let me educate you about the fact that this event was not a religious event nor was it a panthic or protest event. It was a cultural Punjabi event to which prominent individuals from the Punjabi Community were invited. Not necessary leaders. People like Monty Panesar, for example, who is not a leader but a prominent personality. There was no Maharaaj's saroop present. No 'Sikh Leaders' were invited and neither were any Jathebandis. Individuals were invited, not the organisations that they represent.

Regarding your points about the motives of those who were present. It is an interesting point. Sure, some people may have been present to boost their own profile. Others may have used it as an opportunity to network with politicans to gain a foothold when delivering panthic agendas. Some people just came because they were just invited, others may have just wanted a photo with David Cameron.... the list goes on... Who knows what each persons individual motive was for accepting the invitation.

However, what I can tell you is that Sikhs have suffered from our inability to play the political game. It doesnt take a genius to work out that before you can make demands of the Government you have to develop relationships first and use your available channels. The fact is, this is the only second event of its kind to take place and happened through much persuasion. It is a positive step for Sikhs in terms of raising our game. This is the way that a panthic-minded Sikh who had been invited to this event would have seen it... purely as an opportunity to develop relationships that will benefit the Panth.

Now, sure, there may be a wide variation in thoughts and motives. I cant speak on behalf of say Monty Panesar or Channi from Alaap, for example.

So I know that as a simple pindu who is more accustomed to sitting on the sidelines, making stupid jokes, criticising and leg pulling you probably cant help yourself. However, why dont you just reflect on yourself a little bit and think about what impact your negative, critical attitude has on Panthic development and if it actually helps progress in any way?

I've personally never advocated leadership of Daduwaal Wale. However, you make grave personal allegations against him. Care to offer any solid evidence, or is this further mud-slinging in this thread?

Rajoana speaks the truth. The truth causes revolutions. This is what our Gurus did - Aad Sach Jugaad Sach, Hae Bhi Sach, Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach.

A lot of "nutters" as you term them see Sikh leadership of constantly selling out on Sikhi asools, most often for preservation of their individual Kursis. This is why youth are disheartened. It's easy for the elders to tarnish the youth as hot-heads, but the truth is that many making the complaints have much intellectual capacity and the "nutters" are also are very active in Sevaa. All this will surprise you no doubt. But the nutters don't like putting themselves on a pedestal for a personal Kursi.

What it seems SCUK has degenerated into is another status quo organisation that preserves the existing things that are wrong. What differentiates "hot-head nutters" is that they are happy to publicly disagree with the elders and will continue to be vocal in making their points. Elders don't like this as it challenges their authority. Elders need to realise that every "hot-head nutter" does not have anything personally against the elders, but they DEFINITELY disagree with the approach elders take on certain issues. Part of this approach is doing back-room deals with others, instead of making oneself openly accountable in front of the Sangat.

Elders and leaders of jathebandia, sometimes make deals and compromises because sometimes that is what is required in politics. When dealing with sensitive matters, they must be approached carefully and strategically, knowing when to push up the intensity and when to back off. The elders and leaders sometimes make deals and compromises for the greater good and NOT to preserve their own seat. Most have done sewa all of their lives with full time jobs and families and spending money from their own pocket, which youth seem very reluctant to do these days but place a huge list of demands on everybody else apart from themselves.

Youth need to stop moaning and whining and placing huge demands on the leaders. I think that the leaders will be quite receptive if youth want to get involved provided they are calm and reasoned and behave like human beings rather than some kind of hooligan mob. Stop creating a wedge between yourselves and the elders through your own arrogance and hot-headedness.

Just to be clear.

i) I did not mention or criticise the Sikh Council UK (or any other Sikh organisation) - please look through the thread. You did however mention the Sikh Federation (UK) - Why. You mentioned 'members' of the Sikh Federation (UK) were present, but now say it does not have a proper membership. As you are unwilling to point to any named individuals on this forum please email info@sikhfederation.com which can then deal directly with the Sikh Council UK.

ii) I am aware of letters and what the UK Government has done - I was however surprised by your bold statement 'talking and negotiating with top politicans', which is not the same as letters.

iii) I do not watch Zee TV.

iv) Given what you say about what the UK Government has done were those (largely youth) who were protesting outside 10 Downing Street on 12 April wasting their time? Are those petitioning the UK Government (which I understand is being supported by the Sikh Council UK) wasting their time?

v) I have not categorically stated there was alcohol, all along have said their appears to be alcohol. Others have said they have confirmed there was alcohol.

vi) It is good the Sikh Council UK (it appears you are a main player) has written confirmation from 10 Downing Street confirming there was no alcohol. Perhaps this could be shared with the membership of the Sikh Council UK.

Your requests are legitimate and should be aired with the Sikh Council directly. Regarding complaints about the event itself, they should be raised directly with Tony Uppal, the main advisor for the Downing Street Event.

However, needless competitiveness and classic Indian leg-pulling on the internet is not helpful for our community.

Its our own fault, we always promote the Religious aspect of Vaisakhi as well as the cultural, i.e. harvest time celebrations etc. What No 10 through its advisors has done is combine the 2 together, hence the guy from Alap (Channi) and his daughter singing and the dancing.

The main advisor for this event would have been Paul Uppal MP (tory) from Wolverhampton.

You are correct about this. This was not a religious event. It was a cultural event at Downing Street. It was not a protest or a lobby. Simply a cultural party hosted at 10 Downing Street and an opportunity to network and create links with the UK Government. After all, how can our community safeguard Sikh rights without networking and cultivating relationships at the highest level.

However, you are correct to point out, that cultural or not, such an event should not be serving meat and alcohol because of the Sikhi connection with Vaisakhi. Thankyou also for mentioning Paul Uppal's name as he was the main advisor for the event. Any concerns or complaints would be best sent to him to rectify any situations for next time. That would be a more effective use of time, compared to slandering individuals who have dedicated their lives to sewa for the Panth and questioning their motives.

pedroizzo

The link below has all the officlal photographs of the event. Those wishing to view them, please use the following password. reception16042012

www.photobox.co.uk/album/1212042800

Let people look at all the photographs and decide for themselves.

I have looked at the photographs many times and have been unable to spot any members of the Sikh Federation (UK). Please indicate which photos we should be looking at.

It is great complaints have been lodged by the Sikh Council UK and others.- they were lodged last year when alcohol was served and assurances appear to have been goiven this year, but alcohol appears to have been served again. Apple juice in wine glasses in one thing, dark red liquid as shown in some photographs - suggests red wine. No doubt as you attended, No 10 can confirm in writing if wine was served or not. Someone who attended has confirmed fish was being served - could you confirm if this was or was not the case.

In an earlier post you stated: 'Sikh Council UK, United Sikhs and other key individuals have already been talking and negotiating with top politicans about the Rajoana case etc. This was not the time or the place.'

As far as I am aware the Sikh Council UK whilst having been in touch with the Foreign Office has NOT been talking and negotiating with top politicans about the Rajoana case. Please do not exaggerate and spread untruths - keep in real.

Also earlier someone stated United Sikhs handed over a written document regarding Balwant Singh. There is a photograph (see below) that shows an envelope being given to the PM - great as United Sikhs used the opportunity to raise the matter with the PM. No doubt you would condemn United Sikhs as you said this was not the time or the place!

Well in that case your awareness is limited. I have seen correspondence from the Sikh Council UK to the UK Government regarding the Rajoana case and many other Sikh rights issues. I have also seen the letters written from the UK government written to the Indian Government expressing their concern about the death penalty. If you wish to see these documents then please contact Sikh Council directly. Would I condemn the United Sikhs for giving David Cameron a sealed envelope re Rajoana? Dont be such a drama queen. Honestly you have been watching too much Zee TV. It was done in a discreet and tactful way which was appropriate for the event. I applaud them.

However, lets also understand we are not protesting against the UK Government, we are protesting against the Indian Government. All the UK Government can do and will ever realistically do is express its disagreement with the death penalty which they have already done. The case is currently adjourned. What more do you want the UK Government to do? Go to war with India? Ban trade with India? Be realistic dude. Sikh Council UK is one step ahead of you and most other UK organisations and is playing its part.

Regarding the Federation at the event. First of all lets be clear that there is no real formal membership in the Federation. The two prominent individuals who were present know who they are, and the person who is bitter about not being invited and is spreading the rumours also knows who they are. If you are really so desperate to find out then do so outside of this website as I will not be mentioning their names. Why? Because they are friends of mine.

However, I will re-iterate that individuals were invited to this event and not jathebandis. That means that neither the Federation nor the Sikh Council were formally invited. If members came, it was because of personal invitation.

Regarding the alcohol issue, confirmation that no alcohol was served has come from Downing Street. If you wish to see this, contact Sikh Council UK directly.

It is possible that fish was being served as the White English understanding of vegetarian is different to ours. So vegetarian food was specified to Downing Street but perhaps not clearly enough. However, complaints have been lodged about this in order to rectify the situation for next time.

Lol.."Fruit juice" in fancy wine glasses :wink2: ! That sure separates the pendoos from the noble. Most of us are still drinking our tea from the saucer.

I think the above really summarises what this thread is all about. Jealousy! Certain individuals are feeling snubbed about not getting an invite

Stop asking me silly questions on Sikh Sangat. Contact Sikh Council UK directly and they will be able to dispel any rumours for you.

Please name the Sikh Federation (UK) members present as they are not to be seen in the 150 official photographs..

The individuals who started all these rumours in the first place are well aware who the two Sikh Federation members who attended are so perhaps you should ask them, though I suspect they will deny all knowledge of it. It is also important to note that individuals were given personal invitations to this event and not invited as jathebandian. This was not a protest event or a morcha. There have been lots of opportunities for protesting and lobbying and carried out by men who are wiser and more influential than you or I, regarding the Rajoana case and other Sikh rights issues.

I can also confirm that no alcohol was served. It was fruit juice in wine glasses.

This thread is pure mindless mudslinging which is not in keeping with Sikhi spirit. Shame on the guy (s) who started these rumours for the purposes of personal gain!

Our leaders tip-toe around British politicians. That's all it is. No-one's willing to make a stand for Sikhi asools. That's why Bhai Rajoana is such an inspiration for ordinary Sikhs.

Panth First, Self-Interest Second. These are the type of leaders we need.

Rubbish. Classic Indian leg pulling. Sikh leaders in the Uk have devoted a life time to sewa for the Panth and are doing their best. It is easy to move ones mouth than to actually get off ones back side and do something.

Bhai Rajoana is an inspirational fighting Singh for what he did to Beant and the sacrifice he made but he is not a leader. Sure he has charisma and has caught the popular imagination. But that is not how leaders are made and it is not how leaders are selected. Leaders require leadership qualities and Rajoana does not have them. Its easy to raise slogans from your prison cell and walk around with a big chest and curled up moustache. If you think those are leadership qualities, then you really are on a different planet.

You guys will follow blindly anyone who talks fighting talk and do not appreciate the intricacies of Panthic Affairs. Instead you get excited and passionate over words like revolution without fully understanding what this means and what is involved. Earlier you were dictating to the Uk leaders that they must give money to the womansing and human trafficking Baba Daduwal from India lol. First it was Daduwal, and now it is Rajoana. The total lack of thought and intellect is quite scary. No wonder the 'moderate' Sikh majority think that you lot are all nutters and no wonder the elders think you are a liability and dont want to engage with such an unstable and volatile group of people.

Support the UK Sikh leaders and stop trying to pull them down. They were dealing with Panthic issues before you even entered your mother's womb. You should have some respect for their experience and intellect. Trying to engage independently in hot-headed youth led projects is no good for the Panth!

I have just had it confirmed to me that there was alcohol at the event and there were complaints lodged on the day about this.

Well I didnt see any. And if there was, then it was not because of the negligence the Sikh Council or any group because Downing Street was made well aware of this:

Dear Steve,

My name is ****** , you very kindly sent me an invitation for Mondays Vaisakhi event at 10 Downing Street. I have been liaising with ****** MP for Wolverhampton reference some concerns that were raised at last years events and he requested I also speak to yourself. There are two main concerns:

1. The Vaisakhi event is to celebrate the formation of the Khalsa (initiation ceremony for baptise Sikhs) in April 1699. The drinking of alcohol is prohibiting for Sikhs especially for the baptised, it would therefore be inappropriate to serve alcohol at the event especially as it is to celebrate Vaisakhi.

2. Baptised Sikhs wear the Kirpan as an article of faith and are never separated from them, last year there was a delay of up to an hour because of security concerns. Please could you inform security of this event so that last year’s experienced is not repeated.

I apologise for the late contact but as I said above I was only asked this morning to contact you this afternoon by ***** MP. Please email me or contact me on the number below.

Kind Regards

However, if alcohol was served and complaints have been lodged, then fine, the Sikh Council and other groups should also echo the complaints. However, what is not helpful is questioning the motives and the integrity of those that attended the event.

This is an absolute heartache for Panthic-minded Gursikhs. Why are our Sikh "leaders" so willing to readily compromise on Sikhi principles, just so that they get to hob-nob with the Prime Minister? Sikh Council UK members are also there - surely they must be held to account?

What a load of nonsense this thread is.

Sounds like sour grapes from Sikhs who were not invited to the event lol. What you guys dont seem to realise is that this was a Vaisakhi celebration event not a protest march. It was organised by Downing Street after much persuasion by the Sikh community and this is only the second event running. To have it hijacked into a Panthic Morcha would jeapordise future events from taking place. Sikh Council UK, United Sikhs and other key individuals have already been talking and negotiating with top politicans about the Rajoana case etc. This was not the time or the place.

The majority of those that came to the event were 'moderate' Sikhs from the business community. However, there were also representatives from Sledgley Street Gurdwara, Bhai Mohinder Singh was there, and others such as Lord Inderjit Singh and Dr. Rai.

Sikh Council UK advised Downing Street that such an event should be alcohol free and vegetarian. Indeed, I saw no alcohol there but I saw lots of people drinking apple juice from wine glasses.

Regarding the point about Kesari Dastaars, again another totally ridiculous point. It was a celebratory event for the purposes of networking and developing relationships with Downing Street, not a protest march nor a religious event. Who gave the order that everyone should be wearing Kesari Dastaars and why? Most of the people that went down came straight from work so it would be totally impractical. Incidentally, there were members of the Sikh Federation present and they also opted not to wear Kesari Dastaars either, so where does that leave you?

This is a highly mischievous thread and I question the motives of those who have started it. Most likely it is sour grapes as they were not invited to the event?

I think this video highlights how Punjab police's whole ethos and development is still in a time warp from the time of the British Raj and has not moved on with the times, hence their institutionalised attitude of trying to oppress and subjugate the public.

We should be campaigning for reforms and modernisation in the Punjab Police.