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isingh1699

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Posts posted by isingh1699

  1. Come on Pakistani bro u can't accuse the Quran of being the work of Christians, can you?



    The Holy Quran on Women



    "They ask you about menstruation. Say: 'It is an indisposition. Keep aloof from women during their menstrual periods and do not approach them until they are clean again; when they are clean, have intercourse with them whence God enjoined you....'" Quran 2:222, "The Cow,"



    "Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please." Quran 2:223, "The Cow,"



    "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them." Quran 4:34, "Women,"



    "A male shall inherit twice as much as a female." Quran 4:11, "Women,"



    "Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses..." Quran 2:282, "The Cow,"



    "If you fear that you cannot treat with fairness, then you may marry other women who seem good to you: two, three, or four of them. But if you fear that you cannot maintain equality among them, marry one only or any slave-girls you may own." Quran 4:3, "Women,"



    "If you are in doubt concerning those of your wives who have ceased menstruating, know that their waiting period shall be three months. The same shall apply to those [of your wives] who have not yet menstruated." Quran 65:4, "Divorce,"



    Forbidden to you are married women, except those whom you own as slaves." Quran 4:24, "Women,"

  2. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle . (Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu'), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234)"

    This is what Wafa Sultan (an ex-Muslim) had to say about Prophet Muhammad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiIENsa-lCY

  3. ame="Jonny101" post="584036" timestamp="1370727415"]Most Sikh youth in California are drug dealers???? I think you need to go out more[

    All I can smell is haumai from your comment.... I don't know when we sikhs will learn to stop self praising ourselves and putting other people down... All of you guys are thinking that I am against you or I am your enemy but I only want to guys to focus on sikhi and sikhs...

    Jonny Veerji didn't do haumai Sister. He just disagreed with your thinking most Sikh youth in Cali are drug dealers.

    Sister you are right that Sikhs should not praise ourselves if haumai happens after that.

    Nobody thinks that you are against anyone. Everyone appreciates that you have stressed that Sikhi is a true faith of peace.

    Nobody thinks of you as an enemy (just because they disagree with you). My Pakistani veer is not my enemy. He is my brother.

    True that Sikhs should focus on Sikhi first but we can't put our heads in the sand like the Jews did before the Holocaust or like in 1947 Pakistan when so many hundreds of thousands of Sikhs were killed off (not because of brother PakistaniPunjabi) due to the Muslim Mullahs who preached Prophet Muhammad's teachings about how non-Muslims like you should be raped and mistreated. Remember Guru Sahib ordered Sikhs to fight against the evils of pedophilia, slavery and rape of innocent women. Bhul chuk maaf.

  4. All I have to say for this is to listen and understand shabad " bande Khoj dil har roj"

    In this shabad you will understand what our Guruji wants us to do...

    He explains those people are foolish who argue over the religious books and try to prove them as wrong.....which is worthless

    Instead of wasting our energy on this we should look into ourselves and improve ourself

    Bhul chuk maaf ji

    Sister don't apologise. What you say is spiritually true. And you re-inforce to our Pakistani Punjab brother that we have no hatred for him on an individual level at all. He seems to be a decent kinda guy who has just been brainwashed by the usual Mullahs.

    But in the real world Sikhs say let Muslims be good Muslims and let Sikhs be good Sikhs. But Arab Muslims in Saudi Arabia who control Islam (so I am not even talking about our dear Pakistani Punjabi brother) think let Muslims commit all kinds of crimes against non-Muslims and let Muslims work on turning Sikhs into Muslims. Then it's obvious why Islam has grown more via the sword.

    The Jews tried to say let Jews be good Jews and concentrate on there own lives and let the Nazi's be good Nazi's. After that, the Holocaust happened and 6million Jews were killed off by the Nazi's. So Miri and Piri both have there respective places. Bhul chuk maaf.

  5. You sir, I have nothing against your religion but people like you should better stay away from our daughters and sisters....You should go try to understand Koran and pray 5 times a day.. don't waste your time here.... Improve as a muslim and as a human being... That is all I have to say to you...

    ekgurjaskhalsa please don't be so hard on our dear brother Pakistani Punjabi.

    I am sure he reads the Quran a lot as he is a student of Religious Studies at Harvard or some other top prestigious university.

    The Holy Qur'an:

    Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made sexually lawful to thee all thy wives and all those slavegirls whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has awarded to thee"

    This is one of several personal-sounding verses "from Allah" narrated by Prophet Muhammad - in this case allowing himself a virtually unlimited supply of sex partners. Others are restrained to four wives, but may also have sex with any number of slaves, as the following verse make clear:

    Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or the slavegirls (whom their right hands possess)..."

    This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves. See also Qur'an (70:29-30).

    Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those slavegirls whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible.

    Qur'an (8:69) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part. The Muslim slave master may enjoy his "catch" because (according to verse 71) "Allah gave you mastery over them."

    Qur'an (2:178) - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans are not created equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's).

    Qur'an (16:75) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah." Yet another confirmation that the slave is is not equal to the master. In this case it is plain that the slave owes his status to Allah's will. (According to 16:71, the owner should be careful about insulting Allah by bestowing Allah's gifts on slaves - those whom the god of Islam has not favored).

    From the Hadith:

    Bukhari (80:753) - "The Prophet Muhammad said, 'The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him.'"

    Bukhari (52:255) - The slave who accepts Islam and continues serving his Muslim master will receive a double reward in heaven.

    Bukhari (41.598) - The Prophet Muhammad said Slaves are property. They cannot be freed if an owner has outstanding debt, but can be used to pay off the debt.

    Bukhari (62:137) - An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Prophet Muhammad's Muslims after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Prophet Muhammad's approval.

    Bukhari (34:432) - Another account of females taken captive and raped with Prophet Muhammad's approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Prophet Muhammad is asked about coitus interruptus.

    Bukhari (47.765) - A woman is rebuked by Prophet Muhammad for freeing a slave girl. The prophet tells her that she would have gotten a greater heavenly reward by giving her to a relative (as a slave).

    Bukhari (34:351) - Prophet Muhammad sells a black slave for less money as a racist slave trader.

    Bukhari (72:734) - Some contemporary apologist Muslims in the West, where slavery is believed to be a horrible crime, are reluctant to admit openly that Prophet Muhammad owned slaves. This is just one of multiple places in the Hadiths where a reference is made to multiple innocent human beings owned by Prophet Muhammad. In this case, the slaves are of black African descent.

    Muslim 3901 - Prophet Muhammad trades away two black slaves for one Muslim slave.

    Muslim 4112 - A man freed six slaves on the event of his death, but Muhammad reversed the emancipation and kept four slaves in slavery to himself. He cast lots to determine which two to free.

    Bukhari (47:743) - Prophet Muhammad's own pulpit - from which he preached Islam - was built with slave labor on his command.

    Bukhari (59:637) - "The Prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, 'Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?' When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, 'O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?' I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus.'" Prophet Muhammad approved of his men having sex with slaves, as this episode involving his son-in-law, Ali, clearly proves. This hadith refutes the modern apologists who pretend that slaves were really "wives," since Prophet Muhammad had forbidden Ali from marrying another woman as long as Fatima (his favorite daughter) was living.

    Abu Dawud (2150) - "The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Qur'an 4:24) 'And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those captive slavegirls whom your right hands possess.'" This is the background for verse 4:24 of the Qur'an. Not only does Allah grant permission for women to be captured and raped, but allows it to even be done in front of their husbands. (See also Muslim 3432 & Ibn Kathir/Abdul Rahman Part 5 Page 14)

    Abu Dawud 1814 - "...[Abu Bakr] He then began to beat [his slave] him while the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) was smiling and saying: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (putting on ihram), what is he doing?" The future first caliph of Islam is beating his slave for losing a camel while Prophet Muhammad looks on in amusement.

    Ibn Ishaq (734) - A slave girl is given a "violent beating" by Ali in the presence of Prophet Muhammad, who does nothing about it because she was from a poor background.

    Abu Dawud 38:4458 - Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: “A slave-girl belonging to the house of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) committed fornication. He (the Prophet) said: Rush up, Ali, and inflict the prescribed punishment on her. I then hurried up, and saw that blood was flowing from her, and did not stop. So I came to him and he said: Have you finished inflicting (punishment on her)? I said: I went to her while her blood was flowing. He said: Leave her alone till her bleeding stops; then inflict the prescribed punishment on her. And inflict the prescribed punishment on those slaves (whom your right hands possess)”. A slave girl is ordered by Prophet Muhammad to be beaten until she bleeds, and then beaten again after the bleeding stops. He indicates that this is prescribed treatment for slaves ("those whom your right hand possesses").

    Ibn Ishaq (693) - "Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." Prophet Muhammad trades away women and innocent children captured from the Banu Qurayza tribe to non-Muslim slave traders for property. (Their men had been executed after surrendering peacefully without a fight).

    Umdat al-Salik (Reliance of the Traveller) (o9.13) - According to Sharia, when a child or woman is taken captive by Muslims, they become slaves by the mere fact of their capture. A captured woman's previous marriage is immediately annulled.

  6. PakistaniPunjabi is a proud Punjabi brother who we all love as our Punjabi brother from Uggi and Gurpreet is also Punjabi.

    So Gurpreet isn't actually being racist just for disagreeing with Islam's quest for World domination or Islam's human rights record.


    Yes they were + I'm proud that they chose to believe in One God rather than convert like others in Pakistan did

    Pakistanis also chose to believe in one God...simple.

    Allah (the Arabic name for Moon God) and Muhammad (as the biggest self-disguised "partner" of Allah) count as two Gods not one

    C'mon dude u know they were forcibly converted to Islam and the whole world knows it! :lol2:

    What whole world knows it? I study religious studies at one of the most prestigious universities of America. We are taught exactly the same thing as I told you. Islam arrived in India through military conflicts..but expanded due to Sufi tradition. You are just saying stuff that you want people to believe. Guess what? The "world" believes our point of view..and not yours :) ....

    So the Sikh Monotheists as everyone on this site and history confirms were all offered the choice of death or Islam but somehow your Hindu ancestors as out and out Punjabi polytheists somehow only converted out of their own free will (as the Mughals never persecuted them in your imaginary little fantasy world) and regardless of the racist Jizya mafia tax imposed on them by Islam. Even if you admit some conversion was by the power of the sword, it still means that you are descended from innocent people who were brutally forced to convert to Islam by fear of death. Why you are actually proud of the same people that raped and beheaded the community of your ancestors is down to brainwashing. Jalandhar and Doaba is famous for the brutal oppression of your ancestors and mine.

    You say that, yet your name is Arab as a result of the Arab slavemasters. They even think that Arabic is spoken in Heaven! You speak Punjabi today as u were born in Pakistani Punjab. But give the Meccan overlords time and they will have your children or the children's children speaking Arabic as there first language soon enough.

    So Pakistani Punjabis will start speaking Arabic? Don't kid yourself.

    Don't take it so lightly - that's the future dream of those who seek a return of the Islamic Caliphate run from Mecca

    We'll keep on speaking Punjabi and making your jealous b/c Pakistani punjabi is way more richer in dialect than indian punjabi..Pakistani Punjabi has different forms..regional variations..and various sweet and funny accents...Thats why you want us to quit Punjabi and start speaking Arabic.

    Its your wish that arises out of jealousy

    LOL that's a good way to deflect attention from the reality from the fact that Pakistani Muslim elite wish to destroy all trace of Punjabi language and non-Muslim Punjabi heritage but don't get it twisted we are more than happy for you to speak the language of your ancestors, shame the Pakistani Muslim elite want the eradication of the language of your ancestors. They succeeded in converting your name to an Arab slave name and the last thing left to destroy your links with your past is to wipe out your Punjabi language.

    That's the reality bro. More and more peeps are leaving all faiths for western consumerism and Islam is one of the biggest causes of that change.

    lol what? Western consumerism isn't a religion. My little brother is a ardent 'consumer'...He just needs all the good gadgets in the market etc...does that make him any less of a Muslim? haha....Westerners are leaving Christianity...and the only Abrahmic faith "growing" in the West is Islam..Mashallah!

    But there are more Muslims in the West leaving belief in Islam behind in this western faithless society for atheism/non-religion compared to Westerners suckered into Islam, so a religion that punishes people with death for leaving Islam will hardly flourish when people finally gain the cultural freedom to leave it worldwide.

    Actually, I think that Western Islam is even more 'committed' or "intellectual" than Islam in Muslim countries. Here, Muslims actually study Islam..ask questions..explore the faith..etc..and this makes Islam even stronger Mashallah! Ask your Sikh friends on U.S campuses how active/effective MSA (Muslim Student Organization) isis upholding and spreading the message of Islam throughout university campuses..Even they'll know it :biggrin2:

    MSA are nothing but a bunch of joke people who believe that converting an innocent non-Muslim with dawah will result in a reward from Allah. The concept that Allah will reward folks for converting into a man-made religion is just funny. Wait, don't tell me, you're going to say that the words of the Quran were spoken by Allah himself ... shame you have no real proof for such a ridiculously false claim. Muslims and Christians can't even prove that Jesus had a virgin birth like it says in the Quran so why should anybody believe the lies the MSA push?

    I agree but Punjabi has no formal status in Pakistan and just like the Arabs wiped out Coptic, Assyrian, Babylonian languages etc the Urdu speaking elite of Pakistan will wipe out your language soon enough. Ironically Urdu is closer to Hindi that Pakistani's supposedly should hate.

    The elite of Pakistan is itself punjabi for the most part...but yeah, I know..Urdu is regarded as a "higher" language than Punjabi by many young Pakistanis..I guess since Urdu is a national language...thats why? But Punjabi isn't going anywhere Inshallah....

    I really hope your ancestors language survives in Pakistan but the consensus is that the Pakistani elite will enslave you all to Urdu this century.

    I agree but that history doesn't change the reality today + in the 21st century that the elite who control Pakistan will turn you into Urdu-only speakers becuase of the thinking that Punjabi is a kaffir language and Urdu is the language of the Muslims

    hahahha...no one thinks that Punjabi is a kaffir language. Don't act dumb..

    Then why are the Pakistani elite so desperate to kill off Punjabi language in Pakistan - unless they are ashamed of it?

    Many of your Pakistani Punjabi friends in the West can speak Urdu but not Punjabi. You are a dying minority as you were born in Pakistan. But Urdu-speaking elite is clearly going to wipe out Punjabi in Pakistan as Punjabi doesn't have any real encouragement from the Pakistani establishment. Even Imran wants that. In fact, Imran wouldn't mind English as an official language of Pakistan so he could marry another white girl.

    Imran Khan is the greatest political leader of sub-continent alive today :biggrin2:

    He must be a great leader (for you) to make racist comments about the faces of black African children (which are ugly in his eyes) and for fathering an innocent child with Miss White and leaving the baby and her mother to get by on there own.

    Even I speak Urdu..big deal? I speak Urdu with people who are comfortable with Urdu..and I speak Punjabi with people who are comfortable speaking Punjabi...

    Bro by the time you are an old man you'll be lucky to get to speak Punjabi to any youth in Pakistan

    Btw, Indian Punjabi Sikh girls in my highschool told me that my punjabi is reallllyyyyyyy goood :excited:

    Like I said before, we are pleased that you can speak the language of your ancestors. I respect that you being born in Pakistan can speak better Punjabi than many Sikhs outside of Punjab, so as you can see we don't have anything against you on a personal level. What we don't like is the Arab Cultural Empire's ideology that seeks to dominate the World (Islam) and your role as a Punjabi in that on the Arabic Islamic Empire's behalf.

    The Saudi's, rich Arabs and wealthy local elites control Islam for purely political purposes pretty transparently and nakedly.

    Fr ki hoya? It doesn't change the fact that there is no power structure within Islam.

    Of course there is, the Saudi's, the rich Arabs and wealthy local elites are exactly the power structure that Sikhs and others will never surrender to.

    Arab rulers hun haram zaday haigay aaa te sada ki kasoor?

    That's no fault of yours. But if you push their false ideology of an Arab Empire (disguised as a din) then you become their accessory to murder, rape and enslavement.

    So would you allow your daughter to marry a good, honest Sikh dude in the USA? If not, what is it you don't like about Sikhs that believe in one God?

    If I like the guy..why not?

    Well good on you for being a liberal Muslim. Why not go the whole hog and ditch belief in a man who when he was 54 years old bedded a nine year old child? Surely, even you would not tolerate marrying off your 6 year old daughter with the marriage being sexually consummated when your innocent daughter was only 9 years old. A Prophet who even sold innocent women and children. Why not leave him but join us as a brother to fight against the ideology of such people and work for entire humanity instead?

    But there would be alottttttttttttttttttttttttttttt of variables involved. Talking about this now is just waste of time..

    Oh i thought there would be a BUT involved somewhere.

    LOL, try tell that to the Arabs. To them you are just one of the conquered peoples.

    Doesn't matter.

    Good that you have the honesty to at least admit what they think of you. Most Pakistani elites won't even admit that.

    It still doesn't change the fact that Islam gave equality and dignity to all humans..

    The Holy Quran permits slavery. Islam allows man to sell his fellow man for financial gain. The Holy Quran awards 20% of the profits from such slave auctions to Prophet Muhammad. So there is no real equality in Islam and there is no dignity for slavegirls or grooming victims who Allah in the Quran permits Muslim men to freely have sex with (without marrying them). C'mon dude you know the truth!

    LOL because Prophet Muhammad mentioned noble lineage as being an important factor to consider in marriage, which is no different to believing in the caste system

    Prophet Muhammad (SAW) specifically rejected caste-system.

    Prophet Muhammad believed in the system of Slavery and in the importance of noble lineage (which is what the caste system is all about).

    Also, since when considering the family-background of your potential spouse became racist?

    That's what Hindu's also say and so do Pakistani's from Qureshi and Mughal castes say when they don't give let there daughters wed those descended from Hindu converts they enslaved like yourself.

    It happens every where. Would you be willing to marry your daughter in a criminal family?

    PakistaniPunjabi I don't think your Arain caste are criminals. Remember 3% of Arains are still Sikh despite the intense persecution of Arain caste by Mughals in Jalandhar Doaba area

    Yes I agree so-called upper caste Pakistani like Qureshi, Syeds and Mughals are often racist

    lol..who made them "upper caste"? Pakistan is a Muslim country. We don't have caste-system.

    Who are you kidding? You know full well that the Mughals and Qureshi's won't let there daughters wed those from a converted backgroud like yourself that they consider inferior.

    We have "clans" though -_____- You won't find a Qureshi saying "I'm superior to you b/c I'm Qureshi and not arayin"

    So the Indian and Bangladeshi Muslims that complain of discrimination by Qureshi's and Mughals must all be making it up?

    ...and if he actually says that..people will laugh at him, make fun of him, and probably even bully him if he was at school..

    How exactly would they bully the children of the so-called upper castes that control Pakistan?

    I agree Pakistan's Army is no match for America's

    No army is...

    Good that you admit no Muslim nation can stand against America's army

    Last time I checked I thought Pakistan's Army war record was Wars fought = 2 and Lost = 2 (a 100% loss ratio)

    Thats b/c you checked on wikipedia .. :lol2:

    Pakistan Army fought three wars on Western front and didn't lose even one

    Tell me more bro, educate all of us on this forum about how Pakistan's invincible Army has never lost a war ...

    ...Sometimes they had stalemates and sometimes straight victory..

    Oh really ... which alternate universe was that in?

    The only defeat was political that happened on E.Pakistan front..not the original Pakistan. Pakistan Army is based in W. Pakistan...not in East...

    Ok so the Sikhs freeing Muslim Bangladeshi's from the rape, murder and enslavement the suffered from so-called upper caste Pakistani's never happened and General Shabeg Singh and General JJ Singh and General Arora never freed our Bangladeshi brothers and sisters from Pakistani oppression?

    Also, not to mention, Air wars, PAF just HAMMERED IAF every time... :biggrin2:

    Tell me more, as I'm not Indian, I'm interested to know more ...

    Careful you might not wanna admit such support continues today for the Taliban unless Obama finds out

    Obama already knows........

    True Obama knows where Pakistani Punjabi's stand on anything related to terrorism

    Common sense is the biggest ideological threat facing Islam. The more Muslims use it in the free West, the more they will leave Islam. You should join the process and ditch all this pride in the ideology of the very same people that raped, conquered and converted your Punjabi Hindu ancestors

    You have no idea of historical Islamic scholarship or Islam's theology etc. Have you ever wondered why Judaism and Christianity just scummed to post-enlightenment secular onslaught while Islam performed really well infront of secular rational onslaught, Mashallah?

    How can Islam perform really well? If you think pedophilia, slavery and drinking camel urine show how great Prophet Muhammad was then I think most people in the World with a bit of common sense disagree with you.

    Classical Islam is based on enlightenment, rational era..Remember, Islam saw the "golden age" early in his career? Scholars in as early as 8th century questioned Islam, Qur'an, Prophet Muhammad, Islamic Theology etc etc

    Whoever questioned Islam was put to death by Muhammad in his lifetime and the Quran proves this. No matter what excuses you use that slavery and pedophilia were ok 1400 years ago they won't wash with anybody in the 21st century who opposes the abuse of innocent children or slavery.

    ...So Islam has already seen all of it and Mashallah is geared to survive in the harshest of environments

    The onslaught of common sense against slavery and pedophilia is yet to follow.

    Islam is only protected at the moment by George W. Bush's big lie when he evacuated the Bin Laden's out of Texas that "Islam is a religion of peace" LOL

    ..that is why it is THE most successful religion of human history.

    True that Islam has been responsible for a greater number of murders, rapes, enslavements in the history of humanity.

    Show me another faith that got 2.2 billion followers in first 1450 years of its existence and became a global religion and spreaded everywhere? Only Islam can do that..Mashallah!

    Show me any other religion based upon the sayings of a man who at the age of 54 sexually consummated his marriage with 9 year old wife Aisha, who personally sold women and children into slavery and who claimed his own words were the words of Almighty Allah? The more murders, rapes and enslavements a religion does the more it grows. It doesn't mean it's the truth!

    So this argument of common sense blah blah is weak.. Do you know that the field of "Qur'anic Textual Criticism" arose in 8th-9th century? Scholars, theologians, rational skepticals etc just teared through Islam..asking questions after questions..questioning everything..doubting every aspect of Islam...and hence the Islamic Scholarship arose. The base of Islam is VERY strong Mashallah..it has already faced the 'music' and came through it...

    They are so confident that Islam is the truth is that they have to kill these people for leaving Islam

    Other religions just failed.

    At least other religions like Sikhi that you class as failures did not murder hundred of millions of innocent or rape innocent women and sell children into slavery, although Christianity and Islam are probably both worthy of 1st prize for pure evil

    While Islam swepts through the world globally Mashallah :biggrin2:

    The time for conversion by the sword, pedophilia and slavery to sweep through the World is coming to an end and slowly the weak will fight back.

    Intresting how you say that with so much pride despite being an American citizen. But Americans are getting wise that this is how many Pakistani's secretly think inside despite not saying it out aloud when trying to get that green card.

    lol...I didn't say this with pride.

    Don't worry bro you have your green card already. Even if you are proud at how Pakistan's ISI outfoxed America you can't be sent back to Pakistani Punjab

  7. Yes they were + I'm proud that they chose to believe in One God rather than convert like others in Pakistan did

    Pakistanis also chose to believe in one God...simple.

    Allah (the Arabic name for Moon God) and Muhammad (as the biggest self-disguised "partner" of Allah) count as two Gods not one

    C'mon dude u know they were forcibly converted to Islam and the whole world knows it! :lol2:

    What whole world knows it? I study religious studies at one of the most prestigious universities of America. We are taught exactly the same thing as I told you. Islam arrived in India through military conflicts..but expanded due to Sufi tradition. You are just saying stuff that you want people to believe. Guess what? The "world" believes our point of view..and not yours :) ....

    So the Sikh Monotheists as everyone on this site and history confirms were all offered the choice of death or Islam but somehow your Hindu ancestors as out and out Punjabi polytheists somehow only converted out of their own free will (as the Mughals never persecuted them in your imaginary little fantasy world) and regardless of the racist Jizya mafia tax imposed on them by Islam. Even if you admit some conversion was by the power of the sword, it still means that you are descended from innocent people who were brutally forced to convert to Islam by fear of death. Why you are actually proud of the same people that raped and beheaded the community of your ancestors is down to brainwashing. Jalandhar and Doaba is famous for the brutal oppression of your ancestors and mine.

    You say that, yet your name is Arab as a result of the Arab slavemasters. They even think that Arabic is spoken in Heaven! You speak Punjabi today as u were born in Pakistani Punjab. But give the Meccan overlords time and they will have your children or the children's children speaking Arabic as there first language soon enough.

    So Pakistani Punjabis will start speaking Arabic? Don't kid yourself.

    Don't take it so lightly - that's the future dream of those who seek a return of the Islamic Caliphate run from Mecca

    We'll keep on speaking Punjabi and making your jealous b/c Pakistani punjabi is way more richer in dialect than indian punjabi..Pakistani Punjabi has different forms..regional variations..and various sweet and funny accents...Thats why you want us to quit Punjabi and start speaking Arabic.

    Its your wish that arises out of jealousy

    LOL that's a good way to deflect attention from the reality from the fact that Pakistani Muslim elite wish to destroy all trace of Punjabi language and non-Muslim Punjabi heritage but don't get it twisted we are more than happy for you to speak the language of your ancestors, shame the Pakistani Muslim elite want the eradication of the language of your ancestors. They succeeded in converting your name to an Arab slave name and the last thing left to destroy your links with your past is to wipe out your Punjabi language.

    That's the reality bro. More and more peeps are leaving all faiths for western consumerism and Islam is one of the biggest causes of that change.

    lol what? Western consumerism isn't a religion. My little brother is a ardent 'consumer'...He just needs all the good gadgets in the market etc...does that make him any less of a Muslim? haha....Westerners are leaving Christianity...and the only Abrahmic faith "growing" in the West is Islam..Mashallah!

    But there are more Muslims in the West leaving belief in Islam behind in this western faithless society for atheism/non-religion compared to Westerners suckered inti Islam, so a religion that punishes people with death for leaving Islam will hardly flourish when people finally gain the cultural freedom to leave it worldwide.

    Actually, I think that Western Islam is even more 'committed' or "intellectual" than Islam in Muslim countries. Here, Muslims actually study Islam..ask questions..explore the faith..etc..and this makes Islam even stronger Mashallah! Ask your Sikh friends on U.S campuses how active/effective MSA (Muslim Student Organization) isis upholding and spreading the message of Islam throughout university campuses..Even they'll know it :biggrin2:

    MSA are nothing but a bunch of joke people who believe that converting an innocent non-Muslim with dawah will result in a reward from Allah. The concept that Allah will reward folks for converting into a man-made religion is just funny. Wait, don't tell me, you're going to say that the words of the Quran were spoken by Allah himself ... shame you have no real proof for such a ridiculously false claim. Muslims and Christians can't even prove that Jesus had a virgin birth like it says in the Quran so why should anybody believe the lies the MSA push?

    I agree but Punjabi has no formal status in Pakistan and just like the Arabs wiped out Coptic, Assyrian, Babylonian languages etc the Urdu speaking elite of Pakistan will wipe out your language soon enough. Ironically Urdu is closer to Hindi that Pakistani's supposedly should hate.

    The elite of Pakistan is itself punjabi for the most part...but yeah, I know..Urdu is regarded as a "higher" language than Punjabi by many young Pakistanis..I guess since Urdu is a national language...thats why? But Punjabi isn't going anywhere Inshallah....

    I really hope your ancestors language survives in Pakistan but the consensus is that the Pakistani elite will enslave you all to Urdu this century.

    I agree but that history doesn't change the reality today + in the 21st century that the elite who control Pakistan will turn you into Urdu-only speakers becuase of the thinking that Punjabi is a kaffir language and Urdu is the language of the Muslims

    hahahha...no one thinks that Punjabi is a kaffir language. Don't act dumb..

    Then why are the Pakistani elite so desperate to kill off Punjabi language in Pakistan - unless they are ashamed of it?

    Many of your Pakistani Punjabi friends in the West can speak Urdu but not Punjabi. You are a dying minority as you were born in Pakistan. But Urdu-speaking elite is clearly going to wipe out Punjabi in Pakistan as Punjabi doesn't have any real encouragement from the Pakistani establishment. Even Imran wants that. In fact, Imran wouldn't mind English as an official language of Pakistan so he could marry another white girl.

    Imran Khan is the greatest political leader of sub-continent alive today :biggrin2:

    He must be a great leader for you to make racist comments about the faces of black African children (which are ugly in his eyes) and for fathering an innocent child with Miss White and leaving the baby and her mother to get by on there own.

    Even I speak Urdu..big deal? I speak Urdu with people who are comfortable with Urdu..and I speak Punjabi with people who are comfortable speaking Punjabi...

    Bro by the time you are an old man you'll be lucky to get to speak Punjabi to any youth in Pakistan

    Btw, Indian Punjabi Sikh girls in my highschool told me that my punjabi is reallllyyyyyyy goood :excited:

    Like I said before, we are pleased that you can speak the language of your ancestors. I respect that you being born in Pakistan can speak better Punjabi than many Sikhs outside of Punjab, so as you can see we don't have anything against you on a personal level. What we don't like is the Arab Cultural Empire's ideology that seeks to dominate the World (Islam) and your role as a Punjabi in that on the Arabic Islamic Empire's behalf.

    The Saudi's, rich Arabs and wealthy local elites control Islam for purely political purposes pretty transparently and nakedly.

    Fr ki hoya? It doesn't change the fact that there is no power structure within Islam.

    Of course there is, the Saudi's, the rich Arabs and wealthy local elites are exactly the power structure that Sikhs and others will never surrender to.

    Arab rulers hun haram zaday haigay aaa te sada ki kasoor?

    That's no fault of yours. But if you push their false ideology of an Arab Empire (disguised as a din) then you become their accessory to murder, rape and enslavement.

    So would you allow your daughter to marry a good, honest Sikh dude in the USA? If not, what is it you don't like about Sikhs that believe in one God?

    If I like the guy..why not?

    Well good on you for being a liberal Muslim. Why not go the whole hog and ditch belief in a man who when he was 54 years old bedded a nine year old child? Surely, even you would not tolerate marrying off your 6 year old daughter with the marriage being sexually consummated when your innocent daughter was only 9 years old. A Prophet who even sold innocent women and children. Why not leave him but join us as a brother to fight against the ideology of such people and work for entire humanity instead?

    But there would be alottttttttttttttttttttttttttttt of variables involved. Talking about this now is just waste of time..

    Oh i thought there would be a BUT involved somewhere.

    LOL, try tell that to the Arabs. To them you are just one of the conquered peoples.

    Doesn't matter.

    Good that you have the honesty to at least admit what they think of you. Most Pakistani elites won't even admit that.

    It still doesn't change the fact that Islam gave equality and dignity to all humans..

    The Holy Quran permits slavery. Islam allows man to sell his fellow man for financial gain. The Holy Quran awards 20% of the profits from such slave auctions to Prophet Muhammad. So there is no real equality in Islam and there is no dignity for slavegirls or grooming victims who Allah in the Quran permits Muslim men to freely have sex with (without marrying them). C'mon dude you know the truth!

    LOL because Prophet Muhammad mentioned noble lineage as being an important factor to consider in marriage, which is no different to believing in the caste system

    Prophet Muhammad (SAW) specifically rejected caste-system.

    Prophet Muhammad believed in the system of Slavery and in the importance of noble lineage (which is what the caste system is all about).

    Also, since when considering the family-background of your potential spouse became racist?

    That's what Hindu's also say and so do Pakistani's from Qureshi and Mughal castes say when they don't give let there daughters wed those descended from Hindu converts they enslaved like yourself.

    It happens every where. Would you be willing to marry your daughter in a criminal family?

    PakistaniPunjabi I don't think your Arain caste are criminals. Remember 3% of Arains are still Sikh despite the intense persecution of Arain caste by Mughals in Jalandhar Doaba area

    Yes I agree so-called upper caste Pakistani like Qureshi, Syeds and Mughals are often racist

    lol..who made them "upper caste"? Pakistan is a Muslim country. We don't have caste-system.

    Who are you kidding? You know full well that the Mughals and Qureshi's won't let there daughters wed those from a converted backgroud like yourself that they consider inferior.

    We have "clans" though -_____- You won't find a Qureshi saying "I'm superior to you b/c I'm Qureshi and not arayin"

    So the Indian and Bangladeshi Muslims that complain of discrimination by Qureshi's and Mughals must all be making it up?

    ...and if he actually says that..people will laugh at him, make fun of him, and probably even bully him if he was at school..

    How exactly would they bully the children of the so-called upper castes that control Pakistan?

    I agree Pakistan's Army is no match for America's

    No army is...

    Good that you admit no Muslim nation can stand against America's army

    Last time I checked I thought Pakistan's Army war record was Wars fought = 2 and Lost = 2 (a 100% loss ratio)

    Thats b/c you checked on wikipedia .. :lol2:

    Pakistan Army fought three wars on Western front and didn't lose even one

    Tell me more bro, educate all of us on this forum about how Pakistan's invincible Army has never lost a war ...

    ...Sometimes they had stalemates and sometimes straight victory..

    Oh really ... which alternate universe was that in?

    The only defeat was political that happened on E.Pakistan front..not the original Pakistan. Pakistan Army is based in W. Pakistan...not in East...

    Ok so the Sikhs freeing Muslim Bangladeshi's from the rape, murder and enslavement the suffered from so-called upper caste Pakistani's never happened and General Shabeg Singh and General JJ Singh and General Arora never freed our Bangladeshi brothers and sisters from Pakistani oppression?

    Also, not to mention, Air wars, PAF just HAMMERED IAF every time... :biggrin2:

    Tell me more, as I'm not Indian, I'm interested to know more ...

    Careful you might not wanna admit such support continues today for the Taliban unless Obama finds out

    Obama already knows........

    True Obama knows where Pakistani Punjabi's stand on anything related to terrorism

    Common sense is the biggest ideological threat facing Islam. The more Muslims use it in the free West, the more they will leave Islam. You should join the process and ditch all this pride in the ideology of the very same people that raped, conquered and converted your Punjabi Hindu ancestors

    You have no idea of historical Islamic scholarship or Islam's theology etc. Have you ever wondered why Judaism and Christianity just scummed to post-enlightenment secular onslaught while Islam performed really well infront of secular rational onslaught, Mashallah?

    How can Islam perform really well? If you think pedophilia, slavery and drinking camel urine show how great Prophet Muhammad was then I think most people in the World with a bit of common sense disagree with you.

    Classical Islam is based on enlightenment, rational era..Remember, Islam saw the "golden age" early in his career? Scholars in as early as 8th century questioned Islam, Qur'an, Prophet Muhammad, Islamic Theology etc etc

    Whoever, questioned Islam was put to death by Muhammad in his lifetime and the Quran proves this. No matter what excuses you use that slavery and pedophilia were ok 1400 years ago they won't wash with anybody in the 21st century who opposes the abuse of innocent children or slavery.

    ...So Islam has already seen all of it and Mashallah is geared to survive in the harshest of environments

    The onsluaght of common sense against slavery and pedophilia is yet to follow.

    Islam is only protected at the moment by George W. Bush's big lie when he evacuated the Bin Laden's out of Texas that "Islam is a religion of peace" LOL

    ..that is why it is THE most successful religion of human history.

    True that Islam has been responsible for a greater number of murders, rapes, enslavements in the history of humanity.

    Show me another faith that got 2.2 billion followers in first 1450 years of its existence and became a global religion and spreaded everywhere? Only Islam can do that..Mashallah!

    Show me any other religion based upon the sayings of a man who at the age of 54 sexually consummated his marriage with 9 year old wife Aisha, who personally sold women and children into slavery and who claimed his own words were the words of Almighty Allah? The more murders, rapes and enslavements a religion does the more it grows. It doesn't mean it's the truth!

    So this argument of common sense blah blah is weak.. Do you know that the field of "Qur'anic Textual Criticism" arose in 8th-9th century? Scholars, theologians, rational skepticals etc just teared through Islam..asking questions after questions..questioning everything..doubting every aspect of Islam...and hence the Islamic Scholarship arose. The base of Islam is VERY strong Mashallah..it has already faced the 'music' and came through it...

    They are so confident that Islam is the truth is that they have to kill these people for leaving Islam

    Other religions just failed.

    At least other religions like Sikhi that you class as failures did not murder hundred of millions of innocent or rape innocent women and sell children into slavery, although Christianity and Islam are probably both worthy of 1st prize for pure evil

    While Islam swepts through the world globally Mashallah :biggrin2:

    The time for conversion by the sword, pedophilia and slavery to sweep through the World is coming to an end and slowly the weak will fight back.

    Intresting how you say that with so much pride despite being an American citizen. But Americans are getting wise that this is how many Pakistani's secretly think inside despite not saying it out aloud when trying to get that green card.

    lol...I didn't say this with pride.

    Don't worry bro you have your green card already. Even if you are proud at how Pakistan's ISI outfoxed America you can't be sent back to Pakistani Punjab

  8. Well, your ancestors were also either Hindu or Muslims..later they converted to Sikhism.

    Yes they were + I'm proud that they chose to believe in One God rather than convert like others in Pakistan did

    How do we know that my ancestors were forced to convert to Islam?

    C'mon dude u know they were forcibly converted to Islam and the whole world knows it! :lol2:

    Over-whelming majority of Muslims in Punjab became Muslims due to Sufi Saints, and not because of any conversions.

    LOL that's the story that every Pakistani pretends that they believe when they try look themselves in the mirror :toohappy:

    Islam spread in India due to Sufis..not b/c of military power. Islam "arrived" in India mainly due to military conflicts

    That's what u convince urself is the case. The truth is that who wasn't converted by sword got converted by the Jizya mafia tax on non-muslims. It's a well known fact that Pakistani Jat, Rajputs and Arains like yourself have ancestors who converted out of Hinduism if not to save their lives then certainly to save their land from confiscation by Mughals via the racist Jizya mafia tax imposed against non-muslims.

    Arabs can go to hell. I don't care about Arabs

    You say that, yet your name is Arab as a result of the Arab slavemasters. They even think that Arabic is spoken in Heaven! You speak Punjabi today as u were born in Pakistani Punjab. But give the Meccan overlords time and they will have your children or the children's children speaking Arabic as there first language soon enough. Hopefully with you being lucky enough to be in the States u will give your kids the freedom to opt out of Islam if they have question marks about the character of the Prophet and his dealings with slavery, women, jews etc

    If it wasn't for our holy places, Saudi Arabia would have been as irrelevant to Islamic World as Sri Lanka is...

    I agree. It's pretty transparent that the Hajj was purely a business exercise for the local Qureshi caste under the cover of it being requirement insisted by God. The fact that Muhammad thought God needs humans to make the Hajj just shows what a limited view of Allah, Prophet Muhammad actually held. The Sikh Guru's explained that pilgrimages are not required by God and nor do they achieve anything - except making the Saudi Arabians richer than they already are.

    lol....how come watching porn relates to Islam? Its not like you watch porn for the first time and you go "O.K, F*ck Islam. I like porn better. I'm leaving the religion" hahaha...If that was the case, all religions would've became extinct by now.. lol..

    That's the reality bro. More and more peeps are leaving all faiths for western consumerism and Islam is one of the biggest causes of that change. As many people examine the life of the Prophet Muhammad and are disgusted by the actions of a so-called man of God who murdered political opponents, sold humans into slavery for a few more dollars in his bank account and married his favorite wife Aisha when she was 6 and began sexual relations with her when was 9 years old as admitted in the Hadiths of Sahih al-Bukhari.

    Punjabi's core lies in Pakistan--not in india or indian punjab.

    I agree but Punjabi has no formal status in Pakistan and just like the Arabs wiped out Coptic, Assyrian, Babylonian languages etc the Urdu speaking elite of Pakistan will wipe out your language soon enough. Ironically Urdu is closer to Hindi that Pakistani's supposedly should hate.

    Pakistan has largest punjabi speaking population in the world..All the great poets, Sufi masters, writers, and scholars of Punjabi language were mainly Muslims.

    I agree but that history doesn't change the reality today + in the 21st century that the elite who control Pakistan will turn you into Urdu-only speakers becuase of the thinking that Punjabi is a kaffir language and Urdu is the language of the Muslims

    Pakistan is the original holder of Punjabi language and culture...and it will remain so in coming decades too..Inshallah.

    Many of your Pakistani Punjabi friends in the West can speak Urdu but not Punjabi. You are a dying minority as you were born in Pakistan. But Urdu-speaking elite is clearly going to wipe out Punjabi in Pakistan as Punjabi doesn't have any real encouragement from the Pakistani establishment. Even Imran wants that. In fact, Imran wouldn't mind English as an official language of Pakistan so he could marry another white girl.

    There is no 'power structure' within Islam. It is no Catholic Church...

    The Saudi's, rich Arabs and wealthy local elites control Islam for purely political purposes pretty transparently and nakedly.

    Depends where my daughter is and what is the situation. Yeah, if she is USA..then a different story...

    So would you allow your daughter to marry a good, honest Sikh dude in the USA? If not, what is it you don't like about Sikhs that believe in one God?

    So the text written in blue is not yours but this Qureshi caste Pakistani guy's?

    That's right. I'm not Qureshi - I'm Sikh

    Islam lifted humans to equal level and dignity. It doesn't matter what anyone previously was.

    LOL, try tell that to the Arabs. To them you are just one of the conquered peoples.

    Where were Arabs before Islam? After Islam, they became the global leaders of humanity..

    You said it yourself. By killing, plundering, raping + enslaving with Islam's permission they created an Islamic Empire

    What were Turks before Islam? Bunch of nomads in central asian plains? After Islam, they became the global super power of the world etc.

    You said it yourself. By killing, plundering, raping + enslaving with Islam's permission they created an Islamic Empire

    So there is nothing "genetic" in human beings.

    I agree but try tell that to the racist Arabs that control the Hajj profits in Mecca

    Islam doesn't believe in caste-system.

    LOL because Prophet Muhammad mentioned noble lineage as being an important factor to consider in marriage, which is no different to believing in the caste system

    lines are racist and derogatory.

    Yes I agree so-called upper caste Pakistani like Qureshi, Syeds and Mughals are often racist

    There generals command one of the toughest militaries on the face of the planet..they are as good as any other generals. Can they fight U.S? No.

    I agree Pakistan's Army is no match for America's

    Pakistan Military is geared to defend Pakistan against indian threat from the East..and it does a good job of doing it...

    Last time I checked I thought Pakistan's Army war record was Wars fought = 2 and Lost = 2 (a 100% loss ratio)

    Pakistan military has its short-comings...just like all other militaries. Atleast it is not corrupt as indian military...haha...

    We aren't talking about indians here. Pakistanis aren't slaves of white-masters as indians are. Our so-called corrupt elite might be, but average Pakistani on the street isn't. While average indian will do anything to get "approved" by his/her gora master. Indians will defend Israelis against Palestinians, Americans against their actions in Afghanistan, Europeans against Chinese and so on. It shows how badly indians are arse-lickers of whites..they won't defend their own people (Brown, Asian)..but they'll defend their "masters" (White, Western). Even Chinese have observed this trend among indians (I've personally seen many chinese saying this)...

    Your point regarding Indian Army has no relavance to me as I'm not Indian.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Also, Pakistan Military is an ideological Islamic military at its core (not talking about generals)... Pakistan Military defeated the Soviet Union by conducting an Islamic Asymmetric war in Afghanistan and by supporting it from Pakistan (With the help of U.S and Saudis). Pakistani officers fought and died along with Jihadists in Afghan war....It was for Pakistani interests and for the interests of Islam globally.

    Careful you might not wanna admit such support continues today for the Taliban unless Obama finds out and orders another raid into Punjab which leaves the Pak Army doing nothing except holding their lower parts in fear.

    Communism was the last ideological threat to Islam remaining in this world.

    Common sense is the biggest ideological threat facing Islam. The more Muslims use it in the free West, the more they will leave Islam. You should join the process and ditch all this pride in the ideology of the very same people that raped, conquered and converted your Punjabi Hindu ancestors

    So much for being the coolies of America, we screwed U.S.A in Afghanistan big time!

    Intresting how you say that with so much pride despite being an American citizen. But Americans are getting wise that this is how many Pakistani's secretly think inside despite not saying it out aloud when trying to get that green card.

    As the war nears its end..its becoming clearer and clearer that Pakistani interests in Afghanistan will be protected

    Thats wonderful that you Pakistani Punjabi's can control Afghanistan. I'm pleased for your pride in such a great achievement

    and indians will find no space to maneuver much in Afghanistan.

    People on this forum don't give a damn about India's goverment and neither do they support it

    In fact the existence of Pakistan is the only glue that holds India together. The minute Islam and Pakistan disintegrate, then so will Hinduism and India. If you are a true friend of Sikhs then you should join that change and ditch Islam and pride in Pakistan to put us one step closer to a sub-continent where all people have their own independent states from Balochistan to Pakhtunwa to Punjab and Gujarat and Maharashtra and beyond.

  9. I don't know, but i was taught that you don't need the body after. All it is is an empty vessel. There's nothing special about it. The things Sikhi promotes is seva and helping others. What bigger seva is there than donating your body to a good cause or giving organs to someone in need?

    there is a shortage of asian/indian donors so transplant registers for asian patients are very long.

    ^^^ totally agree with the 2 brothers above

  10. Same Pattern, same peoples.

    Five men 'groomed vulnerable young girls with drugs and alcohol before sexually assaulting them and forcing them into prostitution'
    • The men on trial are Naeem Ahmed, 25, Nabeel Ahmed, 24, and his brother Jameel, 24, Anas Iqbal, 25, and Hassan Raza, 23
    • They were given drugs and alcohol before being passed on to other men for sex, Snaresbrook Crown Court heard
    • One girl claims she was pinned down on a bed by one of the men so another two could rape her
    • Girls are classed as children if they are forced into prostitution before 18

    By TARA BRADY

    PUBLISHED: 16:54, 4 June 2013 | UPDATED: 17:33, 4 June 2013

    305 shares
    article-2335801-1A242733000005DC-701_306

    Anas Iqbal who is on trial at Snaresbrook Crown Court along with four others accused of grooming young girls

    A gang of men groomed young girls from troubled backgrounds before sexually assaulting them and forcing them into prostitution, a court heard today.

    Naeem Ahmed, 25, Nabeel Ahmed, 24, and his brother Jameel, 24, Anas Iqbal, 25, and Hassan Raza, 23, allegedly targeted six girls, three of whom lived in care homes, between January and December last year.

    They were given drugs and alcohol before being passed on to other men for sex, Snaresbrook Crown Court heard.

    One girl claims she was pinned down on a bed by one of the men so another two could rape her.

    The same girl, who was 17 at the time, claims Naeem Ahmed, promised to be her boyfriend if she let him sell her to other men for money.

    The court heard she did it ‘because I thought I was in love with him and wanted to make him happy.’

    In the following months Naeem, known as Ricky, pimped her out to his pals sometimes for just £20 a time, a jury heard.

    The gang tried to recruit other girls from the care system but when they refused to have sex with them they told Ricky’s girlfriend she would have to do it instead to ‘show him she was his top girl,' prosecutor Kate Bex said.

    The court heard that the gang told a teenage girl she could work for them if she had a threesome.

    A teenage girl was allegedly told: 'It’s just a bit of fun, we’re all friends here.'

    The court also heard how Raza forced the 18-year-old to strip while he took pictures of her on his mobile phone.

    He attempted to tear her clothes off and shouted 'Why aren't you f**king smiling,' it is claimed.

    The gang’s activities only came to light after the girls confided in care workers at the home who were concerned they may have become involved in prostitution.

    It took time to identify them because the victims did not know the full names of the men and they often used English pseudonyms.

    It then emerged they had been questioned by officers in May 2012 after they were accused of raping an 18-year-old girl who they picked up after seeing her row with a friend.

    Two more girls, aged 16 and 17, later came forward claiming they had also been abused by the gang after being offered a lift by them.

    The younger girl alleges she was raped five times by Iqbal after being plied with booze and cocaine while her friend claims he also tried to rape her.

    The five men now face 17 charges between them including sexual assault, rape, inciting child prostitution, paying for the sexual services of a child and controlling a child prostitute.

    The alleged offences mostly took place at a house in Chadwell Heath, east London, but the girls say they were also taken to hotels in Ilford and Barking for sex.

    article-2335801-1A0CFD79000005DC-309_634

    On trial: The men, all from Essex and east London, denied the charges at Snaresbrook Crown Court

    The girls, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, claim on many occasions the men did not use any contraception.

    Two of the girls were also forced to pose for nude pictures which the gang took on their mobile phones, jurors were told.

    Opening the case, prosecutor Miss Bex said: 'This case is about the sexual exploitation of young girls by the defendants.

    'All of these girls are from difficult, troubled backgrounds and are vulnerable young people.

    'They share many of the same characteristics; the majority have no concept of self worth, they have been deprived of material possessions, love and often both.

    'The men concerned in the grooming of such young people pray on this. They are fully aware that they have been starved of affection and use this as a way to feed their own criminal means and as a tool to exploit them.'

    Referring to a report made by a care worker to the police Miss Bex said: 'He describes how these young people have never received any therapeutic intervention or help and that as a result they struggle emotionally and may be incapable of giving or receiving love, making them vulnerable to predators and manipulators.

    'From the work he has done in the past 10 years he is able to say that these vulnerable people have not experienced warmth and affection and that because of their past experiences sexual contact is often viewed as affection.'

    Under the law girls are classed as children if they are forced into prostitution before they are 18.

    The men, all from Essex and east London, deny the charges.

    The case continues.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2335801/Five-men-groomed-vulnerable-young-girls-drugs-alcohol-sexually-assaulting-forcing-prostitution.html#ixzz2VHeOOwf0

    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2335801/Five-men-groomed-vulnerable-young-girls-drugs-alcohol-sexually-assaulting-forcing-prostitution.html

    This is just evil.

    But no doubt the Pakistani Muslims were doing it for the power of Islam as the Holy Quran say its ok to have sex with women you own as slaves (or women who you control thru grooming)

    Holy Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made (sexually) lawful to thee thy wives and those slavegirls (whom thy right hand possesses) out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has blessed the Prophet with"

    The Holy Quran allows slavery and sex with slave girls (Quran 3.4, 3.24, 23.6,33.50,70.30). Blessed Hadiths and the Holy Prophet Muhammad's biography confirm that Prophet Muhammad had many slavegirls and slaves as the Holy Quran gave Prophet Muhammad a 20% share of the profits from raids against non-Muslims including captured slaves and slavegirls (his wives Safia, Juavaria, and Rehana were captured after killing their husbands in raids). The Prophet Muhammad's slavegirl Maria even fell pregnant as the Muslims admit in the Hadiths. So these Pakistani's were only following their Glorious Leader. In fact the Prophet Muhammad's favorite wife Aisha was even younger (9 years old) when the marriage was sexually consummated.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Pakistani Muslims are even tweeting on twitter that they are glad Muslim actress Jiah Khan died for leaving Islam

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/bollywood/news-interviews/Troubled-love-affair-failing-career-drove-Jiah-Khan-to-suicide-police-say/articleshow/20429686.cms

    MUMBAI: Young actress Jiah Khan allegedly committed suicide by hanging herself. Police claimed that she was heartbroken after a failed relationship with the son of an actor couple which possibly drove her to take the step at her home last night.

    The body of Jiah Khan, 25, was found hanging at her 'Sagar Sangeet' residence in Juhu last night where she lived with her mother and sister who were not present when she ended her life.

    Preliminary investigation has revealed that she was in a relationship with Suraj, son of actor couple Aditya Pancholi and Zarina Wahab for nearly a year. Jiah Khan was said to be under depression after coming to know of Suraj's new love interest, who supplied jewellery to the Pancholis.

  11. MrSingh559 veerji i think these are the quotes from the Quran u meant:

    TheReligionofPeace.com
    Guide to Understanding Islam

    What does the
    Religion of Peace
    Teach About...

    Violence


    Question:

    Does the Quran really contain dozens of verses promoting violence?


    Summary Answer:

    The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

    Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran.

    The context of violent passages is more ambiguous than might be expected of a perfect book from a loving God, however this can work both ways. Most of today's Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book's call to arms according to their own moral preconceptions about justifiable violence. Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology.

    Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad's own martial legacy - and that of his companions - along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history.


    The Quran:

    Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

    Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

    Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

    Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

    Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

    Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

    Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

    Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

    Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

    Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

    Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

    Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

    Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

    Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:293, also). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

    Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

    Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

    Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

    Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had the power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.

    Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

    Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic word interpreted as "striving" in this verse is the same root as "Jihad". The context is obviously holy war.

    Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

    Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

    Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

    Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

    Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

    Quran (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

    Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

    Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

    Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction." (Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).

    Quran (18:65-81) - This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with "special knowledge" who does things which don't seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would "grieve" his parents by "disobedience and ingratitude." He was killed so that Allah could provide them a 'better' son. (Note: This is one reason why honor killing is sanctioned by Sharia. Reliance of the Traveler (Umdat al-Saliq) says that punishment for murder is not applicable when a parent or grandparent kills their offspring (o.1.1-2).)

    Quran (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

    Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

    Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter." This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered "merciless" and "horrible murder" in other translations) against three groups: Hypocrites (Muslims who refuse to "fight in the way of Allah" (3:167) and hence don't act as Muslims should), those with "diseased hearts" (which include Jews and Christians 5:51-52), and "alarmists" or "agitators who include those who merely speak out against Islam, according to Muhammad's biographers. It is worth noting that the victims are to be sought out by Muslims, which is what today's terrorists do. If this passage is meant merely to apply to the city of Medina, then it is unclear why it is included in Allah's eternal word to Muslim generations.

    Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similitude. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners," Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle. The verse goes on to say the only reason Allah doesn't do the dirty work himself is in order to to test the faithfulness of Muslims. Those who kill pass the test. "But if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."

    Quran (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"

    Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted? This verse also says that those who do not fight will suffer torment in hell.

    Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status. Also the word used for 'hard' or 'ruthless' in this verse shares the same root as the word translated as 'painful' or severe' in verse 16.

    Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed! The verse explicitly refers to "battle array" meaning war. This is followed by (61:9): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist." (See next verse, below). Infidels who resist Islamic rule are to be fought.

    Quran (61:10-12) - "O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of 'Adn - Eternity ['Adn (Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success." This verse refers to physical battle in order to make Islam victorious over other religions (see above). It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.

    Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.

    From the Hadith:

    Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

    Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.

    Bukhari (52:65) - The Prophet said, 'He who fights that Allah's Word, Islam, should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause. Muhammad's words are the basis for offensive Jihad - spreading Islam by force. This is how it was understood by his companions, and by the terrorists of today.

    Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

    Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)

    Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious

    Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

    Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

    Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

    Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."

    Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."

    Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"

    Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihad died the death of a hypocrite.'"

    Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."

    Muslim (19:4294) - "When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.

    Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.

    Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

    Tabari 17:187 "'By God, our religion (din) from which we have departed is better and more correct than that which these people follow. Their religion does not stop them from shedding blood, terrifying the roads, and seizing properties.' And they returned to their former religion." The words of a group of Christians who had converted to Islam, but realized their error after being shocked by the violence and looting committed in the name of Allah. The price of their decision to return to a religion of peace was that the men were beheaded and the woman and children enslaved by the caliph Ali.

    Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 327: - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

    Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 990: - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern creation, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.

    Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

    Saifur Rahman, The Sealed Nectar p.227-228 - "Embrace Islam... If you two accept Islam, you will remain in command of your country; but if your refuse my Call, you’ve got to remember that all of your possessions are perishable. My horsemen will appropriate your land, and my Prophethood will assume preponderance over your kingship." One of several letters from Muhammad to rulers of other countries. The significance is that the recipients were not making war or threatening Muslims. Their subsequent defeat and subjugation by Muhammad's armies was justified merely on the basis of their unbelief.

    Additional Notes:

    Other than the fact that Muslims haven't killed every non-Muslim under their domain, there is very little else that they can point to as proof that theirs is a peaceful, tolerant religion. Where Islam is dominant (as in the Middle East and Pakistan) religious minorities suffer brutal persecution with little resistance. Where Islam is in the minority (as in Thailand, the Philippines and Europe) there is the threat of violence if Muslim demands are not met. Either situation seems to provide a justification for religious terrorism, which is persistent and endemic to Islamic fundamentalism.

    The reasons are obvious and begin with the Quran. Few verses of Islam's most sacred text can be construed to fit the contemporary virtues of religious tolerance and universal brotherhood. Those that do are earlier "Meccan" verses which are obviously abrogated by later ones. This is why Muslim apologists speak of the "risks" of trying to interpret the Quran without their "assistance" - even while claiming that it is a perfect book.

    Far from being mere history or theological construct, the violent verses of the Quran have played a key role in very real massacre and genocide. This includes the brutal slaughter of tens of millions of Hindus for five centuries beginning around 1000 AD with Mahmud of Ghazni's bloody conquest. Both he and the later Tamerlane (Islam's Genghis Khan) slaughtered an untold number merely for defending their temples from destruction. Buddhism was very nearly wiped off the Indian subcontinent. Judaism and Christianity met the same fate (albeit more slowly) in areas conquered by Muslim armies, including the Middle East, North Africa and parts of Europe, including today's Turkey. Zoroastrianism, the ancient religion of a proud Persian people is despised by Muslims and barely survives in modern Iran.

    So ingrained is violence in the religion that Islam has never really stopped being at war, either with other religions or with itself.

    Muhammad was a military leader, laying siege to towns, massacring the men, raping their women, enslaving their children, and taking the property of others as his own. On several occasions he rejected offers of surrender from the besieged inhabitants and even butchered captives. He actually inspired his followers to battle when they did not feel it was right to fight, promising them slaves and booty if they did and threatening them with Hell if they did not. Muhammad allowed his men to rape traumatized women captured in battle, usually on the very day their husbands and family members were slaughtered.

    It is important to emphasize that, for the most part, Muslim armies waged aggressive campaigns, and the religion's most dramatic military conquests were made by the actual companions of Muhammad in the decades following his death. The early Islamic principle of warfare was that the civilian population of a town was to be destroyed (ie. men executed, women and children taken as slaves) if they defended themselves. Although modern apologists often claim that Muslims are only supposed to attack in self-defense, this is an oxymoron that is flatly contradicted by the accounts of Islamic historians and others that go back to the time of Muhammad.

    Consider the example of the Qurayza Jews, who were completely obliterated only five years after Muhammad arrived in Medina. Their leader opted to stay neutral when their town was besieged by a Meccan army that was sent to take revenge for Muhammad's deadly caravan raids. The tribe killed no one from either side and even surrendered peacefully to Muhammad after the Meccans had been turned back. Yet the prophet of Islam had every male member of the Qurayza beheaded, and every woman and child enslaved, even raping one of the captives himself (what Muslim apologists might refer to as "same day marriage").

    One of Islam's most revered modern scholars, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, openly sanctions offensive Jihad: "In the Jihad which you are seeking, you look for the enemy and invade him. This type of Jihad takes place only when the Islamic state is invading other [countries] in order to spread the word of Islam and to remove obstacles standing in its way." Elsewhere, he notes: "Islam has the right to take the initiative…this is God’s religion and it is for the whole world. It has the right to destroy all obstacles in the form of institutions and traditions … it attacks institutions and traditions to release human beings from their poisonous influences, which distort human nature and curtail human freedom. Those who say that Islamic Jihad was merely for the defense of the 'homeland of Islam' diminish the greatness of the Islamic way of life."

    The widely respected Dictionary of Islam defines Jihad as "A religious war with those who are unbelievers in the mission of Muhammad. It is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Qur'an and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined specially for the purpose of advancing Islam and of repelling evil from Muslims…[Quoting from the Hanafi school, Hedaya, 2:140, 141.], "The destruction of the sword is incurred by infidels, although they be not the first aggressors, as appears from various passages in the traditions which are generally received to this effect."

    Muhammad's failure to leave a clear line of succession resulted in perpetual internal war following his death. Those who knew him best first fought to keep remote tribes from leaving Islam and reverting to their preferred religion (the Ridda or 'Apostasy wars'). Then, within the closer community, early Meccan converts battled later ones. Hostility developed between those immigrants who had traveled with Muhammad to Mecca and the Ansar at Medina who had helped them settle in. Finally there was a violent struggle within Muhammad's own family between his favorite wife and favorite daughter - a jagged schism that has left Shias and Sunnis at each others' throats to this day.

    The strangest and most untrue thing that can be said about Islam is that it is a Religion of Peace. If every standard by which the West is judged and condemned (slavery, imperialism, intolerance, misogyny, sexual repression, warfare...) were applied equally to Islam, the verdict would be devastating. Islam never gives up what it conquers, be it religion, culture, language or life. Neither does it make apologies or any real effort at moral progress. It is the least open to dialogue and the most self-absorbed. It is convinced of its own perfection, yet brutally shuns self-examination and represses criticism.

    This is what makes the Quran's verses of violence so dangerous. They are given the weight of divine command. While Muslim terrorists take them as literally as anything else in their holy book, and understand that Islam is incomplete without Jihad, moderates offer little to contradict them - outside of opinion. Indeed, what do they have? Speaking of peace and love may win over the ignorant, but when every twelfth verse of Islam's holiest book either speaks to Allah's hatred for non-Muslims or calls for their death, forced conversion, or subjugation, it's little wonder that sympathy for terrorism runs as deeply as it does in the broader community - even if most Muslims personally prefer not to interpret their religion in this way.

    Although scholars like Ibn Khaldun, one of Islam's most respected philosophers, understood that "the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force", many other Muslims are either unaware or willfully ignorant of the Quran's near absence of verses that preach universal non-violence. Their understanding of Islam comes from what they are taught by others. In the West, it is typical for believers to think that their religion must be like Christianity - preaching the New Testament virtues of peace, love, and tolerance - because Muslims are taught that Islam is supposed to be superior in every way. They are somewhat surprised and embarrassed to learn that the evidence of the Quran and the bloody history of Islam are very much in contradiction to this.

    Others simply accept the violence. In 1991, a Palestinian couple in America was convicted of stabbing their daughter to death for being too Westernized. A family friend came to their defense, excoriating the jury for not understanding the "culture", claiming that the father was merely following "the religion" and saying that the couple had to "discipline their daughter or lose respect." (source). In 2011, unrepentant Palestinian terrorists, responsible for the brutal murders of civilians, women and children explicitly in the name of Allah were treated to a luxurious "holy pilgrimage" to Mecca by the Saudi king - without a single Muslim voice raised in protest.

    For their part, Western liberals would do well not to sacrifice critical thinking to the god of political correctness, or look for reasons to bring other religion down to the level of Islam merely to avoid the existential truth that this it is both different and dangerous.

    There are just too many Muslims who take the Quran literally... and too many others who couldn't care less about the violence done in the name of Islam.

    TheReligionofPeace.com Home Page

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