Raju

& basically just another point. In Pakistan's punjab you guys have created a mess. and now you make cute sales pitch to involve sikhs in that mess. As if another party in your scrapping match will help things out. It's your karma man, you and your ancestors created that unholy mess. now deal with it yourself.

as predicted you have no answers.

there are three types of Pakistani muslim punjabis 1. Liberal muslim punjabi: A liberal muslim punjabi is one who hates all Indians, Hindus and all non-muslims. 2. Hardline muslim punjabi: A hardline muslim punjabi is one who hates all Shias, Ahmadiya. 3. Extremist muslim punjabi: An extremist muslim punjabi is one who hates anyone who is smarter than he is.

Pashtuns are settling in large numbers in Karachi, because they are being discouraged from settling in Muslim Punjab. Pashtuns are not being allowed to settle in Lahore in large numbers. So they are settling in HIndko-speaking areas of Punjab, which is bordering to KP. not any further. Whatever a Muslim Punjabi may say or claim, Pashtuns are at war with muslim pakistani punjabis. Pashtuns are mostly Sunni except for an odd tribe or 2. Pakistani muslim punjabis have lots of Shia, Ahmadiya & minority living amidst them. muslim Pakistani Punjabis are afraid of Pashtuns and their intentions whatever they may say to contrary. muslim Pakistani Punjab has always been invaded by the Pashtuns and not vice versa. Only exception was during rule of Ranjit Singh. muslim Pakistani Punjab is wary of giving more space in Lahore and Islamabad to Pashtuns. They gave once and result was Lal Masjid. Pashtuns do not accept Durand Line between Pakistan and Afghanistan. They claim KP as Afghan province. There are no hospitals, industries or any jobs in Khyber Pakthun and as a result they will keep flooding into muslim punjab whenever they can. there makes for a constant state of war in muslim Pakistan in future. Pakistani army only serves interests of muslim punjabi pakistanis and is thus viewed with suspiscion by Pashtuns and everybody else. Pakistani army recruits 90% from muslim punjabis who have never participated in a winning war. So all their anger is taken out on non-Punjabis in Pakistan. Last noted, before Operation Zarb-e-Azb main industries in Miranshah and Mir Ali in KP were manufacturing belt bombs and suicide vests and IED trucks. Other 'industry' worth note was sale of meat and butchering. Both animals and human. Donkey meat is the most popular meat in muslim Punjab because all other meat is always in short suppy and donkey meat is sold as mutton, beef etc.

Considering the state of tools industries and industrial development in Pakistan, it is going to be very difficult to build nukes that have consistent quality and then it is also a question of survivability after the first nuke has been launched. think it through, you are just 90 million. on opposite side is 1.3 billion + some 100 million in Afghanistan. who will win ? even with a good margin of error and propbability of missing everything. It would still mean end of Pakistan Punjab. It is not a large area of land to target. then after launching the first nuclear device, think like nothing else will be allowed to even lift off from this territory of muslim Punjab. you are living on borrowed time, and making big comments like muslim pakistan is future of punjabi ha. first try to live without being bumped off by some stray bullet. then after you live long enough, and your country survives then it can be a debate. no money in pocket. no industry to subsist upon. no security worth it's name. no dignity for women. no value for life if this is the future, then it is a very bleak future.

Let me tell you what I think is future of muslim punjabis in pakistan. Either they shape up and remove religious extremism .... which is not easy to do, because if it was easy it would have been done already. They will have a war with every other section in Pakistan. Like Baluchis vs Punjabi, Sindhi vs Punjabi, Mohajir vs Punjabi, Pashtun vs Punjabi. Again this will not harm the Punjabis in Pakistan to a life-threatening extent. Punjabis of Pakistan will still carry on business as usual. But if their terrorism against foreign countries continues, which will continue because they have no option and they are ruled by military. Muslim Pakistan Punjab will be taken out. And so will 1/3rd of it's population. 90 million people will not hold 1.5 billion people to ransom. Take a wrong step and you will be nuked out of your wits. Multiple times. Every living creature, Goat, Buffalo in Punjab will be finished. What you do back is a cost that we are willing to bear. But will not let you escape. Escape routes are being closed one-by-one and once every door is closed it's time for Armageddon. So you as a nation are living on borrowed time. Not even trees will be spared.

First part of that article First Person Second Draft: Since 1984 Shekhar Gupta | June 5, 2014 1:56 am http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/first-person-second-draft-since-1984/99/

Here is Shekhar Gupta's version, take it as a critic of the Sant ji or a neutral's version of events in 84 http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/first-person-second-draft-once-upon-a-bloody-time/99/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiQlfQw111o

Also there was a logistics issue in going from South (Indus) to North (into Afghanistan). Using a big army to invade afghanistan was impractical because Afghanistan was a barren wasteland that could at best support a band of brigands but there was nothing for the army to feed on once it reached it's destination in Afghanistan. Say an expedition was launched from Attock to Mazar-e-Sharif or Panjshir Valley or Badakshan, they could loot all the food and resources from the locals but even that wouldn't be enough to make their way back until they dotted the entire route with forts (which were well-stocked to supply rations) and this was a slow process. And then that too to what end, there was nothing of consequence in Central Asia or Northern Afghanistan to attract such efforts from an Army. But it was not the case if they were coming southwards where the fertile plains of the Indus would give food, resources, wealth and all possible attractions to all manner of adventurers, brigands, dacoits from Central & Southern Afghanistan. It was enough to motivate a large army and any loot along the way was enough to sustain them till their destination.

a few facts: 1. Pathans are the majority on the southern side of Afghanistan bordering Pakistan. i.e. Kandahar, Jalalabad, upto Ghazni. The ones on the western side of Afghanistan (Herat) are the Tajiks and the northern part of Afghanistan i.e. Panjshir valley and Mazar-e-Sharif are Tajik and Uzbek dominated. So almost no Pathans are found here. 2. Pathans used to say khamosh bash Haria Raghle, which is pushto and not tajik or uzbek. 3. Pathans have a bit of Seljuk turk in them by way of the Ghilzai tribe but the Durrani, Yusufzai & Ahmedzai are basically of similar ethnic stock as the Rajputs. 4. Afghanistan was mainly known for it's southern cities in ancient times, Kabul was just a stop over from Central Asia Silk route. And Pashtuns dominated Southern Afghanistan & it was them who were basically referred to as Afghans in medieval times. The present day Afghanistan which encompasses Herat, Mazar-e-Sharif, Panjshir etc is a modern British construct and has little to do with the ancient idea of Afghanistan. 5. Kandahar (Qandahar) whose Prince/King was Shakuni and whose sister was 'Gandhari' (Qandahari) was the wife of the blind prince Dhritarashtra and mother of the Kauravas of Mahabharata fame. So southern Afghanistan since time immemorial has always been somehow associated with the Indic narrative. Northern parts were too bare, unfertile and unproductive to be of any consequence. Just some oasis like the Panjshir valley existed which supported then negligible populations.

Your question has been aswered to the best of my ability.

@JSinghnz. The Namdharis, Satnami, Udasis were always perceived to be pro-hindu and thus British sought to isolate that strain of thought in their interest. It makes more sense seeing the Namdhari babajee in front of the cannon. The British had a vested interest in seeing to it that there was no ideological strain amongst any group prevalent at that time which could turn into a larger rebellion. Creation of strong minorities and pitting them against the majority has been an old British and anglo-saxon policy. Case in point is Sri Lanka where tamils were numerically strengthened by importing tamil labour from Indian mainland and giving them an english education. Those tamils who were ever greatful to the British always worked against the majority Sinhala community and in favor of British interests. A recent case is what is Kosovo where the bosnian/albanian muslim community in Kosovo was encouraged and armed against a numerically larger Serb majority. Later on Serb areas were bombed out by NATO warplanes with the intention of establishing the peace.

Yes, the differences with Hindus used to be philosophical & ideological and against the practice of Brahmanism and Brahmanical rituals. But post Singh Sabha movement, these differences crystallized and turned Sikhs against Hindus as a people. The differences from hereon where not just idelogical, but against Hindu as a people. The second Singh Sabha at Lahore it seems was instituted to encourage orthodoxy amongst Sikhs and to differentiate them clearly from the Hindu population.

Could you elaborate. from what I read, a book by Professor HS Oberoi, "The construction of religious boundaries", which elaborates the creation and rise of the Singh Sabha movement and how a divide was thus created between Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab. According to the author it was part of british divide and rule strategy. During British times many sikhs used to be very casual or careless about their attire and appeared dishevelled at recruiting camps but the British officers who used to recruit for the army used to scold potential recruits saying, "where is your turban" etc.

Wasn't the Singh Sabha movement started by the British to split the Sikhs ideologically from the Indian mainland.

His business .. lol .. his facebook page shows behind his desk a big Airtel DTH ad/poster. So without doubt he is a Airtel DTH franchisee or dealer for the area.

Will come to your points later. But regarding the public relations void, just look at the LTTE and their activists in the west and how they have created so much pressure upon Sri Lanka just through media and social activism. It is just their military wing that has been eliminated, but their media cell and their pressure groups in the west are still as strong as ever. Sikhs need to create a proper support structure within India and outside before they go ballistic at Govt of India, who gets away even with a totally ridiculous police policies in the state and baiting Sikhs with some loony unhinged shiv sena types. A lot of preparatory field-work has to be done before launching a full-fledged movement. If you look at the Sikhs during Ranjit Singh era, they were also superior strategists than their contemprories during that era and thus their success. There has to be a certain evolution of strategy in order to succeed, and the strategy that we adopt changes with the era and time we live in though the basic objectives remain. Seeing the repeatition of the old tactics used by the Govt of Punjab to control Sikh unrest underlines a certain contempt with which they are treating the entire issue of Sikh disenfranchisement, which shows like nothing else that Sikhs haven't evolved in their strategy, they have stopped growing, and those opportunists who stand by the wayside can now even smell it. It's said that it has come to this, because after Ranjit Singh, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, and Nalwa followed by the British, there isn't a visionary who can lead the Sikhs into a position where they have the upper hand in any bargain. Sikhs do not need those with a suicide mentality, they need someone who can help the community into a position of strength given the circumstances.

More important question is where are the Sikh PROs (Public Relations Officers). Where are the savvy Sikhs who can interact with the media and create a positive impression. Why are not Sikhs and Sikh groups seen to be coordinating with other minority communities in India. Where are the Sikh representatives visiting other minority groups and churches and mosques highlighting their plight and the true situation in Punjab. Why are Sikhs unable to cultivate foreign media into highlighting their plight. Where is the Sikh media cell which can coordinate media strategy ? Why are not more Sikhs being trained to take up jobs in media especially in the west and not only take up jobs for jobs sake but also with a view to endorse the Sikh narrative without looking openly biased. Youth have to be trained en masse for this and there has to be a certain strategy so as to not make these young guys look slanted/biased. What this means is that in absence of a comprehensive plan all that there is in name of a political support structure is Badal & Akali Dal. The very guys everyone hates. What a ridiculous situation is this ?

Sorry to say this .. but you are as racist as those shiv sainiks. It is this very view that exists amongst certain section of Sikh community that is leading to their present turmoil. For example, this very attitude that a certain section spouts that the real players are the gorey, and rest are bystanders is the byproduct of the century odd of gora racism that the colonials had to endure. In the fight to find justice for the sikhs, sincerely hope that you do not resort to such false crutches and straws of hope, such as gora ummrikka is the real alpha dogs and rest are zerrows.

dear P, this is a good time to bring this up .. I can recall you were badgered on this very topic a few weeks ago. Yes there is a pattern .. Yes the shiv sainik/hindus are using Indian policemen as cover to bait the Sikhs and hardly any of them is injured and they are operating from behind police cover. This shows one thing clearly that the Police have been instructed to give cover only to hindus and perhaps their promotion or continuance depends upon this. The utter spinelessness of the Sikhs who work in the police force is also illustrated, looks like they are a completely brainwashed/demoralized lot .. the shiv sainiks or whatever nameless hindu thugs they have clearly been instructed to bait the Sikhs and when the SIkh mob takes up the bait the Sikh police goes after them with batons, or the hindu havildar fires with AK-47. I think all the red/blue dastar cops aren't really sikhs, it's just part of their uniform and some have just sprouted a stubble to blend in with the uniforms. but to their credit it is the dastar wearing Sikh policemen who are trying to coax/use kidgloves in pushing back the protestors/mob. The hindus are the ones who don't have any dastars and just wear a cap are using their govt issue AK-47s and other weapons with gay abandon. To top it all the Badal's, who call themselves Sikh, have a rabid hindu as DGP of Punjab Police. What is clear from above picture is that the situation their is totally screwed and totally against the Sikhs. The only people who have to lose from waging a conventional battle with the cops are the Sikhs. What is shows to any lay bystander is that the Sikhs are not a united force like the muslims who despite their various shortcomings stand united when it comes to religion. What's clear is that there needs to be change in strategy, the current methods have almost exhausted their yield and are clearly not working any more. Again I wonder how come a Christian named Sonia Maino who rules the country by proxy, can give so much leeway to the Hindus and their puppet police force to wreck so much havoc in Punjab .. oh but then I forget .. that italian is too busy counting notes.

Jila Pramukh: Pramukh means Chief

watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MuydPdVQ_Q

tell me why are some cops in khaki turbans and some have red and black turban/toupee with a 2-day stubble ? It seemed to me that these guys are still working for the British. the fact that they are dealing with Indians hasn't sinked in. Low creatures.

It exists, but in a conducive environment.