Jonny101

When you said a decision was taken by the Guru Khalsa Panth, it seems as though you were hinting towards an event that must have taken place. But seeing as though this is not the case I don't see a reason for following a man made innovation and forcing everyone else to do the same.

Trump was the typical orientalist historian. He thought that the native population does not know much about their own history so Europeans like him need to show them what their history and religion is all about. At first it is said that he had enlisted the help of Sikh gianis. When he opened up the Guru Granth Sahib Jee and started to smoke a cigar which horrified the Sikh Gianis present who at once took the Guru Granth Sahib away from him and rushed out of the room. He then was given help on his work about Sikhism by his Hindu colleagues.

LOL what? where did I say waste your time on Krishan? If you are saying the Tukhs I mentioned are myth then you are calling Gurus a liar. If the Guru mentioned them then as a Sikh you need to accept and properly understand what they wrote. No where does the Guru say worship or focus on krishan. I dont know how you came to that conclusion. Hindus say Krishan or Raam is supreme god and all powerful. Guru Gobind Singh Jee is saying NO that is not true. He is saying when Krishan killed Kans it was only through the power that Vaheguru had given him that he was able to grab and kill Kans. It was only through the power that Vaheguru had given Raam that he was able to kill a powerful warrior like Ravan. If Vaheguru did not enable them, then Raam and Krishan could never have killed powerful warriors like Ravan and Kans. This tukh clearly shows the greatness of Vaheguru as being the supreme God not Krishan or Raam. Maybe you are confused with the English translation. Here is a humble attempt to translate it into Punjabi. ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥ (ਹੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ) ਤੇਰੇ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਰਾਮ ਨੇ ਬਲ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਰਾਵਣ ਨੂੰ ਤੀਰਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਮਾਰ ਮੁਕਾਯਾ ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥ (ਹੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ) ਤੇਰੇ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਨੇ ਬਲ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਕੰਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੇਸੋਂ ਫੜ ਕੇ ਸੁੱਟ ਗਿਰਾਯਾ ਇਸ ਤੁਖ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਡਾ ਜਾਂ ਓਹ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਡੇ? ਇਹਨਾਂ ਤੁਖਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਸਿਧੇ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹ ਨੇ ਕਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਰਾਮ ਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਆਪਣੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਨਹੀ ਸੀ, ਬਲਕਿ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਹਾਰੇ ਹੀ ਓਹਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਰਾਵਣ ਤੇ ਕੰਸ ਵਰਗੇ ਸ਼ਕਤੀਸ਼ਾਲੀ ਯੋਦੇਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰ ਮੁਕਾਯਾ। ਇਹ ਕੋਈ ਮਿਥਿਹਾਸਿਕ ਕਹਾਣੀਆਂ ਨਹੀ, ਜੇ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਲਿਖੀ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਗੱਲ ਸੱਚੀ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਹੋ ਹੀ ਨਹੀ ਸਕਦਾ ਕਿ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਝੂਟ ਦਾ ਸਹਾਰਾ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਸੱਚ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕਰੇ।

Nihangs were also started by Guru Gobind Singh Jee and their Rehras Sahib is much bigger and more sampooran than Taksals. Hazoor Sahib claims to follow the same maryada as set by Guru Gobind Singh Jee and say their Rehras Sahib is exactly they way Guru Gobind SIngh Jee intended it to be and their Rehras Sahib is also bigger and more sampooran than Taksals. Nanaksar also follow's the Hazoori rehras Sahib. Bhinderkalan Taksal does not read the Har Jug Jug Bhagat Upaya shabad while the Mehta one does, so within Taksal there is no agreement on which is sampooran. Which is why it doesn't make sense brother to say yours is sampooran while others are not. How is Dasam Granth not being Prakash at Akal Takht wrong? if this tradition was started by the 10th Guru I would agree but since isn't how can we say it is wrong? You say Bhai Mani Singh Jee installed and did Prakash of Dasam Granth at Akal Takht, this is news to me. Is this event mentioned in any historical source? No it isn't. Dasam Granth is Gurbani and as Sikhs we need to respect it but let us stick to the traditions made by the Guru rather than man made innovations or if you want to follow man made innovations go ahead but at least don't force such innovations on the rest of the Panth. Dasam Granth has it's place but let us not give Kala Afghanis a chance to speak ill against this Granth.

Jaap Sahib is such a beautiful composition. If one were to listen to this bani being recited it is very meditative. Ones mind get so easily aborbed into the rhythm of this bani. The meaning of full of Nirgun and Sargun aspects of Vaheguru. One is amazed how such a bani was written. Sad how Narakdhari kala afghanis like Dhunda was hitting this bani with a stick and the Jeowala can mock it.

That Gursevak.com site is a great seva by Bhagat Jee. It's like an online Taksal.

Hew McLeod is his name. He passed away recently. The German fellow I think you are referring to is Ernest Trump. Sikh scholar Trilochan Singh Jee has completely ripped apart McLeod and Trump in his book "Ernest Trump & Hew McLeod as Scholars of Sikh History"

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥ Rama received power from Thee and he killed Ravana with arrows. ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥ Krishna received power from Thee and he threw down Kansa by catching his hair. From the above Dasam Bani Tukhs in Chandi Di Vaar it says that the power of Raam and Krishan came from Vaheguru. Dasam Guru has mentioned this as fact not fiction. As for official history that we read about in text books, that is a different story. I think truth is somewhere in between the official and unofficial. If we go by the western orientalist version of Sikh history then we get the McLeodian literature which in my opinion grossly misrepresents Sikh history and it quite frankly is a load of crap. Similarly it wouldn't be off the mark to say that orientalist version of Indian history is also probably misrepresentive.

Don't know about it being fiction since Rishi Vyas himself was also a character in the Mahabharat. Secondly if some of these characters are mentioned in Gurbani then surely they must have existed. Gurbani would not mention lies.

N30 Singh Jee Teja Singh Bhasaur wasn't bad during his early carrier as a Parcharak. He did massive in Punjab bringing many Hindus into the Sikh fold. His thoughts became corrupted later on. It is worth noting that when he became heretic it was the Singh Sabhiyas who excommunicated him. So I fail to understand why some people today try to link him to the Singh Sabha movement even though he became heretic after the Singh Sabha movement was finished. Secondly Kala Afghana has nothing to do with Teja Singh Bhasaur. These are two different subject matters. Why try to artificially create a link and mix them up? Sikh Sidhaants and Hindu Sidhaants are separate and we can get plenty of farmaans from Dasam Granth showing how Gurmat is different as Dasam Granth is probably the most critical Granth to Hindu Dharm.

If the Mahabharat war happened 5000 years ago and Bhagwat Gita is in Sanskrit we can push the date back to atleast 3000 BC. But that date is not in agreement with the orientalist theory of Aryan invasion of India which happened around 1500 BC.

Sant Attar Singh Mastuane Jee's parchar was a part of the Singh Sabha effort not separate. All the parcharaks who took part during this movement did it as a joint effort.

I think the term Sahejdhari has been misinterpreted by the current generation of Sikhs. The term Sahejdhari was used for Hindus who were Shardaloos of the Guru Ghar and were on the path to Sikhism. About a hundred years ago, the Sahejdharis were a large community in Punjab mostly consisting of Aroras. Eventually they became Sikhs and the now Sahejdhari community is almost no more. In current times, Sikhs who were born in Sikh families and have cut their hair call themselves Sahejdharis. This is a misrepresentation of the term.

What year was this decision taken and by whom.

Very true. I support the integration of minorities. But I feel that if or when they put a ban on Islamic style dress, we Sikhs will also become a victim of such a legislation. It's hard to imagine that Muslims will be targeted and Sikhs will be left alone. When Goras turn anti Islamic chances are they will they also turn against us. The west is seeing the rise of a new fanatical form of secularism in which religious minorities are prime targets. Take for example that nut case in Canada Tarek Fatah. He is an extreme secularist to such an extent that he is against his own people the Muslims. But he is not just restricting his extreme form of secularism to Muslims. Today he is also on the forefront of opposing Sikhs especially on the Kirpan issue. This new form of extremist secularism is not a positive development as far as Sikhs are concearned. This is the type of extremism that has led to anti Sikh laws of France. The scary part is the western media seems to be sympathetic to this new form of extremist secularism. I don't know where the west is headed. But things don't look good, especially for Europe.

Ghatak Jee, which Rehras Sahib is sampooran? is it the Panthic one? Mehta one, Bhinderkalaan one, Hazoor Sahib one, Nihang one? all these different groups say their is sampooran and the other one is not. As for Dasam Granth's parkash, I am a dasam granth supporter but what is the logic of doing parkash of it like SGGSJ? This is not a Guru made tradition. It is a man made tradition. Guru Made is Gurmat, Man Made is Manmat. History of witness that during the time of Dasam Guru, his bani was in different pothis, was the Panth weaker during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Je? you be the judge of that. Bhai Mani Singh Jee later on collected dasam bani and compiled it into a single granth. Then after Sukha Singh Mehtab Singh killed Massa Rangar it was made clear from that point on ward that all of Dasam Bani would remain a single granth. Still today with our understanding of these facts if we do parkash of Dasam Granth you will only be giving these Kala Afghanis/missionaries a chance to point a finger on us and further insult the Dasam Granth.

Nothing against Sikhi to use Garlic. In fact, Garlic just makes the langar taste better and it's good for the body. Why should we stop using Garlic or Onion? as long as meat is not used no need to create a fuss over Garlic. Naam Simran has enough shakti to counter the effects of any rajoguni or tamoguni good if that's what garlic is. We just need to have faith in Naam and follow Guru Jee's hukams.

I dont agree veerji. As i've mentioned, the court does not solidly say Parmar is guilty. It just says he has a good reason for carrying out the act but falls short of saying he is guilty. The Indian authorities were smart. They knew if he is kept alive he will be proven innocent of the crime much like Malik and Bagri. But since he is not alive he cannot come back to prove himself innocent as Malik and Bagri did. As a result this "question mark" will hang over him. And this question does not automatically mean guilty. I'm no fan of Parmar either and I have my own reasons but I'm not going to gain anything by saying he is guilty of a crime and that too without any evidence. Parmar may have had his flaws but blowing up of the plane is not one of them at least as far as the available evidence is concearned.

Veerji, you keep mentioning the term Question mark on Malik and Parmar. But question mark does not automatically mean guilty. Question mark can go both ways. Anyway, Malik and Bagri are innocent as shown by the trial unless you have discovered some new saboot/proof. Talwinder Singh was killed under mysterious circumstances by the GOI. It seems the Indian authorities knew it is better to have Parmar dead and leave a question mark hanging around him rather then keep him alive and be proven innocent of the crime like Bagri and Malik. RAW has it's agents in the western and Indian media to constantly pound anti Sikh venom. The saying goes something like this: if you say a lie 100 times people will eventually start to beleive it. This saying is appropriate for this case where the media has influenced us so thoroughly that some of us actually beleive Sikhs are behind this whole mess. This is a false flag operation.

Veerji, try to see things in context. The reason why Soft Target is supported amongst Sikh circles is not because it points the finger at those Singhs. It's because it shows that there is GOI involvement in this case which Sikhs know for a fact. We know from experience with the GOI that many false flag operations have occurred involving the GOI and Sikhs and it's always the Sikhs who are on the receiving end. Unlike some of us, the GOI does not think along sectarian lines. For them we are Sikhs not AKJ, Taksal, Nihang, Sampradayak, Snaatan etc. If the case was as easy as open and shut case as you think it is why was Bagri and Malik not found guilty despite the overwhelming media attack and a team of the best lawyers on the prosecution side? Veerji, you cannot see this case based on your pre conceived notions and personal bias against a certain group. You cannot add water to a glass which is already full. Clear your mind and forget that they may be associated with AKJ or Babbars for a once.

N30 Singh Jee, by pointing the blame at the Singhs from a different angle does not make your point anymore credible. Do you know that proof they have proving these Singhs did the bombing??? absolutely ZERO! All the evidence that people have who are pointing fingers at these Singhs have is based on a creative imagination, nothing solid or definite. This isn't India where the Indian government can plant "proof" or torture someone to extract testimony to falsely incriminate someone in a crime. The Canadian prosecution team equipped with support from csis (intelligence agency) with all their modern forensic facilities spent millions of dollars in trying to find some shred of evidence against these Singhs. But you know what they found??? NOTHING!!! And in the west it is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY! the other way around. I think that the real reason you are against them is because they may have links with the Babbar Khalsa or AKJ which I know you dislike. We need to rise above our petty sectarian differences and think of the bigger picture. Personally I'm not a supporter of Talwinder Singh or associated with AKJ in anyway shape or form but I'm not going to blindly support the media against fellow Sikhs because they happen to be pointing the blame at a certain group which I'm not in agreement with. We are all on the same boat here. Let us not weaken to the group by letting our sectarian differences get the better of us.

You can mock it any way you like by comparing this to the 9/11 or Holocaust denial. But it is not the same. But I'm not a muppet who will just blindly believe in the media. At least we have proof that 9/11 was done by AlQaida, and Holocaust did in fact happen. But Indian government supporters like you have absolutely not a shred of evidence to prove Sikhs did this. You think the Indian government which just a year earlier had carried out operation blue star under false pretense of flushing out the "terrorists" on a holy day when thousands of pilgrims were attending to exact maximum civilian casualties, then months later carried out operation woodrose to suppress the Sikhs and did riots in which untold thousands of civilians again were slaughtered you think such a government would not implement more false flag operations? Yes, your Indian government is very innocent indeed.

Old saying in English: Dead men tell no tails... Since no one alive is left to convict, they found two innocent Singhs to accuse for the bombing. They spent millions upon millions of dollars to try to prove these men were guilty of the crime. The entire Gora WASP media was against these Singhs. Despite this overwhelming attempt at trying to prove these innocent Singhs as the guilty party, they couldn't even find a shred of evidence which shows any link between these Singhs and the bombing. Now all they have is Talwinder Singh a dead man. It's very easy to point fingers at dead men because unlike live men they don't come back to prove they are are innocent. The bombing was a "false flag operation" done by the Indian government. Search "false flag operation". Many governments through out the world do these false flag operations. The Nazis did it when they burnt the Reichstag 1933 and pinned the blame on the communists of Germany. The israeli government did it in 1967 when they attacked the USS liberty and tried to pin the blame on Egypt.

Agreed with Dhunda, but I'm not to sure about Dandrianwala being a GOI agent. The only people who say this are the Kala Afghanis(The real GOI agents). Anyway, where did you hear this about the family saying Dandrianwala is a GOI agent. Curious, just want to know.

Veerji it has become a sort of fashion now days to diss the Singh Sabha movement especially by those heavily influenced by the McLeodian school of Orientalist literature. All I know is that my own family adopted Sikhi during this movement. If not for this movement my family would still have been Hindu Jatt. Me and my whole family owe a great sense of gratitude to the Singh Sabha movement. Sikh population at the time increased at the expense of the Hindu population of Punjab. If only the had done this parchar to the Muslims of Punjab maybe our Punjab would still have been united. Unfortunately this movement finished before it could mature. I don`t view uniformity with negativity. We are not like like Hindus where anything goes and everything is allowed. Gurmat has some Sidhaants that must be followed.