UKLondonSikh

So come on fellow soldiers ... how do we achieve our aims in reality ... and what do you think is a realistic timeframe for getting to that day of true SatSangat? Can the youth flood Gurdwara's memberships given the rules and restrictions in place or are local petitions and referendums more realistically achievable? Your ideas are welcome as this issue really hurts all sincere Sikhs and makes me very ashamed of our community. How can we spread Sikhi when this cancer within our community is plain for all to see? It's 2012 and at the matrimonial stage this baqwaas becomes relevant!? No wonder the enemies of the Panth saw an easy opening to splinter away the Ravidassia ancestry brothers and sisters among us after Vienna, despite the fact genetics proves we are part of a united+genetically related human family.

I very much agree with N30Singh, Sherdil and the Cali Sardar as stated below ... however, I'm gana focus my reply to West London Singh below >>Paji I salute your clear-cut hamdardhi to see our Qaum + Panth safe from our enemies ... but I respectfully disagree with you as to what our priorities should be in 2012. I genuinely believe that instead of raising say 10k for azad Punjab ... that the very same 10k can be much more beneficially deployed making the Sikh youth in Punjab mazbooth in their Sikhi to be able to withstand the temptations of drugs ... and to help the gareeb+downtrodden throughout India (regardless of their faith) and globally ... and combatting the proliferation of fake dera's + Sangat disunity amongst Sikhs through different Gurdwaras. Let's not give up the fight against oppression ... let's just fight it in a more intelligent, subtle and more results-orientated way. Obviously some say it's not possible to include Haryana in a new independent nation whilst others believe it can be despite 95% of the Jatts of Haryana like Sajjan Kumar being Hindu ... but do you perhaps see that we as Sikhs have the ability to aim for all of India in a longer term sense instead of restricting the message to 50,000 sq/km + thereby polarising the other 1.2billion to think that they can never join us? >>Rabh Rakha WLS Paji + bhul chuk maaf ... i respect your position ... i hope you see that we are still very much on the same team to see our Panth flourish ... and I hate all the evil indian politicians + their goons who have escaped justice in India all these years just as much as you. I don't particularly give a stuff about the institutions of the central government in Delhi that have no respect for human rights for a wide spectrum of the Indian population (which is not limited to Sikhs ... as I really believe Sikhs are actually better off than hundreds of millions of innocent Hindu's in the wretchedly unjust state of India as it currently exists)

True Paji + i think it very much depends on family ... perhaps your family were more religious than others families back then where the dad is having a glassy to celebrate this harvest nonsense ... what it leads on to ... is how mentoring of (particularly) Sehajdhari youth (in a non-judgemental way by Gursikhs) is critical. Obviously mentors would not be restricted to Gursikhs anyway of course. As far as I heard it from Giani i respect ... no point "celebrating" a harvest festival when others on this planet going hungry ...

But in a sense kalyugi it's kind of our fault ... if people knew what Vasakhi was actually about ... i reckon all the sharabi crew might even give it a break for 1day! Those that know just have to push the message harder ... but the bhangra labels are killing us + much as i say hats off to D.Bal for doing Sikh Channel ... we have to hit him with feedback that his other station is doing our youngsters harm in terms of the caste baqwaas, alcolhol baqwaas + "punjabi version of 50cent mentality". For all the honest Sikhs that know ... we can't compete with a tv station ... so we got to try cut the root by polite persuasion initially of Davinder Bal for starters

Paji this was an awesome post ... i had wanted PPP to do better than they did ... maybe they will have better luck in 2017 ... and to yourself brother keep doing what you're doing ... I salute you + hope God blesses with more strength for intellectual sewa. Everybody can do their bit. We all work. Paisa from honest work donated to helping those in need ... will one day begin to take the ground from under the feet of the oppressors in all nations. Universal education + stopping drugs/caste/splintering in Punjab will start to turn back the tide of oppression in terms of human rights and economic+educational equality

Thanks 10th regiment ... yep if every1 of us keep telling every1 else we know ... 1day non-Sikhs (most importantly) will truly get Vasakhi is about + what it means ... instead of all this party-vibe atmosphere ... that apne youth being encouraged to down a beer or some drug to "celebrate" In today's day+age Khalsa Fauj can be achieved through the medium of the UN to ensure that things like genocides like Rwanda + DR Congo don't happen again ...

We can do it Paji. One day it's gana happen. The youth are already in support of this. Problem is the old timers crowd who came here from India control the Gurdwaray committees. But those stupid Bhangra records that promote caste affinity don't help things. And the Vienna business put us back as well. Shame that certain people don't know about Giani Ditt Singh ... when they accuse certain overtly united Gurdwaray as belonging to one section of the community

Yeah i know what u mean Balait da Sher ... but what if we end up with no station anyway due to the viewers not coming up with enough donations ... and is it morally right for us to spend 60k per month on 2 channels (when 30k on a merged channel would be enough) + when the surplus we could use to push the agenda of Sikhi which nine times out of ten translates as charitable assistance to the gareeb

... rather than several Gurdwaray in a Pind or here in the West? As far as I know even Gurdwara are only meant to be named "Local Area" Gurdwara rather than after any individual (no matter how supreme the individual was ... if I can even use that word) as Guru Sahib reminded us never to deflect from rememberance of God first and foremost. Can the youth in the West force such a change within 5 years? How can we do it? By perhaps flooding local memberships to force Gurdwaray to merge through weight of Sangat opinion? SGPC must have said something about this (or have they shockingly remained silent?) A joint Nagar Kirtan but memberships that restrict a person from being a member (on the basis of both parents not being such & such) sickens me. Without unity on such a basic principle, the crooked disunity+discrimination managements are trying to kill the Panth from within far worse than what Indira did in 1984 or even the 300,000 Sikhs the Punjabi's from Nankana Sahib side killed in 1947. The empty Gurdwara sites would be used for the community for sports/elderly/TEFL etc and/or sold to push charitable aims like how Khalsa Aid, Sukrit Trust etc to name but two are doing their best to help Sikh and non-Sikhs alike where need is greatest

Let's say each channel costs 80k a month to operate ... 2 channels = 160k per month ... via petition from the wider Sangat including the people on this forum ... i'd like to see 1 channel that costs the assumed 80k per month ... with the other 80k per month (=£1million a year) used for charitable purposes to help Sikhs and non-Sikhs that need help. I'm sure a lot of people agree with me so how best could we force a merger for the charitable reason alone. If nobody on the planet was hungry or denied an education or access to health then yeah i'm sure 2 channels wouldn't be a bad thing to introduce a bit more of a spectrum of views ... but right now I think there should be one channel ... and only we can pressure and petition to enforce the same.

On Vasakhi 1699 after the first two Khalsay had stood up ... Guru Gobind Singh Ji (the sixth Khalsa) gave three more calls. Mohkam Chand, a Gujarati calico printer/tailor from DwarkaNagar, Himmat Rai, a water-bearer from Jagannath Puri in Orissa, and Sahib Shah, a barber from Bidar (south India), stood up one after another and advanced to offer their heads. ... a minority of the wider Punjabi community is Sikh ... most Punjabi's are Muslims and there are more Hindi speaking "Punjabi's" in the historic parts of pre-1966 Punjab. So we as Sikhs need to fight back against this nonsense portraying Sikhs as the equivalent of Punjabi's as they seek to limit the truth to a small part of Punjab only. Even the Muslim Jatts that killed 300,000 Sikhs in 1947 and the Hindu Jatts like Sajjan Kumar laugh at the ridiculousness of some Sikhs associating an ancestry with their name as a mark of pride given the fact that even the vast majority of Jatts are Muslim and Hindu ... So again we as Sikhs need to fight against our Panth being associated with any particular ancestry backgrounds (because that's exactly what our enemies want) So let's be clear anybody in 2012 who proclaims their ancestry background from the rooftops is not a Sikh and Punjabiyat has no relavance to Sikhi. Anybody into Bhangra please tell your favourite artists that you will not buy their records if they continue to promote alcohol + caste on behalf of a Muslim record label like Moviebox. Sikhi is falsely portrayed by the Panth's enemies and for the record let me state that i think a billion or so Hindu's are generally good people (the 800 million or so Hindu's who live in poverty I consider as Sikh in my eyes anyway ... before someone misinterprets my stab at the Panth's enemies)

Humkire Ji ... read your posts today and really uplifted by your thoughts. I salute you. However, as a Uk da mundah myself ... i think initially RebelSingh did not mean to say "mate" in any disrespectful way. That said RebelSingh if you address a changah GurSikh like humkire like you did do later in the thread ... well all i'll request (mate) is that u show a bit more "love" to fellow Sikhs. I was really humbled to read humkire Ji's posts. That said I don't believe certain Sakhi-ah. Remember that some were introduced by the enemies of Sikhi to confuse the honest Sangat. Rely on the Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the true guide ... and try to take the spiritual meaning from a Sakhi (if you believe it) even if the facts are highly disputable ... in the spirit of Vasakhi ... please give humkire a cyber-handshake ... i honestly tell u (as a mate) that he's a changah Sikh from cares about our Dharam (just as much as you feel you do). Rabh Rakha

As long as we all strive to educate Sikh girls that a basis of Sikhi is equality between men + women whereas Islam openly gives lesser value to females and openly discriminates against women, the Muslims that seek financial reward per convert they get should be kept at bay. If anything Sikh girls + boys equally should know that nobody worth their while would ever ask them to convert ... but i do wonder if Muslim girls have that spirit to ask guys to convert (why don't Sikh girls test a guy's devotion to them by insisting on the same, for example, with a change of name by deedpoll to Singh etc amongst other tests) ... and why in some cases Sikh guys are so spineless in the opposite (less common) scenario ... but thankfully those are isolated incidents involving weak individuals that have poor knowledge of supposedly their "own" faith

1stly West London Singh ... i thought all of us pronounced it with a V :-) But more importantly let us spread the knowledge amongst Sikhs and non-Sikhs that ... Four of the Panj Pyaaray were non-Punjabi's ... let us analyse their backgrounds and ask ourselves why 313 years later caste resonates amongst many in the community and what all of us on this site can do in our lives to destroy the caste system. Let's also remember that there is no reason more Gujrati's, Dravidians and folks from Orissa can't join the Panth in the future ... because the Panth is about ParmAthma, justice + equality ... and a global spiritual nation. Now that its 2012 ... let some amongst our community quit making comments about Hindu's given the ancestry of the Panj Pyaaray ... and for that matter does anybody agree that Brahminwaad or Brahminism should be deleted from our Panth's vocabulary given that those from that ancestry who were closest to Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji ... such as Bhai Mati Das & Bhai Sati Das ... can be an inspiration for all of India's Brahmins to join Sikhi and indeed the Khalsa Panth

>>To RebelSingh ... in November 1984 i as a child became pro-Khalistan. However in 2012 with Dr Manmohan Singh as Prime Minister of India, Sikhs at highest levels for India re the UN + Indian Army, a majortity of Sikh MP's + MLA's in Punjab at present ... i believe to work on Khalsa Raj as a concept is more important ... having said that if the current state of Punjab became Khalistan peacefully then I don't really think many Sikhs would oppose that (on the assumption that corruption, drug use and caste hegemony lessened in such a scenario + that a more just society was ushered in thereafter in Punjab). Well the common thing is coz they dont understand the following things (in my crappy opinion): 1)Panjab/Sikhs were/was/is of a seperate country before british annexed it (and we wud like it back) >>Absolutely correct, I don't think anybody will argue with you too much on the first part that's not in brackets 2)They dont understand the lies told 2 sikhs by nehru/gandhi, and how sikhs cudda had khalistan in 47', but were sold out by "our" leaders >>Nehru may have lied, i'm not so sure Gandhi did in the sense of opposing Sikhs. Certainly Sikhs were sold out by our leaders to an extent ... but at the same time ... when Sikhs were a minority in Punjab ... our leaders playing hand was a bit weak due to population demographics ... but look that was 1947 ... let's look to 2012 and beyond (rather than strictly through the prism of 1984 ... which of course doesn't mean we should forget 84 or not continue to strive for justice/support for the victims) 3)They dont understand panjab has been bullied and discriminated since 47' >>I think an overwhelming majority of Sikhs do understand that. I even think a majority of decent Hindu's acknowledge that 4)They dont know that Indian Govt was planning 2 invade Harmandir Sahib TWO yrs b4 it happened, n jus think that bhindrawale was a "terrorist" coz he had weapons inside there (So did Guru Hargobind)! >>I think most Sikhs realise that Sikhs were "set up" from the get go by Indira on the whole Bluestar+Khalistan idea itself. An overwhelming majority of Sikhs never took Khalistan (coined by Congress) seriously until the unfortunate events of 84 5)They think it wont survive, coz it doesnt have coastal/sea ports (NEITHER DID MAHARAJA RANJIT SINGH, IDIOTS), but there r various khalistan maps drawn up (look below) >>Sea access is not necassary for a nation to function, several landlocked countries prove that ... however, let's get real with the maps ... the only place Khalistan can realistically be achieved (peacefully+democratically) is in areas of Sikh majority ... that would mean that a new Khalistan would in all likelihood not even include all of the current territory in the state of Punjab. 6)THIS IS FUNNIEST ONE - It WONT have a military 2 cope with pakistans invasion! LOL!! i aint even gonna go here, such is the dumb nature of the question! (But read the statement below) http://storerooom.wo...e-mighty-sikhs/ >>Yep i'll ignore that point as well (though it does sadden me that Pakistan has a population around 7 times larger than the state of Punjab ... and a land area eighteen bigger than Punjab state) 7)They think ALL non believers (hindus/christians/muslims) will be removed from our lands! When in history (apart from partition) did we EVER EVER ethincally cleanse ppl out of our hoods'? >>Very true. I'm not pro-Khalistan but I always support the right for my Sikh brothers that support the concept along peaceful lines to have the freedom to voice their opinion. To malign Khalistan by saying minorities would be ethnically cleansed is like judging Sikhs on the standards set by other folks in Delhi etc in 1984 8) Khalistan wud be poor economically coz india will "refuse" 2 trade with us?!? Well 400m ppl in india live below poverty line, is it me, or wud khalistan (with its beautiful food producin lands) actually call the shots on the price, not its starvin neighbours. >>Agreed, I think mr rizzo (sorry i got your handle wrong bro :-) had brilliant points and with whom i mostly agree ... but Punjab would certainly be economical viable. http://www.sikhiwiki...f_Khalistan.jpg - This is the most likely Map of khalistan (Panjab/haryana/Himachal/Northern parts rajastan) >>Himachal + Haryana will never willingly agree to be part of Khalistan. I mean Nankana Sahib is hardly gana be inside any Khalistan so no point including the Sikh-hating Jatts like Sajjan Kumar inside Khalistan maps. Those maps are totally fanciful+unrealistic http://republicofkha...RONT%20copy.jpg - This is one that i like, but unlikely (includes jammu/gang doab?/western Gujarat/Rajastan) (I apologise if i dont come across intellectual, im jus a person whos still learning) >>In conclusion bro, I believe we need to eradicate drug use amongst the young, eliminate the concept of caste within Sikh minds + look at turning all of India into a spiritual-leaning Khalistan as a pre-cursor to Global Khalsa Raj. Now I don't mean a Sikh Empire bigger than the British one ... but a world where there is justice and equality for all ... in such a world the Guru Granth Sahib Ji's message would flourish most.