fightingsingh

shastar vidya is a load of rubbish. Learn how to dance around with 16th century weapons.... oh yeh thats really practical isnt it? Its no different from those karate and kung fu boys that dance around in funny costumes and spend 30 years doing it but get slapped up like little kids when they get into a real confrontation. shastar vidya - yeh it looks attractive, alluring and too good to be true. In reality its no different from all the other fake con martial arts that you find out there. Its more suited to wierdo geeks that want to dress up like Nihangs with the full kitchen set and post pictures on facebook than real fighters..... makes me laugh when I see them. They remind of me of some geeks I used to know at Uni that did ninjitsu and thought they had some secret deadly knowlege and used to train in black masks etc. What a joke!

Tru say. What I meant was that these are questions that I have ... not necessarily that such personal info will be divulged here.

Definitely. Remember the Indian agencies work in all kinds of different ways... divide and rule.. giving people tip offs so that they act and in doing so fulfil a certain agenda. Sometimes they frame people. They also work through Sikh organisations and institutions. The influx of babeh from India in the last few years must have carried with it a level of infiltration and seeing that there alot of people who do their bidding without question, it makes them vulnerable to exploited by shady individuals with links to the government. My questions are: Who tipped off the Singhs regarding Brar's movements? Which jathebandi are the Singhs involved with? If they were directed to act, who directed them and what are their links? Why were these particular individuals chosen for the task/ what were their merits? Why did they make such a lame/ half hearted attempt on brar?

yeh but that wouldnt be a big surprise to me to be honest. Lets face it, most UK youth are not trained experts, and even the ones who make up the front line in panthic activism fight more like hoodlum yobs than trained assassins. Its not easy to kill someone who is fighting back unless you are very confident and know what you are doing. I give props to the guys who had the guts to attempt something like this and for sending out a message, however, still bitterly disappointed that they were not able to finish the job. Still they are bigger men than I am!

The formation of this new jatha basically just seems like the hardcore taksalis are splitting off from the federation. To be honest I think this is good for the federation as they are shedding excess baggage and will give them the freedom to actually get some constructive work done and actually make a difference to the community and the Panth. If you enjoy meaningless mumbo jumbo and the endless, circular dirty politics of Punjab, then you may take a keen interest in what the Dharam Yudh Jatha have to say. Dont get me wrong, the Federation is heavily political and a bit rough around the edges, however, it has a strong root in the UK Sikh Community, made up of normal, common UK-based Sikhs who became involved because of the pain of 1984 and the desire to do something about it. The Taksali infiltrations over the last 15-20 years have done alot of damage to the Federation, more then they could possibly imagine. I will be surprised if the Dharam Yudh Jatha lasts very long at all and certainly dont think that it will have any influence over mainstream Sikh politics outside of Tividale. No doubt the large number of Taksali youth that have gone over to it will become disillusioned with it when they realise that nothing is really happening and one of their babeh gets exposed in another sex scandal.

I like your attitude. There is an interesting balance confirming to cultural trends whilst also maintaining individuality and a sense of confidence in ones own skin.

There is no excuse in a country like America why Sikhs should not keep firearms. At least one firearm should be kept on Gurdwara property, the responsibility of which should be entrusted with a respected member of the commitee or a respected Gursikh/sewadaar. This should not be a difficult thing to organise and given the hostile climate in which US Sikhs live, it is not a far-fetched precaution to take. There is no reason why every Sikh home should not keep a firearm in the house as well, particularly in the US. Even in the UK, it is very easy to obtain a shotgun license. All you need is £50, a shotgun certificate from a police station, an approved bolted down cabinet in your home, no criminal convictions or mental health disorders, and a quick short interview with a visiting police officer to state why you want to keep a gun. For this, you may state that you want to use it for hunting, clay pigeon shooting, target shooting, pest control or rough shooting on farm land that belongs to a friend of yours. No evidence needs to be provided for these. This is in contrast to a firearms lisence (rifles, handguns etc) which are much harder to get hold of and you have to provide evidence of membership to a gun club. No such evidence is required in order to buy a shotgun. Guns which you can obtain under a shotgun lisence include single shot, double barrelled shotgun, and up to three shot pump action shotguns. You can buy second hand shotguns from £60-£100. If people feel uncomfortable with firearms, then at least consider crossbows, 3ft kirpans, machetes, slingshots and lathis. Even in the UK, we need to keep a few bits and bobs in the Gurdwareh and at home. Its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Moreover, firing shotguns for sport is great fun and an enjoyable hobby

Its very hard to enforce like I said. For the Sikh Council to enforce it, it will basically result in the collapse of the Sikh Council. You basically need a separate body to do it if you really think that it is necessary. However, the body should reflect the views of Akal Takhat Sahib rather than just say the Taksal, for example. It needs to be more diverse in representation regarding its membership jathe as opposed to for example the current satkar commitee. Representation of only the Akal Takhat Sahib will carry much more clout and respect in our community than say a small splinter group led by a baba or a single jatha. Its far too easy to dimiss those as just being small violent and extremist fringes that are trying to bring Sikhi back into the dark ages (the opinion of many moderates), hence, if the groups rep only the Akal Takhat Sahib it is much harder to make that allegation.The focus should be on raising awareness and soft enforcement of Akal Takhat Maryada and Akal Takhat hukamnamas via application of peaceful pressure (eg letters), media exposure, name and shame and boycotting of non-compliants. Where appropriate, peaceful protests can be used, however, we dont have a great track record of peaceful protests as they usually turn violent because some of our guys get provoked and cant control themselves. The subsequent violence then totally undermines the positive message behind the protest. Thats why I think protesting isnt always a great idea unless we can force ourselves to be very disciplined and maintain a civilised and peaceful image. As a long term strategy, and something that the Sikh Council could certainly do is to work with the government and try to get laws passed which protect Sikh rights, including certain conditions which prevent beadbi in gurdwaras on account of their inflammatory nature and potential for causing law and order problems. Like someone mentioned above, the strongest weapon we have is public opinion so our best tool for changing that is our UK based Sikh channels and the internet so we should use those to our fullest advantage and watch the changes take place slowly and naturally.

It will be down to self governence. At the end of the day, Akal Takhat directives are there to be followed and not enforced. People should have the good sense to avoid gurdwaras built on caste lines and boycotting of these gurdwaras is enough if they do not comply.... in the same way we cant go around burning down the Nirankari deras all over the world, we can choose to boycott them. Kirtanis, dhadis and sangat can refuse to attend those gurdwaras that do not comply with maryada and awareness of the directives can be widely circulated. You cant really do much more than that. It is not necessary or practical for the Sikh Council to enforce rules on its membership. When the Sikh Council was created, many gurdwareh and other organisations only joined on the shared understanding that the Council would not be there to enforce political or religious views and/or maryada on any of the gurdwareh or other organisations (eg sitting on the floor for langar). Since the Council has been created to provide a strong and united platform from which issues affecting all Sikhs in the UK can be addressed, it does not make sense for the Council to weaken itself by chasing after its own membership with a big stick and trying to police it. That would only mean that the unhappy gurdwaras and organisations would leave, create more divisions in the community and weaken the national voice. Those that wish to see the Council policing gurdwaras and enforcing maryada are either very short-sighted, blindy following their own agenda without looking at the bigger picture, despite having good intentions. Or, they are downright mischievous and want to split up and weaken the Sikh Council so that the national voice is weak. The Akal Takhat Sahib has already set the rules. Its up to individual Sikhs and gurdwaras to decide if they want to follow them or not. The best thing to do is raise awareness and apply peaceful pressure on those who do not comply in the hope that they will see sense and also choose to comply. Enforcement is not possible as we dont have the legal backing for this in the UK and we will end up looking like the bad guys like we do every time one of these enforcement cases comes up in the News. If there are people out there that consider this to be too weak and want strong enforcement, then please dont harass organisations like the Sikh Council. There is nothing stopping you from just going out there and doing it yourself. However, dont be surprised if you are labelled as extremists and the majority of the community turns its back on you and with criminal records and prison sentences to look forward to.

nIce post... nice to get back to basics... sikhi is all about the basics!

I dont believe they are racist. As an organisation, they have stated that they are against fundamentalist Islam and the domination and Islamification of Britain. Muslims are a very pushy group who are constantly trying to suit themselves at all levels. EDL have stated that they only have a problem with extremist Muslims and tackle issues where there are institutionalised and inbuilt problems in the Muslim Community such as grooming, paedophilia etc. People tarnish them as racist and say that they are only forming alliances with Sikhs etc so that they can deal with Muslims with first and deal with other communities after. There is no evidence of this, certainly form their rhetoric. At the end of the day, they are there to provide a voice for white British people who are fed up with having to live with Muslim domination in their neighbourhoods. They would only come after Sikhs if we started behaving in the same way and causing problems in their country. By and large, and with the exception of a few nutters, we keep a low profile and dont get ourselves into too much trouble, which is the right way to be. The Muslims only have themselves to blame for the rise of groups like the EDL. If law-abiding Muslims who want to live peacefully dont condone the behaviour of their kin who are causing all of these issues then they should be combating these issues in their own community and speaking out against them.

Very interesting videos. Please post more. It reminds me of how brutal, wierd, confusing and complex those days were for the people of Punjab.

lol i thort u mite

yeh nothing to do with sikhi bro just general interest... iv never seen anyone get attacked by a sword so when i saw it i was like <banned word filter activated>! gotta post this on sikhsangat lol

'His head was hacked from his body and impaled on the community centre gate as a warning.' Woah that sounds pretty brutal! I have mixed emotions to that!

lol erm I hope not. I dont even know what jagbani is. I just came across the link to the video and posted it. There is no need to be so paranoid and rude!

http://www.jagbani.com/news/jagbani_95335/#photo/73853

They already are. Look up lions mma in the UK.

I agree with a lot of your points. By describing the UK vigilante groups in the way that I did, I was not looking to disrespect them or their efforts for the community. However, I was simply trying to categorise them on the 'martial scale'. Merely pointing out that they are tough guys from the streets rather than a trained organised unit. I also was not demeaning their role or their importance for the community regarding battling Pakistani gangs or having a physical presence on the streets. Obviously, their existence and activity opens up a whole new debate about what is the best strategy to tackle some of the challenges that our community faces in the UK. This raises questions such as, are vigilante groups the answer to the grooming problem? How does it portray our community in the media? What effects does their existence have on community relations and what impact does it have on ordinary Sikhs living their lives? Are we barking up the right tree by turning the grooming issue into a communal problem? The point that you raised about Sikhs having stomach for all-out war in India, is also relevant in the UK. Will these groups start off a race war that our community cannot win and is doomed to lose? People have different opinions on these individuals. Some regard them to be heroes and others regard them as trouble makers. I am not claming to have the answer to all of these questions but it is important to ask them before we reach a consensus. Clearly, the role of vigilante groups must be discussed in the context of solving wider issues that affect the Uk Sikh community. I agree with you that we as UK residents should get our own house in order first before we think about solving problems in India. Regarding India, I totally agree that all-out war with India is a bad thing for the Sikhs as we are not ready for it and would come out of it badly. We suffered tremendously last time and we would suffer even worse this time. Again this opens up a whole new debate about what the agenda should be for Sikhs in India. For me, I believe that Sikhs should consolidate their position in India in order to safeguard their rights. This means that we need to prioritise economic growth in Punjab. We need a greater level of Sikh parchaar in Punjab to increase the number of Sikhs. We need stronger Sikh institutions such as schools etc.... we basically need more power full stop. If we are going to safeguard our rights, then it has to be on back of smart diplomacy, smart strategy, greater vision and a desire to integrate with the Indian systems, rebuild our networks and channels and use the system to our advantage. I believe that we need to put Khalistan and Human Rights issues on a slight back burner as its not really getting anywhere and these are a barrier to progress. The same rhetoric has been spiralled for 30 years round and round like a goldfish bowl and it has not gone anywhere. Im not saying that these campaigns should stop, they can continue at a lesser pace so that other campaigns can develop. After all, no one is going to give the Sikhs a homeland on a plate. It is a long term strategy that can only be achieved if the community is strong and we have overcome issues of cohesion, infighting and loyalty that, as you have already mentioned, we are already battling. We also need greater numbers, greater political influence, greater economic might and stronger institutions - none of which can be developed if we go to war with India. In fact, we need the total opposite. The point about the armed forces - we will have to agree to disagree. I see the armed forces as an investment for the future. It is a resource that we should try to infiltrate, influence and tap in to in order to fulfil our own agenda. Sure, the establishment and government will also be working hard to retain their influence over it as well and monitoring it very carefully, but to me, this is just part of the battle. It is a power game like all the others - who can exert their influence over it the most, that is the question.

Yes in the UK, I agree. Obviously we need to make a distinction between the level of threat in the UK and in India. In the UK, we were targeted by thugs on the street - either NF gangs or Pak gangs. To counter that, we just needed a group of rough and tough street fighters of our own. No military/police or martial arts experience necessary. All that is required is some balls and the willingness to use violence if required. However, in India, when faced by military and paramilitary opponents, then the level of knowledge and expertise has to be upgraded to that level. We need ex-servicemen to organise and provide training and we need serving soldiers and/or police to provide information etc from the inside. True about what you say about Brar, KPS Gill and other indoctrinated lap dogs. But there are countless examples of ex-military Sikhs who contributed to Sikh causes. From Kishan Singh Garrgaj of Babbar Akalis fighting against the British in the 1920s to General Subeg Singh, Satwant Singh and Beant Singh, General Labh Singh, Simranjit Singh Mann, Dilawar Singh Babbar and Bhai Rajoana. These type of guys may well be in a minority but they are an important contributing minority. If anything, this just demonstrates to me that Sikh organisations and jathebandian should be nurturing strong links with Sikhs in the military and trying to develop a certain influence over them so that they can be brought on board for Sikh causes. Regarding the point about about Sikhs, World War Two and losing so much territory, I think that this a very complex area and a subject in itself. The reasons why we lost out in 1947 and why the Kharkoo movement failed from 1984-1995 is a very interesting debate and maybe one for another time. However, I certainly would not put that down to the fact that we had 'too many' Sikhs in the army. The strong military presence can swing in either direction. It is a power base that must be tapped into and influenced. Take the World War Two example. We had all these 'indoctrinated' Sikhs fighting for Britain. But what of all the thousands of Sikhs who then switched sides and joined the INA and decided to fight against the British? Clearly something happened in their minds and they made the switch. What of the Sikhs in the military and police in 84... people like Rajoana and Beant Singh who had taken oaths to serve India but turned on their leaders and commanding officers? There is clearly a downside to being in the military as you have explained. However, where else are you going to get firearms training? Where else are you going to learn the skills of modern warfare? From the perspective of Sikh causes, I see the military purely as a training ground to learn military skills which may one day be useful for the Panth. It is also a tappable resource that can be infiltrated and influenced for our own agenda. If we do not attempt to do this, then we only have ourselves to blame when the Sikhs in the military are unwilling or diinterested about coming on board for Panthic causes.

Personally I'm in favour of military sevice/experience. As dalsingh101 pointed out. there is the problem of being used to fight other peoples' causes. There is also an element of indoctrination that takes place in the military regarding nationalism and nationalist causes... ie Sikhs in the modern Indian Army are more likely to see themselves as Indian and protectors of the country as they have sworn an oath and are unlikely to support any Sikh causes. If you look at reports of Sikh troops who mutinied in 1984, some of the reasons given were that they were new recruits who were still raw and not enough time had been given for full naturalisation and indoctrination to take place. Having said that, I believe that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. From a community protection point of view, people like Major General Subeg Singh, did great sewa for the community, as did other military trained personnel who identified with and helped to organise the Sikh cause. Their military knowledge and experience was put to great use. The same thing happened in the 1947 partition, one of the reasons that we were able to hold our own, was because of the large percentage of servicemen in our community who organised and formed jathas to protect us. Clearly, people who have served in the military, are going to be alot better at this kind of thing than people who just sit behind a desk and fix computers. Also, a strong military presence instils a sense of pride in the community. Bravery, honour, discipline winning medals etc... whether you agree about Sikhs fighting for the British or not, Sikhs living in Britain have done well on the back of that investment and it is because of those investments and sacrifices that we enjoy certain freedoms in Britain, that we probably dont enjoy anywhere else. So I would say a big YES to the military. Even if Sikhs dont sign up for full-time service, there are lots of opportunities in the Territorial Army/Reserves and Cadet Forces. Also, there are the Police reserves or specials. These give the best of both worlds really... exposure to military/paramliitary training, but allow you do stay with your family and leaves you enough time to do your main job full-time. Having said that, the whole military thing is not for everyone. As I said in my previous posts, there are numerous ways that we can inject martial living in our lives. Its down to the individual how they want to go about expressing that warrior side and nurturing it inside of them. However, one thing is for certain. If you do absolutely nothing and invest no time into it, dont be surprised if you crumble and melt in the face of high pressure or conflict. Warriors are forged through fire, not born. Train hard, fight easy. Bruuuuuuuah

Some very good points here. 'In peace prepare for war. In war prepare to peace.' - Sun Tzu The problem with our community as a whole is that during peace we dont prepare for war. We are slow to react to events. History has shown that when a sufficient stimulus has been applied to us, we do respond, albeit very slowly. If you look at 1947 partition, it took Sikhs about 6 months to a year to react to Muslim attacks and organise themselves into jathas and protect the community. When they finally got their act together they did ok but too much damage had already been done. In 1984, after the Darbar Sahib attack and Delhi riots, it took Sikhs two years to get something together. It wasnt until 1986, that the Panthic Commitee was formed and the Kharku movement was properly organised and put into action. A smaller example relates to racist attacks on Sikhs from the NF in the UK in the 70s and 80s. Again, it took our community years of racist abuse and attacks before people started to get their act together. 'It also strikes at the notion that some peoples are innately 'martial' and this manifests itself naturally where ever they may be.' Yes to the above, it almost certainly does. I dont believe that we should take our 'martial heritage' for granted. Noone is born a great warrior. It does not surprise me to see 'emasculated Sikh males' nowadays. People only become 'tough' if they are exposed to certain stimuli, namely conflict/violence. Some people get it through military training, others through martial arts and others still just by living in a rough neighbourhood - there are many ways. However, one thing is for certain, you dont become 'tough' just because your ancestors were 'tough'. If you havent been exposed to the same stimuli you just wont be the same person. The context of 'martialness' that we are talking about now is Community Safety. It relates to how will our community respond when the shyte hits the fan. It is a complex and multi-faceted strategy. It involves everything from quick information exchange and getting people together quickly to what statements will our leaders be issuing in the press to calm tensions and how we will use our links with the police, politicians and counsellors to step in asap. As an example, in the 84 riots, the Sikh community in Mumbai paid off the Hindu Extremist Groups (Shiv Sena etc) to ensure that Sikhs were not killed there. Community safety strategies have as much to do with calming things down and easing tensions as they do with mobilising groups to smash peoples heads in. Unfortunately, we dont take these kind of things seriously. Iv tried talking about this to people in Gurdwaras etc and they just look at you as if you just stumbled off a banana boat. Its no surprise that when the shyte does hit the fan, Sikhs hit the streets in blind rage and waving naked kirpans, only to end up getting battered and running off. What more can you expect from angry civilians who have never thrown a punch let alone stabbed anyone with a sword. Then we all moan and cry about how Sikhs have lost their martial spirit and things are not how they used to be. The key is organisation and prior planning. We seem to have this in-built superiority complex that we are a martial race so we dont need to plan for anything. Having said that, I was impressed to see how Sikhs managed to mobilise during the UK riots last summer. There were regular facebook updates and texts going around and people were able to get together quickly around the Gurdwaras and respond quickly to threats. This kind of thing is a step in the right direction, certainly in the UK. Regarding exposure to violence/conflict - this is very difficult for most people. Especially for a community that is becoming increasing affluent and middle class. But there are still ways - martial arts, combatives, TA, cadets, contact sports, seeking out certain jobs that bring on conflict such as door/security work and police work (or police specials). But this is geared more towards the individual that is seeking out experiences that will make them more 'martial'. I doubt that much will change. We seem to be going through the same patterns over and over again. Its genocide after genocide with us. Nobody wants to think about how to plan about stopping the nxt one.

I would say that we are weak everywhere. We suffer from serious lack of strategy and vision. As you have stated in your other posts, we have a terrible victim mentality and we enslave ourselves by not attempting to think outside the box and actively looking to provide solutions to our problems

Sikhs are just the same as any other community. The majority of our members are civilians (non-martial) and we have a proportion of our population who are involved in the military and may be considered 'martial' - this is no different to any other community. Then you have non-military/police personnel who you may regard as 'martial' but are actually civilians. They could include practicing martial artists or pro fighters. Others could be people that work in front line security such as doormen, security guards and bodyguards. Others could be political and religious activists. Most of them are not necessarily trained fighters. In this group I would include Kharkus of the 80s. They would also include activists associated with certain jathebandian such as some followers of Taksal or followers of Baljeet Singh Daduwal for example. Also groups who campaign against beadbi such as the Respect for SGGS campaign. Then you have street gangs like Shere Punjab fighting against Muslims and stopping exploitation of Sikh girls etc. After that, you are really scraping the barrel with the last group, who I would simply describe as thugs. Individuals who basically just like to brawl and are not scared of doing so. I would place sharabi punjabis that fight in bars and clubs in this category lol. The above is my breakdown of what I regard to be martial in this day and age. Clearly, we as a community are not fighting for survival like we were 200 years ago against the Mughals etc. We have diversified our professions from being purely warriors to undertaking a variety of professions. Most people nowadays have no real reason or motivation to be martial unless they are in the military or categorised in one of the groups that I have mentioned above. It is hardly surprising that Sikhs are not as martial as they used to be. Neither is any other community. They all have the same kind of cross-section that we do. Pathans are living in a war zone and their pattern of existence is no different to how it has been for hundreds of years. Hence you have a greater level of firearm ownership amongst them. They live in a tribal environment so it is necessary for ordinary civilians to protect themselves as such. Thats not to say that they are any better at fighting than anyone else. Its just that things have not moved on for them. They are still trying to meet basic needs and survive on daily basis. The difference with Sikhs is that 'martial' is strongly embedded in our faith and our teachings but not so much in other faiths. However, it is unrealistic to expect every Sikh to be a dangerous warrior when the stimulus to do so simply does not exist in the way that it did 200-300 years ago.