Jai Tegang!

If you haven’t grown up in that environment in Punjab it’s hard to fathom how a Sikh could be in Congress Party. The ground reality is that Sikhs by and large are evenly split between Akalis and Congress. It starts at the village level where family rivalries and caste rivalries ensure that there will always be two opposing sides. Only the congress and akalis have offered the possibility of the vote leading to state power. If you look at the congress roster, it is full of Sardars with colourful paggs, same as the akalis. Congress offers a chance at getting into power for the influential sardar by offering both the strategic hindu vote and half the sikh vote, whereas the akali dal will mostly rely on the sikh vote, unless they have a bjp/bsp hookup.

The current top guys like Navjot Sidhu and Channi are not die-hard congressis btw. There was a furore by the Hindu Congress strongman Sunil Jakhar that both Navjot Sidhu and Channi had NOT observed/tweeted about Indira Gandhi on her death anniversary on Oct 31!

There is plenty more I can expand on the nuances of Indian/ Punjab politics, but my main message would be not to jump the gun and throw labels on people for joining any party. Whether it’s Moosewala or Sirsa, you have to look at what they can do for us and how we can manipulate these politicians to our benefit, instead of blindly throwing the gadhaar label. These politicians, like all politicians the world over, are in it by and large to quench their lust for power. It’s how we use them that defines our political acumen.

Here's the results from 2017 Punjab Elections to give you a feel for popular support:

8 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/11/15/arts/television/the-sex-lives-of-college-girls.amp.html

 

This is where our society is, sadly.

 

Why does this “actress” use “Kaur” in her name? She should at least have the decency of using her caste surname if she is going to behave like this.

What's with the depressing topics ?First the jatt bashing one that went on to record breaking lengths in heated arguments, and now this ? You need to do some introspection and find your inner peace my friend. I have a suspicion that your personal life has had serious problems with "jatts" and "kaurs". Does it relate back to you not being able to find a partner? Do you feel undeserving jatts are lapping up all the good females? 

I’m no fan of the tactics and overall methodology of this group, but at least they are doing more than me or you.

These endeavors are more for keeping the flame of hope alive. There’s no chance of any this referendum stuff working about, we all know this, as probably do the organizers. It’s more about giving the Hindu deep state an un-scratchable itch. Keep reminding them we’re still kicking around in some form. It does annoy the deep state that we haven’t collapsed and faded as they had envisioned.

Every single one of us is looking for prosperity, security, and a future. That’s why our kaum is running around all over the globe. But deep down we know our long term survival as a religious group hinges on a sovereign homeland.

Nobody will sacrifice until they have no other choice left. The religiously motivated who can overcome this are far too few to make any kind of difference. We in the west will only fight for our homeland when the west is up in flames and we are among countless other groups running around like headless chickens trying to find safety. When war engulfs the world and there is destruction all around, that will be the next opportunity to lay it all on the line and fight for our land and perhaps some more for good measure. War cleanses the egos of the mighty. Wait for it.

1 hour ago, Premi5 said:

Jatt, bhayia, ramgharia, mirasi. This movie had it all, lol.

38 minutes ago, proactive said:

This is quite interesting. While the Gurus taught us that our background was of less importance than what our actions and beliefs are, they never taught that we should actively hate our background. If people like Daily want to eradicate caste based discrimination then they need to understand what is caste and what is clan. It is easy for non-Jats to relegate their background and forget or even hate their own background because that background was always steeped in caste. The vast majority of non-Jats' ancestors suffered from caste based discrimination (apart from those Sikhs from the Khatri background) so they naturally want to forget their background and it is easy for them to do so.

But for Jats, it's different, our background is a part of our everyday life especially in rural Punjab. In any Punjabi village the Jats are all be related to each other because they are all descendants of a common ancestor or family group that founded the village many hundreds of years ago.  This is what is called patti in the village, a village could have two or three pattis. The next few villages around any particular village will also have been branches of the same family group. So if you live in the village your ancestral line is all around you and because your ancestors were never oppressed by the caste society and because they never wanted to be a part of the Manuvadi system then there is no great need to look down on your ancestors. Apart from a few villages who were founded by the same family group, you will also have a place which could be many miles away called your Jathera which is the original place from where your known ancestor came from.

The Gills will have their own Jathera, the Dhillons will have their own etc. Each Jat clan will have their own Jathera. So just as in many societies the knowledge of who your ancestors were is important and is passed down through the generations this is also what is passed down in each Punjab village. I doubt Daily could look back to more than 3-4 generations of his family, but because of the structure of the Jat village, I could possibly go back 10-15 generations quite easily. My own village, a village of Dhillon Jats was founded over 400 years ago, we know that the founding family of this village came from a village about 5 kms away to found this village. So as well as knowing that all the Jats in the village who are Dhillons are all descendants of a common ancestor of mine, I know that in the village 5 kms away we can find the descendants of our common ancestor's ancestors! So this shows how ingrained the clan and family descent is in Jats. What other person could go back to their village and know that 50-60% of a village of some 3000 people are all related to him and then the surrounding villages of similar numbers are also related to him?  And then if you want to even go back further, your very clan name links you to relatives who might live hundreds of miles away but who also have the same clan name. Dhillons are found in our Punjab,  West Punjab, Haryana, Western UP and some parts of Rajasthan and Madhya Pardesh. All these Dhillon are the descendants of either one common ancestor or a family group going back over a thousand if not more years. 

All the above which might be boring for non-Jats but which forms a large part of what the tribal identity of a Jat is. You can either negate all this and want Jats to disregard their clan identity because you believe that it is a caste and just the fact that he has an interest in his clan is tantamount to him being a casteist or you can understand what the attachment of a Jat is to his clan and accept that as long as his clan or tribe does not discriminate against any of Sikh then this does not make his a casteist. 

On a last point, I very much doubt that Daily who seem to be an expert on Jats known even 10% of what I wrote above, so in many way we can put his rants into that context. 

 

 

This is very interesting stuff! Do you think the different castes that made up a village were ancestrally from the same group of people?? Over time the division of labour led to solidified classes? 

5 hours ago, Punjabiwolves said:

Now based on the Map Khalistan will be a Hindu Majority state and that too by a long way. it it will have the biggest Hindu  population outside of India not only that but it will also contain the Holiest city for Hindus (Haridwar ) come on now this map no sense . Will you guys be ok with Hindu majority Khalistan? will you guys be OK with Khalistan being a very important country for Hindus when in-fact you want to get away form this Hinduism and Hindu's 

How can the UN take a referendum seriously when the majority of this proposed Khalistan state citizens(Hindus in Punjab , Haryayna UP etc) cant vote on it when a Sikh in the UK who has never stepped foot in India can vote on it. 

That is a delusional and absurd map made by a group as equally delusional.

Nonetheless, at the heart of the Sikh desire for their own state is not some malevolent intentions for their fellow Hindu neighbours, it is a wish for the preservation of their way of life going into the future within the safety of a sovereign state. We don’t hate India or Hindus. We just want our remaining small piece of land. Kind of like how Pandavs were settling for a few villages while forfeiting their kingdom to their Kaurav cousins.

Even within any potential Sikh state there is no ill intention against our fellow Punjabi Hindu brothers. In any case, how can 1.5% Sikhs cause any real harm to Hindus or India? It’s more to do with preserving our existence. All we want is some form of sovereignty within our 1.5% land for our 1.5% kaum. Is it really asking for too much?

Perhaps more of you guys should consider Canada or US. These places won't have an Islamic whip-hand, that's for sure. UK and  western Europe are heading towards a disastrous muslim population surge in the next generation, both with migrants and high birth rates.  

I've seen a steady trickle of UK-raised apnay move out here in BC ever since I can remember. 

5 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

Why are you worried about what western Sikhs will do when the "whip-hand becomes Islamic in the next few decades"?

 

In a few decades Sikhs will be almost extinct, and the cause will have nothing to do with Islam or the presence of Muslims anywhere.

 

You people waste so much energy obsessing over things that really do not matter in the big picture.

 

Instead of worrying about Muslims, you should worry about the internal genocide that is going on WITHIN the Sikh community. THAT is the biggest issue that Sikhs face. It is an existential threat.

We might be at the beginning of a  bottleneck period where social structures that kept people in the faith will collapse to the point of no return, who knows. Just have to keep trekking along and see. People can instinctively see where the benefit and the easy path lies, and if nothing is stopping them, they will follow it. It may mean their lineage melts into a broader culture, but people could care less these days. It's just the point of where humanity is. As long as we have some beej-matra khalsa, we should be okay going into the future. Eventually some people will regret their decisions and  see value in the Guru's Way and return home. Others will have drifted too far out. Just have to keep faith in the Guru, brother, there's not much me or you can do. And you know, if the Guru chooses, he could send in the heavy guns to turn the tides.

2 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

If they aren't the most useless people on the planet, they are definitely up there.

 

What a shame that such an advanced religion which has the cures for what ails mankind has been wasted on such pathetic people.

What a shame that they have hijacked all of the Sikh institutions, injected the disease of tribalism into the Sikh community, and set the entire community on a path to irrelevance and extinction.

So...............you're not one of us? 

This changes everything.

Joking.

Cheer up brother. There are some good ones too.

8 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

That just seems to happen all the time. What the heck????

 We seem to lack wisdom and foresight, and prefer  quick reactionary actions and then continue dealing with the ensuing mess for the better part of a generation. 

Our lot were both fighting aganist the british and for the british with no idea of what the hell the outcome is going to be. But fight we must, lol. Same with every other hot topic that comes up. We quickly feel the need to fall into a camp and pursue it with unnecessary passion. 

^^

Thanks for posting this @dallysingh101. It's so awesome to have these original sources. I hope our people can start reading these invaluable sources and make up their own minds and not get herded around.

18 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

The old-timers pulling the strings in the background would rather die before they ever relinquish this policy. They've got it into their heads that Pakistani alignment (on the part of Sikhs) would hurt India, therefore job done. To a certain degree they are correct, but as usual our short-sightedness is unable to see the end implications of such a relationship.

We bring NOTHING to the table; we have NO leverage, NO power, NO anything. The only thing we can bargain away are potential future gains that would be snatched away from us at the negotiation stage; effectively, we'd give away something before we'd even obtained it on the basis of a promise that could easily be broken. For that reason this so-called leadership is to our detriment, not our benefit.

Our people need to really wake-up to the current geo-politics and world power structures before placing our hopes on these silly adventures. We have no allies. NONE. We have no bargaining power and nothing to offer. We are fools if we think the UN or UK government, or any other western government gives a damn for our aspirations. The sooner reality hits home, the sooner we can start on the long and hard march to freedom. We keep playing the same cards from nearly half a century back. If you aren't up to date, forget about playing even.

You know what, I just kept watching that video in utter horror hoping there is some safety custom that is going to protect that little child from the old pedo rapist. How the hell does that father keep living after willingly handing over his little girl? How is their society still functioning with such evil?

I think the challenge is that the word Khalistan has been dragged through the mud by the government mouthpiece media in India.

Say “Khalistan” and the brain registers anti-India, anti-Hindu, pro-Pakistan and pro-Muslim.  

We need to dissociate this imagery. There are plenty of other nations within South Asia that exist perfectly well and our land should be seen the same. For example, Hindus don’t hate Nepal for being an independent Hindu-majority nation right along its northern border, where it could very well fit into the Indian republic.

We need to covey to Hindu India that we don’t hate them, we don’t hate India, and wish them no harm. We want to exit independently as equal neighbours just like their other neighbours (apart from Pakistan, obviously!).

We also need to somehow convince our Punjabi Hindus that their prosperity and security will not deteriorate in an independent Punjab/Khalistan. It’s tough, but it needs to be done.

Lastly, I think it’s a big mistake to align with Pakistan, even at a superficial level.

3 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

It seems that some Sikhs are not reading up on their history. And that's a shame as this particular history is only around 80 years old.

In 1944, H S Mailk also produced a map of Panjab and outlined it as a Sikh country, to the British. Muslims were asking for Pakistan, so why couldn't the Sikhs have their own country as well. Seems a fair argument.

 

But the map Malik produced and presented to the British would have only showed a Sikh population of some 20%. The British asked him on what grounds would you claim this as a "Sikh" country? Both the other communities could outvote your community individually. Malik had no answer.

 

Lesson learnt?

The realistic approach would be increasing our percentage across western rajasthan border districts all the way through to rann of kutchh in gujrat. We MUST have a contingious demographic and geographic linkage to the sea for a viable state. Our priorities should be heavy charity based parchar in these areas combined with strengthening our numbers in Punjab.

Making these SFJ type fantasy maps is setting us up for mockery. I wonder if they know the areas they've yellowed would have a 90 million population with sikhs under 20 %.

Nice topic. I’m a fan of urbanization, so I would envision a scenario where the diaspora doesn’t head back to their villages (the ones that came from pinds). I like Ludhiana because of its centrality in Punjab (even though the air and water pollution is off the charts!). More likely the diaspora would settle the outskirts of Chandigarh in the Punjab portion (towns like Mohali and New Chandigarh) because of the cleaner air and proximity to the shivalik hills. But for my scenario I am going with Ludhiana.

Ludhiana city is 66% Hindu and 29% Sikh with a population of 1.9 million (2021 estimate). It would require all 2 million diaspora sikhs to be stuffed in there to raise our percentage to 65 %. If we were to take the higher estimate of a 3 million diaspora, and all settled in Ludhiana, our percentage would be 71%. All 3 million diaspora would raise Punjab’s Sikh percentage from 57% to 62%.

Just shows how little our raw numbers add up back home within our own state, forget about India as a whole. Our strength lies in our prosperity outside of India. Within India 2-3 million barely registers. I mean there are 25 million babies born per year in India!

But even with the minor percent rise, our economic strength would be the real game changer as @proactive pointed out. We could shift the economic power into Sikh hands within some Punjabi cities, while the rural is already in the basket.