UKLondonSikh

A poster from the website of Shromani Akali Dal Amritsar depicting whom the Shromani Akali Dal (Amritsar) sees the partners in the crime against Sikh Quom .

UKL = Paji i think that exposes why SAD (Amritsar) are not taken seriously and don't muster 1% of MLA's. By falsely accusing Talwandi, Longowal and Tohra of being complicit in the most anti-Sikh desecration of the 20th Century is a disgrace, when people on the ground and constituents of the aforementioned can see otherwise. Instead of SAD (Amritsar) accusing fellow Sikhs wose life actions for the Panth speak for themselves they should concentrate on what we can all unitedly now do 30 years later to get our Qaum out of the mess we are in since 1984.

lsingh, on 07 Feb 2014 - 20:50, said:

What are the next steps to take after the release of the report?

UKL = We the UK based Sikh Panth should unite and with a 500,000 plus voice demand reparations from the Treasury for the UK Government's complicity in the Genocide of Sikhs.

JasSinghKhalsa, on 07 Feb 2014 - 20:55, said:

WHAT Should Sikh organsations do to get Justice !!!

The answer is crystal clear Paji. The review etc isn't even good enough. We need a minimum of £100million plus reparations (in the form of international development funding by the UK Government) ploughed into community projects in Punjab for the upliftment of poor Sikhs suffering illiteracy, cancer, infanticide, social discrimination, drugs, alcohol (and the surviving victims of the Genocide against Sikhs launched by Indira Gandhi and her son Rajiv) etc ... given the then UK Government's assistance in the Genocide against Sikhs. The Sikh Council UK, Kesri Lehar, Sikhs for Justice, Sikh Federation UK etc need to join hands to actively and aggressively lobby for this £100million compensation by June 2014 to mark 30years and we can push them on that.

The Department for International Development regularly doles out billions overseas (around £9billion globally last year) so the Sikh Qaum should be able to secure this if we try and we effectively lobby for it with one united voice as this is common sense.

I do not advocate any fool burns the Union Jack as a way of getting our point across (as i suspect GOI will try defame us like that).

Should we not succeed in getting Cameron to commit £100million to help those suffering various problems in Punjab etc we can always play our own part in making 2014 a year of meaningful progression for our Panth to mark 30 years of hurt.

With the painful history of 1984 and the Genocide occurred and there's nothing we can do to turn back time now.

However, 30 years on what we youth in the West can certainly do is set ourselves aims and objectives as members of the Sikh Panth to hit the following targets for Panthic upliftment by combatting drugs, alcohol, biraderi, infanticide, illiteracy, cancer and poverty. All bakhre bakhre Gurdware must be merged as soon as possible.

UK Sangat to raise £30 million plus by June 2014

Canadian Sangat to C$30 million plus by June 2014

American Sangat to raise $30 million plus by June 2014

Other Diaspora Countries Sangat should target $10million plus by June 2014

India-based Sangat could arguably raise R300crores plus by June 2014

And with an eventual target of national Panj Pyaaray representatives from each country handing over their respective nation Sangat's cheques to the SGPC for firewalled projects for Panthic Upliftment in combatting drugs, alcohol, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy, cancer and poverty and every penny of the funds presented to SGPC in June 2014 being watched over by auditors to confirm that Badal Dal cannot access, use or waste a single penny of the funds raised by Sangat, thereby transforming SGPC into a clean saanjha charitable vehicle for the Upliftment of the Poor and management of United Gurdwara's as it was always intended.

Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj must be translated into Tamil, Bengali, Oriya, Telugu etc, etc to get the Truth of what Sikhi represents out there further.

Rather than just remembering the past, we need to actively attack the current silent Genocide occuring via infanticide, drugs, cancer, illiteracy, biraderi and poverty.

Let's hear every forum members idea's on how we actually make this happen. Let's all contact Sikh organisations and us as Sangat try spread this agenda like a virus!

Maybe spend the money on giving the locals literature about Sikhs and their contributions to Africa.

It's a big problem that our own people are ignorant about our own religion let alone others. More parchar needed worldwide.

Well said L.Singh Ji. Instead of wasting money on a worthless statue (as our Qaum does on the structure of religious buildings contrary to Gurmat) the Kisumu Sikhs would have been better advised to direct the money wasted on such a statue into local community seva. Furthermore perhaps uniting the factionalised Gurdware in Kisumu into one merged United Gurdwara with greater representation of local African Sikhs on the committee would have marked the occasion more fittingly.

One thing is clear, every penny wasted on "pomp" should go instead towards things with a long term seva legacy relating to health, education, societal upliftment and parchaar.

Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to clear this up with everyone. General Zorawar Singh Kahluria was Hindu.... the idea of him being Sikh is a recent concoction. Please all fake, brainwashed Sikhs, Stop trying to divide Hindus and Sikhs. People afraid of accepting his hindu faith are trying to label him as a Sikh now.

UKL = If someone ever bows before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj they are thus Sikh (including yourself). Even the name Zorawar Singh should be instructive to you given that in those times the Hindu Rajputs of the Kahluria clan from Bilaspur region would not generally keep names as closely associated with Sikh history as Zorawar. The fact is that it is Hindu Rajputs who are afraid of the wider public recognising Zorawar Singh (Kahluria) as a Sikh General of the Khalsa Fauj. My understanding is that even the name Zorawar Singh was taken by him upon Amrit (at which point he shed his erstwhile clan ancestry forever).

Im not trolling. The video you uploaded is wrong about his religion. He was a hindu rajput. Its so funny how this guy is trying to label him a sikh. This idea is a recent concoction. He was a hindu dogra and he fought under gulab singh. This documentary is another sad desperate attempt to make him seem lkke a sikh to take away the glory of a hindu rajput, this guy cant stand a hindu rajput being so elevated in ranjits army. Kahlurias are hindus even now.

UKL = Kahluria's mainly being Hindu nowadays (as they always were) does not mean that those of Kahluria ancestry did not become Sikh and renounce their erstwhile ancestry as members of united casteless Khalsa Panth. Zorawar Singh was not a Dogra and nor from Jammu, as i understand, since he was born in the area between Bilaspur and Sri Anandpur Sahib. The ancient name of Bilaspur is Kahlur of course and thus Kahluria is a geographic name indicating that he was not was neither Dogra and nor from Jammu and in likelihood not Hindu at the end of his life either.

The funniest thing about this dr is when he talks about banda singh bahadur savig sikhs and how sikhs are so great for saving hindus as if sikhs came from the sky and were not sving their own people.

Saving hindus*

UKL = The Khalsa Panth is there for the service to the defenceless within ALL of humanity (Sarbat Da Bhalla). If Hindu's were the innocent victims of Aurangzeb in Kashmir, for example, that does not mean that the Khalsa Panth did not defend Jains or Budhhists or even innocent Muslims elsewhere for that matter.

i dont know how you think your some new type of people

UKL = The Khalsa Panth are exactly that. The first Panj Pyaaray arose across all of present day India and Pakistan from one of our first Khalsa being from a Dravidian background in South India ... to another of the Panj Pyaaray being from Gujarat ... and yet another being Orissa ... and another from Hastinapur ... all of our Panj Pyaaray and all subsequent members of the Khalsa Panth believe in the ideology of "kul nash" i.e. no belief or attachment to one's erstwhile clan or caste or tribal identity.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66388-four-of-the-5-pyaaray-were-not-punjabi/

hell the gurus didnt even run from it i dont know why your trying so hard

UKL = Guru Sahib themselves advocated kul nash and created the Khalsa Panth according to Gurmat which totally opposes pride in one's ancestry.

show me one sikh kahluria

UKL = Amritdhari Sikhs cease to belong to their erstwhile ancestry grouping upon become members of the Khalsa Panth.

u take a dogra hindu general

UKL = How could Zorawar Singh be a Dogra when born in the area between Bilaspur and Anandpur Sahib and especially so since the Kahluria clan are not from Jammu

you do know that there are sikh bhattis, muslim bhattis and hindu bhattis right

UKL = The vast majority of Bhatti's are Pakistan Muslim Rajputs.

Even my family were originally Hindu only a few generations ago. No one is saying Hindus are bad and Sikhs are good.

But Jonny Paji i think the logic being used by our Bachittar Natak believing friend is that because your ancestors were Hindu a couple of generations back, until the parchaar by Giani Ditt Singh Ji's Singh Sabha then you must likely be Hindu as well despite it being 2014 (despite your opposition to Hindu Mahants as Sardar Kartar Singh Jhabbar bravely exemplified).

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/73676-why-dont-we-have-a-gurdwara-with-dasam-granth-sahibji-parkash-in-ontario/

anyways, from my perspective sikhs are REAL hindus.. i believe that sikhism is re-established hinduism as it was meant to be. the gurus came and clarified everything.

UKL = Ok that's good that you belief Sikhi to be true Sanatan Dharma whereas you consider Hinduism a corrupted form of Sanatan Dharma. Then why not accept that you are Sikh and that all Hindu's should ditch usage of the Arabic term (for a dark-skinned slave/thief) of Hindu and define themselves by the Sanskrit term of Sikh whose motto is Sarbat Da Bhala, Naam Japo, Kirat Karo, Vand Chhako.

the other thing is that nowadays sikhs are anti-hindu like 1million of your comments pronounce you to be.

UKL = Sikhs are not anti-Hindu in any way, shape or form. Most so-called Hindu's are actually natural born Sikhs (albeit they may be sehajdhari). If you have bowed before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj that makes you yourself a Sikh. Since you accept Sikhi to be a true faith, whereas you believe modern Hinduism to be a corrupted form of the original faith then you should be at the forefront of declassifying as many so-called Hindu's as possible outside of association with the word Hindu and more rightly identify yourself and others as Sikh regardless of if you keep kes or not.

The identity of every Amritdhari Sikh is the same. Once a person has taken the Khanday baatay ki pahul of Sri Dasmesh Pita Jee, their identity is no more defined by or dependent on which place their mortal body was born, or which family it was born into, or what language they spoke, or what religion they followed, or what culture they were part of, or what ancestral lineage they had allegiance to, or which was their ethnic homeland.

UKL = Perfectly stated as usual Mehtab Singh Ji

Regarding Sikhs being the best Hindus, LMAO indeed.

UKL = I think what our friend meant was that Sikhi is the only true Sanatan Dharma (with Hinduism being a false corrupted excuse for a religion). If he did mean that then that shouldn;t be laughed at as the logical conclusion is that he himself should declare himself as a Sikh and also encourage more so-called Hindu's to correctly define themselves as sehajdhari Sikhs. Given that RanaBharatVaasi is a big supporter of Bachittar Natak having parallel parkash with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj it seems he may well have faith in Guru Sahib but is just scared of abandoning the Hindu identity which has been foisted on to him.

Likewise in all probability Gen Zorawar singh was a Hindu Dogra.

UKL = Zorawar Singh was not born in Jammu and was not a Dogra Hindu when he died as a casteless Sikh. However, that is not to deny that prior to him becoming Sikh he may possibly have been a Hindu Rajput in his youth.

But he was leading army of khalsa kingdom and pinned khalsa falg in Tibet. Leh and Ladakh are part of India because of him.

UKL = Agreed

Now this udoke had once gone to Makhan shah lubana Gurudwara in New York and was telling per his research Makhan shah Lubana had flourishing

business in Australia and had big warehouses there.

UKL = I think that was an urban myth cooked up against Sukhpreet Singh (who did not state such a fanciful story) on account of his support for Gurpreet Sumra's video on Charitropakhiyan.

_{Aside from agreeing with SikhiSeeker Ji and Cisco Singh, the other important point is that via use of the term "Kirpan" Guru Sahib referred to any shastar through which the Khalsa Panth can do the "kirpa" of innocent suffering humanity in their defence. Thus any usable shastar in the instance where, for example, someone does not have access to what has recently been commonly known as a kirpan counts as a Kirpan in the way Guru Sahib referred to Shahstar in the hands of the Khalsa Panth.}

_{Thus a gun, a spear, a sword, a knife, an axe, etc, etc all count as Kirpan in certain circumstances. When Guru Sahib advised the Khalsa Panth to be tyaar bar tyaar with access to 5 shastar always, that is what has morphed in the minds of some into the suggestion of 5 kakkars (however blunt or miniscule or unuable a a so-called micro-adornment-kirpan may be) are the requisite, when in fact Guru Sahib emphasised the Kirpan must be usable in the defense of Sarbat Da Bhalla. Furthermore, if we find African Sikhs who keep unshorn dreadlocks, Guru Sahib never meant for such members of the Khalsa Panth (from Africa) to necassarily always keep kangha should they keep Kes (in the form of uncut dreadlocks) and true Kirpan (usable shastar) as is mandatory for the Khalsa Panth.}

TFB bir'ay (as I was prevented from responding to your question directly by Admin) I would just like to echo my agreement with much of what the following respected posters have mentioned below:

The way I think of it is that the Guru's hukam is all encompassing. All the pain and suffering stems from the one, yet so does the much more powerful bliss, peace and liberation also comes from realizing the one. We strive to find peace and joy from our lives, but how could we appreciate the moments from which we derive such peace if we did not experience suffering and despair with which we could truly come to appreciate the great joys which stem from the guru. Would we have truly lived without knowing pain? Without pain, and without sadness, we would be laid waste to our ever growing egos, and even the most blissful and beneficial of events would seem horrible to us. In simple words, such horrible happenings provide perspective, and with that perspective, we gain a greater understanding of the world around us, and by extension, the true guru who has immersed himself within his creation.

I don't think Vaheguru is mean or cruel, because They are without hate completely. The Abrahamic perception of God includes characteristics of hatred and jealousy... but the Sikh view of God I believe is all loving, all compassionate and all understanding.

It's not the case that God CANNOT be bad, it's the case that God IS NOT bad. The Mool Mantar tells us the basic truth that God is without hate. The Abrahamic perspective of God includes jealousy, vengefulness and wrath- for example, in regards to Sodom and Gomorrah, or the worship of other Gods. This is all scripturally based. But Gurbani makes no mention of such a God (unless you can find me a Shabad that does). Yes, we know that suffering exists and that God causes and destroys, but it does not logically follow that a hate-less and all-loving God is therefore cruel as well. Perhaps it is our perception of cruelness, suffering and evil which is flawed.

I wonder if one might take another angle on this shabad. If one assumes that God is part of our being, atma as the shabad 'man tu moth saroop[ hei apna moll pacha an' states, in essence we can think of this shabad as a internal dialogue that Guru Nanak is engaged in, a self reflection, if you like. This self dialogue then really can be understood as Nanak identifying a series of moral questions. What should I one do when faced with a powerful egotistical demagogue like Babur?What power do I have to oppose the power of the oppressor? what moral responsibility do `i have given the power dynamics? And so, perhaps what Nanak is really asking us to address our own moral conscious and to contemplate how we should respond to such an oppressor. And so when he asks god, 'didn't you feel pain and suffering' he is really asking us to reflect on how we might react when we witness suffering and oppression. It is our own ego that stops us from making a moral choice to be passive or active, to confront or not confront such oppression. I know this is a rather complicated argument, but the key is not to see waheguru as some external entity sitting in witness; This is essentially a Christian idea. In sikhi, we are all potentially god. "Sabh meh joth joth he soie, tis day chanan sabh me chanan hoe". Once we grab the concept of God in Sikhi, only then can we make sense of the greatness of Nanak's teachings. The truth is that this shabad is really about oppression, just war and the need for people of faith, gods representatives on this earth if you like, to confront both the tyrant and their own ego. The first strategy is to enable them to realise folly of their actions and the dangers of ego. Failing this, then we al have a moral duty to confront with force such oppression.

As for referring back to Sanatnist Babas, this is your right but I feel all they will simply tell you what somebody has told them. For then sharda is more important than doing try khoj of the shabad. And the only way one can really do true khoj is not to be driven by our ego i.e. "I am right, you are wrong" but by a true love for gian. And so one should be is to be open to being proven wrong. So I humbly request my learned gursikh brothers and sisters to help me understand any limitations in my analysis of this shabad so that I may understand Guru Nanak's message m,ore completely.

Guru Fateh Ji

Dr Gurnam Singh

GOD lets you have free will to demonstrate your love. GOD does not make decisions for you or override your decisions about your life or anybody else. GOD is all in all means it includes everything, nothing is outside of it. It knows you because it is you. Its a collective conscious that wants you to understand that you are doing all this things to yourself because there is only one of you(GOD). Conscious can divide itself into millions, billions... infinite pieces (separate itself), so it can look back at itself and behold its magnificance of what it truely is. For you to experience love you have to experience what love is not, so all this happens.

Brother what does NOI mean?

UKL = Paji the NOI (Nation of Islam) are a pseudo-racist cult that worship an early 20th century USA criminal as being God on Earth.

obviously I disagree with slavery, rape and murder and injustice done to any insaan

UKL = And so did Baba Farid Ji Maharaj which is conclusive proof bir'ay that Baba Farid Ji were non-Muslim. As the slavery, rape and murders supported in the Quran (Prophet Muhammad's own dictated words) must be supported if one is to claim that they are a Muslim, which Baba Farid Ji were clearly not.

Parchar and dawa are two very different things, I think you may of misunderstood me on this one.

UKL = Agreed Paji

Every Sikh should be a pacharak of his faith, but i dont believe Sikhs should break down another's faith in what ever instance, our faith speaks for itself as again we do not have no concept of kafir. The beauty of our Parchar is that we simply sing the praises of waheguru and as great musicians can make people happy, bring tears to people's eyes with emotion, make people dance with joy and put people to sleep with a soothing melody, guru nanaks Kirtan and Parchar awoke peoples sleeping souls and re-united them with the one, some call him ram, some call him Kudah, some call him Gusain and some call him Allah, he is still the same being, known by all who are faithful.

UKL = 100% agreed with the caveat that anti-human actions such as the caste system, slavery, peadophilia, rape, murder of innocents must always be condemned regardless of the so-called divine personality perpetrating them whether that the various humans believed to be God incarnate such as Sidhu Jatt of Dera Sirsa, Garib Dass of Dera Ballan, Dhillon Jatt of the Radha Swami's, David Koresh of the Branch Davidian Cult, AsaRam in India etc

I wanted to bring to your attention this sufi Kalaam sung by the late sufi ustaad Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.

UKL = Paji for the avoidance of doubt NFAK did claim to be Muslim (albeit Sufi influenced). True Sufi's by their rejection of slavery, rape etc and their rejection of Prophet Muhammad are non-Muslims. Thus, there is a clear distinction. True Sufi's like Baba Farid Ji Maharaj were non-Muslim ... whilst there are so-called Sufi Muslims who are more liberal than mainstream Islam, but nevertheless believe fully in the Prophet Muhammad, his Sunnah and the Quran.

It demonstrates the truth of waheguru in some of its beautiful lyrical content

UKL = Up until about 13 minutes I would agree with you ...

and also has references to the prophet Muhammad,

UKL = However, where the kalaam states that Prophet Muhammad was the ultimate role model (most truthful beacon) to humanity, I strongly disagree as those Arab practises which Muhammad participated in were against the very essence of humanity and totally opposite to Gurmat. Forcing innocent children into slavery and then selling them off for personal financial gain is consciously irreconcilable with anyone that has faith in one God. And this is why Baba Farid Ji Maharaj were non-Muslim and absolutely so.

as In debate, it was suggested that sufi's reject the prophet Muhammad, which clearly is not so and evident in the quwalli.

UKL = Paji as explained above NFAK is a Muslim first (and influenced by Sufism second). Presumably you are aware that most Muslim musicians claim to be Sufi influenced since the Prophet Muhammad condemned music as immoral (whereas slavery or rape of female slaves did not bother him as morally wrong as seen in the Holy Quran and his life history).

UKL = Just to add Paji, Fateh Ali Khan (NFAK's father) was an ardent Muslim League supporter from Jalandhar. The Muslim League advocated that all of Doaba (which includes Jalandhar obviously) be annexed to Pakistan after the McMahon line was announced. All Muslim League supporters in Punjab were resolutely in support of this and initiated what violent measures they could to ethnically Sikhs out of current day east Punjab (as they had already pretty much succeeded in Western Punjab). Given that NFAK (born in 1948) was one of the most vocal supporters in Pakistan of Muslim League dogs such as the Rajput Moh'd Jinnah and the Brahmin Moh'd Allama Iqbal who were central to the creation of Pakistan (amidst the Genocide of 20% of the Sikh population in 1947 in Pakistan ... the equivalent of if 6 million Sikhs were killed today) I would humbly suggest again that entertainers who make shows of inter-faith unity for financial purposes ought not to be treated as credible sources. The bottom line is that Allah (as defined by Gurbani) is my God and yours but I would hope to die a Shaheed rather than give praise to those who justified slavery, rape, paedophilia and the beheading and amputations of innocent human beings as so many of our Shaheeds bravely refused did like Bhai Mati Das, Bhai Sati Das, Bhai Dayala Ji to name but three of our Gurmukhs, who had full faith on one God but like Baba Farid Ji Maharaj also refused to surrender to the ideology of Prophet Muhammad.

Excellent work Khalsa Ji by highlighting the above.

The review etc isn't even good enough. We need a minimum of £100million ploughed into community projects in Punjab for the upliftment of poor Sikhs suffering illiteracy, cancer, infanticide, social discrimination, drugs, alcohol etc given this UK Government assistance in the Genocide against Sikhs. Can you give us some of your thoughts Khalsa Ji on how Sikh Federation UK and Sikh Council UK can join hands to actively and aggressively lobby for this £100million compensation by June 2014 to mark 30years.

The Department for Internation Development regularly doles out billions overseas so the Sikh Qaum should be able to secure this if we try.

I do not advocate any fool burns the Union Jack as a way of getting our point across (as i suspect GOI will try defame us like that).

Also Khalsa Ji related to the Hyde Park Peace Remembrance and Rights Rally on June 8th 2014 can you give your thoughts on:

The painful history of 1984 and the Genocide occurred and there's nothing we can do to turn back time now.

However, 30 years on what we youth in the West can certainly do is set ourselves aims and objectives as members of the Sikh Panth to hit the following targets for Panthic upliftment by combatting drugs, alcohol, biraderi, infanticide, illiteracy, cancer and poverty. All bakhre bakhre Gurdware must be merged as soon as possible.

UK Sangat to raise £30 million plus by June 2014

Canadian Sangat to C$30 million plus by June 2014

American Sangat to raise $30 million plus by June 2014

Other Diaspora Countries Sangat should target $10million plus by June 2014

India-based Sangat could arguably raise R300crores plus by June 2014

And with an eventual target of national Panj Pyaaray representatives from each country handing over their respective nation Sangat's cheques to the SGPC for firewalled projects for Panthic Upliftment in combatting drugs, alcohol, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy, cancer and poverty and every penny of the funds presented to SGPC in June 2014 being watched over by auditors to confirm that Badal Dal cannot access, use or waste a single penny of the funds raised by Sangat, thereby transforming SGPC into a clean saanjha charitable vehicle for the Upliftment of the Poor and management of United Gurdwara's as it was always intended.

Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj must be translated into Tamil, Bengali, Oriya, Telugu etc, etc to get the Truth of what Sikhi represents out there further.

Rather than just remembering the past, we need to actively attack the current silent Genocide occuring via infanticide, drugs, cancer, illiteracy, biraderi and poverty.

Let's hear every forum members idea's on how we actually make this happen. Let's all contact Sikh organisations and us as Sangat try spread this agenda like a virus!

WJKK WJKF,

Brothers, sorry for the late reply, iv logged on when possible to read everybody's contributions to the topic.

I think its a case of were gona have to agree to disagree on this one lol.

UKL = Agreed

My opinion is based on what I believe our Guru Granth Sahib Ji is telling us, I refer to shabads "aval Allah noor upaaya- ang 1350" and "koi bole ram ram- ang 885" for anyone who's interested.

UKL = Absolutely ... Allah is indeed a name for God ... as is Ram ... however, that does not mean we are talking about a God that speaks only Arabic or a Indian king called Ram Chander.

I personally do not want to participate on insulting any religious prophet like the prophet Muhammad,

UKL = Paji stating historical facts from the Prophet's Sunnah and substantiated in the Quran should not be interpreted as insults. For example, if Sidhu the head of Dera Sirsa is well known to be a rapist, Sikhs should not be told to keep quiet about such blatant wrongs. If Manu Rishi of the Hindu's says all dalits deserve subjugation or death we cannot keep quiet for fear of upsetting the apple cart.

as we all know how it feels to us when someone insults someone we hold close, whatever our claim is, we don't need to cause insult, because if our gurus didn't offend on that basis, why should we?

UKL = When someone insults our Guru Sahib of course it hurts us ... but we shouldn't let that derail us from our mission of Sarbat Da Bhala ... and ultimately our Guru Sahiban were perfect human beings who only spread peace, oppose the murder of the innocents, opposed slavery and slaveowners and worked tirelessly for Sarbat Da Bhala and nor were they involved in rape, peadophilia as other famous spiritual leaders are provably known to be.

Also I have not said that everything about Islam and Hinduism is right at all,

UKL = Agreed

my point was waheguru exists in all

UKL = 100% agreed

and it's us who feel insecure to say not an iota of truth exists in any other faith about waheguru.

UKL = 100% agreed

Various brothers have stated it could be sheikh Ibrahim's saloks and that the sources I have read from are ever bias or inaccurate, however, the source I read from is my Guru, Shiri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and when my guru speaks, my guru says "salok sheikh fareed" which is really the full stop for me.

UKL = I respect your viewpoint on that (though I disagree with you since there was more than Sheikh Farid in the spiritual line)

Also, on the topic some have stated that Sufism is not apart of Islam as they reject the prophet Muhammad?

UKL = Absolutely Paji, that is one of the central points ... that how can Baba Farid Ji Maharaj be considered Muslim when they rejected Prophet Muhammad as the ultimate role model for humanity?

The majority of sufi sects I am aware of are Muslim and don't reject the prophet Muhammad, they hold Ali as the successor of Islam after the death of the prophet Mohammed where as the orthodox Muslims do not condone this.

UKL = Respectfully Paji, you seem to be confusing Shia Islam with the Sufi tradition. Shia believe in Ali as the correct Caliph (because of course as Muhammad's cousin he got to marry Muhammad's daughter Fatima). The Sufi tradition that Baba Farid Ji Maharaj expounded rejected slavery, peadophilia and the murder of innocent human beings as justified in the Quran and Sunnah (life history) of Prophet Muhammad.

Also Sufism has a more mystic, spiritual version ... where Allah is within everything and is everywhere and the point of a sufi musalmaan is to merge back with Allah rather than go to a specific place in the afterlife, this view is very similar to our dharam in principal.

UKL = As you have stated Paji, Sufism as expounded by Baba Farid Ji Maharaj was wholly in tandem with Gurmat. It's important to recognise that this form is outside of Islam. If I believe that Allah is indeed one of the many names of the One God that does not make me UKLondonSikh a Muslim (as i'm sure you'll agree). Those Sufi's who consider themselves Muslims believe 100% in the life actions of Prophet Muhammad and 100% of what the Holy Quran states in respect of slavery, child marraige (paedophilia) and the murder of non-Muslims.

The view that Entertainers like the late, great Nustat Fateh Ali Khan would do anything for a quick buck is a little crude. Who are we to judge someone else's spiritual advancement in their own faith?

UKL = Paji, absolutely, i would never dare to presume where NFAK stood and he might be a better human being than me ... but it's well known that enetertainers will sing dharmic geet one minute and the next be doing be supportive of something totally contrary to the ethos of Truth (Gurmat).

The sufi celebrate waheguru, understanding the oneness of god in their own way as do we,

UKL = Agreed non-Muslims do indeed exactly do that. But NFAK it is my understanding did not bow before Maharaj. And NFAK did consider himself a Muslim (which true Sufi Sants do not).

yet my post about bhangra artist who cause caste divide go unseen, contradicting themselves by saying caste is great, then in a dharmic geet they sing caste is wrong.

UKL = I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. The Muslim Jatt record label famous in Birmigham controls all the said bhangra artists you refer to by the way.

My topic on this didn't get much attention yet these people are able to poison young understanding on sikh principals and make a quick buck by doing so.

UKL = I 100% agree with you Paji. All Sikh Channel viewers should politely but firmly complain to DS Bal about the programming output of the sister station that he de facto runs with the Muslim Jatt bhangra record label from Birmigham.

My point was that just because someone is a musalmaan, Hindu or Jew, does not mean they know no truth of parmaatma,

UKL = I personally 100% agree with you Paji. I'm sure Mehtab Singh Paji and SikhKosh Ji do as well (and did not make that point either).

language used by sheikh fareed meets both gurmat and anti gurmat

UKL = Paji none of the language used by Baba Farid Ji Maharaj is anti-Gurmat (all is in tandem if you don't interpret every word literally)

e.g being buried in a grave and hell,

UKL = Using such terms (that Semitic faith believers understand) to illustrate truths is in no way against Gurmat

their are many shabad in the gurbani that state idol worship and praying towards Mecca are inadequate,

UKL = Agreed

however their are many shabad which also refer to the oneness of parmaatma who has many names from every part of the world and out.

UKL = ParmAathma is indeed One. However, all ideologies are not also one. Islam, Christianity and Hinduism condone Slavery. Sikhi opposes Slavery in totality. Sikhi and the other faiths cannot all be right upon a subject of human rights and morality where they disagree. Nevertheless, the God of all those who condone Slavery and oppose Slavery is still One.

In my opinion, to think the world has known NO truth about god before sikhi is silly,

UKL = I 100% agree with you Paji

the reason behind sikhi, Guru Nanaks Nirmal Panth is because the state of man kinds paap had blinded man kind, hence "sat guru Nanak pargateya meethi dundh jag chanan hoa". Guru Nanak enlightened the very parts of the world he reached. Who so ever wants to walk on the path of Nanak must play the game of love and put their head on their palm.

UKL = Agreed

Many people from other faiths do the same thing, "Islam" means to surrender, one has to surrender to gods will.

UKL = Agreed that millions of good Muslims do so. However, do you believe that those who sell human beings for financial reward and enslave fellow human beings are surrendering to God's will. Have Hindu Rishi's like Manu (and his admirers) surrendered to God's will when they subjugate innocent human beings on the basis of their caste? The answer is of course obvious Paji.

We cannot say that people of other faiths have not surrendered to waheguru, it's people who interpret this wrongly, as in terrorism and the killing of innocent people.

UKL = Respectfully Paji, read what the Quran, the Bible and Manu Smriti have to say first and then you will see that the followers are only following the message.

The gurbani tells us, that a person can find waheguru simply sitting in their home by surrendering. Again, the principal between parmaatma and his creation is this in its very essence without any stamp of any religion.

UKL = 100% agreed. No pilgrimages are needed (particularly for Sikhs who have started copying Hindu's, Christians and Muslims in that respect in recent times)

I strive to see pramaatmaa in every individual I meet irregards of their religion or ethnicity. I am no higher or lower to a Muslim, I am a learner, a sikh of guru Nanak ... we will all inevitably be judged on our action.

UKL = 100% agreed. Our life actions (not our religion) are what distinguish between us as Sikhi constantly highlights.

We can see the fundamental flaws in other peoples faiths, yet we cannot sort out our own problems within our faith which was perfect and now has been factioned and fragmented.

UKL = Agreed

We can insult someone else's prophet which they hold close,

UKL = Paji how can quotes from the Quran or facts about an individual's life be regarded as insults Paji. Indira Gandhi was a terrorist - fact. Facts are neutral and cannot be insults.

we allow people who call themselves sikhs and at the same time mock our gurus principals.

UKL = 100% agree with you Paji

Pramaatma has no bounds, Pramaatma is everything, everyone and all knowing. To think that sikhs have the monopoly on Pramaatma is simply ahankar. The thing that makes us different from the majority of the major worlds religions is we do not preach that we are the ultimate people, we are simply learners, we are Akal purakhs faujh, the khalsa, we protect everybody who suffers injustice ... Every sikh is obliged to tell others of their faith as our gurus did,

UKL = 100% agree with you Paji

however we do not need to carry out Dawa, the defragmentation of another's faith to highlight their own faith.

UKL = Parchaar and highlighting the truth cannot be construed negatively Paji

UKL = Otherwise none of us would ever be allowed to criticise Sidhu the rapist boss of Dera Sira or David Koresh of the Branch Davidian cult or Asa Ram AND Garib Dass (Ballan) and the like.

The unity of god as I have stated does not mean that a sikh can idol worship or dishonour their kesh or use tobacco (any kurehit) as if we call ourselves sikh, we have to abide by the law given to us as sikhs. That means the sikhs that lived and called themselves sikhs pre guru gobind Singh, lived within the then rehat, after 1699 dasmesh pita gave us the gift of amrit, then great Mahaan sikhs who lived as sikhs pre amrit took amrit and adopted the khalsa, as did many others as this was the new maryada that we should all aspire to live as sikhs and take amrit.

UKL = 100% agree with you.

I think it was veer Mehab Singh that asked me whether it is ok for someone who cuts their hair, smokes tobacco and consumes alcohol to matha tekh SGGS ji, as we can take sikhi with a pinch of salt, well it happens all around the U.K on a Sundays divan. Many sikhs are sehaj dhari, smoke and consume alcohol? I don't quite understand your point?

UKL = I 100% agree with you Sikhiseeker Paji. Anyone that bows before Maharaj is indeed a Sikh. Whether their life actions are good or bad does not come into it.

People already take sikhi with a pinch of salt, that's my issue and what brings me to discuss matters on here. Muslims have their own rehat as do Jews and Christians. The thing that sets us aside as sikhs is that to get to the desired destination afterlife you have to be apart of that very faith, if you are not Muslim, Jewish or Christian you are a kafir or infidel or non believer. In our faith, you can be anybody and find waheguru. Religion, caste, colour, creed are all irrelevant. The concept of kafir or infidel are against sikhi and waheguru. This is evident in the concept of langar and the architecture of Harmandhir Sahib. I think we have forgotten that and moved far from the principal of what our gurus set.

UKL = I 100% agree with you Paji and I am glad that you see it like that.

After all, our gurus and Mahaan shaheed gave kurbani for people to practice other faiths

UKL = 100% agreed as we see with Dhan Dhan Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj who gave their life for the human rights of believers of all religions and none to believe in their own faith.

and Shiri Guru Hargobind Ji even constructed a Mosque, for the worship of Allah/Waheguru by Muslims as per their rehat.

UKL = Guru Sahib assisted ordinary innocent Muslims to reconstruct collapsed walls on their Masjid. As Sikhs it is not against Gurmat for us to do that if there is an earthquake, for example. But I don't think it's up to us expend financial resources building places of worship for other religions (given how much we already waste on our Gurdwara's) when child hunger, malaria, poverty are issues that need resources to be spent upon first.

The khalsa faujh are the protectors of peoples faiths not destroyers.

UKL = 100% agreed

Now, I'm off to start my own jatha

UKL = I for one would like your jatha much more than many currently more famous!

that sheikh fareed was Muslim lol, joke!

UKL = Haha ... but no that I honestly can't tolerate in my heart if ever mentioned in seriousness ... as to me and many Sikhs ... Baba Farid Ji Maharaj was Sikh regardless of their ancestry.

WJKK WJKF

UKL = Paji 95% of what you have posted is correct. However, i have just highlighted some important points where I strongly disagree with you. VJKK VJKF

People who become ego centric about their own spiritual path will drift from it themselves, don't worry about the drifters just keep your own car on the track, because if you pay too much attention to the drifters you might end up drifting aswell - i'm not saying be apathetic to them or indifferent but focus on what matters more. Besides sometimes the best way to change a group is to change yourself, many Sikhs are always on the look for great sikhs and we need people to steer us right aswell. Since we are all products of our kaum, one factor can change the collective end product. It takes one great Sikh like Baba Deep Singh to make all the rest of us shine on the world stage. But in the court of god we need our own spiritual merit. It sounds like in the example of the car engine the parts are not working well oiled, and colliding in your example. Sikhi's correction method was always that great sikhs rose, flops fell. People like Banda Singh Bahadur grew in fame, the massands, minas all became no ones from once being from the gurus families or/and the equivalent of the panj pyare system in the past.

The rehat marayada have been based off the hukams of guru gobind singh, surely the panthic singh sabha's was in the opinion of many sikhs. If you read into how the singh sabha was formed as a body during the british empire to maintain and administer gurdwaras and sikh matters, some people have called the singh sabha sell outs to the british due to a few black sheep who were abstracted and due to how the Indian government can interfere in the successors of the singh sabha, the sgpc matters. Your thread was probably closed to avoid a secterian argument that could abrupt out of disagreements on versions of history or rehat.

Guru Gobind Singh's dictations of what rehat was, was written down by various writers in rehatnama such as bhai nand lal, bhai daya singh etc. You can get books listing the known ones and what they said. There were mutal matters in them and matters Sikhs who claim from prestige sikh lineages from prestige gursikhs with oral history considered to be direct interpolation, probably the massands changing them or error in transmission. There were hukamanama written by guru gobind singh combined with various historical sources all used by people like sardar kahn singh nabha and sardar vir singh to find what was common in them all and what the hukam of sikh was and to define sikhi so as to rid sikhs of the growth of heretical groups such as deviations of the massands and other anti-panthic groups which are introduced today. Some Sikhs such as bhai randhir singh another prominent sikh is said to have disagreed on the entire panthic matters so went on latter to form a jatha whose marayada was seen as the right one but it was still considered a part of the panth because the panth marayada's bare minimum was still in line with AKJs. Other segmented groups had reformation movements which I won't name to avoid people calling me a jatha-basher or start jatha bashing all of these various groups had that basis and felt certain teachings were not accurate. Now one of the other more famous groups was slowly moved out of the limelight of the panth which was the nihangs and alot more history goes into this.

But every legitimate Sikh group can agree that the very minimum to being a Sikh is in the SGPC rehat inherited from the Singh Sabha, the other groups only deviate on technicalities but for the most part agree on it's totality as being the framework of sikhi. Other groups who fundamentally reject panthic rehat, through out the Rehat marayada of the SGPC are usually anti sikh groups like the arya samaj, rss, bajrang dal, massands, minas, noormahalia, and more groups growing.

"English people" as it is who seek those things usually take an anthropological view on the entireity of Sikhs, the english people know heresy exists in every religion. But when people study a religion they are usually more concerned with it's teachings, tenants and philosophy rather then it's deviant heresy. We have to accept the heresy exists and work it out among ourselves, our religion gives us the freedom not to follow it if we choose and most of us take small steps in the faith. Although some people stress jathabandi is equal in weight of a problem to caste, I personally in my opinion feel caste is a worse problem. Jathas existed in the time of the Gurus such as the Tarna Dal (youth group) and Budha dal (elder group), tat khalsa, sarbat khalsa had various divisions mostly based on tactically displacement for survival during harder times. Jathas exist on geographical basis now, but the problem plaguing these jathas is people seeking jathedari, president seats, positions of power in sikh religious institutions and when they don't get it they make a new gurdwara, a new jatha, a new sect, a new religion. I wonder sometimes if people are so hungry for respect why don't they earn it else where in a career or open a company and become a CEO- invest that effort else where (maybe start projects translating more sikh texts which are lying around and haven't been translated yet). The respective jathas we have, have increased the competition between them and all of that has actually overall improved over time the quallity of the parchar - that is one positive. One negative is how we don't unite in times like turban searches or sikh attacks (such as grooming gangs- people run away, hate crimes etc.)

All of our "Sikh" numerous paths converge to one point which is Guru Granth Sahib, if we accept it as the light of guru Nanak and follow it we will not differ. This was the uniting factor in the times of guru gobind singh in times of hardship after the 10th guru among puratan sikhs. Out of all of the disputes; the worst of arguments would fade because gursikhs never quarrel in front of guru granth sahib; considering it as a great sin and people's enmity were even buried - the power of gurbani also opens up the human heart (not many experience,it all maharajs kirpa and hukam, but it happens).

I think one beauty of Sikhs is how we can have our own opinion among ourselves and be free thinkers if you a group of sheeps who follow the sheep herder then you only need to defeat the sheep herder or just one sheep and you defeat all of them, because all of them share the same ideas. Let's say religion x which acts like a cult iterates a script among all of it's followers to convert people, all you need to do is defeat one person from x in debate and you defeated them all- they all think the same. In Sikhi if you defeat one person, we still have sava lakh more points. We were taught by our guru to be freethinkers and not to bow blindly before any cleric easily to become sheep easily.

Let me elaborate on the rehat issue: The sgpc rehat says you can eat meat but not halal, every other jatha agrees to this at least in some shape or form. Jathas which are pure vegetarians agree halal is a no-no but to add on to that they don't eat any other slaughter form. So they share that very basic. Nihang jathas and other factions with nihang origins promote pure jhatka and are against halal. Because of the panthic rehat both nihangs and vegeterian sikhs are both under the panthic rehat. So there rehat on that basis is one.

AKJ feel keski is a rehat, some jathas feel keski is a formality, SGPC says bare minimum is keep kesh with the other kakkars every Sikh jatha agrees keeping kesh is a requirement of khalsa so the panthic rehat is united on that issue.

The issue of how much paath and to which point to stop. Sikh jathas all say 5 banis, some say 5 banis in morning 2 after (evening and night), some tell you to do a bit more anand sahib some say do a bit more chaupai sahib stop here or there. SGPC gives the bare minimum of paath that every other jatha does anyway, any paath is better then no paath. So the panth is in agreement on the banis set to be read the least, and the SGPC encourages people reading more bani anyway.

Bibek buddhi, sarbloh rehat this is a very difficult one SGPC rehat say don't keep bibek with panthic dushmans such as massands, minas etc unless they take amrit become khalsa i.e repent. Every Sikh jatha is in agreement of that they only differ on technicalities on this matter.

So with the above technical differences we all do have on common rehat just we differ on technicalities. We do have one common rehat but many of us are still taking our baby steps before following that and in a way people are fine walking towards the guru, you walk one step, the guru takes a hundred. On the subject of marriage every jatha agrees a sikh should marry a sikh there is no difference in that rehat.

Gurusahib made the panth the guru and gave panth khalsa the power to make hukamnama and by the power of the five takht, sarbat khalsa, five jathedars and panj pyare from each takht everyone agrees with the bare minimum of the panthic rehat.

UKL = Great posts Username1 Paji. Anyone who cares about Sikhi won't focus on our differences but will consciously choose to appreciate our similar beliefs and common causes. Having said that, the whole concept of academic discussion meaning "vaad-vivaadh and automatically being bad" will leave our Qaum stagnant and incapable of reform. We need to be mature enough to discuss ALL issues with pyaar and satkaar and "agree to disagree" when that happens. If something is important to the future direction of the Panth it needs to be discussed as Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and the authors of Gurbani never hesitated to address societal or theological evils where required. I know this won't be popular but imho even aside from common sense basics such as biraderi or jathebandi divides (both of which I hate and as Giani Ditt Singh always emphasised we as a Qaum need to overcome) we should even look to see where we can possibly see common causes for societal upliftment with the various historically pro-Congress sects as that can only progress Sarbat Da Bhala faster.

There's numerous 1Rehat Maryade, 2numerous jathebandiya, 3caste segregation, 4yes/no to meat, 5yes/no to Shiri Dasam Granth, 6unresponsive so called leaders of Shiri Akal takhat, 7relaxed rules for beadbi of Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, 8interfaith marriage, beadbi of the anand karaj, lavish silly weddings wearing a dastar/trimming our beard, the way were portrayed in media as drunks/ girls cut kesh/short skirts with a Kara, guys prancing about with girls with a bottle of whiskey in their hand, Kara on their wrist and a big fat khada made out of gold.......yet the khalsa was only established in 1699! Are we goin to the gurdwara, participating while were there as we have too, then as soon as we get out do exalctly what we shouldn't be doing by majority? How did we get here? Are we doin enough to restore the damage? How can we ask the guru to tear our bedhawa what we have written against our guru, shoul there just not be one path, one rehat and one physical identity of the khalsa panth?

Paji it would be brilliant if all of us were in total unison on everything and move forward collectively as a Panth in Unity only, however we have to accept our Unity in Diversity when it comes to reality now in 2014.

1. I'd like to see one Panthic Maryada also but the 1950 definition of a what defines a Sikh as such strongly assists our RSS enemies in expanding the number of Hindu's defined by the same whilst constricting the demographic population of Sikhs so that we are a powerless minority instead of the natural majority of humanity (that surely wishes to see Sarbat Da Bhala). There is a distinction between the definition of an Amritdhari GurSikh and an ordinary lay Sikh. The puratan definition of an ordinary lay Sikh is anyone who bows before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj (regardless of the parental religious background of that person).

2. Jathebandiya exist fair enough but where they put themselves first and the Panth second is where we should call them out upon. As the Panth's interests always need to come 1st always rather their own petty rivalries and their own segregagational Gurukar attempts.

3. If we can't unite on this and the need for caste cancer as a concept to be killed and Gurdwara's to be merged, what exactly will ever unite on. Surely when it comes to opposing caste, drugs, alcohol, illiteracy, poverty and female infanticide we should all be on the same page!

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70587-how-to-tackle-jaath-paath-discrimination-in-matrimonials/

4. I believe that's a personal decision for us to interpret whether Gurmat advises us one way or another (so no reason for any rifts)

5. Contrary to what our opponents want us to think, there is no divide on that issue either as 100% of the Panth believe in 100% of blessed Dasam Bani. [MOD CUT]

6. If Akal Takht go against the Truth or Panthic interests (by ignoring drugs, alcohol, caste, illiteracty, poverty and infanticide to the degree they are) then it is up to us Sangat to still follow Gurmat whilst not unduly harming the institution overly so that it is shaken irrevocably (as our opponents would wish). Regardless of what a Jathedar may say it is still up to us to show our devotion to Sikhi via our practical actions and money towards Panthic Upliftment (rather than just our words).

7. My personal view is that Maharaj being Maharaj is fundamentally beyond Beadbi from our Panth's opponents but as Sikhs ourselves we should strive to avoid Beadbi (without deification or idolisation). Of course, many believe that apartheid segregated Gurdwara's, gold adorning Gurdwara's while children go hungry or uneducated, reference to devotees who bow before Maharaj as non-Sikhs are all forms of Beadbi in their own way.

8. Mixed marriages are going to increase year after year, whether we like it or not so I think unitedly we should formulate a strategy that will link the children of such marriages to Sikhi, rather than alienating them away forever so that year after year our Panth's population inevitably drops via scenes as seen at Swindon a while back.

But in conculsion imho I believe we need to embrace diversity (much as it may pain those like myself to do so) if we are serious about the Khalsa Fauj being a global force to prevent oppression of the weak globally to ensure Sarbat Da Bhala. Rather than focussing on our differences let's always conscioulsy choose to focus on (the agenda) that we actually share with others in the Panth. Academic disagreement doesn't mean vaad-vivaadh either as it actually strengthens us collectively to think outside of the box and potentially push reforms.

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The painful history of 1984 and the Genocide occurred and there's nothing we can do to turn back time now.

However, 30 years on what we youth in the West can certainly do is set ourselves aims and objectives as members of the Sikh Panth to hit the following targets for Panthic upliftment by combatting drugs, alcohol, biraderi, infanticide, illiteracy, cancer and poverty. All bakhre bakhre Gurdware must be merged as soon as possible.

UK Sangat to raise £30 million plus by June 2014

Canadian Sangat to C$30 million plus by June 2014

American Sangat to raise $30 million plus by June 2014

Other Diaspora Countries Sangat should target $10million plus by June 2014

India-based Sangat could arguably raise R300crores plus by June 2014

And with an eventual target of national Panj Pyaaray representatives from each country handing over their respective nation Sangat's cheques to the SGPC for firewalled projects for Panthic Upliftment in combatting drugs, alcohol, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy, cancer and poverty and every penny of the funds presented to SGPC in June 2014 being watched over by auditors to confirm that Badal Dal cannot access, use or waste a single penny of the funds raised by Sangat, thereby transforming SGPC into a clean saanjha charitable vehicle for the Upliftment of the Poor and management of United Gurdwara's as it was always intended.

Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj must be translated into Tamil, Bengali, Oriya, Telugu etc, etc to get the Truth of what Sikhi represents out there further.

Rather than just remembering the past, we need to actively attack the current silent Genocide occuring via infanticide, drugs, cancer, illiteracy, biraderi and poverty.

Let's hear every forum members idea's on how we actually make this happen. Let's all contact Sikh organisations and us as Sangat try spread this agenda like a virus!

Fanatic Islamic forces did quite well around the world converting people by force,

Either convert or die,

UKL = Agreed so far Paji

however the sufi sant movement, with their devotional singing enchanting people hearts and minds focused on the similarity of the all pervading god with the people of the Indus, not the difference. They sang of the one gods love spreading the Ideology of equality of his creation. Rather than having a sword on your neck and being told to convert, these sufi sant were able to convert masses of Indians with this approach such as dhan dhan baba sheikh fareed!

UKL = Paji in actual fact the conversion of likely around 99% was initially done by the "convert or die" method, however, what certain supposedly syncretic Sufi orders did do on behalf of the Mughal Empire was mop up the new converts so that with time the new converts genuinely started to believe in Islam, given the similarities the supposedly Sufi orders that worked mainly at the behest and invitation of the Mughal Empire accentuated. Of course, later on Aurangzeb did realise that the Mughals had let go of their own Islamic central authority by giving too much latitude to certain elements who did not follow the most traditional of Muslim practices shall we say.

sheikh baba fared was a Sufi sant musalmaan, he was never a Sikh.

UKL = Not so Paji. Dhan Dhan Baba Faird Ji Maharaj was absolutely Sikh (by living according to Gurmat and himself expounding Gurmat). The fact that he was born of Muslim ancestry does not prevent Baba Farid Ji Maharaj from being accepted as a Sikh. After all it is only the enemies of the Sikhs that make up lies regarding Bhai Mardani Ji who was the first Sikh to come to Sikhi in Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's time.

What type of Sufi sant was he? The one that doesn't preach Islam?

UKL = Many Sufi orders were and are regarded as non-Muslim. In that they believe in one God, as Sikhs do, but similar to Sikhs they also reject the de facto deification of Prophet Muhammad who is accepted historically as having been a slavetrader and peadophile according to modern definitions (the Prophet was 54 when his child bride Aisha had her marriage consummated with him at age 9). It is this rejection of Prophet Muhammad as the ultimate human role model for humanity that clearly shows the Baba Farid were not Muslim. They called people to worship one God and by so doing they cannot be classified as Muslim. As believing in Islam or being Muslim must be accompanied by support of the Prophet's slave trading, cold blooded murder of innocents as well as support for the age at which Prophet Muhammad consummated his marriage with Aisha (when she was 9). Those Sufi orders which are openly declared as non-Muslims refuse to accept Prophet Muhammad as the greatest example of a human being ever given to mankind given his personal lifestyle.

Not all Hindu people converted to Islam forcefully, many must of converted through their own choice, after the inequality of the Hindu hierarchy, many through the Sufi sant movement even after the repeated Islamic invasions as you mentioned.

UKL = It should be borne in mind that the Hindu's were initially converted overwhelmingly by the sword (with the exception of so-called high caste converts who were in cahoots with the Mughal Empire as collaborators) and syncretic Sufi orders followed afterwards (at the invitation of the Mughals) to keep the newly converted flock within Islam. Pakistani Punjabi's always forget that prior to their ancestors perhaps voluntarily accepting Sufi Muslims (in contrast to plain Sufi's that are not Muslim) their ancestors were always initially brought into Islam via threat of the sword. For example, if a descendent of forcibly converted Muslims join a Sufi Muslim strain three generations later it does not delete the forcibly converted history or imply that Sufi Muslims bought Islam to most of the sub-continents Muslims! And of course we must not confuse true Sufi Sants (non-Muslims) with Sufi Muslims.

Check any history written on baba sheikh fareed and it writes he converted people obviously to Islam as he wasn't a Hindu. He was Muslim.

UKL = Paji these histories written by the Mughals paid authors are worthless. They are written by the same authors that spout such vile lies against our Guru Sahib. So for them to claim Baba Farid Ji as being Muslim is to be expected. We as Sikhs should not fall for such claptrap! These same crooked authors claim Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj were Hindu despite Bhagat Namdev Ji explicity stating in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj that "Hindu anna, Turk (Mussalmaan) kaana".

Nice piece of research however just because the saloks were added into our Guru Granth Sahib does not mean they became Sikh. They wrote simple truth of Akal purakh, the same for Bhagat Ravidass Ji and Bhagat Kabir ji. These never became Sikhs.

UKL = Dhan Dhan Kabir Ji Maharaj and Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj were already Sikh by virtue of their ideology and actions and categorically so. They didn't need to become Sikhs as they already were Sikhs (as was Baba Farid Ji Maharaj).

They just knew sach. Sheikh baba fareed is a Sufi sant musalmaan, which is not along the same line of orthodox Islam, for e.g the singing of devotional hymns, the swirling dervish all stemming from Rumi. However they were musalmaan

UKL = Not so Paji as those Sufi's that did not accept the personal lifestyle of Prophet Muhammad in relation to the slave trading, mass murders and paedophilia the Prophet Muhammad engaged in were simply not accepted as Muslims even though they believed, as we do, in one God (Ik Onkar).

just how us Sikhs have now many jathebandi and paths and Rehat Maryada. We all claim were Sikh,

UKL = I don't agree with your analogy Paji. For example, can anybody be Sikh if we reject the personal life lived by Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj?

just as sheikh baba farid is Muslim even though his Rehat is different to the other main stream Muslim Rehat.

UKL = Dhan Dhan Baba Farid Ji was Sikh and certainly a non-Muslim as shown above Paji. Also Paji don't believe the hype by some Muslim Jatts about their Tiwana ancestors converting to Sufi Islam under so and so's influence, as all of Pakistan claims to have been converted by Sufi's as it's hard for them to admit their own ancestors were killed, raped and threatened into surrendering to Islam.

buried and enshrined as per their SUFI MUSLIM REHAT.

UKL = Not so Paji. Tombs constructed by the Mughals to claim the legacy of greats like Dhan Dhan Baba Farid Ji Maharaj do not prove that they were Muslim. Those tombs were specifically and politically constructed by the Mughals to detach Baba Farid Ji's memory away from anti-Islamism (which is what rejection of Prophet Muhammad actions amounts to) and claiming it for political purposes as an Islamic legacy. Remember the same thing was done in Iraq with Gursikh (Pir) Bahlol's tomb because it was politically inconvenient for the rulers to admit that there were those in Iraq who accepted the truth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's world expounded Truth of Ik Onkar, (Kirat Karo, Naam Japo, Vand Chhako).

Many historians like to put there opinion on things and don't present the history for what it is. Like how they stamp the caste on Sikhs to demonstrate how that particular caste had gave more kurbaani, or fought more valiantly than other castes in their own opinion,

UKL = Paji, GurSikhs have no caste (as you rightly stated on another thread). However, as a minor amateur student of Sikh history knowing the original parental ancestries of our most famous Gurmukhs proves one thing beyond doubt ... that all ancestries were represented commensurately (no monoploy over Qurbani exists within our Qaum as opposed to the Qureshi and Kshatriya domination of Islam and Hinduism) ... and that just because KP Gill, General Brar, Dhillon of the Radha Swami's and Sidhu of Dera Sirsa are all proud Jatts like the 80% of Jatts who are Muslims in Pakistan and Hindu in India such as Sajjan Kumar and the 1st Prime Minister of Pakistan ... the Sikh Qaum's Heere do not similarly come from the same background ... as foremost marker about the Khalsa Panth is total rejection of caste affiliation.

If it was Sheikh Ibrahim Sani, then the Salok would of been " Salok Sheikh Ibrahim Sani ". I am aware that he was the successor of the Sufi Gaddi

UKL = Your acceptance of the Sufi Gaddi is key Paji. As just as our Guru Sahib can be the "10"th Nanak (for example) so was Baba Farid Ji. However, by the time of Gurbani's Baba Farid Ji Maharaj Prophet Muhammad's ideology of slavery, rape, murder and paedophilia had been rejected in entireity.

however I said sheikh fareed was devout, did convert people to Islam and was a Muslim to do so,

UKL = Not so Paji. Why would we as Sikhs extol the virtues of those that believe (as Islam does) that non-Muslims go to Hell and the Prophet Muhammad's lifestyle as the ultimate role model for humankind to follow? Baba Farid Ji Maharaj was not Muslim and it's hurtful that Sikhs have been conned into believing this narrative.

Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan had no issue singing the shabad of Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Ravidass all in a Gurdwara, did that make him Sikh too?

UKL = Paji entertainers do that for money especially those Sufi's that actually regard themselves as Muslims and accept Prophet Muhammad as the ultimate role model for mankind. However, if Nsrat Fateh Ali Khan was to disavow the second line of the Muslim shahadah he would no longer be a Muslim. However, all those who bow before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are indeed Sikhs and a family surname coming from the Mongolian word "Khan" does not debar someone from being Sikh.

Its abit concerning that today us Sikhs feel the need to stamp anyone a Sikh who has had any affiliation with gurus or if there bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib. I think this stems from Dhan Dhan bhai Mardhana, as he spent so much time with Guru Nanak Dev Ji. But just because someone else's bani who belongs to another religion i in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not mean they became Sikh, its like were a little insecure to now admit that other religions know the truth of god too?

UKL = Paji, i find it distressing that Sikhs think of our greatest contributors to Gurbani as being Hindu's and Muslims when those same elevated souls so bravely rejected Islam and Hinduism and all that those two big religions stand for. Bhai Mardana Ji was the 1st Sikh of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's era. What's more is that both Bhai Mardana's sons were devout Gursikhs as well (yet we have crooked Pakistani's claiming that Bhai Mardana as an ancestor in order to make money off gullible Sikhs. The Pakistani's who lie about their ancestry are just as crooked as those rotten Bedi's in Punjab like Khemu Ram Bedi and Amitabh Bachchan who claim they are descended from Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj).

God dwells in all people of all faiths,

UKL = Agreed. But it does not equate that ideologies such as Nazism, Satanism, Racism etc are as equally valid as Sikhi. In Sikhi there is no place for slavery nor the murder of innocents nor peadophilia.

they say guru Nanak was "Hindus da guru, musalmana da peer" they claim guru Nanak to their own religion!

UKL = The 1st generation of Sikhs was virtually 50/50 with Sikhs whose parents were from a Muslim and Hindu Background originally. But the Hindu (Guru) and Muslim (Pir) was actually an invention of Mughal writers to claim that only Hindu's accepted Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj as their Guru when we all know, not least from Bhai Mardana Ji the 1st Sikh, that Guru Nanak was the Jagat Guru for the whole world regardless of a Sikh's parents religion.

In indian history, Islam flourished due to the Sufi movement.

UKL = Paji the above is the Pakistani version of events. The truth is Islam was enforced on the subject populace by the sword alone. Mughal backed strands of syncretic Sufism then herded the new lock mentally into the mentality of Islam. However, true Sufi's like Baba Farid Ji Maharaj rejected the central tenet of Islam (faith in Prophet Muhammad and respect for his life history)

As I said, other religions also know truth about Akal purakh, to think no other religion out there has any truth

UKL = I don't think any Sikh believes that Paji. Sikhi accepts that only our actions distinguish between us as human beings and good people do indeed come from all faith backgrounds (and none).

and does not know any beauty of pramaatma, is a very confined notion to have.

UKL = No Sikh would ever say that Paji.

I am not saying all other religions are right, but I cannot say that they do not know any truth at all.

UKL = All Sikhs agree with you on that Paji i'm sure.

The logic behind sikhi was the creation of the Khalsa, Akal purakhs fauj, to fight for justice for the world, our enemy was never Islam, but the Mughal Regime that used force against some ones will and bring down the inequality against one another. That was the logic behind sikhi and why it was needed!

UKL = Agreed Paji. But as Sikhs we cannot shy away from condemning slavery, murder of innocents and paedophilia just because the Prophet Muhammad partook in the same and such actions are justified in the Holy Quran. Of course, I will be the first to accept that there are millions of good Muslims who live a better life than me as a poor example for a self-proclaimed Sikh. Certain Muslims can be better than individual so-called Sikhs. However, one ideology which condones slavery in the Quran and Gurmat which bitterly opposes Slavery are two totally incomparable ideologies.

but again as Sikhs do we not say keep strong to the faith you were born in?

UKL = Personally, i despair of that mentality within Sikhs of encouraging people to stay in the religion they were born. We lock tens of millions of Sikhs out of the Panth by exactly that ideology of let Muslims be good Muslims and Hindu's be good Hindu's. If both Islam and Hinduism justify the oppression of the weak via the Quran and Manu Smrit explicitly, why should we applaud that. We should encourage fundamentally good people to free themselves mentally and spiritually so that everyone believes in Sarbat Da Bhala (rather than thinking that non-believers will burn in Hell etc).

Or Mehtab Singh do you think we should start converting masses of people because sikhi has the monoply on Akal purakh because their faith is inadequate and not fully nirmal as you said?

UKL = No I don't think any Sikh believes in forcible mass conversion as Islam, Christianity and even Manuvadi Hinduism have propagated. However, it is certainly encumbent upon us Sikhs to do more parchaar so that there is greater population of those working for Sarbat Da Bhala (welfare of entire humanity).

god dwells within all,

UKL = Agreed.

if your Muslim be the best muslim, if your Christian, be the best Christian,

UKL = Which imho is tantamount to saying that Sikhi is de facto an ethnic faith for only 0.4% of the human population (which I strongly disagree with).

UKL = Not saying you Paji but some also assume Sikhi that Sikhi is only for Punjabi's until they hear that four of the Panj Pyaaray were non-Punjabi.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66388-four-of-the-5-pyaaray-were-not-punjabi/

We dont need to go round saying to another person if a different faith, your faith is not nirmal and ours is, were better than you!

UKL = I certainly agree with you on that but we must condemn injustice which is inherent within the Holy Books of Christianity, Hinduism and Islam just like Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj did (and as did Dhan Dhan Baba Farid Ji Maharaj and Dhan Dhan Kabir Ji Maharaj as two more examples). Dhan Dhan Kabir Ji Maharaj lambasts Islam repeatedly and yet for some reason some Sikhs see fit to label Maharaj as being non-Sikh. That hurts me.

Again, just because the bhagats and sheikhs bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not in no way mean they became a Sikh.

UKL = Their words, their actions, their life was 100% Sikh. To deny the same is tantamount to not according them their due respect imho. Why would contributors to Gurbani convert others into supporting the Quran (or Manu Smriti) which condones slavery, rape, murder and paedophilia?

Lol, mehtab Singh/sikh kosh, if professor Khalil nazmi is the head of the sufi sect of sheikh fareed now,

UKL = Paji there is no such sect which follows Baba Farid Ji Maharaj's teachings (though they may claim to follow his path). Given that Baba Farid Ji Maharaj rejected true Islam, the modern day likes of the Professor are merely those Muslims who by virtue of a Mughal paid for tomb interpret Baba Farid Ji Maharaj as a Muslim (despite Baba Farid Ji's beliefs to the contrary). Remember there are those RSS revisionists that claim Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj were Hindu when Gurbani proves the opposite!

UKL = Sikhiseeker Paji i'd like to sincerely emphasise my 100% total personal respect for you as a brother within the Panth (who also hates caste as the anti-Sikh concept it is ... and nobility by birth is a concept which is actually supported in the Quran and Manu Smriti as I am sure you are aware) so please brother don't take my disagreement with you intellectually on something I believe very strongly in as a personal attack on you in any way. I respect your entitlement to your own viewpoint. I believe the opposite. And if all of us care about the Panth we should be mature enough (as I believe you are) to disagree with pyaar and satkaar. I never agree 100% with SikhKosh Paji and Mehtab Singh Paji either (but 95% of the time yes) so it's all good. I can 100% say that though I fully disagree with you on this subject I still believe your pyaar for Sikhi is 100% so after academic debates are done and dusted let's always work in Unity on how we progress our Panth! VJKK VJKF

He won't cite any credible sources nor will he use logic because he has a bias against Sikhs and human rights.

And the thing is Paji let's say one dubious (or forcibly coerced) source paid by the Government of India denigrates the historic truths relating to:

• General Shabeg Singh who opposed Pakistani terrorists and who put his life on the line against Pakistan in 1965 and 1971 with dual bravery medals
• Longowal Ji who sacrificed his own life trying to prevent the foreseeable Genocide of lakhs of Sikhs by terrorist Congress GOI after 1984
• the Sikh Panth which is unable as the Khalsa Panth to ever attack innocents and Sikhs unblemished record of never having attacked innocent Hindu's
• the truth that occurred at Muktsar, Hondh-Chillar, Gyan Godri and various other Gurdwara's which human rights organisations have documented etc, etc
• the truth the GOI Black Cats occupied Harmandir Sahib in the subsequent years to 1984 to denigrate those that opposed state terrorism

Those lies by such pimps working for the GOI and Hindutva agenda's can never whitewash the Truth so long as we contest it.

However, demographically our voice of Truth is drowned out in India by a greater volume of RSS lies simply because we define too few Sikhs as being part of the Panth.

So our only response must be to increase parchaar and seva so that more and more so-called Hindu's realise that Sikhi is the Truth for Sarbat Da Bhala (benefit of all)

Critical to achieving that is that we need to use June 2014 as a relaying point to set a new agenda away from our collective failure as a Sangat in the last 30 years:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The painful history of 1984 and the Genocide occurred and there's nothing we can do to turn back time now.

However, 30 years on what we youth in the West can certainly do is set ourselves aims and objectives as members of the Sikh Panth to hit the following targets for Panthic upliftment by combatting drugs, alcohol, biraderi, infanticide, illiteracy, cancer and poverty. All bakhre bakhre Gurdware must be merged as soon as possible.

UK Sangat to raise £30 million plus by June 2014

Canadian Sangat to C$30 million plus by June 2014

American Sangat to raise $30 million plus by June 2014

Other Diaspora Countries Sangat should target $10million plus by June 2014

India-based Sangat could arguably raise R300crores plus by June 2014

And with an eventual target of national Panj Pyaaray representatives from each country handing over their respective nation Sangat's cheques to the SGPC for firewalled projects for Panthic Upliftment in combatting drugs, alcohol, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy, cancer and poverty and every penny of the funds presented to SGPC in June 2014 being watched over by auditors to confirm that Badal Dal cannot access, use or waste a single penny of the funds raised by Sangat, thereby transforming SGPC into a clean saanjha charitable vehicle for the Upliftment of the Poor and management of United Gurdwara's as it was always intended.

Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj must be translated into Tamil, Bengali, Oriya, Telugu etc, etc to get the Truth of what Sikhi represents out there further.

Rather than just remembering the past, we need to actively attack the current silent Genocide occuring via infanticide, drugs, cancer, illiteracy, biraderi and poverty.

Let's hear every forum members idea's on how we actually make this happen. Let's all contact Sikh organisations and us as Sangat try spread this agenda like a virus!

a) Shahbeg's brother freely admits that the aim was for the disintegration of India with pakistani support.

UKL = General Shabeg Singh's was forced to say that for media effect in order not to be financially wiped out by the GOI and thrown in jail simply for being kin to General Shabeg Singh. General Shabeg Singh was a Desh Bhagat who was instrumental in weakening the terrorist threat posed by Pakistan which the Pakistani's sought to enforce by killing millions of innocent Hindu's and Bangladeshi's. Shabeg Singh himself played a huge role in saving millions of Hindu lives and would never have joined forces with the terrorists of Pakistan given his brave actions on behalf of defending Bharat in 1962, 1965, 1971 and therefafter. He died defending Sri Akal Takht having been made aware of Indira Gandhi's intentions to decimate it and the Sikh Panth to garner the Hindutva vote.

b) Longowal admits to Nayar (??) the aim was to kill all hindus and for khalistan

UKL = An utterly ridiculous and false allegation. Sant Longowal was accepted by all as being wholly motivated towards peaceful solutions for political problems. When June 1984 and Novemember 1984 occurred Sikhs had ample opportunity to kill Hindu's in villages but the Sikh Panth did not do so as there is no hatred from Sikhs towards any innocents. That hatred is one way against Sikhs and solely reserved for Sikhs by the Panth's enemies.

c) Bhindranwale's own secretary admits the killings of hindus and others were done by people inside the darbar sahib

UKL = All killings of innocent Hindu's were done by Government of India Black Cats led by Muhammad Azhar Alam. A dozen or so anti-Sikh terrorists may well have died in the course of their attacks against innocent Sikhs.

d) The other 38 gurudwaras were not "attacked" but searched. Nothing found, no resistance and the army went away.

UKL = Muktsar and many other Gurdwara's were indeed attacked, ransacked, historic Granths burnt and burnt and demolished such as Hondh-Chillar, Gian Godhri and several others not so famous.

Case in point Damdami Taksal was searched, people cooperated and the army went its way.

UKL = The reason why those elements based at Damdami Taksal co-operated with the army peacefully is due to links with Zail and because they campaigned for Indira Gandhi in the 1980 elections.

e) we also know that after operation bluestar the temple complex was occupied at least twice again with terrorists taking pilgrims as hostages.

UKL = Yet again nonsense. Every one is aware that those were not terrorists but GOI Black Cats pretending to be Sikhs to denigrate the Panth and facilitate GOI's Genocide of the Sikhs.

There is a great documentary out there about Operation Bluestar - there is one interesting part. One women (pilgrim) was stuck inside the complex with others. They tried to get out but in her own words the killing inside was done by the militants themselves by hurling grenades at the pilgrims.

UKL = One woman paid off by GOI may say that for financial gain. However, hundreds more survivors state that thousands of innocent civilians were mercilessly killed simply for being Sikh and remembering the Shaheedi Diwas of Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj.

Hopefully, any investigation will look into that as well.

UKL = Sikhs are not allowed to take innocent lives but are duty bound to protect the innocent. Most likely an investigation will show GOI infiltratrors or Black Cats responsible for the said grenade.

Separately GPS Bhai Sahib is correct that the letter attributed to Longowal is completely false. I believe Gurtej Singh IAS is guilty of accepting Congress propaganda too readily in that respect rather than anything else. But it's an easy mistake to make given that Savinderpal Singh and Waljinder Singh were also innocently duped into believing the fake letter.

Consistently well stated points throughout the thread Sikhiseeker Ji.

So long as we have bakhre bakhre Gurukar + apartheid like matrimonial circles this cancer will not die out, so we the Sangat need to kill it

We need to utilise June 2014 as a vehicle for enforcing Gurdwara mergers in the UK to ensure kids grow up united from day one.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/

The reason I am kicking up a FUSS with you brother is because I came on here to discuss sikhi, not to see caste based shows endorsed on a "pro sikh" TV channel and then find it also on here by you described as a " matrimonial show helping young SIKHS".

Brother the answer to your question if I was rejected due to caste or class? What sort if question is that and what relevance has it got with what we have been talking about? Are you simply trying to patronise me? I wish to take amrit and when I do, I will make sure that I will do everything in my power to kick up a FUSS when people promote caste! Especially the ones with Singh and Kaur in their names.

Also, a gur sikh would not allow it as gods will, that is the reason why the khalsa wears a kirpan, to stand for justice especially when it comes to their own dharam, that's why all the gurus stood against it! However as you said if the guru's and the shaheed can see what the sikh kaum has become today, we will just reply, what's the big FUSS, doesn't matter that they died and were persecuted over their sikh principles which they never gave up? They must of had been rejected due to caste or class to do and cause all that fuss, rite Singhbj Singh

UKL = I wholeheartedly agreed with you Sikhiseeker Ji. I think Singhbj Singh posted innocently to assist Sikhs in finding a spouse without realising the divisiveness Sangat TV's matrimonial section are promoting . It's definitely not a matter where we can live and let live. It is a brazen affront to Sikhi and must be condemned and opposed even though we all respect other good work Sangat Trust are doing.

The email address to politely but firmly complain to is:

apsmann@sangattelevision.org

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The painful history of 1984 and the Genocide of Sikhs thereafter occurred and there's nothing we can do to turn back time.

However, 30 years on what we youth in the West can certainly do is set ourselves aims and objectives as members of the Sikh Panth to hit the following targets for Panthic upliftment by combatting drugs, alcohol, biraderi, infanticide, illiteracy, cancer and poverty.

UK Sangat to raise £30 million plus by June 2014

Canadian Sangat to C$30 million plus by June 2014

American Sangat to raise $30 million plus by June 2014

Other Diaspora Countries Sangat should target $10million plus by June 2014

India-based Sangat could arguably raise R300crores plus by June 2014

And with an eventual target of national Panj Pyaaray representatives from each country handing over their respective nation Sangat's cheques to the SGPC for firewalled projects for Panthic Upliftment in combatting drugs, alcohol, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy, cancer and poverty and every penny of the funds presented to SGPC in June 2014 being watched over by auditors to confirm that Badal Dal cannot access, use or waste a single penny of the funds raised by Sangat.

Rather than just remembering the past, we need to actively attack the current silent Genocide occuring via infanticide, drugs, cancer, illiteracy, biraderi and poverty.

Let's hear every forum members idea's on how best we actually make this happen.

We all need to contact our local and national Sikh organisations and let's all Sangat spread this agenda like a virus!

ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧

भैरउ महला ५ घरु १

Bẖairo mėhlā 5 gẖar 1

Bhairao, Fifth Mehl, First House:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਸਗਲੀ ਥੀਤਿ ਪਾਸਿ ਡਾਰਿ ਰਾਖੀ ॥

सगली थीति पासि डारि राखी ॥

Saglī thīṯ pās dār rākẖī.

Setting aside all other days, it is said,

ਅਸਟਮ ਥੀਤਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਜਨਮਾ ਸੀ ॥੧॥

असटम थीति गोविंद जनमा सी ॥१॥

Astam thīṯ govinḏ janmā sī. ||1||

that the Lord was born on the eighth lunar day. ||1||

ਭਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਨਰ ਕਰਤ ਕਚਰਾਇਣ ॥

भरमि भूले नर करत कचराइण ॥

Bẖaram bẖūle nar karaṯ kacẖrā▫iṇ.

Deluded and confused by doubt, the mortal practices falsehood.

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਤੇ ਰਹਤ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

जनम मरण ते रहत नाराइण ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Janam maraṇ ṯe rahaṯ nārā▫iṇ. ||1|| rahā▫o.

The Lord is beyond birth and death. ||1||Pause||

ਕਰਿ ਪੰਜੀਰੁ ਖਵਾਇਓ ਚੋਰ ॥

करि पंजीरु खवाइओ चोर ॥

Kar panjīr kẖavā▫i▫o cẖor.

You prepare sweet treats and feed them to your stone god.

ਓਹੁ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਰੇ ਸਾਕਤ ਢੋਰ ॥੨॥

ओहु जनमि न मरै रे साकत ढोर ॥२॥

Oh janam na marai re sākaṯ dẖor. ||2||

God is not born, and He does not die, you foolish, faithless cynic! ||2||

ਸਗਲ ਪਰਾਧ ਦੇਹਿ ਲੋਰੋਨੀ ॥

सगल पराध देहि लोरोनी ॥

Sagal parāḏẖ ḏėh loronī.

You sing lullabies to your stone god - this is the source of all your mistakes.

ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥

सो मुखु जलउ जितु कहहि ठाकुरु जोनी ॥३॥

So mukẖ jala▫o jiṯ kahėh ṯẖākur jonī. ||3||

Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Lord and Master is subject to birth. ||3||

ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

जनमि न मरै न आवै न जाइ ॥

Janam na marai na āvai na jā▫e.

He is not born, and He does not die; He does not come and go in reincarnation.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥

नानक का प्रभु रहिओ समाइ ॥४॥१॥

Nānak kā parabẖ rahi▫o samā▫e. ||4||1||

The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere. ||4||1||

What does the sangat think ?

Paji i think Gurmat and Gurbani and Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are pretty clear cut and self-explanantory above in relation to whether we Sikhs should wrongly copy and wrongly believe in the false Avatar concept as the Hindu's and Christians believe or whether Sikh indeed ik vakhri Qaum ne with a different belief and philosophy.

Jews suffered numerous Genocide(s), latest - genocide at the hands of HITLER.

Does this Blue Star of Jews point to a SIKH GENOCIDE similar to Jews Genocide?

UKL = Khalsa Ji as we all know all Sikhs should tyaar bar tyaar and shastardhari, so provided we can increase ekta within the Panth, there's no major danger of a Hitler-style gas chambers Genocide affecting Sikhs any time soon. However, the silent Genocide inflicted (and also self-facilitated to a degree) in terms of drugs, alcohol, illiteracy, female infanticide, biraderi, cancer and poverty are largely being ignored, so we the ordinary Sangat have to stand up and mark 30years via financial action rather than simply the usual slogans.

Role of the Akalis

UKL = Waljinder Singh Ji, just to politely point out to you that so-called Akali letter you posted was actually a fake put out by Congress and its proxies who liquidated Longowal in order to carry out Genocide of Sikhs we witnessed 1985-1995 (which Longowal had sought in vain to try and prevent)

jagjit chauhan was a big fake and was working with indian govt from the start.

UKL = Imho you are correct as Sant Ji never once asked for Khalistan yet Congress and their proxies brought the term to prominence in order to garner the Hindutva vote for Indira Gandhi (and to blur the equal rights demand made in the Anandpur Sahib Resolution).

The mentality of the British government of the time is shown when instead of urging the Indian government to exercise restraint and look to a peaceful solution, it looks like the government jumped at the chance to do the Indians a favour in return for sales of military equipment. The British government was in a better position than other western governments in putting pressure on the Indian government to not go ahead with the operation by citing the fact that the attack would cause trouble not just in India but also in the UK given the large Sikh population living here.

The Sikh demand should not just be for full disclosure which is the least that can be expected from a responsible government but a real commitment from the government to make amends for the actions of the government of the time. This should take the form of assisting Sikh groups in their fight for justice for the genocide committed by the Indian government.

UKL = I totally agree with you Paji. However, I don't think Cameron etc are going to assist the Qaum for justice any time soon when they are more interested in a consumer market of 1.3 billion people. However, what I believe we should have as our target and focus is to extract at least £30-100million pounds of international development funding allocated by June 2014 to assist human development in Punjab in terms of tackling illiteracy, poverty, drugs, cancer in East Punjab as a small form of compensation from the current UK Sarkar if they seriously expect to see any Sikh votes in May 2015. Serious lobbying could just about pull this off if we see this as our target (rather than just disclosure of UK's collaboration with Indira Gandhi in 1984's Genocide of Sikhs and thereafter)

1. Why has god made this universe?

2.Is it just a little play thing for him?

3. Why even exist instead of nothingness?

4. We believe we have been seperated from him but why did he seperated us?

1. God alone only knows, those of us like myself who are not Mahapursh can hardly be in a position to fathom out why.

2. No, Gurbani only refers metaphorically to this being a "play" not literally. Ik Onkar is not a personality that speaks Hebrew, Arabic or Sanskrit gets bored and plays around. The suffering of millions of starving and dying children or victims of Genocide is no act of "playing".

3. Only God knows but if we merge with God we may found out.

4. Who is to say that we were separated deliberately given that separation and re-merger may be the natural nature of existence (God).

dont get it tho, like what was the point in all this... what was there before all universe... was he that bored?

God is above boredom and mundane human thoughts. The whole question interprets God to be some kind of personality when in fact God is all that is good in the Universe and beyond.

5.So why is he playing this game?

6.Why do we need to praise him?

7. Is he that egotistical that he requires our worship?

5. ParmAathma is not "playing" a game like kids play video games. The whole reference to "play" is that life is an illusion.

6. God doesn't need our praise. Prayer and Naam Simran strengthens us in our life. Rabh doesn't need praise like egotistical human beings.

7. Worship of Ik Onkar is best performed by good deeds to others (as Sant Puran Singh Ji Pingalwara showed true Naam Simran)

We don't know the full nature of God, nor the secret of why exactly we exist in this form ... however, thanks to God, we do know our purpose. And our purpose on Earth is to do seva and create a world of Sarbat Da Bhala with no suffering (Global Begumpura) if we wish to merge with God (as with God there is no suffering ... unlike as exists when we are separate from Ik Onkar).

sikhiseeker, on 21 Jan 2014 - 17:01, said:

So should we all go along with caste, or if we really believe in sikhi and its teaching, try to do everything in our power to kick it out where it has no place? I myself am not married through caste, also neither my wife or I have a Ferrari. Rather than promote caste based marriage, should we not rally to marry within sikhi itself with no basis on caste?

Also an entertainment show is something like "kaun banega gur sikh pyara" on The Sikh Channel. The Matrimonial Show is what it's title states,

Caste is wrong! You cant have a caste and claim to be sikh. Yet we believe in caste and then add singh and kaur to our names....and to think the shaheed gave their lives for this name.

UKL = Well said Paji and proud of you Paji (and my parents and granparents) for marrying across historic, outdated and irrelavant biraderi lines as an ever increasing percentage of our Qaum are doing year by year. The GurSikh background of no caste affiliation has to be forcefully made the majority background of our Panth in order to destroy the anti-Sikh concept of caste.

UKL = DS Bal of Sikh Channel (via his partnership with the Muslim Jatt record label that has a majority of bhangra artists on its books and responsible for the sister station's programming damage to our youth) and Sangat TV need to be flooded by our emails of protest in order to take notice that they may lose direct debits if there is continued inaction regarding the promotion of anti-Sikh concept like caste on supposedly so-called Sikh television stations.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70587-how-to-tackle-jaath-paath-discrimination-in-matrimonials/

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/

Mod Note:

After this post any further foul language and insults will result in either a ban or quality control.

Mod Edit- He used foul language and directly insulted members on this forum with colorful English cuss words.

Wjkk, wjkf

Brothers and Sisters, if we really believe in our guru and we want to win all our panthic issues right now, let us, as the younger generation unite and break away from the caste what binds and limits us, lets move towards the gurus khalsa and become limitless. We can teach our elders that caste is against sikhi, if your to be engaged, ask your parents to look for someone who meets your personal choice from the sikh religion, dont limit yourself to caste! Dont attach caste to the shaheed singhs and singhnia what gave full kurbani for a dharam which rejects caste, how would they feel to know what they gave their lives for in hand to hand battle, being tortured and executed to death would still after martydom, claim them?

If we claim to be sikh, we cannot simply claim a caste! Im sick off hearing historians add on caste to sikh soldiers who fought for the khalsa panth! They are khalsa! Not a certain sikh from 'X' beradarie!

Claim your gurdwaras! Rise against any caste issues in the gurus darbar!

We arague about the meat issue, how killing an animal and eating its meat stunts the growth of ones spiritual connection with parmaatma, yet at the same time we are proud of our beradarie, we wana get married in our own caste to pass on the better genes? We cannot see our fellow human being, our sikh brother and sister the same as us, an equal yet we argue about the equality of an animal, when we are treatining other peope as unequal??? What contradictory moral ground we stand on?

So please sikhs, lets aspire to be Shiri Guru Gobind Singhs Khalsa. Lets not look at other people and say they do this, they say this and lets lead to inspire our younger generation. Our children!

Reprimand the older generation with their caste issues, put them in their place if they claim sikhi when they dont live sikhi!

This is the way we will win our battles of present day!

Be khalsa, the worlds army!!! UNITE

UKL = Well said Paji. If we are serious about "Panth Ki Jeet" biraderi cancer is one of the foremost problems (alongside drugs, alcohol, illiteracy, poverty and female infanticide) we need to eradicate before we can even think of making progress. Matrimonial apartheid, bakhre bakhre Gurdware and the systematic way that our RSS enemies are re-branding the second and third biggest ancestry backgrounds found within the Panth from erstwhile GurSikhs into future generations of Brahmin Valmiki followers and pro-Congress followers of Dera Ballan is a disgrace. And it's an issue that the Panth is widely ignoring. If we in the Diaspora especially don't begin to tackle it immediately there is a chance that in the 2021 Punjab census Sikhs may fall below the 50% threshold.

UKL = Sikhiseeker Ji big respect for raising your voice against this madness that is going on and what we need to urgently do is spread the agenda amongst youth and GurSikhs of Gurdwara mergers in the UK, in the Diaspoora and most importantly in every single village in Punjab.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/

UKL = Matrimonial level apartheid is the other arm of this cancer that we have to amputate within this decade. There's no point being militant re this or that subject if we are not militant in upholding the mere basics of Sikhi such as the simple fact that there should no caste affiliation amongst us.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70587-how-to-tackle-jaath-paath-discrimination-in-matrimonials/

UKL = Knowledge of the original ancestries of our most famous Gurmukhs actually strengthens knowledge of the Unity and Diversity within the Panth. Of course it's important we acknowledge all true GurSikhs by their very nature had no caste (kul nash) yet the divergent backgrounds from whence they came before Amrit should actually be instructive that bravery and GurSikhi have no correlation to erstwhile biraderi (prior to Amrit and the kul nash - rejection of biraderi - by the Khalsa Panth).

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70250-double-standards-hypocrisy-in-sikhs/?p=590756

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/73511-when-it-comes-to-upholding-the-dignity-of-guru-sahib-and-his-khalsa-panth/?p=600687

UKL = Well said as always Khalsa Ji.

Pretty simple. Stop talking about castism and it'll go away. Just like the race issue for African Ameircans. The more you talk about it the more it spreads.

UKL = Brother it's not as simple as that i'm afraid. If Sikhs stop talking about the injustices we are suffering from they won't magicly disappear. However, you are correct that all Sikhs should have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy in respect of not declaring their family ancestry or have a surname other than Singh if we are going to beat this Hindu+Muslim origin cancer that is now even afflicting Sikhs 315 years after 1699.

JDA = I do not feel that caste is such a big issue in the Quom these days.

UKL = Have you been to Doaba bro? Do you know Badal is helping construct a 115 crores Valmiki Mandir in Amritsar to compete with Harmandir Sahib? Do you know that hundreds of thousands of Punjabi's around today are called Kumar and Ram and Kumari and Devi in contrast to their parents and grandparents who were proud Singh's and Kaur's? Do you know that the RSS agenda is to have all Punjabi's of a similar ancestry to the erstwhile background of Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji and Shaheed Bhai Sangat Singh prior to Amrit declared as non-Sikhs by 2021 thereby reducing the Sikh percentage in Punjab to below 50% by the 2021 census?

JDA = Caste discrimination occurred when I was younger, but is never seen now and good riddance. For instance when I was younger there was a pecking order in the Gurudwara about how close to Maharaj you could sit depending on your caste.

UKL = I have never heard of anything so disgusting ever occuring in the UK! Any instances of such depraved thinking need to be tackled aggressively!

This is unheard of nowadays.

UKL = Rabh di mehr aii! Such acts by so-called Sikhs themselves are tantamount to the biggest possible Beadbi occurring.

JDA = There was a recent post (not sure to where it was shifted to - it was in the 'What's Happening' section) about double-standards of bhangra singers having homai about their caste in their songs and then making dharmic albums. This is just another way of how caste barriers have changed. Again when I was younger my father berated me wanting to sing (I am not a singer by the way!) just like the guys I saw on the (then) upcoming UK bhangra scene. He said that Jat boys should not be singing because that was the what lowly Mirasis did and it was be'izti to our biradari to ape them in that way. Fast forwards a few decades and attitudes had shifted.

UKL = Muslims despise Bhai Mardana Ji as a "Kanjar" according to them (the name of the tribe of those who sing). To us Sikhs Bhai Mardana Ji is our 1st Sikh in History and thus the Mirasi or musical or kirtani traditional occupation cannot ever be described as lowly. Some of the lowest of the low in Punjab were the racist so-called high caste Muslim Jatts/Rajputs/Arains/Gujjars/Awans/Syeds who tried to perpetrate ethnic cleansing upon Sikhs because they despised our Qaum as being the aulaadh of chure-chamar (as the Muslims described the Sikhs).

JDA = I feel that the issue of marrying into one's caste is separate.

UKL = No it's not. Apartheid was rejected even in South Africa in the last century. Yet Hindu's, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists and so-called Sikhs continue to practice matrimonial apartheid even in this century. Until across bbiraderi marriages are actively encouraged we will not beat this cancer.

JDA = (The Mughals said that ...) Our Gurus never married out of caste.

UKL = That was the lie pimped out by Muslim and Hindu authors against our Guru Sahib. However, when we see that Mata Gujjar Kaur (the wife of Dhan Dhan Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji and Mother of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj Ji) was originally of Gujjar family ancestry and similarly in the case of Mata Ganga Ji (wife of Guru Arjan Devi Ji Maharaj) we quite clearly see that our Guru Sahib married according to kul nash Gurmat and this is indisputable given their spouses of differing backgrounds that the authors working for the RSS and Mughals fail to mention. Our Guru Sahib had no caste full stop. Prophet Muhammad was proud of his Brahmin (Qureshi) caste and Ram and Krishna were proud of their Kshatriya caste status. However, our Guru Sahib ate with those whom the Hindu's and Muslims considered low castes whilst Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Mahraj themselves partook of Amrit from the brave Panj Pyaaray that the Hindu's and Muslims despised as low castes.

Punjabi culture has nothing in common with Sikhi and Gurmat and nothing positive to add to it. Most Punjabi's are Muslims after all.

However, instead of bezti we should at the lessons to be learned from this regarding Sangat involvement and the value of good Sangat in a child's upbringing and more generally.

Greater Sangat interaction with the family whose Mother became a widower when this woman Rose was a teenager could perhaps have avoided the paths, decisions and outcomes that led to the recent tragedy. It is vital to introduce good Gurdwara Sangat to young children growing up particularly so in areas where Sikhs are a miniscule minority such as in Edinburgh, Scotland. So it's up to all of us to look out for families who have suffered bereavement in similar situations today and in the future.

Also, instead of focussing on what this woman Rose may or may not have done, our focus as a community should be to ensure that her four surviving innocent Sikh children are looked after by the community as one of our own as the innocent lives they are rather than thrust into foster care and forgotten about by some (not referring to anyone in the thread) who may judge a child for the sins of their parents.

And regardless of these four innocent children, more and more Sikhs should step up as foster parents and more importantly adoptive parents instead of wasting money on expensive fertility treatments potentially or more worryingly ... jadoo and mantra's by pakhandi babey crooks etc.

Unfortunately, my replies are being deleted by people who do not want to answer them.

UKL = Don't worry my posts often get deleted too simply for stating a (Giani Ditt Singh's) Singh Sabha pro-Gurmat viewpoint.

But you will get my full support when I see that the campaign for justice is not being hijacked by those who want to destroy and disintegrate india

UKL = Regardless of who is affiliated to a campaign for justice, insaaf is exactly that. You should support justice regardless of those (you dislike) who wish to see justice for suffering innocents.

especially with pakistani support.

UKL = The Pakistani support angle is a monstrous lie aimed at Sikhs. How can we Sikhs who saw 20% of our Qaum's population butchered to death in the 1947 Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs have anything to do with murderers who killed in per capita terms twenty times as many innocent victims as the Nehru-Gandhi empire did? It is an old ploy to denigrate Sikhs and it has no basis. Personally, I feel no Sikhs should give the terrorist Pakistani regime any hard currency via pilgrimages (which in of themselves are contradictory to Gurmat).

Just the other day I saw two videos of sikhs - one was saying that we should be butchering and eating cows in our gurudwaras, and the other was basically calling "sita" a .

UKL = For you to mention these is an utter distraction from the issue at hand! So what if a couple of fruitcakes have idea's which are wholly repudiated by 99.99% of the Sikh community?

UKL = Worryingly however, my estimate is that a good 33% of the so-called forward caste Hindu population (primarily Khatri's, Rajputs, Brahmins, Bania etc) were fully in support of Indira Gandhi's evil terrorist actions in 1984 as borne out by Rajiv's electoral success thereafter.

And those kinds of videos (I cannot blame the entire the sikh community) are not making you any friends...

UKL = Agreed that there is no point to offend Hindu's needlessly given that the greatest number of new members of the Khalsa Panth are likely to arise from erstwhile so-called Hindu backgrounds but two videos are simply not representative of mainstream Sikh opinion. Indira adopted the same approach by portraying one segment of the community as representative of all of it.

But I am happy to see that the sikhs are finally using political astuteness to get their legitimate demands, and the government is starting to bend.

UKL = I think, in hindsight, everyone can see that hundreds of thousands of innocent Sikhs were murdered as a result of terrorist Dehli government being more politically astute than the response from Punjab after 1980 where even Mehta Taksal were unwittingly roped into getting Indira Gandhi back to Prime Ministerial power in 1980 and thereby facilitating 1984 to transpire.