MiddxSingh

How are minority communities treated in countries run by Buddhists e.g. Siri Lanka, Burma, etc ?

I've noticed alot of sikhs of late 20's and 30's (especially amritdhari) are not getting into wedlock. This will have detrimental effect on sikh population.

The term Taksal was not used to refer to Jatha Bhindrawala before Operation Blue Star.

If you reside in UK, please contact Dharsan Singh Sohal of Southall - who was the senior student of Gian Singh Almast.

Don't forget that Sant Gurbachan Singh has written that both "waheguru" mantar and "ik onkaar" can be beej mantar. Although I believe bij mantar is "waheguru" I respect Sant jee's view that "ik onkaar" is also bij mantar aswell as "waheguru" So chanting "waheguru waheguru" equals doing both gurmantar and bij mantar jaap!

The mool mantar debate has been ended once and for all by an intelligent gursikh: Nowadays we have idiots who say in their katha that those who read upto gurprasad will go to hell. But they forget their own taksaal says upto gurprasad is a valid mantar - maha mantar. If someone calls it mool mantar then let them, no harm done, from your point of view you can just think they are actually doing maha mantar which is perfectly valid and acceptable as a mantar in taksaal. So I hope this is one disagreement in the panth which can be left alone. Everyone agree?

Yes that tuk could be translated any way you want, so let us not dwell on that tuk in this context then. Anyway the point is that in our out ithaas Guru Gobind Singh said say guru ZOR (with force) naal while keeping the tongue up which would produce a loud Gurrrrrrrroooooooo sound. However this is a naam simran jugti so it is not meant to be done randmly in kirtan smagam as is done nowadays in jatha smagams. Bhai Sahib was against this sort of pakhand of showing off that you can do naam abhiyaas in kirtan. In kirtan one can do simran silently or quietly.

Method of Naam Simran. Someone started a good topic on this on another forum. Here is what was said: Unfortunatley there are various gursikhs in the jatha who are anti loud naam abhiyaas. If it is their personal preference to do simran quietly then that's fine. Just don't look down on others. They think they know better and follow lower level gursikhs in jatha (in comparison to bhai sahib) who prefer quiet simran. The point here is that both quiet and loud naam abhiyaas is parvaan in gurmat. Firstly they are going against Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh who advises to jap naam with force with gurmat vidhi which causes naam russ to come. Secondly let us go direct to the Guru ji for his advice. It is proven in ithaas that Guru Gobind Singh ji gave hukum to Mata ji to do swaas swaas simran and when saying guru touch the tounge to the palate and say guRU with force (zor naal). When done like that, it can give the sound effect of a lion roaring depending on how deep ones voice is. It may sound like a dog barking to his lord master. Or if in even higher pitch may sound like a rainbird singing to the clouds in the sky for the rain drops to come down. So those within or outside jatha who ridicule loud naam abhiyaas who sound like roaring lions are actually laughing at the hukum of Sri Guru Gobind Singh maharaj. So naam japo jio: ਮਿਲਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਜੈਕਾਰੋ ਰਾਮ ॥ The sainlty gursikhs do loud jaikare of Akaal! So be very careful what you laugh at… Sant ki ninda and conclusion: If yourself or any other taksali singh still has doubts then read the poem, which highly praises bhai sahib, which was written by Sant Gurbachan Singh himself. Gurbani defines a pooran sant who japps naam with every single breath. Now Bhai Sahib Randhir considered this avastha just the first stage! Bhai Sahib was actually much much higher then the basic avastha of aath pehar simran which all amritdharis actually should be doing as per hukum. So read sant ki ninda asthipadai of Sri Sukhmani Sahib to see what punishment one will get for doing ninda of a sant or a maha Sant (bhai sahib) in this case. To say a certain group is pratan and not another is a misnomer. What matters is how pratan the rehit is, not the group. Because all amrit can be traced back to Guru Gobind Singh ji. Where did Bhai sahib and other orginal jatha singhs shak amrit from? It all traces back to the original punj pyare. So although akj is newly formed in early last century, we personally believe our rehit is close to pratan, take this whatever way you like. The fact is Bhai Sahib never allowed himself to be called “sant baba”. This in itself is a pratan asool of sikhi. The sants who claim that they are from a pratan order and criticise new groups are themselves guilty of following a modern trend of calling themselves “sant”. Be intelligent, look at ithaas, all mahan gursikh brahmgyranis during that time were NOT titled “sant baba”. If a brahmgyani then was of elderly age only then they were called “baba” ji at the most. Otherwise even a great brahmgyani like Bhai Gurdaas Ji, whose bani is considered the key to understanding gurbani, was called “bhai” or “bhai sahib” The fact is Bhai Sahib wrote very beautifully about very high level sikhi. The only reason his writings touch the readers heart is because Bhai Sahib was himself a player of these high spiritual states. His writings on these high level avsthas is unmatched! Whoever considers themselves a seeker of truth ( a sikh) should read all book by Bhai Sahib and other Gursikhs/Sants without bias. Then see what you have to say. There are countless Singhs who did not believe in Raagmala but left this world effortlessly. Raagmala has nothing to do with how the Gursikhs left this world. There were many very vocal opponents of Raagmala during the times of Bhai Sahib and Bhai Sahib, though did not consider Raagmala as Bani, but was not an active preacher against it. He hardly wrote anything against Raagmala. Sant Gurbachan Singh jee Bhindranwale knew that Bhai Sahib did not consider Raagmala as Baani but this did not prevent him from praising Bhai Sahib as follows: ਦਿੱਹਲੀ ਮੇ ਰਕਾਬ ਗੰਜ ਕੰਧ ਢਾਹੀ ਫਿਰੰਗੀ, ਸਿੰਘ ਸਾਵਧਾਨ ਜਾਗੇ ਸੀਸਾਂ ਤਾਈਂ ਲਾਵਨੇ । In Delhi, the Firangis (British) tore down a wall of Gurdwara Rakabganj, alert Singhs (Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee) woke up to sacrifice their heads. ਭਾਈ ਰਣਧੀਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਸੀਸ ਦੇਣ ਆਪ ਗਏ, ਕੰਧ ਉਸਰਾਲੀ ਫੇਰ ਮੋਨੀ ਘਬਰਾਵਨੇ । Bhai Sahib himself went to sacrifice his head to construct the falled wall. ਸੰਤ ਰਣਧੀਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਮੁ ਲਿਵਲਾਈ ਜਿਨਾਂ, ਕੀਰਤਨ ਅਖੰਡ ਕਰੈ ਮਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਵਨੇ । Sant Randhir Singh did tuned his concentration to Naam and did non-stop Kirtan to satiate his mind. ਸਤਰਾਂ ਸਾਲ ਜੇਲ ਕਟੀ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਹ ਬੀਚ ਛਕੈ, ਧੰਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਮਨ ਤਨ ਰੰਗ ਗਾਵਨੇ ।।੭੭ ।। He spent 17 years in jail while eating in Sarbloh; Dhan are Guru Pyare (Bhai Sahib jee) who sang with love with mind and body. Sant Gurbachan Singh obviously had a lot of respect and love for Bhai Sahib. He calls Bhai Sahib a Sant. If Bhai Sahib was as bad as these pseudo Sikhs are declaring today, would Sant jee had praised Bhai Sahib this way? These people are only destroying their future by slandering Bhai Sahib jee. They can't compare to even a hair of Bhai Sahib and have almost no Kamaaee (as it is evident from their posts) but they have the audacity to slander Bhai Sahib. May their Sodha be done by Guru Sahib as per Gurmat. This is Kaljug and it is expected that a wide range of slandering of Bhagats will occur now. These people are playing into the hands of evil by slandering Bhai Sahib.

There is a time for protest. When you are protesting about a long issue then such a protest to a democratic is hopeless. Why? because the government can choose to ignore or use delay tactics in doing something it as was the case with the protest at Downing St for Proff ji being on deathrow in India. The government kept ignoring us (very easy for them to do, no media coverage and not a sudden case) and now after so long (delay tactics) they said they might have a "talk" with India. Then we had this protest turn into a friendly social gathering with kirtan in the evenings. I believe this may have organised by goverment agents pretending to be gursikhs, which we know do exist. They turned a protest into a nice public show of kirtan and social gathering. If there was to be a protest, now, it would be over something like this - a sudden obvious attack on sikhs in delhi. It is protest material which the uk or any other democratic government cannot so blatenly ignore. If there was to be such a protest, then there would have good turn out and there to be some emotion i.e. chanting out slogans loudly in bir russ, showing our pain and rage over such a horrific and unjustified recent terror act against us (but never giving any signs of violence of course). Please discuss here and with friends/family. If there is going to be a protest it as to be asap, as the longer the delay after the event the less the effect of a protest.

You can take it as a personal attack, and calling anyone who is against hindu rituals in sikhi as mr hindu allergy is getting old mate. You have suddenly changed your tune by agreeing with Johnny101. All I said was gurbani never salutes hindu god shiva and you, lacking respect for guru sahib, tried to show Guru Gobind Singh ji did with the following comment: "So can you explain why Guru Gobind Singh is insulting us by your view in the dasam granth with the following bani: Deh siva bar mohe eh-hey subh karman te kabhu na taro. Na daro arr seo jab jaye laro nischey kar apni jeet karo..." Why do you think Johnny had to explain this basic concept to you? because it was obvious that you falsely believe gurbani salutes Shiva. So I stand by what I said, you have openly declared your views after hundreds of posts, which do not fit in with the basic principles of sikhi. Taking this as a personal attack is a joke, no insult or mick taking was aimed at you. Personal attacks happen frequently here so try comparing them to what I said. MLOL again at making me out to have a hindu allergy because I refuse to believe that gurbani/sikhi condones worshiping any hindu deities!

After almost 600 posts on sikhsangat you have finally openly declared your false views on sikhi. I wonder who else shares these views here. How can you or anyone else honestly believe, as a sikh, that Guru Gobind Singh ji here is saluting the hindu god shiva?

However please do not slander Sri Jap ji Sahib. Nowhere does gurbani salute the hindu god shiva. Gursant Singh was telling us that yogi bhajan was Hindu at heart:

DalbirSingh ji, thank you for your sensible reply. Firstly finding faults in Gursant Singh is not an excuse to ignore the great violations done by 3ho, so thank you for not doing that. About Gursant Singh, please provide evidence (a youtube clip of him sayin these things, extract of his book). I don't think a 99cents book is a way to seriously raise money, more like pay for the expenses of publishing and printing. If what you say about him is true then I will have no problem condeming those views, as we should condemn any anti gurmat views no matter who it is and what group they belong to.

Please watch the following videos including other parts to it: In fact I would suggest watching all the videos in the channel for those unsure about the wrong teachings of 3ho. It is wrong to slander a jathebandi based on a few individuals commiting big violations of sikhi. However it is our duty to be aware of and warn the panth of any organsation which is actually BASED on anti sikh principles. This ex long term member of 3ho has been brave enough to publicly discuss anti sikhi practices of 3ho, especially its founder yogi bhajan. There was already a great book written on this by Dr Trilochan Singh regarding this issue but many people do not about this. A free pdf version is available online. However you will always get those with a snatan or vedant "all is one and good" type mindset having a soft spot for 3ho despite the evidence of their main princniples being hugely against the teachings of GuruSahib. Remember this isn't about exposing a random indiviual doing dodgy stuff and then using that as an excuse to attack a panthic jathebandi, this is about being aware of this group 3ho being based on and having teachings and principles which are very much against the teachings of gurbani. Clever ppl will say this is racist. No it isn't. Infact punjabi ppl normally love white people. So being against 3h0 is NOT being against white sikhs. 3ho have "sikhs" of various ethinicites. Then on the other hand white sikhs are found in other jathebandis so please do not foolishly take being against the teachings of 3h0 as being against anyone who is white. As this gursikhs in the youtube videos has said - if we don't bring awareness to the panth about their teachings and gross violations of gurmat then they will always be a danger of brainwashing innocent sikhs into their manmat. This is a worldwide sikh forum and it has a duty to teach correct sikhi and also warn us about any group which is teaching something which is very much against basic sikhi.

taran0 ji, I humbly submit onto you that your facts are incorrect. Maybe all the sikhs then did not take khande pahul but they sure were all amritdhari (charan pahul shakiya see). To be a sikh of Guru Nanak one has to shak amrit whether in the form charan pahul or khande pahul (given by punj pyare). Unless someone is deluded I think it is very obvious that only khande bata da amrit is available know as Guru Sahib is no longer in human form, so charan pahul is not available now. Back to the topic. This topic seems abit silly because anyone of any religion, race, creed, amritdhari or non amritdhari can ask about sikhi and also discuss sikhi. If it were a case of a non amritdhari lecturing amritdharis on the values and lifestyle of sikhi then one could object to that, but anyone and everyone has the right to discuss and ask questions sikhi.

That's the wrong way to take it, nothing wrong with the word just that school of thought (advait vedanta) should not be confused with sikhi. It has a big flaw in it. To see gurbani as various individual changing preceptions of reality is insulting, because individual perception is false (as it changes). Gurbani is ultimate truth. Gurbani is sach hi sach. it's a case of how much the sikh has realised the truth of gurbani not a case of the truth changing (falsehood). The more a sikh progresses, the more he starts to realise and personally experience the truth of gurbani. Yes gurbani does have different messages for different avasthas, but that's not a change in truth. All the message and spirtual levels mentioned in gurbani are 100% sach. bwxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ] The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained. guru bwxI khY syvku jnu mwnY prqiK gurU insqwry ]5] If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. ||5|| Disregaring our guru sahib and putting faith in other belief sytems will lead us further away from Vaheguru (but perhaps you don't care as you believe you are the ultimate one as per advait vedant philosphy) bwJu gurU gubwru hY ibnu sbdY bUJ n pwie ] baajh guroo gubaar hai bin sabadhai boojh n paae || Without the Guru, there is only pitch darkness; without the Shabad, understanding is not obtained. Charitpakhyan does not instruct us to do dodgy stuff, more like avoid it - it's teaching us important life lessons.

The problem is you are only following a watered down, modern friendly version of buddism. If you want to follow real buddism or any of these indian school of thoughts then why not do it properly? Presented further below in this post is the danger of the advait mindset which partially exists in buddism. Read Buddha's and his disciples' old literuture (translated into english of course, unless you can read tibetan), for a real view of buddism. Same applies to other schools of thoughts. Forget reading the untrue western watered down books on your belief system. Hear is a small description on a particular part of the text "Mahamaya Tantra": Moving into the third chapter, the tantra introduces a sequence of verses outlining the rites associated with the ingestion of sacramental substances (samayadravya). The yogī is instructed to gather the five illicit meats (elephant, horse, cow, dog, and human), roll them individually into pellets, and store them for seven days. Next they are mixed together and stored in the cavity of a rotting jackal for an additional seven days. Finally they are taken out and consumed, resulting in an experience of “the great fruitions” (mahāphalāni, v. 3.6), which Ratnākaraśānti identifies as “the state of wisdom.”19 Though the five illicit meats are common enough in tantric literature, the especially polluting addition of a jackal corpse appears to be a unique contribution of the Mahāmāyātantra. We can understand this distinctly unpalatable process as intended to collapse the binaries of pure and impure, precipitating a more complete rejection of dualistic concepts and, as verse 3.1 states, leading to “omniscience.” I couldn't post other parts as children visit sikhsangat.com. Then they use visulation techniques of imagining Mahamaya (pure sargun pooja) to so called realise ultimate reality (false sense of realising nirgun vaheguru). See this dangerous "mentality" of advait. This is one raw old school jugti to get rid of a dual aspect concerning purity/impurity. Others here may want to follow some other nicely touched up jugti which seems like it's ok but as guru sahib sikhs let us leave our faith in gurbani alone and just jap naam with prem and sharda. There are many shocking unsikhi like things which come up while reading the raw source translations of other belief systems. Also try reading arths throughout Guru Granth Sahib ji and you will be shocked at the criticism of other false belief systems and rituals. Just read common and random shabads you will see guru sahib is telling us something completly different as to what is being preached here nowadays. I'm afraid without purely following gurbani which leads to gurparsad, one can never realise the One Vaheguru. Please leave out this advait business...

THE WARRIOR, thanks for being honest about your beliefs regarding not believing in an actual god and that your thoughts are more inline with budda dharma rather then sikhi. Sadly others, through either cleverness or ignorance, still try to say this type of thinking is sikhi, when it's clearly not. In the end Khalsa belongs to Vaheguroo and victory belongs to the almighty Vaheguroo: VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH!

Just jumping ahead, sangat ji please read the whole of this chapter of bachitar natak bani, it’s so amazing and shows how founders of other religions were inferior and did not fully please Akal purakh Vaheguru. We are taught to respect and not insult other religions but this doesn’t mean we should not proudly say guru sahib’s sikhi is the greatest! There is not need to be politically correct saying this! Anyways I’m jumping onto relevant tuks relating to the topic that has been discussed by myself and n30singh: ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਹਰਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਬੁਲਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਹਿ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੨੮॥ When I was busy in the austere devotion, the Lord called me and sent me to this world with the following words.28. ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਾਚ ॥ The Word of the Non-Temporal Lord: ਚੌਪਈ ॥ चौपई ॥ CHAUPAI ਮੈ ਅਪਨਾ ਸੁਤ ਤੋਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ॥ ਪੰਥ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ ਕਰਬੇ ਕਹੁ ਸਾਜਾ ॥ I have adopted you as my son and hath created you for the propagation of the path (Panth). ਜਾਹਿ ਤਹਾਂ ਤੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਚਲਾਇ ॥ ਕਬੁਧਿ ਕਰਨ ਤੇ ਲੋਕ ਹਟਾਇ ॥੨੯॥ You go therefore for the spread of Dharma (righteousness) and cause people to retrace their steps from evil actions".29. ਕਬਿਬਾਚ ॥ The World of the Poet: ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥ DOHRA ਠਾਢ ਭਯੋ ਮੈ ਜੋਰਿ ਕਰ ਬਚਨ ਕਹਾ ਸਿਰ ਨਿਆਇ ॥ I stood up with folded hands and bowing down my head, I said: ਪੰਥ ਚਲੈ ਤਬ ਜਗਤ ਮੈ ਜਬ ਤੁਮ ਕਰਹੁ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੩੦॥ The path (Panth) shall prevail only in the world, with THY ASSISTANCE."30. ਚੌਪਈ ॥ CHAUPI ਇਹ ਕਾਰਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੋਹਿ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਬ ਮੈ ਜਗਤਿ ਜਨਮ ਧਰਿ ਆਯੋ ॥ For this reason the Lord sent me and I was born in this world. ਜਿਮ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੀ ਇਨੈ ਤਿਮ ਕਹਿਹੋਂ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕਿਸੂ ਤੇ ਬੈਰ ਨ ਗਹਿਹੋਂ ॥੩੧॥ Whatever the Lord said, I am repeating the same unto you, I do not bear enmity with anyone.31. ਜੋ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕਿ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿਹੈਂ ॥ Whosoever shall call me the Lord, shall fall into hell. ਮੋ ਕੌ ਦਾਸ ਤਵਨ ਕਾ ਜਾਨੋ ॥ ਯਾ ਮੈ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਰੰਚ ਪਛਾਨੋ ॥੩੨॥ Consider me as His servant and do not think of any difference between me and the Lord.32. ਮੈ ਹੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ ਦੇਖਨਿ ਆਯੋ ਜਗਤ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥ I am the servant of the Supreme Purusha and hath come to see the Sport of the world. ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਗਤਿ ਕਹਾ ਸੋ ਕਹਿ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਲੋਕ ਤੇ ਮੋਨਿ ਨ ਰਹਿਹੋਂ ॥੩੩॥ Whatever the Lord of the world said, I say the same unto you, I cannot remain silent in this abode of death.33.

Another problem with this vedant type philopshy of yours is that it goes against the principle of: jh dyKw qh eyku qU AMqu n pwrwvwru ] jeh dhaekhaa theh eaek thoo anth n paaraavaar | Wherever I look, there I see You, Lord; You have no end or limitation. Vaheguru has no limit or end that means the level of brahmgyan too must have no limit. With your definition of the highest avastha that there is no drop, the soul is the ocean like god violates this sikhi principle of vaheguru and his brahmgyan having no end/limit. Also if this is the highest avastha it then fails to explain how guru sahib comes into the equation. A brahmgyani cannot be equal to guru sahib but your theory suggests the soul realises it was always god. For now let us leave the vichaar of mahapurakhs/bhai sahibs/ gurmukhs as they all had different views, some heavily influenced by vedant and some not and this could end up into a childish argument over which gurmukh mahapursh is better or has more kmayee etc. So I’m sure even you will not argue with Guru Gobind Singh. However you still may stubbornly hold onto these vedant views. My main hope is sangat realises the truth and for now leave out vichaar of gurmukhs/mahapurakhs but listen directly to Guru Gobind Singh ji. Guru Gobind Singh before being given status of Satguru by Vaheguru was pooran next level brahmgyani, as dusth daman, totally one and very deeply merged with the lord. Please ponder on these tuks very carefully from dasam granth written by Guru Gobind Singh jee himself in bachitar natak (also this dasam bani like bani from guru granth sahib also proves founders of other religions including devtas did not reach vaheguru as you have failed to humbly accept many times in previous online discussions – but that’s another topic): ਤਹ ਹਮ ਅਧਿਕ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਸਾਧੀ ॥ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥੨॥ There I was absorbed in deep meditation on the Primal Power, the Supreme KAL.2. ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਿਸਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥ In this way, my meditation reached its zenith and I became One with the Omnipotent Lord. ਤਾਤ ਮਾਤ ਮੁਰ ਅਲਖ ਅਰਾਧਾ ॥ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਜੋਗ ਸਾਧਨਾ ਸਾਧਾ ॥੩॥ My parents also meditated for the union with the Incomprehensible Lord and performed many types of disciplines for union.3. ਤਿਨ ਜੋ ਕਰੀ ਅਲਖ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨਿ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਾ ॥ The service that they rendered the Incomprehensible Lord, caused the pleasure of the Supreme Guru ਤਿਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਬ ਆਇਸ ਮੁਹਿ ਦੀਆ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਲੀਆ ॥੪॥ When the Lord ordered me, I was born in this Iron age.4. ਚਿਤ ਨ ਭਯੋ ਹਮਰੋ ਆਵਨ ਕਹਿ ॥ ਚੁਭੀ ਰਹੀ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਚਰਨਨ ਮਹਿ ॥ I had no desire to come, because I was totally absorbed in devotion for the Holy feet of the Lord. ਜਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਿਹ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕਿ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੫॥ But the Lord made me understand His Will and sent me in this world with the following words.5. ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਾਚ ਇਸ ਕੀਟ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ॥ The Words of the Non-temporal Lord to this insect: ਚੌਪਈ ॥ CHAUPAI ਜਬ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਹਮ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਬਨਾਈ ॥ ਦਈਤ ਰਚੇ ਦੁਸਟ ਦੁਖਦਾਈ ॥ When I created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daityas. ਤੇ ਭੁਜ ਬਲ ਬਵਰੇ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਏ ॥ ਪੂਜਤ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਰਹਿ ਗਏ ॥੬॥ Who became mad with power and abandoned the worship of Supreme Purusha.6. ਤੇ ਹਮ ਤਮਕਿ ਤਨਕ ਮੋ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਥਾਪੇ ॥ I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place. ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥ They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7. ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥ Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme. ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥ Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8. ਤਬ ਸਾਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਸਟ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਦੇਬੇ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity. ਤੇ ਕਹੈ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੯॥ But they considered themselves all in all and aasked the people to worship them.9. ਪਰਮ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜਿਨ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਰਿ ਈਸਰ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥ Those who did not comprehend the Lord, they were considered as Ishvara. ਕੇਤੇ ਸੂਰ ਚੰਦ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਹੋਤ੍ਰ ਕਈ ਪਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨੈ ॥੧੦॥ Several people worshipped the sun and the moon and several others worshipped Fire and Ait.10. ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਜਲ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਧਾਨਾ ॥ Several them considered God as stone and several others bathed considering the Lordship of Water. ਕੇਤਕ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਡਰਪਾਨਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਧਰਮ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੧੧॥ Considering Dharmaraja as the Supreme representative of Dharma, several bore fear of him in their actions. 11. ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥ All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme. ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਸਰ ਜਾਤੀ ਭੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਪਰਤ ਸੋਭ ਭੀ ॥੧੨॥ They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12 ਜਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਿਨੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਇਨ ਮਨੁਛਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਨਾ ॥ When they did not comprehend the Lord, then I established human beings in their place.

Oh N30Singh! This is not Gurmat form of Prema Bhagti and Guru Sahib in Gurbani can never sanction such an Anti-Gurmat principle. This one soul thinking is akin to vedant philosophy of “I am god”. The supreme gurmat philosophy is different. As per gurbani there is One Supreme Lord who has given birth to countless souls, each jeevatma has come forth from the supreme One’s light, and the Lord is in all hearts, this is how we are jot saroop. We are all made of the same clay, but if a tiny piece of clay were to say I am source from where all the clay is, that would be totally wrong right? gur prswdI ieku ndrI AwieAw hau siqgur ivthu vqwieAw jIau ]3] gur parasaadhee eik nadharee aaeiaa ho sathigur vittahu vathaaeiaa jeeo |3| By Guru's Grace, I have come to see the One. I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. ||3|| Now where does Satguru ji come into all this with the vedant philosophy, where supposedly this whole time the soul was god ? Sri Jap ji sahib pauri which talks about karam khand and sackhand: iqQY Bgq vsih ky loA ] thithai bhagath vasehi kae loa | The devotees of many worlds dwell there. If there is only one soul that exists then why does gurbani say the one lord is the MASTER of all these beings? swcw swhbu eyku qU hoir jIAw kyqy loA ]3] saachaa saahab eaek thoo hor jeeaa kaethae loa |3| You are the One True Lord and Master of all the other beings, of so many worlds. ||3|| MY essence merges into God’s essence, so basically soul merges into the supreme soul, not “the soul realises it was actually god all this” time vedant vichaar: eykY kink Aink Bwiq swjI bhu prkwr rcwieE ] eaekai kanik anik bhaath saajee bahu parakaar rachaaeiou | The same gold is fashioned into various articles; just so, the Lord has made the many patterns of the creation. khu nwnk Brmu guir KoeI hY iev qqY qqu imlwieE ]4]2]123] kahu naanak bharam gur khoee hai eiv thathai thath milaaeiou |4|2|123| Says Nanak, the Guru has dispelled my doubt; in this way, my essence merges into God's essence. ||4||2||123|| The fact that two are mentioned i.e. Vaheguru and the Jeev proves that the Jeev is not Vaheguru. This Shabad talks about the merger between Vaheguru and the Jeev. It does not say that the Jeev is Vaheguru: qohI mohI mohI qohI AMqru kYsw ] thohee mohee mohee thohee anthar kaisaa | You are me, and I am You-what is the difference between us? knk kitk jl qrMg jYsw ]1] kanak kattik jal tharang jaisaa |1| We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves. ||1|| jau pY hm n pwp krMqw Ahy Anµqw ] jo pai ham n paap karanthaa ahae ananthaa | If I did not commit any sins, O Infinite Lord, piqq pwvn nwmu kYsy huMqw ]1] rhwau ] pathith paavan naam kaisae hunthaa |1| rehaao | how would You have acquired the name, 'Redeemer of sinners'? ||1||Pause||

Perhaps more accurate description of bhramgyani is to say there is no indivuality left (haume) but the soul is still there. The drop doesn't actually dissapear in the ocean it's still there but completely lost and absorbed in the ocean. The soul doesn't "die" more like the ego dies and the drop in ocean like soul is still aware and fully in bliss. Think about it, if vaheguru is aware and in bliss, then the one who has mearged in him must also be aware and in bliss of vaheguru! Any gursikh/mahapurash who says different about their experience may be experiencing something of a lower level i.e. "sunn" as descirbed in hinudism.

Scali ji, I take it as even if he were to believe himself or promote himself to be god bhai sahib wouldn't place any faith on him. I think it's abit negative to take it as if the sadh was actually rab himself bhai sahib wouldn't have any faith on him. It's more like a saying.

lol sorry if you took it as a cheap shot. It's just you post these types of things alot which makes Vaheguru seem impersonal and sikhi less about prem towards vaheguru so I mentioned your name automatically when making that point. Apoligies. I didn't like the way you said "regardless of getting brahmgyaan" making it out as brahmyani avastha is different from guru sahib's sikh. Anyway to sort of finalise this discussion: We must remember those who use or listen to their mind is labelled "manmukh" in gurbani and only those who listen to and FULLY accept gurbani are Gurmukhs. So thinking with gyan still makes you a manmukh. We need something else to connect us to Vaheguru i.e. NaamShabad and Gurbani. So I would like to add this pauri which is commonly read by many gursikhs which I think is revelant to this discussion and will hopefully show some of my points that Vaheguru is not creation (although he is secretly mearged into it) and our aim is to become fully one WITH Vaheguru but not the Vaheguru himself i.e. the drop is fully mearged in the ocean but it does not mean the drop in itself is the actual ocean (please understand this point instead of trying to twist it). Although countless tuks and shabads could be posted I think this asa di war pauri which is commonly read will be a good choice: pauVI ] pourree || Pauree: AwpIn@Y Awpu swijE AwpIn@Y ricE nwau ] aapeenhai aap saajiou aapeenhai rachiou naao || He Himself created Himself; He Himself assumed His Name. duXI kudriq swjIAY kir Awsxu ifTo cwau ] dhuyee kudharath saajeeai kar aasan ddit(h)o chaao || Secondly, He fashioned the creation; seated within the creation, He beholds it with delight. dwqw krqw Awip qUM quis dyvih krih pswau ] dhaathaa karathaa aap thoo thus dhaevehi karehi pasaao || You Yourself are the Giver and the Creator; by Your Pleasure, You bestow Your Mercy. qUM jwxoeI sBsY dy lYsih ijMdu kvwau ] thoo jaanoee sabhasai dhae laisehi ji(n)dh kavaao || You are the Knower of all; You give life, and take it away again with a word. kir Awsxu ifTo cwau ]1] kar aasan ddit(h)o chaao ||1|| Seated within the creation, You behold it with delight. ||1|| So it's Vaheguru's own hukum which works not our personal thinking...

Dear Scali, maya is very deceptive, you may be attracting what you think of or believe or whatever but do not make the mistake that thinking will get one to waheguru. Only through the udham of naam japna with love and concentration and ultimately pooran kirpa of Guru Sahib when he is kush with our efforts (these philosphies keep forgetting guru sahib in our journey to meeting vaheguru) do we meet Vaheguru ji. Please do not add or twist things regarding what you said about Bhai Randhir Singh. Before bhai sahib took amrit and entered the school of sikhi he followed a "sant" around for a few days because at that time bhai sahib was particularly reading alot of bhagat bani where the importance of "sant" was mentioned baar baar. Bhai Sahib refused to see him ever again because the sikh principle of not smoking was being violated by this so called sant. I don't know where you get this "even if he is GOD I dont care". Of course bhai soon enough realised the truest and highest sant is Guru Sahib himself...