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UKLondonSikh

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Everything posted by UKLondonSikh

  1. Mehtab Singh Paji, the painful history of 1984 occurred and there's nothing we can do to turn back time. However, 30 years on what we youth in the West can certainly do is set ourselves aims and objectives as members of the Sikh Panth to hit the following targets for Panthic upliftment by combatting drugs, alcohol, biraderi, infanticide, illiteracy, cancer and poverty. UK Sangat to raise £30 million plus by June 2014 Canadian Sangat to C$30 million plus by June 2014 American Sangat to raise $30 million plus by June 2014 Other Diaspora Countries Sangat should target $10million plus by June 2014 India-based Sangat could arguably raise R300crores And with an eventual target of national Panj Pyaaray representatives from each country handing over their respective nation Sangat's cheques to the SGPC for firewalled projects for Panthic Upliftment in combatting drugs, alcohol, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy, cancer and poverty and every penny of the funds presented to SGPC in June 2014 being watched over by auditors to confirm that Badal Dal cannot access, use or waste a single penny of the funds raised by Sangat. Rather than just remembering the past, we need to actively attack the current silent Genocide occuring via infanticide, drugs, cancer, illiteracy, biraderi and poverty. I would like to hear every forum members idea's on how we make this happen. I will write to Sikh Council UK and I hope all Sangat can spread this agenda like a virus! Mehtab Singh Ji can you pin this please Bhai Sahib?
  2. UKL = If you want India to remain a united country for defence purposes against terrorists from Pakistan (as advocated in the Anandpur Sahib Resolution) the best thing you can do is join Sikhs in their various campaigns for justice for innocent long-suffering Sikhs as well as other oppressed peoples in India. You should campaign for the Anandpur Sahib Resolution as had Delhi implemented it in 1980 there would have been more aman shanti and collective economic progress and development today as a result. You should utilise all your contacts to further push the agenda for justice for political prisoners, to stop the flow of Pakistani drugs into East Punjab (made easy by Delhi as a means of drugging out the youth), for Punjabi farmers to get market prices (that the Indian Treasury can now afford to easily sustain) for strategic reasons and you should work so that more and more so-called Hindu's come into the Sikh fold as the agenda of Sikhi is simply for the welfare and benefit of all. The more central government ignores call for justice and equality from Sikhs the more your true enemies from Islamabad rub their hands in glee that Delhi are wasting their energies opposing Sikh calls for justice, instead of dealing with events like the Mumbai attack or incursions in Kashmir.
  3. Khalsa Ji (Jagtar Singh Bhai Sahib) i'm just reposting this here in order that hopefully others could join the discussion to put forward whether they feel which word out of "freedom" or "rights" will help us achieve more Panthic Upliftment (and political mileage) out of the 8th June 2014 rally ... as the other thread locked prior to debate continuing. I also feel the points below are even more crucial given the revalations of UK government support for the terrorist actions of Indira Gandhi in 1984. JagtarSinghKhalsa, on 27 Dec 2013 - 09:55, said: UKL = Khalsa Ji i agree with you on what you say above. However, i think that the word RIGHTS encompasses all the issues you list above and the RIGHT to self-determination is a birthright of all human beings but particularly the Sikh Panth that has suffered and continues to suffer systematic Genocide at the hands of our opponents in Delhi. I 100% strongly believe that UPLIFTMENT of our Panth should be the main goal of what we are trying to achieve with Hyde Park June 2014. I was going to write to Sikh Council on exactly this point but given that you are from the FSO what better person to ask if there is the possiblity of Sarbat Khalsa discussing this issue and weighing it up as to the pro's and con's of the alternating terms suggested for June 2014. jashb, on 27 Dec 2013 - 15:52, said: jashb, on 27 Dec 2013 - 16:04, said: UKL = I hear you bir'ay. Without a doubt our loyalty should only ever be to Nishan Sahib and Sarbat Da Bhala rather than a corrupt terrorist centralised state that oppresses the innocent. The Khalsa Panth is nirvair with love for all within the beautiful spectrum of humanity so desiring freedom from oppression is something that no Sikh should ever have to apologise for. However, I believe we have much LESS to lose (and more to gain) by substituting the word RIGHTS for Freedom and terming the Rally as a "Peace" March. 1. We get more attendance ... i think we can hit 200,000 if we market it as a Remembrance+Rights Peace March. 2. Greater attendance results in greater local and international coverage. 3. We increase Unity internally by virtue of the fact only self-haters could possibly oppose or not participate in a Remembrance and Rights Peace March. 4. By using wording which would make the Rally palatable to GOI's friends such as USA, UK etc then Cameron and the majority of UK politicians that seek Sikh votes in 2015 would have no political option but to endorse the wave towards achieving Justice. 5. Instead of getting Sikh organisations labelled as terrorist outfits we can actively lobby for Overseas Developement Funds to go towards uplifting poor Sikhs. 6. Certain Biraderi Golak committees do not send any representation annually. Via the substitution of one word I think it would be hard for them to stop their own Sangat participating. This is vital if we are going to attempt Gurdwara mergers in the UK as a pre-cursor to ensuring that the Panth only has one saanjha Gurdwara per locality. http://www.sikhsanga...per-local-area/ 7. In the context that we are only 7 years away from the 2021 Indian Census and the RSS aim of Sikhs being a minority in the whole of East Punjab by then (not just Doaba where we are currently a minority) I strongly believe that history will judge us very harshly if we don't have the awareness to realise that combatting drugs, biraderi, illiteracy, poverty, infanticide, alcohol + health indicators (cancer/fertility) as vital foundation blocks without which no house of shelter free from GOI terrorism can stand. 8. Those such as Namdhari's, Nirankari's, Radha Soami's, Dera Ballan, Hindu Mandirs and non-Sikhs etc would have no excuse not to engage and support the mainstream Sikh community in our quest for justice and equality for all. Via greater engagement with the said communities we can build bridges as increased parchaar is the best way to turn our erstwhile enemies into future loyal members of the Panth rather than the Congress sycophants many of the leaders of the same currently are. 9. If we can triple attendance out of nowhere in June 2014 on the basis of a Remembrance and "Rights" (Peace) March ... that would give us scope to start claiming it as an "anti-Genocide" march from 2015 onwards which could bring even greater numbers of mainstream UK population participation and provide even greater scope for parchaar and fundraising for upliftment of our Panth's poorest and most suffering sections and thereafter towards Sarbat Da Bhala. 10. We have to definitely recognise that USA, Russia, UK and France all want a united India as a counterweight to China and export market. China itself illegally annexed the independent nation of Tibet and recognises that Sikhs as a 1.8% minority within India are not worth assisting if a 1.3 billion population export market is jeopardised as a result. Delhi itself realises it cannot relinquish terrorist control of East Punjab so long as Pakistan remains a united nation in its current form. Therefore, given that our Qaum is considerably worse off than we were in 1984 on all the main indices we need to take a seriously different approach rather than simply chanting slogans (which I believe will give the Indian media the chance to paint us as terrorists and actively make things worse on the ground for our brothers and sisters in Punjab). The biggest proof I can give in support of why we urgently need to take a different approach and focus on June 2014 being all about combatting drugs, illiteracy, female infantcide and biraderi is that in this millenium all those issues have got worse year after year. So whilst we think that increased attendance at rallies for Khalistan this millenium have moved us forward, the reality on the ground in Punjab is that every indicator is getting worse. The fact that we Sikhs are a minority in Doaba (where a plebiscite for independence would be roundly voted down) should be a wake up call that we need to get the basics right ... and that we shouldn't run before we can walk in the context that in the years after 1984 there was almost 100% unity within the Qaum and the Panthic self-defence (against terrorism by GOI) Lehar had full support prior to Black Cats and Beanta killing so many innocents. Now we see bakhre bakhre Gurdware. GOI in 1984 was 100 times stronger than the Panth in terms of economic and military resources. GOI is immeasurably stronger today compared to what it was back 30 years. We are immeasurably weaker in our spiritual adherence to Sikhi nowadays and hence talk of Khalistan and freedom is more of a distraction taking our eyes off the ball of the sad reality in front of us that needs to be addressed first. In simple terms, once we have 99% literacy, 99% not partaking in drugs or alcohol, 100% saanjhe Gurdware and Qaum, an equal male/female ratio and poverty eliminated ... self-rule will be a formality as each and every man, woman and child would be willing to give their life to oppose (GOI) terrorism if Khalsa Raj over all of India was not demographically likely. Obviously, I don't have all the answers bir'ay but this is a subject that Sarbat Khalsa, Sikh Council UK and FSO all need to discuss and decide how we use June 2014 to push the Panth forward short term (and thereby faster towards ultimate freedom from tyranny). To commemorate 30years of continuing injustice we UK Sangat need to raise a minimum of £30million by June 8th 2014 to push forward projects that defeat drugs, alcohol, female infanticide, illiteracy, biraderi, cancer and poverty in Punjab which would be deployed by a Khalsa Fauj of volunteers and openly audited to ensure that every penny of the said funds goes into Panthic Upliftment for those areas as opposed to corrupt gain or anything that could fall under the West's anti-terrorism purview. At the same time we should try our best to extract £30 million plus of Overseas Development Funding from Cameron etc given the UK Government's disgusting role in support Indira+GOI in 1984 and even today (whilst Sikhs are still patiently and peacefully in search of justice). Via Gift Aid our donations would increase further still previously outlined by posters on this forum before: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/individuals/giving/gift-aid.htm
  4. UKL = Jaspreet Paji, first off I support HSM Paji's right to his opinion on events. Why not let us all debate matters where we all have differing opinions with a spirit of brotherhood? HSM Paji, you, N30 Paji, 559 Paji, Jonny Paji are all on the same team so if we disagree why should we get too direct or too personal for Sangat's liking? The Singh may have been justified, perhaps he was not ... we can only judge when in possession of all facts. But more importantly even if our viewpoints differ on this we still all unitedly need to fight against drugs, infanticide, alcohol, biraderi, illiteracy issues within the Qaum so why not let all of us strive to see our common ground first (more often than we focus on our minor differences). N30 Paji is not exactly a fan of Singh Sabha ideology, 559 Paji might not appreciate Panthpreet Singh Khalsa Ji's katha and Jonny Paji might believe in miracles but they are three of the stalwarts on this forum that the vast majority of the Sangat respect as honest GurSikhs even when we might strongly disagree with them on subjects from time. UKL = Even though Singh559 is not fully appreciative of Longowal Ji and feels that he betrayed the Panth, I will tell you straight that I fully 100% respect Longowal Sahib's dedication to the Panth and I fully believe he saw the writing on the wall in 1984 that GOI intended the Genocide of a whole generation of GurSikhs thereafter and he tried his best to prevent that (even if that meant people would view him as a traitor). I don't care if any Sikh reads a single books and after that disses Longowal Ji and Tohra Sahib ... both (imho) were 100% committed to Sikhi in their own ways and I will try to make time to explain to you on PM why I strongly feel that. It's very sad that we Sikhs have a tendency to label people as sellouts or RSS just because we can't appreciate the different vision or interpretation someone else holds. I'm no supporter of "Sant Baba" Harnam Singh "Khalsa" Dhumma ("Bhindrawala") or Dhumma as you may refer to him but even in respect of him there is a line of thinking to say that Mehta Taksal have achieved more by aligning with Badal Dal than they did by aligning with Congress in 1980 (in opposition to Akali Dal at the time). UKL = If 559 Paji stinks, then I wish more young Sikhs in the Diaspora would "smell" like him ... in wearing a Dastar, renouncing biraderi affiliations and appreciating Bhai Pinderpal Singh Ji and Sant Maskeen Ji as much as he does at his age all in a state like California!
  5. You're absolutely right Paji and it was indeed Gurmail Singh Ji of Sikh Council on the line yesterday. You know what our enemies fear the most? It's the common man of India becoming Sikh ideologically and spiritually in their millions. Even though the military defence of innocent pilgrims at Darbar Sahib was indeed not a "loss" in that sense, the more painful defeat that can only give us shame is the drugs, alcohol, illiteracy, biraderi, infanticide, cancer and corruption situation 30 years on from 1984. What Cameron and the Tory scum who aided Indira need to do is pledge tens of millions of development funding to help uplift our Qaum from the state we are in, as some of feeble apology for their collusion with Indira 30 years ago ... if they expect to see Sikh votes in 2015.
  6. UKL = Amandeep your wording above is utterly wrong, arrogant and offensive. I hope you will have the grace to retract your first sentence from the above. In essence, so Sikhs suffer discrimination at the hands of our central government opponents in Delhi and we Sikhs are the ones that "started it" in your eyes?? History clearly illuminates the facts that Sikhs are the innocent victims since 1980 (and indeed earlier too). Sikhs do not start fights as aggressors. However, we will react in self-defence if peaceful means fail. Prior to the Genocidal attack on Harmandir Sahib and 35 of the main Gurdwara's as well as the Genocide unleashed in November 1984 Sikhs used solely peaceful means to request justice from a terrorist regime headed by Indira. In response to the systematic Genocide of lakhs (hundreds of thousands) of young Sikhs simply for keeping kes do you think the whole Panth would sit back and relax? The Pakistani's killed 20% of our Qaum in Pakistan in 1947 and then acted surprised when Sikhs defended ourselves from ethnic cleansing that so-called upper caste Muslim Jatts/Rajputs/Awans/Arains/Syeds initiated in East Punjab against non-Muslims. Indira's terrorist regime killed off 1% of our entire Qaum's population (to put that into context ... the equivalent of if 13 million Indians were killed tomorrow) ... so would you simply sit down and undertake a fast if 13million Indians were killed tomorrow by Pakistani Punjabi Muslims like the Ajmal Kassab from the Muslim Butt (Brahmin) caste!? Thus terrorist persecution of innocent peaceful Sikhs by the central Government was bound to result in Sikhs demanding an end to terrorism orchestrated from Delhi. UKL = The Sikh Panth is a Qaum that is entirely peaceful with Sarbat Da Bhala (the welfare of all) as our motto and Kirat Karo Naam Japo Vand Chhako as our guiding philosophy. We never start wars ... but regardless of the GhalluGhara's (Genocides) we face we will always emerge triumphant. One on one (or against reasonable odds) we don't fear anybody, we don't retreat and we don't surrender. Though Indira and the central Government adversaries of Sikhs started the war, the Panth will emerge victorious, if not today, if not tomorrow, the Panth will win in the end so long as we truly believe in Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh. Khalistan as a concept drafted by Indira was limited to the 50,000 sq/km of East Punjab. Khalsa Raj (for the benefit of all) can arguably provide justice to billions across 3,280,000 sq/km of present day Indian territory as a pre-cursor to global justice. The question is which side are you going to be on? Do you want justice for all (Sikhi) or continue spouting apologetics for the evil unjust status quo? UKL = Paji you expressed the truth perfectly. Does Hindustani really think he would remain peaceful and not fight for freedom from oppression and terrorism if Pakistan killed 13million Indians tomorrow whilst obliterating the top 35 Hindu Mandirs and worshippers inside them in India tomorrow!? Of course not! UKL = Paji i don't think the rich criminal elite bureaucrats from Delhi that feed off the blood, sweat and tears of the poor are representative of 1000 million so-called Hindu's any more than Gill, Brar or Badal are representative of Sikhs. Part of the Hindutva agenda is to polarise Sikhs into viewing ALL (or most) Hindu's as our opponents (which is not the case). In fact erstwhile Hindu's have and will be the main new blood to revitalise the Khalsa Panth in this century. As our RSS enemies understand that if we begin to realise that hundreds of millions of poor and oppressed so-called Hindu's are actually natural born Sikhs (albeit sehajdhari) then the RSS political base will evaporate overnight. We should strive to explain to the 90% or so of so-called Hindu's who have no enmity with Sikhs that they should join the Sikh Panth just as our Panj Pyaaray came from South India, Gujarat, Orissa, Uttar Pradesh and present day Pakistan originally. The last 30years prove beyond all doubt that there is no divine punishment (the innocent have continued to suffer ... whilst the terrorists like Sajjan Kumar prosper) so we should focus on uplifting on ending drugs/alcohol/illiteracy/biraderi/cancer/corruption endemic within our Qaum today to deliver man made justice in the future.
  7. UKL = I don't quite believe that Sikhi explicitly states that all religions (however random such as strands of religions like Satanism, Al Qaeda Wahhabism or Ku Klux Klan Christians) will necassarily lead to God. However, there are indeed multiple spiritual paths that if practised with sincerity will lead to God (albeit that I strongly believe that Sikhi is the most direct shortest route for humanity's wellbeing) UKL = 1>Imho my interpretation of Sikhi (guided by Giani Ditt Singh Ji's Singh Sabha ideology and the example of Sant Puran Singh Ji) is firmly that charitable efforts for those less fortunate are the truest form (puratan definition) of Naam Simran (in contrast to the recent interpretation by some that Naam Simran refers to verbal repetition only). I understand and believe that Naam Simran must be accompanied practical good deeds thereafter for it to be truly meaningful of which charitable efforts are probably the best expression. Panthpreet Singh Khalsa Ji explains the point better than I can (as he explains that simple verbal repetetion is not enough for GurSikhs) UKL = 2>It's quite self-evident that two atheist doctors serving on Medicins Sans Frontieres ships are better people than myself or Prakash Badal as two poor examples of those who state that we are Sikh. So simply believing in a certain faith or indeed simply in the One God does not make any man or woman better (or worse) per se. However, our accompanying life actions towards others do distinguish between human beings and I firmly believe that 100 random Amritdhari GurSikhs will generally live their lives in a better manner for the welfare of all (Sarbat Da Bhala) than a random sample of 100 atheists. I firmly believe all atheists and agnostics that care about their fellow (downtrodden) human beings should at least align themselves politically with the Sikh Panth for the welfare of all (Sarbat Da Bhala).
  8. UKL = Shashi Kant, Kejriwal, Bhushan are all sehajdhari Sikhs. Guru Sahib teaches us that one's ancestry is irrelavant and that our actions are what determine the achievements (good or bad) of our lives. Shashi Kant acknowledges himself as a casteless Sikh in the same lineage of great Gumukhs like Shaheed Bhai Sati Das Ji and Shaheed Bhai Mati Das Ji (the so-called terrorists of the Mughal era according to Aurangzeb). And though Kejriwal is from a Haryanvi Bania ancestry just because he wears a topi it does not make him a Brahmin. In fact, he is a sehajdhari Sikh who regularly pays obeisance at Gurdware often and more and more so-called Hindu's are realising that Sikhi is the ultimate source and platform for justice within India and globally. Mr Bhushan can hardly be called a Brahmin when he detests the Manuvadi mindset. UKL = Well stated, Khalsa Ji and I believe Manuvadi is the best label to use in order not to alienate new future members of the Sikh Panth who may (through no fault of their own) be born into one community or another similar to the likes of Gangu and General Brar. UKL = What have the "big boys" done for the world in terms of the tens of millions they have killed, raped, ensalved, exploited and discriminated? Why not join a demographically smaller movement for justice called the Sikh Panth that seeks to measure success in terms of equality, fraternity, justice, development and kindness to one's fellow human beings? UKL = Well stated Jonny Paji. Sikhi is the only open enemy of terrorism and yet others try to besmirch Sikhi with the very thing it opposes!
  9. Great to see your posts once again Paji. My top 5 would be the birth of the Khalsa Panth, Shaheedi (Jagat Qurbani) of Dhan Dhan Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj, Shaheedi (Jagat Qurbani) of Dhan Dhan Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj, Shaheedian of Bhai Mati Das Ji, Bhai Sati Das Ji and Bhai Dayala Ji and anything from the life of Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj such as the Muslim Pir who tried to kill Guru Sahib and Bhai Mardana Ji (as the first Sikh for having renounced Islam) as Guru Sahib explained that ... in stark contradiction to Christian, Muslim and Hindu philosphy (where slaves, dalits and women are oppressed) ... it is the poor, the weak and the oppressed who are in fact more "noble" and closer to God via their righteous actions.
  10. Whilst it is true Jonny Paji that innocent people of all faiths died in the Genocide of non-Muslims (and it's response) orchestrated and initiated by Jinnah and his Islamic Jihadi cohorts, certain facts have been excluded from the so-called upper caste Muslims narrative. Namely, that when the McMahon line was announced the Jatt Muslims, Rajput Muslims, Awan caste Muslims, Arain/Saini/Kamboh caste Muslims and Syed Muslims in East Punjab genuinely believed that they could butcher the Sikhs out of East Punjab as well in order to unite it with demarcated Pakistan (since the Muslim population matched our own in East Punjab). So in areas where Muslim jagirdars ruled the roost they somewhat naively thought that the Sikhs could be ethnically cleansed out of East Punjab since to them the Sikh Panth were mere sweepers etc and hence the Muslim jagirdars instigated killings against Sikhs in East Punjab in the first instance. In fact the so-called upper caste Muslims would continually taunt the Sikhs that the 1st Sikh Bhai Mardana Ji (was a Kanjar in Muslim eyes), similarly in contrast to Ranghrete Guru Ke Bete and Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj the Muslims often despised Sikhs as being the aulaadh of chure-chamar as they would term Sikhs. When the so-called upper caste Muslim Zamindars found Sikhs willing to stand up to them in East Punjab, only then did they drop their plans for annexation of East Punjab forcibly into Pakistan in 1947.
  11. UKL = I don't think acsap Paji was saying that Afghanistan is a better place for Sikhs to reside than East Punjab ... i think his comment alluded more to the fact that even the Taliban would not unleash Genocide upon their own Pathan brethren ... in the way Delhi bureaucrats co-ordinated against the Sikh Qaum. UKL = Hindustani, if you oppose terrorism of the kind inflicted by the Government of India on lakhs of innocent Sikhs (as well as hundreds of innocent Hindu's) then join the Sikh Panth. Sikhi unequivocally opposes terrorism, condemns it and will continue to fight against it. So I urge you to not let GOI propaganda discolour your perception of what Sikhi stands for. There is not a single Sikh worldwide that can openly call for the blood of a single innocent to be shed. You should understand that and join the Sikh Panth to fight against the true terrorists like Jinnah, Sajjan Kumar, Indira Gandhi and the like in order to achieve a World of peace and development.
  12. Jaspreet Bir'ay isn't the Mool Mantar the classic definition of an absolute statement? Who did Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj exactly pray to (if not Akaal Purakh)? Why do some Sikhs need to copy the Hindu's and Christians with their false beliefs regarding God appearing in human form as they claim with Jesus, Ram, Krishna etc? Imho Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj makes an absolute statement that God is beyond human births as a baby that cannot feed itself and human bodies that die. However, if you choose to believe differently then that does not lessen my respect for you as a fellow brother within a Panth where all of us (myself included) need to focus more on our fundamental Unity rather than our smaller ideological differences. ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ॥ ਜਪੁ ॥ ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥1॥ Transliteration: Ik oa(n)kaar sath naam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibha(n) gur prasaadh ॥ ॥ jap ॥ aadh sach jugaadh sach ॥ hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach ॥1॥ One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace
  13. UKL = Khalsa Ji i agree with you on what you say above. However, i think that the word RIGHTS encompasses all the issues you list above and the RIGHT to self-determination is a birthright of all human beings but particularly the Sikh Panth that has suffered and continues to suffer systematic Genocide at the hands of our opponents in Delhi. I 100% strongly believe that UPLIFTMENT of our Panth should be the main goal of what we are trying to achieve with Hyde Park June 2014. I was going to write to Sikh Council on exactly this point but given that you are from the FSO what better person to ask if there is the possiblity of Sarbat Khalsa discussing this issue and weighing it up as to the pro's and con's of the alternating terms suggested for June 2014. UKL = I hear you bir'ay. Without a doubt our loyalty should only ever be to Nishan Sahib and Sarbat Da Bhala rather than a corrupt terrorist centralised state that oppresses the innocent. The Khalsa Panth is nirvair with love for all within the beautiful spectrum of humanity so desiring freedom from oppression is something that no Sikh should ever have to apologise for. However, I believe we have much LESS to lose (and more to gain) by substituting the word RIGHTS for Freedom and terming the Rally as a "Peace" March. 1. We get more attendance ... i think we can hit 200,000 if we market it as a Remembrance+Rights Peace March. 2. Greater attendance results in greater local and international coverage. 3. We increase Unity internally by virtue of the fact only self-haters could possibly oppose or not participate in a Remembrance and Rights Peace March. 4. By using wording which would make the Rally palatable to GOI's friends such as USA, UK etc then Cameron and the majority of UK politicians that seek Sikh votes in 2015 would have no political option but to endorse the wave towards achieving Justice. 5. Instead of getting Sikh organisations labelled as terrorist outfits we can actively lobby for Overseas Developement Funds to go towards uplifting poor Sikhs. 6. Certain Biraderi Golak committees do not send any representation annually. Via the substitution of one word I think it would be hard for them to stop their own Sangat participating. This is vital if we are going to attempt Gurdwara mergers in the UK as a pre-cursor to ensuring that the Panth only has one saanjha Gurdwara per locality. http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/ 7. In the context that we are only 7 years away from the 2021 Indian Census and the RSS aim of Sikhs being a minority in the whole of East Punjab by then (not just Doaba where we are currently a minority) I strongly believe that history will judge us very harshly if we don't have the awareness to realise that combatting drugs, biraderi, illiteracy, poverty, infanticide, alcohol + health indicators (cancer/fertility) as vital foundation blocks without which no house of shelter free from GOI terrorism can stand. 8. Those such as Namdhari's, Nirankari's, Radha Soami's, Dera Ballan, Hindu Mandirs and non-Sikhs etc would have no excuse not to engage and support the mainstream Sikh community in our quest for justice and equality for all. Via greater engagement with the said communities we can build bridges as increased parchaar is the best way to turn our erstwhile enemies into future loyal members of the Panth rather than the Congress sycophants many of the leaders of the same currently are. 9. If we can triple attendance out of nowhere in June 2014 on the basis of a Remembrance and "Rights" (Peace) March ... that would give us scope to start claiming it as an "anti-Genocide" march from 2015 onwards which could bring even greater numbers of mainstream UK population participation and provide even greater scope for parchaar and fundraising for uplilftment of our Panth's poorest and most suffering sections and thereafter towards Sarbat Da Bhala. 10. We have to definitely recognise that USA, Russia, UK and France all want a united India as a counterweight to China and export market. China itself illegally annexed the independent nation of Tibet and recognises that Sikhs as a 1.8% minority within India are not worth assisting if a 1.3 billion population export market is jeopardised as a result. Delhi itself realises it cannot relinquish terrorist control of East Punjab so long as Pakistan remains a united nation in its current form. Therefore, given that our Qaum is considerably worse off than we were in 1984 on all the main indices we need to take a seriously different approach rather than simply chanting slogans (which I believe will give the Indian media the chance to paint us as terrorists and actively make things worse on the ground for our brothers and sisters in Punjab). The biggest proof I can give in support of why we urgently need to take a different approach and focus on June 2014 being all about combatting drugs, illiteracy, female infantcide and biraderi is that in this millenium all those issues have got worse year after year. So whilst we think that increased attendance at rallies for Khalistan this millenium have moved us forward, the reality on the ground in Punjab is that every indicator is getting worse. The fact that we Sikhs are a minority in Doaba (where a plebiscite for independence would be roundly voted down) should be a wake up call that we need to get the basics right ... and that we shouldn't run before we can walk in the context that in the years after 1984 there was almost 100% unity within the Qaum and the Kharku Lehar had full support prior to Black Cats and Beanta killing so many innocents. Now we see bakhre bakhre Gurdware. GOI in 1984 was 100 times stronger than the Panth in terms of economic and military resources. GOI is immeasurably stronger today compared to what it was back 30 years. We are immeasurably weaker in our spiritual adherence to Sikhi nowadays and hence talk of Khalistan and freedom is more of a distraction taking our eyes off the ball of the sad reality in front of us that needs to be addressed first. In simple terms, once we have 99% literacy, 99% not partaking in drugs or alcohol, 100% saanjhe Gurdware and Qaum, an equal male/female ratio and poverty eliminated ... self-rule will be a formality as each and every man, woman and child would be willing to give their life to oppose (GOI) terrorism. Obviously, I don't have all the answers bir'ay but this is a subject that Sarbat Khalsa, Sikh Council UK and FSO all need to discuss and decide how we use June 2014 to push the Panth forward short term (and thereby faster towards ultimate freedom from tyranny). But Jashb bir'ay it's good that for once I don't actually 100% agree with you (as usual) as only by discussing idea's that we can push forwardly unitedly thereafter! VJKK VJKF
  14. UKL = Agreed Khalsa Ji. There is no point of contention between us on the above. However, the word "RIGHTS" can equally cover everything upon which Freedom is sought and I strongly believe that the simple replacement of one word could potentially triple the attendance figures in June 2014. I was going to write to Sikh Council about this however, since you are from the FSO yourself it was better and easier to put my humble suggestion to the source. I would be very grateful if you can respond with more clarification on why and if there is possibility that Sarbat Khalsa/FSO/Sikh Council can at least discuss how we frame June 2014 to get the most exposure locally and internationally as well as the most ongoing benefits for the upliftment of the Panth. UKL = Absolutely bir'ay ... Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh ... says its all. UKL = However, 29 years after 1984 ... Delhi's position is far, far stronger ... and our position is commensurately weaker (with the exception of a stronger media voice in the recent last few years). I don't think there are any realistic pretensions of an armed struggle re-igniting any time soon whilst the Prime Minister of India, The Head of the Indian Army and the Chief UN representatives of India are all currently "visible" Kesdhari Sikhs. Therefore, why not let us prioritise the defeat of alcohol, drugs, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy and poverty for the short term at least. There is also an argument that if we channel the resources currently employed into advocation of Khalistan into seva and parchar for poor and oppressed people in India, Asia and Africa there may come a day whereby the whole of India (if not the whole world) could be governed justly via Khalsa Raj (which is the only form of rule that can deliver justice to all with Sarbat Da Bhala as its guiding motto). UKL = 100% agree with you on the above. However, my point to you is that if we both agree on the birthright of all human beings to self-determination (particularly a nation which has at least 30million population strength) then how do we go about best utilising June 2014 Hyde Park rally to the benefit of the Panth. Firstly, i think we need greater attendance and a broader spectrum of attendance to garner the most local, international and Indian media coverage. By terming June 2014 as a Remembrance + Rights Peace March I think we can potentially get three times the attendance (as all those Sikhs uncomfortable with the notion of self-rule and freedom from central government terrorism would have no excuse on why not to attend). Furthermore, certain biraderi golak committees would likely participate in order to further the cause of Unity.Multi-faith groups including UK Hindu's would have pressure on them to show support for an end to the ongoing injustices against Sikhs as well as a recognition that we were the 100% innocent victims of Delhi's terrorism. UKL = The other thing is this bir'ay is that on all indices (except self-controlled Sikh media) we are worse off today than we were in 1983. The one that personally angers me the most is the biaderi golak committee wale. With Unity it makes winning a war difficult if not impossible. So rather than trying to fly to Mars straight away i think we should short term strive to reach the Moon again in terms of killing off infanticide, illiteracy, poverty, biraderi and drugs/alcohol. I believe the whole emphasis of June 2014 must be on raising the maximum funds possible so that no village in Punjab is left behind. Naaray in isolation get us nowhere. We have to do co-ordinated action and raise money to make a difference. Because if we are raising slogans in 2014 (without a broad spectrum of attendance) and then come the 2021 we Sikhs are less than 50% of the East Punjab population I think history will judge us harshly. So I think we need to build bridges and unity and to that end participation from groups affiliated to Namdhari's, Nirankari Radha Soami's, Dera Ballan and even Hindu Mandirs would be no bad thing if the attendance numbers are thereby boosted, bridges are built and the end result is that more funds are raised to combat the ongoing forms of the silent Genocide against us (in which yet again wrecthed so-called Sikhs play an active part). In short bir'ay I am saying that we have everything to gain by being politically palatable for Cameron and Obama and Indian media in terming the rally as a Remembrance+Rights Peace March. By so doing it won't stop the right to "self-determination".
  15. UKL = Amandeep how can factually correct descriptions be termed offensive in the context of if someone wears a topi they are thus a topiwala (as is the case with proud Parsi surnames), dhoti was and is a beloved dress form for many corrupt politicians so what exactly is wrong about describing such wretched politicians as dhotiwale? Similarly, if corrupt politicians worship the cow as their Mother (whilst organising the Genocide of Sikhs at the same time) how can it possibly be offensive to accurately describe cow worshippers as Gau Mata pujanwale? UKL = Agreed that Dayanand despised traditional Hinduism and that theorertically Arya Samaji's do not accept themselves as Hindu UKL = However, coming to your statement about the so-called major civilisations. I say to you outright that the Muslim, Christians and Hindu civilisations are three of the the biggest cancers this World has ever seen! So what if the Christians, Muslims and Hindu's are the biggest populations ... as those populations were built off the back of the murder, slavery, rape, expolitation and discrimination. Granted that the Arabs and Christians are the most evil so-called civilisations of all but the so-called Hindu civilisation which sanctified discrimination in much the same way the Bible and Quran via Manu Smriti is something which has nothing to be proud of in its millenia of oppressing darker skinned adivasi inhabitants of India. UKL = Babar the Mughal dog that ruled India and launched the Mughal dynasty in India. But you know who we Sikhs respect more? Bhai Lalo Ji. A simple honest God fearing man is worth more in our eyes than any royal scum. Guru Sahib teaches us that slaves and the poorest of the poor and the oppressed are worthy of more respect than the biggest billionaires or royalty. We don't give a damn about what civilisation or samaj deems to be the highest. Look into the background of the bravest of the brave whom we Sikhs respect ... Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji ... Bhai Sangat Singh Ji ... our Panj Pyaaray from south India, from Gujarat, from Orissa etc, etc and you will see that pure Sikhi turns on it head old society/civilisation lies about what is high or noble. UKL = I agree with you that long term it looks like that India or what remains of India will probably be forced to join a one world government in which Hindi is slowly phased out much the same way that Punjabi has been eradicated in Pakistan and Haryana, Himachal etc but is something to be so happy about given that it will be likely corporate players pulling the strings of such a one world government. I agree with that smaller communities which do not have a critical mass of demographic strength are likely to be trampled on in human rights term as we have seen with the Genocide of the Sikhs launched by Indira Gandhi and furthered by her minions. However, no matter what any bigger power may do to the Sikh Qaum we won't be defeated, we won't bow down and we will keep fighting until there is total equality for all mankind globally (Sarbat Da Bhala). UKL = I agree with you on the above. UKL = I personally don't believe in the satyagraha tactics when dealing with evil counterparties but like you I am totally humbled by Bhai Gurbaksh Singh Khalsa Ji and his devotion, sincerity and level of self-sacrifice. However, you should be aware that Sikhi continually stresses upon peaceful means with forceful self-defence only a final option when innocent human lives are being murdered by Oppressors such as the Mughals, the British Empire or indeed the Nehru-Gandhi Empire. UKL = Let me ask you a question Amandeep ... what do you see in Sikhi (not Sikhs) that is wrong and to the detriment of humankind and global justice, welfare, health and education? If there is nothing wrong that you can see with the philosophy of the Guru's, then why not ignore all the pathetic lies hype from the so-called big players, big houses, big civilisations who have murdered, enslaved and raped hundreds of millions of innocents and join the Sikh Panth (in contrast) to fight for the betterment of all? No one is asking you to keep your hair if that's what you are frightened of! But we need every man and woman on the planet that cares about global justice to join the Sikh Panth so that what Sant Puran Singh Ji achieved with Pingalwara can be replicated on a global scale to create a world free from hunger, poverty, disease, oppression and discrimination ... ie "Begumpura". UKL = Mr AJ111 i put this to you as well, as I often see you putting a contrarian view to Sikhs.
  16. Bole So Nihaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal
  17. Very true Paji regarding Majithia connection. We need to put the drug pushers and suppliers and alcohol distributors out of business in Punjab via direct physical force. If vigilante type action by local jatha's can be put into action against those that profit from our Qaum's misery and against abortion clinics our enemies will soon realise it's not commercially viable for them to continue. Related to your point Paji, one worry I have is the 2014 Indian General Election: We all know that Badals are de facto an enemy of the Panth. But they are a lesser enemy than Congress. Whilst I would ordinarily advocate throwing in our weight with the Aam Aadmi Party (given their recent success in Delhi) there is a case that if Badal Dal are part of the ruling coalition with Modi in 2014 ... they "may" just be able to wipe out a significant percentage of Punjab state's debts, which could prove highly beneficial to the state both short term and long term. So whilst I agree with you Paji that Badals (and Majithia) are a plague upon Punjab I think care needs to be taken by Sikhs in Punjab in 2014 that the anti-Congress vote is not split as too much anti-Badal rhetoric in May 2014 could assist Congress. There may be a case for Sikhs to support Badal Dal when electing MP's (if they can show some Panthic credentials) to send to the centre ... but supporting clean politicians on an Aam Aadmi party ticket at local state and MLA level. I don't have the answers myself but Panthic scholars need to weigh up where our interests lie politically and how best we can extract the best deal for the Panth overall. Congress and Badal Dal both trying to get Jatts included in the Backward Caste list is yet another sign that both parties are enemies of the Panth in real terms. Worrying that Sant Samaj haven't counselled Badal that caste reservation in a Sikh majority state is tantamount to trying to kill Sikhi. But I don't suppose Sant Samaj really care as they have done nothing to prevent bakhre bakhre Gurdware and haven't initiated any practical steps against matrimonial level apartheid whereas when it comes to matters of discussing homosexuality or calendars or who wrote SG or BN they always find time for intellectual conferences.
  18. UKL = I always respect your points big time Jashb Paji and I hear you on why you feel as you do. However, I genuinely believe we can realistically get 200,000 Sikhs+others there in June 2014 if we don't declare openly what 1984 consequentially initiated and merits. No people can be forced to lived subject to a terrorist central givernment against their free will. Furthermore, though we can openly declare naaray here in the UK they don't do our brothers and sisters back home any favours. I genuinely believe that. There's a reason why SS Mann's party garner hardly any votes. I strongly believe the open naaray are divisive internally within the Panth and also alienate potential non-Sikh allies. I strongly believe that our bureaucratic enemies are strengthened in their anti-Sikh agenda's by each slogan for Khalistan in the Diaspora. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that a terrorist central government forfeited the moral right to decide or determine our affairs in 1984 and with the Genocide that followed in subsequent years. However, I think it's politically naive for us to make proclamations for freedom when we have not tackled or laid the foundation blocks of eradicating drugs, alcohol, biraderi apartheid, illiteracy, poverty and female infanticide. The defeat of the Tamil Tigers recently shows the USA, UK, France, Russia (four of the security council members) have no appetite to support legitimate movements for self-rule. China itself illegally annexed the independent nation of Tibet and realises that India as a behemoth of 1.3 billion will be hard to dismember given that the West needs India united as a counterweight to China and will brazenly support Delhi in oppressing minorities and peoples that ask for equal rights. UKL = Bir'ay when the British had their Indian Empire there were no more than a 100,000 goray that controlled the subcontinent of hundreds of millions of "Indians". The minute we have 99% literacy, no internal socio-economic or tribal discrimination, 99% of the Panth drugs and alcohol free and an economic climate where no Sikh children are going hungry at night, then no power on this planet can rule us unjustly when we legtimately desire Khalsa Raj. That's the bottom line. If everyone is willing to die and we have no traitors like 1847 or 1984 then no power can rule us. China and India and USA combined cannot stop us as a people in Malwa and Majha where we are a majority (so long as we have Ekta and the foundations in place). UKL = I think Paji the question is whether the perception of the organisers (superficially) turning their backs on the legitimate desire for freedom is more important than getting our Panth's youth off drugs+alcohol, getting our Qaum 100% literate, ending biraderi apartheid, ending poverty and female infanticide? As we need to focus on right now as the foundation blocks as a pre-cursor to potentially to achieving an end to rule by terrorists from Dehli. UKL = Paji as a 4year old I was present with in the marches against Congress Terrorism and Genocide as far back as 1984. Now if we look at where we are 29 years of naaray later look at where we are on all indices. Bakhre Bakhre Gurdware, naujawaan nashe karde te sharaab har saal loka ne zyaadha peeni, dhiyan nu loki marde, te gareebah kole paisa no hove aj kal dudh kreedhan nu ... how can we possibly get freedom from well organised bureaucratic terrorists in the short term that rule+operate a terrorist central state with 100 times our military+economic resources? Imho clearly it's a long term thing and we should focus on combatting the silent ongoing Genocide of our Qaum (rather than naaray which in practical terms have achieved nothing positive for our Qaum in this millenium).
  19. Absolutely Paji but we have to work out how best to appeal to, engage with and utilise the the sehajdhari 95% majority for Panthic upliftment. The fact that all these sehajdhari singers supported Bhai Sahib needs to be utilised by engaging with the said artists and for starters the said artists agreeing not to promote alcohol, not to promote caste, not to promote activities in direct contradiction of Gurmat rather than trying to expect too much too soon from them. Ask yourself this, how many percent of Punjabi Brahmins do you realistically think will come to Sikhi if we insist upon kes for them as a pre-cursor to joining the Panth? Let's grow the Panth's overall demographic strength first and work in a united direction first and we will automatically get to a greater number of Amritdhari GurSikhs consequentially.
  20. Khalsa Ji it may be worth your while to do a Census postcode (or ward) search to give you an indication of the demographic strength of Sikhs in a particular locality where you and your family might consider living in and other areas (such as Chalvey) worth avoiding. http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/
  21. UKL = Jagtar Singh Khalsa Ji respect as always for providing the information to Sangat. UKL = In anticipation of the 30th anniversary one point I wanted to humbly suggest to yourself is that perhaps we can increase the attendance in June 2014 and gain greater media coverage both locally and internationally by terming it the Rememberance+Rights Peace March as opposed to Rememberance+Freedom Rally as at a stroke all those who feel uncomfortable articulating Khalistan (in a climate where USA and UK governments actively support Delhi) would thus have no reason not to participate in the human rights demand of Justice for Sikhs. By terming it a Rememberance+Rights Peace March we might even be able to drag in non-Sikh Punjabi's to bolster the number of attendeees and thereby use the occasion for increased parchaar to non-Sikhs. UKL = Last but not least, I strongly believe that the whole emphasis of what we need to achieve in June 2014 is to raise the maximum funds and awareness and village level volunteer jatha's for our respective ancestral Pinds to tackle drugs, alcohol, female infanticide, biraderi apartheid and Panthic illiteracy, poverty and cancer rates. If we can get biraderi controlled golak lootere to publicly pledge for the merger of biraderi apartheid Gurdware then June 2014 is the time and the target to achieve it ... particularly bearing in mind that in the 2021 census we are staring down the barrel of Sikhs potentially being less than 50% of the population in Punjab if we don't unite immediately. If we can get the foundations in place, freedom will inevitably follow. But naaray alone have never achieved nothing as seen by all in the last 29years.
  22. UKL = You're absolutely correct in what you say above Paji. The thing we need to bear in mind is that 30 years ago there were 500 million more so-called Hindu's than Sikhs. Now there are 1,000 million more so-called Hindu's than there are Sikhs. As people have been whole scale conned into believing that their identity is so-called Hindu. So we need to be very specific about who our enemies are = Central Government, Dehli bureaucrats, RSS etc. We simply cannot label our opponents "Hindu" (100 crore people) or even Brahmin (5 crores) as you know better than most that every time we blanket label our opponents as Hindu or Brahmin we alienate lakhs of people who are spiritually ripe for entry into the Sikh Panth. For example, I know of a few Amritdhari Gursikhs from a similar background to your own and we need to encourage more good people like yourself by educating more sehajdhari's that they are not Hindu. So if 10 lakh Punjabi Brahmins attend Gurdware we need to correctly classify them as Sikhs in Punjab (albeit sehajdhari) in order to remove the innocent so-called Hindu's from the political base of our RSS-influenced opponents. Also loaded terms like "Kes Kattal" do us no favours in gaining greater population strength for the Sikh Panth and I say that from the perspective of an ex-sehajdhari.
  23. UKL = Paji you are absolutely right that we are on our own and that USA and UK are wholly in support of the oppression of Sikhs, so long as India can remain a united counterweight to China. The West doesn't give a damn about Tibetan independence (as Chinese destruction in Tibet has gone unhindered for commercial reasons) to any meaningful degree and neither do they care about us. However, if we lay the groundworks for an Arab Spring ... via increasing education in particularly our villages, increasing parchaar to both ethnic Punjabi's and non-Punjabi newcomers, the stamping out of drugs and alcohol sales in Punjab and an end to biraderi apartheid and female infanticide ... then without zero support from external parties, we will be ready to democratically and peacefully end all corrupt rule over us. If the public are not aware then that is the perfect cover for corruption and misrule to succeed. And educated populace is the number one weapon to defeat our enemies objectives in wiping out our Qaum.
  24. Keep it up Bir'ay. Very impressive and big respect for the effort and dedication you have put in. Though you don't accept donations (respect to you again on that) links to organisations that uplift weaker members of our Panth could be an idea.
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