Unbreakable

Thank you for your smart reply, however I am not asking sangat here for gurbani quotes, this is meant to be a discussion, but it seems like people don't like discussing issues or topics here.. In my initial post which started this thread, I was not asking a question if Gurbani confirms dasvand, etc. I was asking the Sangat here for their views. You represented your views, with words like "dharma", karma, etc. Infact here is your post "When I say investment, i mean that when you spend time following the dharmic practices you are investing in yourself, in improving your karma, in reducing the ties that tie down your soul from freedom. japping naam is an investment for the same reason. sitting and listening in sangat is as well. All these things that move you closer to God are a true investment"... I don't want this to turn into one of those typical ego fights. The purpose of this thread is that the Sangat comes together and educates one another, not to show off their Gurbani knowledge, etc. So, I ask again you again to read my post again and think about it..else please no smart remarks, however I can't stop you for doing that... vaheguru ji ka khalsa, vaheguru ji ki fateh

Thank you for your smart reply, however I am not asking sangat here for gurbani quotes, this is meant to be a discussion, but it seems like people don't like discussing issues or topics here.. In my initial post which started this thread, I was not asking a question if Gurbani confirms dasvand, etc. I was asking the Sangat here for their views. You represented your views, with words like "dharma", karma, etc. Infact here is your post "When I say investment, i mean that when you spend time following the dharmic practices you are investing in yourself, in improving your karma, in reducing the ties that tie down your soul from freedom. japping naam is an investment for the same reason. sitting and listening in sangat is as well. All these things that move you closer to God are a true investment"... I don't want this to turn into one of those typical ego fights. The purpose of this thread is that the Sangat comes together and educates one another, not to show off their Gurbani knowledge, etc. So, I ask again you again to read my post again and think about it..else please no smart remarks, however I can't stop you for doing that... vaheguru ji ka khalsa, vaheguru ji ki fateh

He was a talent person and a good guy. What is born must die, that is the way of the world. We all will die, the only difference is how and when we go.

Don't know what media channel you are watching. The British and Americans and their alliance of the willing are NOT FIGHTING A WAR. It is an invasion. Iraq too was invaded. Another example of how the establishment and media twist the truth. The Sikhs which were murdered, raped, looted, slaughter, etc in India, largely in Delhi and Panjab are popularily known as "84 Riots". It was not riots, it was a calculated systematic selective genocide of a particular community sponsored, supported, funded, maintained by the establishment, which includes the police, army, various religious institutions, law enforcerment officers and the legal system of the country. If we call the 1984 incident Riots, then we should rename the Holocaust, Rawanda Genocide as Riots aswell. The definition of what a Riot is as per Oxford Dictionary and other dictionaries A riot is a form of civil disorder characterized often by what is thought of as disorganized groups lashing out in a sudden and intense rash of violence against authority, property or people Oxford http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/riot Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot Merriam-Webster http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/riot What it should be Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/genocide?q=genocide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide Now before certain members have difficulities processing this, misunderstand this and believe this to be a "rant", they should be aware, from Sikh History, that we are in a state of war. We were attacked in 1984 and this attack was acknowledged as an declaration of war against the Sikh Nation in 1986, after which our Sikh Brothers and Sisters, be they Fathers, Brothers, Uncles, Husbands, Mothers, Sisters, Aunties, Wives and Friends were attacked again by the establishment. Evidence of which was found by Shaheed Bhai Sahib Bhai Jaswant Singh Khalra who was killed by the establishment. Shame on us (don't worry, Me Too) for getting sucked into the propaganda by our so called Sikh Leaders who sit at the feet of Extremist Hindu Politicians & Religious Leaders. We are fighting over issues such as Dasam Granth, Raagmala, Rehit, 5k, etc etc. Can you not see that these are non-issues which are deliberately pushed forward by these agents of evil and then in turn pushed forward by so called educated gyanis who don't know what is happening outside of panjab, let alone the world, hell they don't even know our history. Then you have Hindus who are calling Sikhs like Bhai Mati Das Brahmins. The Fools are mistaken if they believe they are our brothers. They will stab you when you least expect it. This is not an act of brotherhood, this is an act of inteference, because they know that the Sikh Leader ship are at their feet. WAKE the F**K UP However what you do is your own personal business, know this that within the next 20 to 35 years the Sikh faith in India will change radically, so much so, Sikhs themselves, just like buddhist will openly say "oh we are a part of the Snatan Dharma, we are a branch this Dharmic Tree". Hell you already have people, saying this openly now. We have nobody but ourselves to blame for this, not the Afghans, not the Mughals, not the British, not the Hindus, but US. WE are responsible for this. This is why the panth is in disarray as it has lost its Niara-pan, uniqueness. I quote, Master of Masters, King of Kings, Mahabali, Khalgidhar Siri SatGuru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj "Jab Lag Khalsa Rahe Niara, Tab Lag Tej Dioon Mein Sara, Jab Eh Gaye Bipran Ki Reet, Mein Na Karoon In Ki Parteet" SatGuru Ji gave us meek weak poor people Sardari, Soverign Rule was bestowed upon us by SatGuru Ji and we lost it. Instead of running to SatGuru Ji, we run to Deras, Babey and Sants who have opened up their own Gurdwaras (oh but no, its registered on Siri SatGuru Granth Sahib Ji), who have made Gurdwaras and Gurbani into a business. Then we take pride in working for a family which is responsible for looting the whole world, not forgetting interferring into (with the help of the Hindus establishment), Sikh affairs. Don't get me wrong, I am not a racist and against the Hindu people, it is the Evil leaders who are at the helm of the faith, just like the Evil people who are at the helm of our Gurdwaras, all Thakats, religious educational institutions, I am against them wholeheartedly. and if people here think this is just internet talk, then meet me in person, I am more vocal in person, I am not afraid of anybody or anything. I do not fear Vaheguru, because Vaheguru is not to be feared, Vaheguru is to be loved, I love Vaheguru, Vaheguru and Sri SatGuru is my source of inspiration. Now make of this what you will, I don't care. vaheguru ji ka khalsa, vaheguru ji ki fateh.

Sure, what does Gurbani have to say on this? please do prove some quotations to share with the sangat

what a waste of thread. sounds more like a script of one of Harbhajan Maans films...

There is no tangent or rant. The OP just pasted a link to a news article and the posts by various members represent their own views. I never asked you to summarise for me. please read my post again if you are misaken. I repeat, let me know the conflicting points, I'll give you my summary...simples oh and...err.. yeah LOL...is that fine? no no, maybe LMAO.. Ego. terrible isn't it.

Brother, I am just asking a question, I want to know what people here, people who actually study Gurbani, practise it think and believe. Read my post,think about it. What is Gurbanis stand point (PLEASE PLEASE don't just copy and paste Gurbani, go through it, explain your decision.) Replies like "oh because this sant said this etc" will not wash here. What I believe is irrelevant at this stage. There are alot of pakhandis who use gurbani, religious texts to emotionally black mail people, putting the fear of god into them, indirectly, just to fill their pockets. Its happening right now, has been happening and will continue to happen long after I am dead, so in those respects you can also say its pointless to talk about it. But is it really?

let me know the conflicting points, I'll give you my summary...simples

There is no guarantee that a gursevak will be any honest that a cancer charity, regardless of the fact if that person wears the same chola or not. The only thing you have is "hope" that he or she is honest. Explain this "large seva return on investment" - when did this ever become an investment? Be Objective about this, not Subjective.

VaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa, VaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh, I hope this topic raises some sort of constructive discussion here, where we can learn something. This is a issue which is very close to everyone, as it involves you giving part of something which belongs to a complete stranger with whom you have no affiliation, most of the time this "something" is Money. Most of the time, only Money is asked for, very few organisations ask for skills of an individual, etc. This is the case for all religious organisations, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Jain, Sikhi, Christianity, etc. There is some sort of divine law which requires or in some cases warrants us to give to the needy and less fortunate. I would like to discuss what Gurbani has to say about Dasvand, where this concept was mentioned, how it was born, who put it forward. Some of the ways in which we are asked to donate are - Donate your dasvand to - Donate the Gurus dasvand to - To attain Gurus happyness, donate to - If you don't donate, you will be in Karmic Debt - Sikhi will be finished if you don't donate -How do you know that your dasvand will be used honestly, if it isn't then you will be held responsible and the bad karmic action will affect you too. For example, we give money to a Baba (or organisation), but that baba (or organisation) doesn't use that money for the intended purpose. Because he didn't use it for the intended purpose, you will also be affected by his bad karmic action. Now, lets say if you make all possible enquiries into where the money will go, you still will be held responsible. In these incidents, YOU, the person donating, do not know about the hidden agenda of the baba (or organisation). So question is, HOW ARE YOU RESPONSIBLE? I first heard this from a Radha Soami in India around 7 years ago, where he was saying, if you donate your money to a poor man and he goes and drinks, then beats his wife up or kills her, YOU will be HELD responsible. When I challenged him, he just kept to his line that you will be held responsible EVEN if you don't know. After all of this, he said, So its better to donate to US as we will honestly spend your money. *the small print* So as we see, Psychological and Emotional blackmailing is used to make you feel guilty about something which "might" happen in the future. However if you give to them, then you are OK and NOTHING will happen to you. Are these ways of making you feel guilty to take your money from you???? So, what does Gurbani say, specifically on Dasvand, Charity, Karmic Debt, etc. I am not against helping the needy and less fortunate, however we must have some clarity here and not get washed away in our emotions when we hear some lines of gurbani being spoken sweetly, all designed to rob you. Please Note - Sources and references must be given. No made up stories which are designed to make your feel guilty.

What a Shame. This guy was hounded by those stupid presenters at Sangat TV (kulwant singh desi, who forgot who got him out of jail when he was arrested in India) and that so called Dr at panjab radio, he talks like he has done alot for the panth.. What a shame Sad day indeed and shame on us, who talk, but do not walk the walk

our foes call him a terrorist...what matters is what YOU think of him, not other people.....

thats interesting........I wonder what others have to say here.

so you're saying Kesri Lehar have it wrong, it should be Basanti Lehar.... why such emphasis on colours???? I am not questioning, please can some learned person here describe the reasons why we have various colours

The corrupt thieves who run the olympic committeein India don't give a <banned word filter activated> about the athletes. You want to see investment in their athletes, then look at China and USA.

everybody in the western world, where there is a developed infrastructure, is under surveillance since the 1960's. what do you think facebook is about, twitter, etc.

I disagree with you here, on some points. There will be no peoples movement, there will be no Sikh or Indian version of the CIA instigated Arab Springs, which was engineered to take out Iran, but failed miserably. So long as our Sikh Leaders have vested interest back in India, the Sangat will never have the full support it needs. Kesri Lehar is moving ahead, with over 100,000 signatures, because of the Youth, who were forced to rethink their views about India after the famous words of Bhai Sahib Bhai Balwant Singh Rajoana Ji (The real Akaal Thakat Jathedhar in my opinion). Had that video clip not been aired, we would not have seen this movement, this discussion, amongst the youth, who are looking at 1984 in a different light. Sikh Media is still being controlled by cronies who don't want to work together. Example. Gagandeep of Sikh TV murdered. Sangat TV shows full support. Sikh Channel doesn't bat an eye lid. I won't discuss the controversial issues here of certain individuals stealing somebodies idea, etc etc. These very same people are behaving not like Sikhs, but panjabi's. I had a longer post typed up, but I decided not to include it, simply because a voice in my head said..."whats the point, nobody will listen"....now imagine millions of SIkhs feeling this way. Whats the point. We are very quick to start charities though. I am thinking of starting one too, wanna donate? I understand what you mean, but its not gonna happen.

Really.....weaker singhs.....Is that why he was wearing what looks like a blue plastic hard hat ontop of his patka... Its not humiliating, its centuries of tradition (which I agree with and aplaud them for keeping), something which the Sikhs nowadays over look when it suits them, instead they follow some made up tradition preached by evil individuals who pass themselves as "sants". The Sikhs who fought in the world wars, did not fight out of choice. Over 2.5 million Indians were promised to the british by the indian establishment. Did they have a choice. Soldiers don't have choices, they have orders. We as Sikhs don't follow orders from our SatGuru, we choose which one suits us, which one is AKJ approved, which one is Santmat approved, and so on and so forth...We hear one katha and take it as Gods word...yet we never cross check it with Gurbani. We my friend have become weak. I am in the same boat.

There were reasons why they court martialed any Sikh who cut their hair. No, you might have been reading the wrong books. I don't form my opinions quotes from racist PM's When did the bulldog give that speech? When did he die? When was the Turban Helmet debate discussed in parliment? okay okay, they so loved the Sikhs for their loyalty, that they presented them with partition in 1947. The British (not the normal people) are opportunists, you are severely misguided if you think they liked the Sikhs. they were small incidents where officers did praise and respect the Sikhs for their discipline and some cases were they donned a turban too. In this case you can say, a soldiers soldier. However in the grand scheme of things, they were the ruling party and they called the shots. which made the sikhs, who needed a livelyhood to feed their families, salves in the colonial sense. Yes, They won, we lost, this is a Fact. First anglo Sikh wars, we won that, they called it a draw. Second, we were betrayed, we lost and now we are forever licking their boots by quoting them...."oh look the PM said this about us, they like us a alot, this reaffirms my faith, etc etc etc". maybe I have this all wrong..please correct me, I am open to change.

loads of spelling and grammer mistakes..lol me no englisho

I am replying to all three of your posts. I understand what you are talking about, but I feel that you are misguided. What have the SIkhs got with which "badal" will be used as a pawn in a proxy war? Nothing. Mark my words here. We will see India moving to calm the Sikhs, world wide aswell as in India, why??? Because no investor wants to invest in a country which is unstable. So as Pakistan goes ahead with giving Sikhs rights on paper, India will do the same. i.e. Anand Marriage act, etc. Justice for 84, they will release a few innocent sikhs from the jails, etc. Who the hell is talking about manpreet badal? He will go back with badal, you watch. He is the sacrificial lamb, which I think was used to see if there is any opposition to him, bjp and congress. there isn't. After simranjit singh maan dies, his party will die too. Who will suceed him??? I have studied Chanakya aswell as world Political Science, and Economics. I know what a proxy war is brother. However, after the fall of the Sikh Empire, we have been unsuccessful at waging any war, let alone a proxy war and the reason for this is because the sikhs betray each other. Hell you have it here as a small example, we don't like the views of another Sikh, we shut him or her up. Are we doing to sit down and talk in a civil manner? Of course not, its the punjabi way. Not the Sikh way. This is the very reason why it took one man who intermarried, forged alliances to create one of the most powerful empires in the world. That was not done with brotherly love. But we must learn from our past mistakes, otherwise we will repeat them again and again and again and again. Examples are infront of us. 1984, Shaheed BrahamGyani Jarnail SIngh Binderanwaley was betrayed by whom, the various Sikh leaders. He was setup. Arms were supplied to the Sikhs via pakistan, by bloody india. Even if they did cross the border, what were for BSF doing?? sleeping? India knew everything. They sent in over 100,000 soldiers, tanks helicopters, war ship on standby, to take out ONE MAN. So where is your proxy war. Hey, where were the Nihungs? They were hung up to dry by their leaders. Thats a fact which you can't deny. Do you know what a proxy was is brother? the USA supplying arms to Iran via russia and Iraq. the USA supplying the Afghans with weapons via Pakistan to fight the russians. 1984, in terms of proxy war, if you can call it that, was a complete failure and we did get crushed, HARD and FAST. Indira Ghandi had already taken assurances from USA, Russia that Pakistan & China would not interfere with them, nor would they. So there goes your proxy war out of the window, along with ISI help. The fact that General Brar is saying Pakistan would enter Panjab, was false. They had made sure that the Pakistans would be held back by russia, which was done. Now for buddhism. There is no proxy war here. The USA is using him like a rag doll to spite China, however both USA and CHINA know that Tibet will not be free. Because the Buddhist monks will not take up arms. The Dalai Lama in many buddhists views has become soft, and all he does is mingle with the rich and famous. Ok ok. Imagine if the Dalai Lama asks President Barack to talk to China to let them have Tibet, what do you think will happen. Both US and China will laugh and continue on with business. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war now, if I am wrong, please let me know. There are many reasons why the sikhs cannot even begin to dream of a proxy war. We do not even have a strong lobby group, we have no youth funding, etc. nothing. We do now have no strategy whatsoever. We do have alot of "punjabis" with alot of money, but not sikhs. why is this? because we don't like each other, based on our panjabi ancestory, tribal inclinations, MAI JATT AHH, MAI RAJPUT AHH...so long you have this type of mindset, Sikhi will not flourish in our hearts. guess what, your enemies know this. When the Sikhs are under pressure, they group together, nobody can touch them, however, when they are left to their own devices, they go back to their old ways, their pre-sikh ways and they even turn on their own brothers, let alone friends...HISTORY is witness to this. (I don't know if the mod will edit this, if he does, then I will repost, as I keep all my posts to make sure what I post, gets posted)

What milestone? What relationship was forged in blood? They won, we lost and were assimilated in their army. End of story. There was no relationship, unless you call the "Master & Slave" a relationship. Why don't you contact him directly with your suggestion? Unless he frequents this forum....just a suggestion!

That was probably whilst he was in battle, so that a blow to the head by a sword, dagger, or even an incoming arrow would be blocked. However, did Akali Phoola Singh wear an helmet?

Some comments from the readers of that news article, which are interesting... Political Correctness gone mad! If he wants to join the Scots Guards, he wears the same uniform as everyone else, his religion is a private matter, between him and his god, nothing to do with the MOD. - Michael, France, France, 2/12/2012 4:34 If he can wear a hard hat over his turban, why can he not wear the bearskin over it? Seems to me he is looking for attention & perhaps a reason to sue. If his turban is more important to him than the bearskin then he does NOT belong in the Scots Guards! - KJ, Wellington NZ, 2/12/2012 4:32 There's actually no reason why he can't wear a bearskin. The Sikh religion does NOT stipulate turbans. It stipulates long hair. For instance, athletes and sportsmen do not wear turbans when training or participating in an event. They wear either a simple handkerchief tied around the top-knot or a kind of cloth called a 'patka' tied around their head. In fact, the patka is often (usually) worn under the turban. So, all they have to do is wear the patka and the bearskin on top (over it). This insistence on a turban business is a lot of rot. - JayJay, Here and There, 2/12/2012 4:02 In Canada the same argument was presented by a member of the Sikh community for wearing a turban in stead of the traditional RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) head dress. The steadson. The challenge to the tradition was not well received by the populous but granted by the politicians . A decision interpreted as an erosion of traditional values. Said traditions hold a cohesive bond to past establishment and foundation to that what exists today. Leave well alone .... - Canuck, Ottawa, Canada, 2/12/2012 4:23 I actually don't see no "milestone" here. I don't understand why anybody, in this day and age of corruption, etc would want to join the army which is used as a power tool against smaller countries by the elite. But these are my personal opinions. Good luck to him