TandooriSingh

Sorry but you're totally WRONG on the Punjabi matter. Fact is if Sikhi WASN'T from Punjab, it would probably have been eaten alive by Muslims just like Buddhism has been in India (where Buddhism was born and at one point the official religion). Hindus only survived centuries of horror because of their massive population, which Sikhs have never had. So WHY were we able to survive and win out with such modest numbers? It's because Sikhs are Punjabi and inherited all of the ALREADY EXISTING strength Punjab had to offer. Guru Hargobind was trained in that Punjabi warrior culture and was a skilled martial artist (Shastarvidya) and hunter, and he mandated that Sikhs follow his example, arm themselves and always be prepared to fight. This in turn gave even more reasons to inspire warrior tribes like Jats, Rajputs and Shaivites to join Sikhi if they hadn't already. There is a REASON most Sikhs are Jat, and why they have always been the backbone of Sikh/Indian armies. Some people are inspired by spirituality, some people by the high moral code, some people by the arts (which Sikhi promotes more than any other faith), some people by independance (freedom from Islamic oppressors), and some people by the martial traditions. There is something for EVERYONE in Sikhi. Jats have never been very spiritual people (I mean look at us ) and never got on well with Brahmins, but they were incredibly impressed by martial traditions. For them Sikhi became too good a deal to pass up. You HAD to be a Sikh to be a well respected fighter, it was the COOL thing to do. Sikhs have forgotten how incredibly important the cool factor was for Sikhi to grow like it did. If you don't FORCE people to join you (like Islam), or lie to them (again, Islam), the only think left to convince them is by being something so cool they are inspired to be part of it. Sikhi absorbed and rebranded the existing warrior culture, learned the ancient techniques of Shastarvidya and combat strategy. Now in the modern day Sikhs are the ONLY ones carrying on that martial heritage of North India, it practically belongs to us. =================================================================================================== What you need to understand is... Sikhs by our VERY NATURE are quite hippy. Our values are as fair, liberal conservative and secular as they come (which we should be proud of). The fact that we have such high moral standards is NOT simply because morality and the importance of marriage (unlike in atheism) is encoded into Sikhi, it's ALSO because we come from a Patriarchal Punjabi culture that EXPECTS men to be men and women to be women. Remember that women in Punjab even now DO NOT drink, and would never be expected to. Punjab still has that incredibly macho and rural culture, and the women don't behave anything like supposedly 'liberated' women here do. Now am I saying Punjabi culture is perfect? Hell no, far from it. Punjab is plagued with problems, most of which have been forced on it. I'm saying there needs to be a balance. Sikhi WITHOUT Punjabi = Hippy. Punjabi WITHOUT Sikhi = Jock. Sikhi PLUS Punjabi = Khalsa. =================================================================================================== Punjabi culture has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH MUSLIMS. It's been there since ancient times. Sikhs didn't suddenly pop up out of the ground, our ancestors were mostly Hindu and CHOSE to become Sikhs to free themselves from the corrupted mess that is Hinduism (corrupted due to the passing of time, repeated Muslim invasions and retarded Brahmin control and casteism), the idol worship of illogical Hindu Gods which obviously don't exist, and of course their Islamic oppressors at the time destroying their ancient culture. Sikhs even NOW visit Hindu Mandir's to preserve that part of their history, if only just for fun. Just because we left Hinduism behind doesn't mean it should be forgotten. Sikhs even NOW pay respect to village shrines called 'Juggah', which honour the ancestor who created the village. This is part of the Punjabi Folk Religion. This is stuff Sikhs do in Punjab as we speak, I know my family does. Personally I found it all INCREDIBLY confusing in my younger years going there on holiday since it was just NORMAL for them and nothing was ever explained. What else points to Punjabi culture having nothing to do with Muslims? Well. Punjabi is not an officially recognised language in Pakistan and they're trying to phase it out. Why? It's because they consider it to be the language of the Sikhs. They'd like to pretend they were never ruled by Sikhs, descended from kaffir's themselves, and that they're just like their Arab masters. They are attempting to destroy their history and adopt Urdu (their halfway point between Middle Eastern and Indian languages) and generic ISLAMIC CULTURE. Hell even Hindu's consider it to be the language of the Sikhs. That's why around the time of the Punjabi Suba, Punjabi Hindu's were goaded into supporting Hindu Nationalism and Hindi, a language they could barely speak. Punjab was then lazily divided and whole Punjabi speaking Hindu populations were totally cut off from their homeland. Punjabi music is almost ENTIRELY dominated by Sikhs. What would all the stupid 'Asian' radio stations play if not for us aside from Bollywood tunes? Bhangra is a double edged sword, on the one hand it is the MAIN preserver of Punjabi culture in the UK. On the other hand it also unfortunately imitates modern music and comes with its share of crappy party songs that celebrate crappy morals (not all, most Bhangra songs are all about pride). Are we stronger thanks to Bhangra? Definitely, it gives us a banner to unite under. What ELSE can we really say we've really allowed ourselves to excel at? Kabaddi? Sure we own that but that's not a bigtime sport yet. Sikhs would be doing a LOT better in others sports like boxing if we just supported all the RIDICULOUS amounts of talent our people have. We're so outnumbered, we've always punched above our weight, and yet we STILL can't be bothered to support each other. Pathetic. Think about this... The SECOND the Muslims have a single person to rally behind, they are instantly throwing money at them. The first British Asian Boxing Champion was Harry Dhami, and yet he doesn't even have a WIKIPEDIA PAGE. On the other hand everyone knows who Amir Khan is... Not to mention Muslims do this with EVERYTHING, they even have sites dedicated to listing crappy Halal shops. The only films in Punjabi that get any attention are those made by Sikhs, and the industry in Punjab is starting to explode now which is a great thing for us. We need to separate ourselves from Bollywood which has never represented us. The Bollywood 'love story' is a giant sack of crap. And of course Punjabi was the language of our Sikh Guru's, so for US it cannot be replaced. Fact of the matter is, Sikhs have had an overwhelmingly bigger impact on the Punjabi identity worldwide than Muslims, especially after partition. The difference in population between Indian Punjab and Pakistani Punjab is totally IRRELEVANT, eventually NOBODY in Pakistani Punjab will be left who can even speak Punjabi, only Urdu. Personally I think this is great. Sikhs didn't ASK to be the ones associated with Punjabi, but fate has ensured we are. Now we should be working hard to OWN Punjabi culture completely, that's thousands of years of history that belongs ONLY to us. =================================================================================================== What am I ultimately getting at here? Sikhs (being inherently liberal) have integrated FAR too well, we've become a bunch of coconuts and adopted the many weaknesses of the white people and this 'modern' culture. Western culture has now become SO overwhelmingly atheist (the church becoming less and less culturally relevant), feminist pandering, politically correct and blindly liberal almost socialist, that it's come to the point where society has no backbone, little moral fibre, and no actual value when it comes to marriage. The old culture of Britain is being WIPED out right in front of the white populations eyes and there's nothing they feel they can do about it, they're incredibly downtrodden. Look at how the overwhelmingly white population (90%) of the UK stood back for over a decade and did nothing as their children were being destroyed in plain sight. The police didn't care, the councils didn't care. There are plenty of chavs out there carrying knives, but they didn't care either. I love white people I really do, but the facts are just damning. Our Punjabi boys (most of them likely mona) on the other hand risk their future to assault that crappy little restaurant. No matter WHAT the police say, they got the right place, they wrecked the right shop, and they stabbed one of the guys involved (who eventually went to jail). We ALL know they did the right thing, and most of the internet knows it too. You know what they've called that shop now? It used to be the Moghul Darbar. NOW it's been reopened as the 'Desi Dera'! HAHAHAHA Like some kinda screwed up peace offering. Still Halal of course... WHAT would have happened if those Sikhs just did a peaceful protest about it instead? NOTHING that's what. The Punjabi way worked. Shere Punjab and all the Seva they did worked. If the Sikh community just ACCEPTED our vigilante nature and didn't marginalize the very people trying to wake them up and solve their problems as troublemakers, well we wouldn't be talking about this crap EVEN NOW would we? We COULD have Shere Punjab on standby in every major city by now like the Sikh Misls back in the old days, but we don't. It's high time to STOP blaming the girls. None of this is their fault, almost all of it is totally avoidable. It is the older generation and the Gurdwara's that have TOTALLY failed us. Western Sikhs are taught absolutely NOTHING about Sikhi at the Gurdwara, and learning Gurmukhi at 'Punjabi School' doesn't achieve anything. Not only that, but ANY solutions of any kind by the younger generation have been soundly rejected by the Gurdwara's. Arguments turn into fights and the police get called in. Our education systems are so bad that's it's almost LITERALLY the case that it's only kids from Amritdhari families that are taught and have any real familiarity with Sikhi. The rest of us can't even name our 10 Guru's nevermind what order they come in. It's a COMPLETELY different world we live in. Going to Gurdwara has become a ritual, the idea of actually partaking like getting on the stage and singing some Gurbani (supposed to be open to all Sikhs) is some wierd alien concept, and the truth is the Gurdwara probably wouldn't allow it anyway... How can a child ever be expected to learn about and love Sikhi, Punjab and their history by themselves? Aside from researching obscure boring websites that haven't been updated for a decade? This is why Basics of Sikhi is like the best thing to happen to the panth for a longass time. If our children aren't taught OUR culture/history (both Sikhi and Punjabi) they are disarmed, gullible and weak with no frame of reference and will just latch onto whatever culture they are exposed to be it acting like they're White or even 'Urban Youth'. Punjabi culture through Bhangra has at least been SOMEWHAT able to step in and fill in the gaping ignorance. Kids don't even know that Islam was an INVADING force in India, simply knowing that tiny bit of context alone kinda changes EVERYTHING. Do you expect the schools to teach this stuff? Good luck!!! We sometimes get Sikhs from Canada on this forum wondering what the hell is wrong with us in the UK, how is child grooming even a REAL THING here? They wonder if it's something that's coming their way once the Muslim population grows. Surrey is basically mini-Punjab, moreso than Southall. The Punjabi culture is ridiculously strong over there because of all the immigration. Frankly Canadian Sikhs are nutty, they were stupid enough to blow up a plane once after all... They've had guys like Bindy Johal in the limelight. We have spineless idiots like Param Singh. Bindy Johal was a goddamn criminal, but you can respect the fact that he would never have allowed this grooming crap to happen for a second, he would have had them all executed. If they STAY Punjabi in Canada, then honestly they probably don't have much to worry about... What we need to do is to throw away this ridiculous Western attitude that has crept into and rotted our panth, it's done us NO favours. We need to embrace Punjabi JOR, not undermine it. NO more of this 'brown unity' and 'Asian' crap either, which is only ever used against us. Muslims will ALWAYS act like Muslims, Islamic culture DEMANDS UNIFORMITY. Why can't we behave like Sikhs? Not Westerners. Not Pacifists. But actual Punjabi Sikhs. A Khalsa that is NOT WILLING to fight, kill and die... is no Khalsa at all. Sikhs in the past endured such crazy amounts of pain and came out on top, and now here we are... paralyzed over some pathetic bottom feeding child rapists? Muslims should FEAR Sikhs, because any evil against us will be met with nothing but bloody brutality. Filthy cowards only do things when they think they can get away with it. Police should FEAR Sikhs, because we don't care about their arbritary laws and their 'community cohesion', and we'd leave groomers dead in the streets for them to clean up (burying things under the rug and tidying is all the police seem to be good for...). Singh means LION right? Well... lions have never lived in Britain. They lived in Punjab.

45. Putaree da dhan bikh jananaa| Realize that considering a daughter as property is as poison. For Sikhs it's pretty damn simple. A person will marry when they feel they are GOOD AND READY. You do NOT have the right to decide your childrens lives for them. We have a culture where we arrange marriages and where the potential bride and groom and their families get to know each other, but the man and woman ultimately make the FINAL DECISION. They don't HAVE to get married if don't like each other. A loveless marriage is a prison, and there's a much higher chance of things going terribly wrong. A woman (emphasis on WOMAN) can DECIDE when she wants a husband and life partner, and generally speaking that search is going to start in her late teens and early adulthood. There doesn't need to be a specific age given because a WELL REASONED PERSONAL DECISION can't simply be given a number. Some women may NEVER want to get married and NEVER want to have sex. This was also how things worked in Vedic times, before India became corrupted by Brahmin controlled Hinduism and outside repression (Muslims), this brought us disgraceful disrespect of women, and rubbish like Child Marriage, Dowry, Female Infanticide and Purdah. Sikhism is about FREEDOM. Always has been, always will be. It's in the name. Sikh means 'student', a person who is forever learning and SEEKING their own path to become worthy of Gods grace. Islam means 'submission'. You become a slave to Allah's will and a slave to the Sharia. You must FOLLOW Muhammad to the letter or risk damnation. With regards to Aisha... A 6 year old child CANNOT choose to marry a 51 year old man. A child CANNOT choose to allow a nasty wrinkly old Arab man to dry hump her. A 9 year old who plays with dolls and swings CANNOT choose to have sex with such a pervert. Aisha was given no choice, she was simply sold and she suffered for it. She most likely had the figure of a little boy too . Muhammad was a PEDOPHILE... plain and simple. If you do not accept this you are simply in denial. NOWHERE is this disgusting behaviour with a 6-9 year old acceptable except in Islam. Why any Sikh would waste their time with that retard propaganda site is beyond me. Sikhism and islam can NEVER be favourably compared, we are polar opposites and can only ever be CONTRASTED. ------------------------------------------------------ Also, since people brought it up.... There is NO evidence that Guru Hargobind had more than one wife. ANYBODY can say he did, but where is the evidence? Why are those who say he did complete unknowns? How are they reputable? There IS evidence for Guru Gobinds had '3 wives' so to speak because of the physical tombs dotted around India. There are two theories... Theory A: Mata Jito was Guru Gobind Singhs first wife. She changed her name to Mata Sundari. Name changing like this was an incredibly easy and common practice. Mata Sahib Kaur was Guru Gobinds second wife, and in name only. Guru Gobind accepted her and her family to save them from suffering the humiliation of rejection. She was named 'Mother of the Khalsa' and was the first baptized Sikh woman. She then dedicated her life to Seva and celibacy. Theory B: Mata Jito was Guru Gobind Singhs first wife. She was unable to give him any children. He had no choice other than to marry again. Mata Sundari was Guru Gobinds second wife. She gave him his children. Mata Sahib Kaur was Guru Gobinds third wife, and in name only. Guru Gobind accepted her and her family to save them from suffering the humiliation of rejection. She was named 'Mother of the Khalsa' and was the first baptized Sikh woman. She then dedicated her life to Seva and celibacy. There are other theories... Such as them not being 'wives' at all and simply being followers. Or the idea of multiple wives being positive proganda to make Guru Gobind seem more like a king. Or it could be negative propaganda made in an attempt to discredit him... in a very weak manner... Simple really.

Damn, I got here too late to read the actual names Fact is. ANY Gurdwara that performs the Anand Karaj ceremony for a non-Sikh is misleading their sangat and insulting the faith. A non-Sikh CANNOT walk around the Guru Granth Sahib and proclaim it as the centre of their universe. To suggest they can is a LIE, a JOKE and PAKHAND. Not to mention it goes against the Rehat Maryada, our code of conduct. It's a free country, Sikh guys and girls can do whatever the hell they want, but you DO NOT force your personal wishes on Sikhism. It came long before you, and it will exist long after you are dead. If you truly love Sikhism, then you will accept it for what it is. You can either follow it perfectly, follow it as best you can and hope your good actions make up for your inadequacies, or NOT follow it at all. It's just that simple. If you're with a non-Sikh, you can either educate them and get them to convert, or forget about having that beautiful Anand Karaj of your dreams. Sikhism doesn't owe you a perfect wedding if you can't give anything back. If someone converts and then converts BACK to whatever they were originally, then you'll know you married a scumbag. Chances are the Sikh marrying the non-Sikh was never a good Sikh in the first place. The children will likely not be taught Sikhism. It would be stupid of a Gurdwara to celebrate this event. To stop this kind of thing happening in future? First, we ACTUALLY teach our kids our Sikh religion and our powerful Sikh/Punjabi history and culture, give them the protective pride they DESERVE to have. This will keep them in the fold. Going to the Gurdwara every once in a while is not enough. Second, assuming there was no foul play involved, then it's also the fault of Sikh guys for not being superior and not getting to this particular girl first. To the Sikhs who are aware of this event and want to do something about it... Grab a bunch of people, roll up to the Gurdwara, make them feel uneasy and create as big a noise as possible to ruin their wedding videos forever. If they don't respect Sikhism, then why should anyone respect their 'big day'? Don't do anything stupid and get in any trouble, and don't get angry. Just stage a protest and cause a bit of mischief. Try singing over the ceremony or something. Troll the living crap out of them.

After North India enduring 1000's of years of horrible confict with Muslims, we would be ABSOLUTELY INSANE to ever let Islam get even the tiniest foothold back in our Punjab. The British before running away at least had the decency to shift most of the Muslims out of Sikh/Hindu territory, the one 'GIFT' they ever actually gave us (paid for with millions of lives), and we're just going to throw it all away? Ridiculous. The ONLY thing Muslims should be given by Indian Punjab is assistance in settling SOMEWHERE ELSE. Muslims have their own damn country across the border... it's called Pakistan, they can go live and build their Mosques and Halal chicken shops over THERE. It's not like in the UK where there are millions of Muslims and we HAVE to accept the fact that Muslims will always exist there, thus we must approach the situation in a secular manner. Muslims in East Punjab on the other hand are a pathetically small number and controllable. If Badal is indeed APPEASING Muslims to try to get the Muslim block vote (like Labour in the UK), then he needs to go. It's pathetic that we have a 60% majority in Punjab and yet we can't get half decent Sikh based initiatives in place. --------------------------------------- No matter what, Punjab will ALWAYS be the Sikh homeland and base of operations, and frankly... our base is a TOTAL MESS. I mean sure... MOST of the world is a mess, but that doesn't excuse Punjab. A weak base makes Sikhs look weak. If we cannot raise ourselves, we cannot raise anyone else. We need to regroup and pool our strengths. After that we can do as much charity and Parchar across the world as we want. And so... We need to get all (willing) Sikhs out of problem areas and increase our majority in Punjab.There are TONS of Afghan Sikhs who left for the UK for example. There are likely many more Sikhs in Afghanistan/Pakistan/other parts of India or wherever else who simply WISH they had the power to leave. Poverty stricken Sikhs outside of Punjab CANNOT be expected to teach about Sikhi as they can barely survive. There's NO reason for them not to be in Punjab. We NEED to reach out to them for the good of everyone involved. There are also wealthy Sikhs who have already made their fortune and want to build homes and settle back in Punjab. I personally know people doing this. We should make this VERY easy as these people are an invaluable asset. Punjab NEEDS renewable energy. The sunshine is one thing we won't ever run out of in Punjab, so having solar panels (which are expensive) mounted everywhere is the future. We can't trust the Indian government to sort out those crippling power cuts, and without power businesses can't flourish, and the economy will FOREVER be repressed. Punjab needs more energy, more businesses, more education and more jobs. The sheer potential of the farmland is being wasted by backwards management too. Money makes the world go round, and the more money we have the more political power we have. The Focus Punjab program from Khalsa Aid sounds PERFECT frankly, I quite liked how he said he didn't care if people were 'offended' that they were only going to sponsor and help Sikh families. THAT is the kind of strong resolve we need and have needed for a long time. I seriously hope they stick to it. The fact that Sikhs are even in poverty and so damn repressed in the first place, in what is meant to be the Sikh homeland... THAT is a horrible state of affairs, and sorting it should be our number one priority. If they were all healthy and wealthy, imagine all the good Sikhs could do in the world. This initiative is definitely something I'd support, and massive respect to Tigerstyle for wanting to make a difference. Musicians that aren't so goddamn wrapped up in their own ego and want to do something for their people. ------------------------------------------ Let's be realistic here. It's takes governmental power to crack down on issues as bad as the Drugs Trafficking from Muslim countries, power cuts and such. Sikhs in Punjab have to vote, protest and be politically savvy to get the job done. These are things you need to physically live there to be involved in. What we Sikhs in the West CAN DO is actually pass onto them our wealth, our control of media and our skills and knowledge. The whole POINT of leaving in the first place was to send money back home. Although all that's happened in reality is Sikhs have just kept our success to ourselves and Punjab has been left way behind to fend for itself and suffer. It's high time to use what we have to empower our people back home, and we don't need anyones PERMISSION or government involvement to do it. We can help Punjab transform into a powerhouse. The greatest state in India, and then maybe it's own nation beyond that. The process of development so far has been FAR too slow, and too many have stood in the way. Kinda like the few fools on the forums with their constant retarded 'Duh we should respect Islam and not tell people what it ACTUALLY says'...YOU people are holding Sikhi and its message back, and allowing Islam to propagate. ------------------------------------ And finally. Sikhs always call for Khalistan, but have NO plans on how to create it. I hate to say it but even getting CLOSE to that is nothing but a fantasy and will be for a very long time, we aren't yet anywhere near competent enough. Not to mention... India will never EVER want to give Punjab up (it's the main source of Indian history, food production, culture, military and more), and understandably fearful Punjabi Hindu's don't want to live in a place called Khalistan... just like we don't accept the term 'Hindustan'. An Independant Punjab however? With Sikhs AND Hindu's united in their shared culture and mutual disgust of the pathetic Indian government? THAT is possible! A Punjab that can actually make use of its endless native wealth and develop itself. A Punjab that inherits an army of native soldiers which is LARGER than the British Army. A Punjab that can END the power cuts, police our own borders and END the flow of drugs and illegal immigrants poisoning our land. A Punjab that can take to the world stage and actually help humanity. A Punjab free from Indian rape culture, Indian corruption, Indian starvation and poverty, Indian stereotypes and the rest of its many PR disasters. A country of Lions, not Apu from The Simpsons. A self sustaining Punjab IS possible, the infrastructure is practically all there. Convincing Hindu's would simply be a matter of showing them how successful we would be WITHOUT Delhi holding us back.

What the HELL is wrong with you? Her parents threatened to throw her out when she was likely 15, their relationship broke down. She had no support structure. How could she feel facing that? She tried but couldn't get a job. It's hard enough for university graduates with actual qualifications, nevermind a child. She couldn't get any help from social services. She was self-harming and suffered depression. Prostituting herself and saving money so she could leave home was the ONLY option this girl thought she had. Do you HONESTLY think she sold herself for 20 freaking quid (almost nothing) at a time for FUN? With these disgusting sullahs? Would ANY female find the idea of even looking at these losers remotely FUN? The girl was FREAKING 16. Do you have any idea how powerless someone is at that age? How was she meant to survive in this day and age? You want to blame someone? First... How about you blame the scum of the earth that saw a messed up child as a GOOD GROOMING OPPORTUNITY as opposed to someone who deserved help? Second... How about you blame the stupid parents that threatened to throw their CHILD out on the street, let it get so bad and started this problem in the first place? Third... How about you blame all the various support structures for totally ignoring her? ONE PERSON giving a crap could have probably prevented this. AND THEN SURE... You can blame the girl for stupidly walking into this ridiculous mess. Desperate people do desperate things, do you honestly think she knew how far this would go? Don't give us that shaming crap, it's almost IRRELEVANT in this case. This girl has never been clubbing in her entire life most likely since she's too young to even get in one. It's terribly sad we have TOTAL SELLOUTS like you in our community. Protecting the most despicable people in society and shifting the blame onto the victim who had little control over her own destiny. Hahahaha! A vote WASTED is it? The only vote wasted would be voting for those who DON'T have our interests in mind, or not voting at all. How many people (especially Sikhs) were killed and injured fighting in World Wars just so that we could vote in this country? UKIP have made GREAT strides and took around a quarter of the vote ACROSS THE COUNTRY in the recent elections. You better believe the momentum is going to keep on building as MORE people realise just how much of a mess this country has become. Given that anything you say seems to be retarded and totally backwards... THAT MEANS THE MOST LOGICAL COURSE OF ACTION IS FOR ALL SIKHS TO VOTE ONLY UKIP! Nigel Farage makes it quite clear he wants to put Islam in its rightful place. I think we should help him. Vote for YOURSELF and the welfare of our Sikh community. Vote UKIP. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Basic advice. Don't EVER let any female member of your family EVER feel isolated or feel that her family can't solve her problems better than anyone else. YOU could be that difference. YOU must push yourself to be superior to anyone she may have even the most basic contact with. YOU must be the measure by which they define success. ASSERTION people. This whole situation fills me with UNPARALLELED DISGUST. It was ridiculously preventable. The father of the girl was apparently a university professor and if true likely had a great paycheck, and here you have his daughter... a child driven to selling her body for around the price of a Large Pizza... Freaking terrible.

I'm glad you agree Guru Tegh Bahadur didn't give his life for something so stupid as Political Correctness. He didn't care about stroking Hinduisms ego, just its right to exist. Who is taking away a Muslims freedom of religion ASIDE from Muslims themselves? Nobody and definitely not the EDL. It's Islam that wants apostates to be KILLED remember? Bukhari (52:260): "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " Muslims can be Muslims, but Sharia Law CANNOT co-exist with the rest of the world it's just that simple. If they want Sharia Law they should go live in a Muslim country. The very same Muslim countries incidentally treating religious minorities (like Sikhs in Pakistan and Afghanistan) like crap. Equal Rights would be BRILLIANT! Too bad Muslims aren't happy with JUST that and want to force their ways on everyone else. One law for them and one for everyone else. Whether it be the implementation of Sharia, or the police and government just being too AFRAID to tackle Muslim crimes. This is exactly why issues such as grooming have been allowed to occur for so long and run rampant. Police knew plenty but didn't act because they were just afraid of being labelled racist. You HAVE? Wow, I commend you because that's more than 99% of Muslims are capable of it seems! Do you want to know what Koran I mostly use? It's FREE after all. http://quran.com/ There you have the ORIGINAL Arabic text, and you have 6 of the MOST POPULAR AND RESPECTED English translations, all of which say the EXACT SAME THINGS. There's nothing extreme about them, THIS is the Koran that ALMOST ALL Muslims follow whether you like it or not. Do you have BETTER translations of the Koran? Feel free to share with the world. The Hadith are the same, there are various translations but all of them say EXACTLY THE SAME THING. Do you know what Allah says about CONTEXT? It doesn't matter because the Koran is 'perfect'. 11:1: Book is clear and free from imperfection. It is explained in detail. Alif-Lam-Ra. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Quran and none but Allah (Alone) knows their meanings]. (This is) a Book, the Verses whereof are perfected (in every sphere of knowledge, etc.), and then explained in detail from One (Allah), Who is All-Wise and Well-Acquainted (with all things). 9:29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Please tell me what possible CONTEXT is there for this other than what it actually says? Note that there are HUNDREDS of offending quotes, this is just one. The idea of having to be able to read Arabic to understand the Koran is also preposterous. What percentage of the 1.5+ billion Muslims in the world can ACTUALLY read Arabic? The answer is not very high. Even Muslims who were taught to recite the Koran in Arabic in Madrassas generally have NO idea what any of it even means. How RIDICULOUS would it be if you HAD to be able to read Arabic in order to 'understand' the Koran? What does that say about the majority of Muslims who don't know any Arabic? There are many sects of Islam, and they pretty much all hate and consider each other heretics. To the vast majority of Muslims Sufism isn't even Islam. Most of the Muslims in the UK are Pakistani Sunni (Orthodox) Muslims and follow the EXACT translations I have shown you. I already said, the ONLY distinction between a 'moderate' and a 'radical' Muslim is simply how CLOSE they are following the Koran to the very letter. Osama Bin Laden was a VERY good Muslim for example! I'm sure many 'moderate' Western Muslims are HORRIFIED by what they actually know about the Koran. I'm sorry my friend but you do not even know the half of it, even child grooming can be justified in the Koran alone. The Guru's rejected ALL FORMS of ritual slaughter. This would include Muslim Halal, Jewish Kosher, and rituals that were performed by certain Hindu sects at the time. It's not about being 'anti-religion', it's about not agreeing with clearly ridiculous and BARBARIC practices. Have you actually seen Halal slaughter taking place? It's disgusting. Look it up on Youtube. No, Sikhs are ALLOWED to eat meat and it is considered purely a personal choice, our Guru's ate meat and were skilled hunters don't forget. Sikh warriors taking shelter in the forests, hills and jungles during times of war couldn't possibly sustain themselves without meat. Kutha Meat is strictly forbidden. The meat Sikhs eat must be 'Jhatka' which means INSTANT KILL, the animal should have to endure the LEAST amount of suffering possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhatka You can believe what you want, but the truth is absolute and won't change. I am TOTALLY AGAINST any misrepresentation of our faith. Others have argued this point for me, all I can say for now is that there seems to be more evidence AGAINST the idea that Guru Hargobind built a Mosque than FOR it. Where is the evidence that the Azaan was banned only in SOME areas of the Sikh Empire? Honestly crazy preachers really don't need to try all that hard to reach their audience unfortunately... Any evidence for Sikhs even being CLOSE to intolerant rulers to Muslims is incredibly weak, and the sources are hard to trace. Simply banning the Azaan would not make it so anyway, that's just called COMMON SENSE! I actually HOPE they did universally ban the Azaan. It shouldn't exist, it's simply annoying to anyone who isn't Muslim. Imagine if Gurdwara's started blasting out our ideology (nevermind calls to war) on loudspeakers? Or any other religion did? HOW would Muslims react to that? I doubt they would appreciate it, they'd hit the streets in seconds! Either EVERYONE should have their own 'Azaan' or nobody should have one. That is how equal rights works. Again, you're stating that the EDL want Muslims to simply DISAPPEAR. This is false and there is NO evidence of this. Muslims have been part of EDL protests, and the EDL leadership has stated time and again they are against the ideology, encroaching Sharia Law and the Political Correctness that protects Islam, NOT individual Muslims. Muslims themselves are actually the first victims of Islam. How is this anything but logical? Don’t you think Muslims paedophiles should be sent to jail JUST as quickly as any other? Fact of the matter is Muslims aren't going anywhere and they won't change Islam. This is EXACTLY why pressing issues need to be sorted out NOW. I already mentioned that one of the men who were arrested was of a Hindu background, but going by the names released its possible there were two. Names can be deceiving but I'll go with it anyway. Rotten filth comes in all forms. http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Child-exploitation-case-ndash-court/story-18100272-detail/story.html#axzz2aCbGeuFv Fact is MOST of the names here are Muslim names, and the shop that was ransacked by Sikhs was Muslim owned. The VAST MAJORITY of street based grooming in the UK and beyond is committed by Muslims. Muslims were CLEARLY at the heart of this grooming ‘gang’. I don’t like using the term ‘gang’ because that gives the illusion that these losers are to be feared. What do the few Hindu names among them prove? All it proves is the fact that we can’t trust Hindu’s to sell out both THEMSELVES and of course US to these sick idiots. Some Hindu’s are willing to side with these guys, or give them money to get time with their ‘girls’. You’re forgetting Hindu’s have suffered WAY more than Sikhs when it comes to any of the problems Muslims have caused historically and today. The Sikh population worldwide is just over 30 million, and there are billions of Hindu’s. There are well over twice as many Hindu’s in the UK than Sikhs. How many grooming victims do you think Hindu’s have racked up? It’s about as disgraceful as it gets if a Hindu is involved is this crap. You’ve just proved my point really. It seems like its only White people that haven’t targeted the Sikh community, which just gives us MORE reason to side with the EDL! ================================================ Hahahaha! Oh believe me EVERYTHING is permissible in Islam; you can justify almost ANYTHING if you did it according to Allah’s will. 65:4: It is okay to have sex with Prepubescent girls And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease. 4:3: You can have 4 wives and unlimited concubines/slaves ‘that your right hand possess’. And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan-girls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice. 4:24: Forbidden from sex with a married Muslim women, but you can have sex with female captives and slaves. Also allows prostitution with ‘Temporary Marriage’. Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise. 4:28: Men cannot control themselves. Allah wishes to lighten (the burden) for you; and man was created weak (cannot be patient to leave sexual intercourse with woman). 2:282: A woman is worth half that of a man. O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things. 98:6: Jews and Christians are unbelievers being the worst of creatures who will burn in hell Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures. PLEASE tell me what the context is for any of this? Or are you simply lying about having read the Koran? I don’t see how you can miss any of this! ================================================ The lip service of Imams and ‘moderate’ Muslims is all at once patronizing, useless and LIES. They really don’t care about any of the crimes Muslims commit against non-Muslims or even against even other Muslims (and they don’t want us to interfere either), all they want to do is not look bad. Muslims will FREELY misrepresent their own faith in order to convince us that it is harmless and further Islam, the Koran allows this. ================================================ I know about the ‘Big Johns’ incident. That was in 2010 and the EDL was a year old. Now it’s 2013, what OTHER attacks on Muslim businesses have those in an EDL protest been involved in? Give me proof that this is a recurring trend and not an isolated incident. I condemn any act of violence on innocent people, but you can’t seriously tell me that cracking some windows and scaring some people in a crappy chicken shop is in the same LEAGUE as rape? Or actual terrorism? Sikhs ransacked the shop in Leicester early THIS YEAR, because Muslim groomers exist THIS YEAR. A soldier was murdered in London and bomb plots were foiled THIS YEAR. These crimes by Muslims are RECURRING trends. Also please tell me who is grooming Muslim girls? Who actually CARES enough to do that? The EDL were born out of the will to combat the rubbish that comes out of the Islamic ideology and Muslims time and again. The problems existed LONG before 2009 I assure you... Meaningful discussion? I WISH! Where exactly were you when we were dealing with PakistaniPunjabi01? The only thing that came out of his keyboard was hilarious propaganda rubbish and childish insults. He was totally INCAPABLE of refuting Koran quotes and engaging in civilized discussions! Eventually he got himself banned. I don’t believe in ‘Black Magic’ or any other superstitious nonsense, and I laugh at anyone who does. Sikhism looks down on superstition as you should know. I ALSO believe that if ‘Black Magic’ DID exist... the very LAST people who would be capable of actually using it would be Muslims. Muslim countries in case you can’t tell are crapholes and they seriously need all the help they can get You think Imam's are ANY use whatsoever? Listen to how Robert Spencer beats this guy down with basic Koran quotes. When confronted with REALITY, Muslims are paralyzed. You’re free to call yourself a ’Liberal Westernized Sikh' (whatever that means, Sikhs have always had Liberal values) if you want. These days being a Liberal means you’re either a Socialist AND/OR will probably bend over for whatever demands come your way. However you have to ask yourself WHAT are you doing to help ensure that tragedy does not befall our Sikh community or ANY community ever again? Whereas I am on this forum spreading truth, what are you spreading? Lies? Confusion? Are you just allowing evil to propagate? Think about that. The EDL are an actual ANSWER to these terrible problems. A perfect answer? No, but it’s better than nothing and can be improved, and it’s definitely better than protecting Muslims with a veil of ignorance and hoping the problems go away as some seem to advocate here. We must tackle the issues head on if we are to succeed.

WRONG. Guru Tegh Bahadur sacrificed himself for peoples RIGHT TO WORSHIP WHATEVER THEY WANTED FREELY. He didn't die just for the sake of Hinduism. Sikhs are not meant to DEFEND anyones sensibilities and feelings, only our own lofty ideals. We believe in Free Speech, Freedom of Religion, equal rights, and defending the innocent from actual harm. Where does it say we aren't allowed to criticize other faiths? Where does it say we should stop people calling out Islam for what it really is? All that matters is we tell the TRUTH, however ugly it may be. In fact our Guru's weren't afraid to criticize and laugh at the illogical nature of other faiths AT ALL! Here are some facts... Islam: The Guru's referred to Halal as 'Kutha' meat. The meat of a dog, because it was considered barbaric. Muslims are mandated to eat Halal meat in the Koran, what does that say for how much our Guru's respect the tenets in the Koran? Guru Nanak slept with his feet towards the Kabba at Mecca to mock how Muslims pray to it. How much do you think he respected Islam? The Sikh Empire banned the 'Azaan' wherever it ruled. The Azaan is the call to prayer which basically blasts out the Shahada (the declaration of faith) over a wide radius, annoying the crap out of anyone who isn't Muslim. The Guru's may have been friends with individual Muslims, and they may even have liked various bits of poetry that fitted their ideals, but that does NOT mean they liked Islam. Hinduism: Cutting off a Durga Idols nose: "During expedition, Guru Gobind Singh reached Kiratpur, which was in the state of Raja Tara Chand in temple of Naina Devi (goddess) where a Sikh Bhairo cut the nose of the Idol of Durga. After complaint of hill kings to Guru Gobind Singh, Singh enquired from the Sikh in front of the kings to which he replied to ask from the goddess who has cut her nose. On this the kings replied that goddess cannot speak. Bhairo laughed and replied, “if the goddess (idol) cannot speak and cannot protect the body then what good you expect from her?” Then the kings were quiet and anger still persists." Not to mention... The Guru's told us to reject all of the many falsehoods that these two religions promoted whether it be fasting, pilgrimages, idol worship, inequality and the caste system, the veiling and mistreatment of woman or just dumb old superstitions. The Guru's thought all these things were either pointless, wrong or downright stupid. Thus, how much respect do you think they had for the principles of these religions? Not much I assure you. http://www.sikhs.org/guru1.htm Guru Nanak himself was quite sarcastic and never afraid to make fun of the ineptitude of others. "When Guru Nanak stopped at Hardwar a pilgrimage center on the Ganges river he found a large gathering of devotees. They were taking ritual baths in the holy river and offering water to the sun. When the Guru asked "Why do you throw water like that?" The pilgrims replied that they were offering it to their ancestors. Guru Nanak upon hearing this started throwing water in the opposite direction towards the west. When the pilgrims asked him what he was doing?. Guru Nanak replied "I am sending water to my farm which is dry". They asked, "How will water reach you crops so far away?". Guru Nanak replied, "If your water can reach your ancestors in the region of the sun, why can't mine reach my fields a short distance away?" The pilgrims realized their folly and fell at the Gurus feet." ---- There is no evidence that Guru Hargobind built a Mosque, this is merely speculation. ---- You LOVE Islam? Hahahaha! Well sorry to break it to you but Islam HATES you. Whether your Muslim friends are true friends or not I can't say, but I'd be wary of Taqiyya and Kitman if I were you, Muslims are ALLOWED to lie to get what they want. Sikhs are not. Have you read the Koran? I have. You REALLY should too. Sura 9:29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Sura 3:28: Do not take unbelievers as friends, unless it’s to find protection. Hide your faith if needed. Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying. ---- The EDL are NOT attacking any Muslims, and NOT smashing up any shops or Mosques. There is NO proof of any of this taking place. They continue to peacefully protest, even when they constantly get bottles thrown at them by the Socialist 'United Against Fascism' group. Tommy Robinson has given normal everyday people a platform to voice their anger, that anger could so EASILY have erupted into violence as it did in the Bradford Riots. You want to talking about smashing up shops? A gang of 40 Sikhs were forced to smash up a small restaurant in Leicester to root out a bunch of grooming pedophile Muslims. They did this because the desperate family who was suffering wasn't getting ANY help from the police so they turned to the community for help. The POLICE and the MEDIA have mostly proven that they aren't on OUR side. They are only interested in preserving 'community cohesion' which means licking Muslim bottoms, because they know that SIKHS won't blow themselves up when they get grumpy. The groomers were arrested STRAIGHT after the attack took place, as the Police couldn't pretend it wasn't happening anymore. It took AGES before the names of the groomers (all of them Muslim, with one Hindu mentioned) were finally released. The use of the term 'ASIAN' constantly smears and insults us, and the Sikhs involved in the attack who got us justice were villified as mere misinformed THUGS. The Police first LIED to our faces, and THEN tried to arrest as many Sikhs as they could afterwards. If the Police just DID THEIR FREAKING JOB, none of this would have happened... Who ELSE is worth siding with moreso than the EDL at this point? Aside from UKIP the political party? ----- Pre-emptive strike? No problem . How about Guru Gobind sending Banda Singh to destroy the Mughal government in Punjab? After he believed that he had been betrayed by the Mughals (in this case Bahadur Shah, whom he believed had allied himself to Wazir Khan and was plotting to attack Sikhs) once again. Now, whether the Bahadur Shah WOULD have betrayed the Sikhs or not, Guru Gobind issued the order regardless as he clearly had had quite enough. But if I DIDN'T have that great example, what difference would it make? It is the actions of certain Muslims, their disgusting aggression and intolerance for our way of life (this is happening around the world remember) that is the ONLY reason people feel the way they do and why groups like the EDL exist. The pre-emptive strike has ALREADY happened, and it was Muslims that fired the first shot. As usual. The EDL didn't just appear out of NOWHERE. They exist to combat a REAL problem. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for the topic... Didn't we ALREADY have this discussion in the Political forum? Yet there are still pagal's on this forum who spew idiocy and bury their heads in the sand, and want to pretend that Sharia Law isn't encroaching and already messing with our way of life, and how the VAST majority of Muslims want Sharia Law in the UK. WHERE IS THE LOGIC in worrying about the chavvy looking white guy across the street, when there's ALREADY some Pakistani nutjob stabbing you in the back? The PROBLEM RIGHT NOW which is ACTUALLY affecting us is Islam. Let us defeat the MAIN problem first. Sikhs have a problem. White people have a problem. We have the SAME exact problem. I'm friends with plenty of white people, and they are either willfully ignorant or TERRIFIED of how the world is changing around them. White people have all but lost their fighting spirit now and we have nothing to fear from them. What's the phrase? "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" The earliest version of that phrase is Indian by the way . The 'Sikhs Against EDL' and 'Turban Campaign' must be stopped, they are protecting Muslims and AGAINST our interests. On the other hand if Sikhs want to join the EDL and take part in peaceful protest then more power to them, a few brown faces would tip the balance and we'll all get what we want. There is only ONE Koran, that is where Sharia Law stems from, and the Hadith of course. 'Radical' Islam and 'Moderate' Islam follow the SAME EXACT principles. The only difference is HOW GOOD OF A MUSLIM DO YOU WANT TO BE? Muslims are free to believe in whatever they want, so long as it doesn't affect anyone else. The problem is that Islam as it stands will never allow peace and it will never change. So... We must chop the balls off Islam once and for all through strong legislation and education. We MUST ensure that Sharia Law, the TRUE nature of Islam stays in the wretched Middle Eastern desert where it rightfully belongs. For the sake of EVERYONES future (Non-Muslim and Muslim) this must happen.

Sikhs need to be forever vigilant, work to pursue our own interests and protect ourselves. No more protecting those who'll stab us in the back. If we can't protect ourselves then how can we possibly do any good in this world? We will always be considered targets as Kaffirs (Kaffirs who knocked Islamic rule out of India no less) and there's no escaping this. Quite simply we can't afford to have our hands tied by political correctness any longer, there have been enough victims. Even one is too much. Fact of the matter is Islam will never allow us or any other faith to co-exist in peace, since it was NEVER designed with such values in mind. If it was capable of that (or anything good for that matter...) we would have surely seen it after 1400 years... We need to be DEFENSIVE AND OFFENSIVE. For DEFENCE... We need to ingrain our Sikh and Punjabi culture in the minds of our people. Most of us don't even know what we are and where we came from. I was EXACTLY the same not so long ago, taught of nothing but historical injustices against Sikhs and never ANY achievements. I was also told not to eat meat on Sundays... which is a silly Hindu practice... How can you take pride in something when you know nothing about it? And all you know is negative and even frustrating? We have an UNMATCHED history through the ages (Look at the ancient Indus Valley Civilization) and NOTHING to feel ashamed of. It's modern day Punjab/India that suffers from crippling, more recently developed problems. For OFFENCE... We must spread knowledge of what Islam TRULY is amongst our own AND the world. It's not slander, it's our duty. Apparently most of the world (including Muslims) can't read their own holy book... How many of our own would suffer if they knew what Islam was about? None. How many White Western women would convert to Islam if they actually READ the Koran and weren't just fed lies on how 'equal' and 'respected' women are in Islam? I'm willing to bet that would stop dead. Once people know the truth, they can make up their own minds and do what they want. There's nothing wrong with having Muslim friends, AS LONG AS you know what teachings they follow and what they're capable of. Sikhs shouldn't be complicit in these lies about Islam being a 'Religion of Peace' any longer. It's an information war, and if we don't play we'll lose. NEVER be afraid to quote the Koran to ANYONE. You have NO idea how that knowledge may help/save that person. Several times I was sent messages from well meaning members of the forum that I should probably expect to be put under quality control or banned, despite the fact that all I was doing was posting quotes straight out of the Muslim sources (which anyone can Google) and news articles. And what happened? Turns out I was absolutely right to refute his lies, our resident Islamist PakistaniPunjabi01 just exploded (pun intended) on everyone and denigrates our faith moreso than any non-Muslim ever could... And yet we have people on this forum saying that it's White people we should be worried about! I'm still here, and PakistaniPunjabi01 got banned. Political correctness gets us nowhere, and he'd probably still be here crapping on us if he went unchallenged. I thank the mods for their great wisdom. We should be proud of exposing the lying loser Sullah for what he really was, someone who clearly harboured ill will for us all along, even if he first restrained himself to being passive aggressive at first and even playing the victim 'Islamophobe' card. The community and the mods on this forum gave him plenty of chances, and he continually chose to answer logical debate by either ignoring peoples posts or claiming victimhood, then spewing insults and eventually blind hate. See how easily he shifted from one to the other? Was he not capable of reading through his posts and holding his resentment back? Good riddance. A Sikh would never get that kind of respect and leeway on a Muslim forum. He can try and claim he has links to a great piece of land called Punjab, but we will never be the same. I do wish his posts weren't deleted though! It would have been good for us to keep a record of his stupidity for posterity . I feel it's appropriate... RAJ KAREGA KHALSA!

You are a joke. Do you even READ what you write? You're contradicting yourself so much it's HILARIOUS. Your BIGGER PICTURE is retarded, I highly doubt you have any imagination to speak of. You are simply beyond PARANOID and providing NO EVIDENCE AS TO YOUR CLAIMS. SHOW ME WHITE BRITISH PEOPLE ABUSING SIKHS. SHOW ME THIS RACISM. SOME BASIC GODDAMN EVIDENCE. HOW MANY TIMES MUST I ASK THIS. If it's THAT obvious, then show it. Surely you can prove it to EVERYONE! Just be honest and ADMIT you have none. Maintain SOME level of dignity. You're JUST as bad as PakistaniPunjabi01 right now do you realise that? Do you think people can't read what you're writing? That they don't see the fact that you're saying you've done something when you HAVEN'T? Madness. Did I claim that Bhai Mohan Singh was an EDL supporter? Why don't YOU prove that he's against them? The point is WHO does he blaming for harming Sikh girls? Here's a hint... IT'S NOT WHITE PEOPLE! Can you see the future? No? Well then why do you KEEP focusing on that and not have ANY solutions to current problems? What do you have to say to those suffering TODAY? INSTILLING STRONG FAMILY VALUES. Wow... GENIOUS. We just need to hug each other more! WHO are you to generalize about how close knit Sikh families are? I think you'll find that 'closeness' has never been the problem. When is your dumb plan meant to start working? In 100 years? That is NOT a solution, that is nothing but a pathetic excuse to pass on the problem and do NOTHING. You seek to betray the next generation. Why are you blaming the Sikh community for its supposed faults when it is OTHERS who have targeted us? Why blame the victims? The Sikh spirit of old was NOT do nothing, it was to adapt and SURVIVE. If you knew anything about Sikhs then you'd know that to make the best of their situation they worked/fought INTELLIGENTLY and OPPORTUNISTICALLY. The EDL is here, the EDL is a solution to a current problem. Better than YOU who has no solution. 'Right Wing' and 'Far Right' refers to political stance you ignorant. The EDL is a protest group unconnected to the political spectrum. How can they be 'Right Wing' when their WHOLE REASON to exist is to ensure universal fair rights for all regardless of background? If you don't understand politics, then don't TALK about it and make yourself look silly. Show me evidence of our ancestors acting like crazed Chimpanzees when someone insulted Sikhism with just words? OH WAIT, THERE IS NONE! THE GURU'S AND SIKHS ENDURED TONS OF INSULTS AND GREAT PAINS AND YET STILL REMAINED PURELY LOGICAL. Guru Gobind himself despite all he had lost helped secure the Mughal throne for Bahadur Shah on the promise that non-Muslims would be treated with respect. So you're completely wrong. AGAIN. Well done, You're on a roll here. There is a massive difference between being an attractive, confident person. And being a womanizer. Don't talk to me about HONOUR considering you're just being a liar and a hypocrite. If you truly DID consider all women to be as a mother or sister, you would attempt to do EVERYTHING in your power to protect them no matter who they were. You would want ACTION. And yet ALL you do is suggest doing NOTHING. HYPOCRITE. It's very clear at this point that you are simply a loser, angry at women for not giving you any attention. THEY MUST ALL BE SLUTS! OUR VALUES ARE ALL WRONG! IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT! Nevermind the fact that Bhai Mohan HIMSELF said that the girls most likely to be targetted are those with less confidence, the GOOD girls most would see them as. What do you say to that? Don't you know how to READ? What is the play called? That's right it's called BEHZTI. That means? ... That's right... DISHONOUR. The play is about HONOUR KILLINGS. It is also about SEXUAL ABUSE. Is that simple enough for you to understand? Why don't you read about it? http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/may/05/behzti-no-longer-taboo I already said that setting the scene in a Gurdwara was asking for trouble, and Sikhs were justified for protesting. However being set in a Gurdwara office DOES NOT INSULT SIKHISM. You are still a HYPOCRITE for not condemning violence and death threats against the author by Sikhs who can't control themselves. No, YOU mentioned the BNP because you were trying to be clever. As per usual, you failed spectacularly. The BNP are not comparable to the EDL. Tiny minority? Sikhs are ALSO a tiny minority, yet we demand that India give us our own state. A tiny minority must STILL be given its due. These grooming cases involve a tiny minority, but they seem to be happening EVERYWHERE don't they? These kinds of incidents, these actions and hate crimes by Muslims are WIDESPREAD. The Muslim youth attacking the kids at the bus stop were only given a CAUTION and let go. THE LAW is handling it? Just like they handled the situation in Leicester right? The police REALLY have Sikh interests at heart don't they? ¬_¬ The Police have been IMPOTENT in handling any cases involving Muslims, for fear of being branded racists. This must be changed for all our sakes. Do you REALLY think Sikhs can trust the police after all that has happened? SERIOUSLY? You're deluded. I suppose the only thing that would justify Sikhs siding with the EDL would be if something happened to YOU PERSONALLY wouldn't it? You're that selfish kind of person it seems. How dense are you? Don't you understand the difference between SAYING and DOING? Why don't you show us some EVIDENCE of them SAYING they want to burn the Koran? Personally I can't take much stock in anything a liar like you says . They are indeed, they clearly respect us more than the Muslims do. The EDL can actually benefit us too. Do you understand the concept of HELPFULNESS? What about the EDL? You don't like my comparison? Are you denying the fact that white children have been the GREATEST victims of grooming? Are you denying the problems the average White British man and woman face? Are you seriously saying they don't have valid concerns? Ridiculous. Well I think anyone can see YOU are far beyond logic at this point... Er... The EDL were formed ENTIRELY to combat Radical Islam? That was the WHOLE point. How many times must EDL leadership say they aren't against all Muslims? Fact is these problems with Militant Islam and Sharia must be sorted out for the good of EVERYONE... INCLUDING innocent Muslims who don't understand its implications. Do you remember the Bradford Riots in 2001? Do you SERIOUSLY think riots can't happen again? The clock is ticking. WHERE is your evidence that the EDL is against all Muslims? Are you just going to bring up the random 'WHO THE EFF IS ALLAH' chants again? Try harder. I don't think you know what 'contradiction' means. That is because you're likely 12 years old . Now you're just being pedantic. A sure sign that you're losing the argument . You don't know about Muhammad? HAHAHA! THAT IS BECAUSE YOU ARE JUST AN IGNORANT. And you have now admitted it 31. Doosrae mataa dae pustak, vidyaa parhnee. Pur bhrosaa drirh Gurbanee, Akaal Purakh tae karnaa| Study the books and beliefs of other faiths. But maintain trust in Gurbani and Akal Purakh [undying divine personification]. ONCE AGAIN. Are you saying that Muslim sources are CHAV LANGUAGE? Why don't you read up on Islam little man, and THEN you can come back and argue with the big boys? You've pretty much lost. You just admitted your ignorance, while I only speak the truth. Unless you can prove me wrong about what ISLAM ACTUALLY SAYS then keep silent. How many Sikhs do you see in the background of the first video? WHO do you think is holding the camera/mic? I provided EVIDENCE of my claims that Muslims, ex-Muslims, Sikhs and Hindu's are in the EDL. I have proved my point, a feat you are incapable of doing. You don't need my help to make yourself look silly I assure you Are you utterly insane? YOU are the one saying we can fix ALL OUR PROBLEMS by giving each other more hugs and kisses! Sweeping everything under the rug as per usual! What terrible action is the EDL proposing? PEACEFUL PROTESTS TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE GOVERNMENT TO CHANGE LAWS! OH NOEZ! WE CAN'T HAVE THAT! I find it incredibly funny how such a deluded woman fearing, bottom feeding HYPOCRITE such as yourself (who cannot read his own posts) is calling me a chav . PakistaniPunjabi01 REALLY likes your posts. Maybe you should join him in his Islamic hell? You already lie like a Muslim. No. You have NO ideas aside from 'PROMOTE FAMILY VALUEZ'. You come across as just one of those weak hippy Sikhs that our community needs to stop producing, If you AREN'T advocating neutrality then you are CLEARLY advocating protecting Muslims. Condemn the 'Sikhs Against EDL' and the 'Turban Campaign' too if that's not the case, Sikhs are involved on both sides don't forget. At least I would be able to slightly respect your stance if it were completely NEUTRAL. Until then, you CANNOT deny we are SHIELDING them. Don't reply without ACTUAL EVIDENCE backing up your claims this time. Some people have an actual life to lead, have some respect for other peoples time...

I think you've utterly lost it, you're going around in circles, and your inability to refute anything betrays you Let me make this very simple so even YOU can sorta understand... WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT SIKHS ARE AT THREAT FROM THE WHITE POPULATION OR THE EDL? WHERE IS IT? WHY ARE YOU SO PARANOID? You keep saying you've PROVED something... when you've yet to provide a single shred of evidence. You're just being COMPLETELY paranoid and banging on about a problem that does not actually exist... ALL while ignoring real actual pressing problems. Go watch videos by the SIKH AWARENESS SOCIETY. Are they showing families that are suffering because of WHITE people? No. http://www.youtube.com/user/SikhAwarenessSociety What is your solution to CURRENT Sikh problems? Do you even have one? Let me guess... we all sit, join hands and pray? Then eat Langar? Absolutely pathetic, it's lazy people like YOU that are the problem. I'm afraid your faith IS weak. Why are you even on a Sikh forum if you don't believe it can stand up to criticism? Did you get called too many names as a child? An ideology that cannot stand up to debate or a joke is not worth following. Sikhism CAN stand up to those things and it's just incredibly sad you don't believe that. The purpose of the EDL is to stamp out radical Islam, Sharia Law and obtain equal rights for all in this country. What EXACTLY do you expect this conversation to be about if not Muslims? If the subject was about Gay Marriage... then surely we would be talking about Gay Marriage? Try some logic next time . My life is totally unaffected by Muslims, but my Sikh teachings ask me to stamp out injustice wherever I find it. That is what I intend to do. I also can't ignore the fact that Sikhs themselves have suffered. You on the other hand seem to want to brush everything under the carpet. You're in the wrong decade mate. You clearly don't understand what 'Right Wing' means either. The EDL aren't even a POLITICAL party. Maybe you shouldn't use words you don't understand anymore? You basically ARE saying to join the Muslims. You're saying we should STOP PEOPLE INSULTING RELIGION. Muslims very much wish they could do the same. Well done! I've got the perfect country for you to live in, it's called Pakistan. Please go. The ONLY one excusing acts of violence is YOU. I'm saying these tragedies should never have taken place, and we should SWIFTLY act to ensure it never ever happens again. You're saying that they were completely unavoidable. Muslims are USING Sikhs and anything they can stand behind as a SHIELD to protect themselves. To deny this is ridiculous. The media is also allowing this to happen, even abusing the term ASIAN to hide the true ethnicity of arrested groomers even though it's completely obvious to the world that it's Muslims and in particular Pakistanis. Once again you have to PROVIDE EVIDENCE that Sikhs have anything to fear from the white people in this country. Until you can do that you are just being a paranoid nutcase and ignoring REAL problems that exist TODAY. Once again, go watch the Sikh Awareness Society videos. Are you part of the Turban Campaign or something? You seem deluded enough 29. Dushman naal saam, daam, bhaed, aadiak, upaa vartnae ate uprant udh karnaa| When dealing with enemies, practice diplomacy, employ a variety of tactics, and exhaust all techniques before engaging in warfare. WHERE did the Guru say to scream death threats and act like a violent monkeys when someone insults your faith? OH WAIT, IT DOESN'T SAY THAT ANYWHERE! You're nothing but a hypocrite. You call out the EDL for 'WHO THE EFF IS ALLAH' chants and yet you REFUSE to condemn Sikhs saying EVEN WORSE things (against one defenceless Sikh woman). If you can dish it out, then you should be able to take it. Pathetic. Like I said. JUST A HYPOCRITE. Oh really? You blabbing on about promiscuity was to do with the topic of honour? To me it just sounded like you were angry at women for not paying any attention to you I can't blame them... I was talking about HONOUR KILLINGS. You know... a problem that ACTUALLY EXISTS. It is the fault of the Sikh community for its continued silence on the matter and allowing these to take place for so long. When the dam broke and someone finally tackled that taboo subject, what do you EXPECT to happen? Did you expect to love what was being said? Did you ever consider she made it as controversial as she did JUST SO that horrible subject could never be ignored again? To save lives? Are you really silly enough to bring up the BNP in a topic where they aren't even remotely relevant? The BNP have always been against EVERYTHING non-white including Islam. The Shere Punjab used to fight with their lot plenty back in the day. I already stated that the BNP have nothing useful to offer Sikhs PERIOD. Unless you can think of a reason otherwise... how about you start trying to argue intelligently instead of relying on flippant comments? I LIVE next to white people, they feel quite safe and welcome. Maybe that is different where you live. Maybe you should do something about that? You want EVIDENCE of Muslims using violence and intimidation on locals? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0S6cQxhFVM Enjoy trying to deny that. The only way YOU will stop repeating the same things is when you stop typing. If only... That is correct. They DIDN'T burn the Koran. They never HAVE burned the Koran. If they DID burn the Koran then riots would take place somewhere and non-Muslims would likely DIE. On the other hand Radical Muslims have burned poppies, flags, Bibles, screamed at returning soldiers. You name it they've done it, and NO Muslims have been killed for it. So WHICH group is more unhinged? Here are videos of the EDL supporting Sikh protests trying to get Professor Bullar released. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFslu0LhSq8 The EDL were also present at the Sikh protest in Luton in 2012. So tell me, who is seeking out who here? Who is desperate for assistance? Clearly it's the ordinary White British man. Just as the Kashmiri Hindu's pleaded with Guru Tegh Bahadur to save them from their forced conversions by the Mughals. The EDL have come to asks Sikhs to join them against a common oppressor. You can either pass up that offer and keep crying when Muslims annoy us, or we can nip that problem in the bud forever. I am being LOGICAL. You are not... 25. Budh bal da daataa vaheguroo noo jaananaa| Appreciate intellect and power as gifts of the all knowing wondrous Enlightener. First of all there is no OFFICIAL copy of the Zafarnamah available, everyone agrees it may not have been reproduced perfectly. Second, WHY would the Guru insult Islam and the average Muslim anyway? His quarrel was with Aurangzeb, who had lied to the Guru specifically. It is not the average Muslim that is to blame, and nobody has ever claimed that to be the case. You're forgetting the fact that Guru Gobind himself commanded Banda Singh Bahadur to get revenge for the suffering Sikhs had undergone, STRAIGHT after writing the letter. He never told him to attack all Muslims, that would have been ridiculous. With that same thought in mind the EDL also recognises that it is Muslims who are in fact the first victims of Islam, ESPECIALLY the women. In the West Muslims are quite ignorant of what they have been born into. Are you denying that Muhammad married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9? Are you denying the words written in the Koran? The most prized Muslims sources SAY THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED. Are you saying that the Muslim sources are 'TYPICAL CHAV LANGUAGE'? Is that REALLY how you want to go about this? You sound like an Islamophobe... 50. Jhutthi gavaahee nahee daenee| Do not make false statements. I am simply doing as my Guru says I should and SPEAKING THE TRUTH. Maybe you should try it? Well there's at least 2 mate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzWJddc9gkA I DO love making you look silly. And WHAT exactly do we do about these problems? You have NO ANSWERS WHATSOEVER . No YOU are a perpetual bottom licker. You are licking Muslim bottoms. You are licking Leftist and Socialist bottoms. THEN you want to hide and cry in the corner until the problems we face go away, but they NEVER EVER will. Without action NOTHING will ever be fixed. What I PERSONALLY am saying is we should answer the call of those who are suffering because of Islam and NEED HELP (which the EDL have asked for), whether that be the White population or our own fellow Sikhs who have been victims. We need to end that sort of rubbish forever, and we'll never get a better opportunity than this. We ALREADY look stupid protecting the only group of people who ever even attempt to harm us. Do you HONESTLY think Pakistani Muslims respect us? Seriously? Yes, we should be proud of them. If only more were capable of that sort of strength... Too many of us are more than happy to moan and complain and never lift a single finger. Like you for example . Ahhh but you see we ARE already protecting them! By not separating ourselves from Muslims we are protecting them. Protecting the very people who have committed crimes against us. The 'Turban Campaign' is standing in the way of the EDL and protecting Muslims. The 'Sikhs Against The EDL' are standing in the way of the EDL and protecting Muslims. The message that Sikhs give off now is very BLURRED. We have supporters of the EDL and we have people against it. WE ARE NOT NEUTRAL whether you want to believe it or not. If we WERE totally neutral and not connected to any group, that would be BETTER than the mess we have right now. Although I would prefer it if Sikhs (and Hindu's of course) were quiet supporters, allowing the White population to drive the EDL message harder into the mainstream with the greater moral grounding we could offer them. The government would be forced to tackle pressing issues. Sharia would be forever shut down as it should. We would all get what we want with the minumum amount of work. Indians would be respected as those who stood up for British rights. Easy peasy. And STOP dodging my questions. Tell me WHAT have ever Muslims done for us? WHAT have they done to protect us? WHAT better ideas do you have to sort out our problems? When you should KNOW that putting pressure on governments is a numbers game. I look forward to your reply... ... Also, have you noticed how PakistaniPunjabi01 (our resident Radical Muslim) seems to like you posts? How very interesting...

Hahaha! Your Strawman arguments are amazing! Are you THAT AFRAID of people calling you names? Do you seriously believe Sikhism will turn to dust as easily as Islam does when you argue against it? Is your faith that weak? WHAT white people are even insulting Sikhism in the first place? Show me. Inspire confidence in Sikhism? So you're saying that by shutting down peoples ability to express themselves... they're gonna somehow respect us more? HERE'S AN IDEA! If you want to inspire confidence in Sikhi, how about you LISTEN TO YOUR GURU and try to improve this world with good deeds? By doing Sewa, not by being a crybaby. It sounds to me like you want to join the Muslims and petition the government for Pakistan style blasphemy laws . How terribly sad... ------------------------------------------- More of your weak Strawman arguments... You seriously sound like you're petrified of absolutely nothing and ready to go cry in the corner. WHAT harm is the white population of Britain actually doing to you? Doing to Sikhs? WHERE is your evidence that 'THEY ARE COMING FOR US NEXT'? The fact that the country is multi-ethnic is NEVER going to change. The brown faces aren't going anywhere. The WHOLE point of the EDL is to crack down on Muslim problems NOW while we still have the chance and the Muslim population is small enough to easily deal with. You want to talk about post 9/11 attacks on Sikhs? Well how about the fact that Americans have NO IDEA what a Sikh even is? How about the fact that Sikhs have done such a crappy job of separating ourselves from Muslims, that the nutters committing these crimes saw a Turban and INSTANTLY thought Muslim. In case you haven't yet realised... Sikhs are being used AS A SHIELD by Muslims. Both in the US and in the UK. Muslims are using the term 'ASIAN' to SHIELD themselves in the West. To obscure the fact that THEY are the root cause of problems and crimes. We are just playing into their hands, and we should have separated ourselves from their ilk LONG AGO. Sikhs have been the victims of these attacks and died for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The Wisconsin Gurdwara Shooting was done by a man who had NO IDEA WHO WE EVEN WERE. Are you okay with this? Did the Muslims ever come out into the street and protest for OUR sake? Hell no. The best we can get is lip service. ------------------------------------- Disrespect of my religion? Do you not understand the difference between a piece of fiction and ACTUAL REAL LIFE SUFFERING? A theatre play (again which written by a Sikh) does not need to be opposed with violence and death threats under ANY circumstances. Are you saying you advocate such a ridiculous reaction? Over peaceful protest and all the other peaceful (yet powerful) channels? What I consider TRULY disrespectful is the destruction of an innocent life, of someone being murdered or raped ESPECIALLY if they are a fellow Sikh. THAT is a REAL insult. I think your values are all messed up mate... And I think the Guru's would agree with me. What on EARTH are you talking about now? Promiscuous behaviour? What the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING? ¬_¬ Maybe if we didn't have so many scared Sikhs lacking in backbone and willingness to act... then maybe we could actually sort out SOME of our problems? Maybe we could end them entirely? Setting a good example is generally a good first step. Maybe if you lifted weights and had confidence (like me) you could help keep girls in check? ------------------------------------------------ It doesn't MATTER what these Londoners you say you know think. Either Southall is a welcoming place or it isn't. Are Sikhs going around hassling people and telling them to get out? No? Then that's the end of it. I live in a mixed Asian area but both of my neighbours on either side are white families. They STILL live here because they've done so for years and it's still a nice welcoming area. Nobody wants to live in an area plagued by tension, crime and low lifes, doesn't matter what colour they are. ------------------------------------------- The BNP have been trying to get equal rights have they? Since when? The BNP didn't even allow any non-whites into their organisation until they were forced to relatively recently by the Law. The BNP have nothing good to offer anyone. End of. ---------------------------------------------------- So the EDL is racist now is it? HOW? I'm brown and I'm telling you they aren't racist. So convince me how they are, bearing in mind that Islam is an ideology NOT a race. There are Muslims of all different colours but only ONE Islam. There has never been Koran burning at a demonstration either, that is a ridiculous claim. Militant Islam and Islamification are all aspects of Islam (Jihad) and Sharia Law. You would know this if you read the Koran. ALL of it must be tackled as one entity. I've already told you that even the EDL Leader himself doesn't support the 'WHO THE EFF IS ALLAH!' chants. That chant is a clear response to the 'GOD IS GREAT' chants constantly used by Islamists and terrorists. I don't support the chants either, but frustrated people need an outlet. Are you telling me that Muhammad WASN'T a pedophile? He was a 50 odd year old man who married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9 and she STILL played with dolls. How is that NOT a pedophile? There are even ex-Muslims at EDL rallies, so you best believe people from all other ethnic backgrounds support them in some capacity. This is nothing to do with desperation, it's about logic finally winning out. Do you have a better idea? I doubt it. Ah yes.... We would lose the brilliant 'support' of the community of 'GOOD' Muslims (who incidentally want to have Sharia Law in this country). The same Muslims who have done SO MUCH FOR SIKHS in the past am I RIGHT? ¬_¬ Face reality mate. I am actually arguing the need for action to sort out Sikh issues. You on the other hand are simply afraid. You are afraid of white people for some strange reason despite how SOFT this country is. You are also afraid of Muslims. You are being a Muslim apologist (using terms like racist) and want to lick bottoms to try to keep a lid on 'community tensions'. 40 Sikh guys attacked a small Muslim owned restaurant in Leicester after it had been found to be linked to grooming activity, after the police and the Muslim community did nothing to prevent it. THERE is your community cohesion RIGHT THERE. Smashed into a billion pieces . Newsflash. SIKHS HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED TARGETS BY MUSLIMS FOR A VERY LONG TIME. MUSLIMS HAVE NOT SORTED THESE ISSUES OUT. Why should we protect those who won't do the same for us and only seek to stab us in the back? Are you still here? Haven't I thrashed you enough to scare you off by now? You aren't even a challenge . Funny, a Muslim talking about being... hahaha... RATIONAL!

Whups, sorry about the late reply. Anyhoo... I already said that if someone is insulting you DELIBERATELY you should ignore them or respond in a COOL MINDED manner. Sticks and stones mate, at the end of the day Sikhism is unaffected. HOW can anyone decide what is an acceptable opinion to have? Where are the lines drawn? You simply cannot put a limit on Free Speech on anything but the most extreme things (like inciting violence). ----------------------- I'm sorry but it just sounds like you're terrified of the 'British public' (who are so inept it took forever for them to acknowledge their children were being groomed) for reasons that you haven't been able to get across. I'm struggling to understand how a bunch of random white people groaning whilst watching the News is meant to be WORSE... than Pakistani men grooming children in a sadistic manner. Or worse than ANY of the problems the Islamic community gives the country which I have already highlighted. Indians are affected by all of these problems too, not just the white populace. WHICH is the more pressing matter? Seriously WHAT is there to be remotely afraid of from downtrodden white people? -------------------------- Fact is when it came to the 'Behzti' situation, some Sikhs were giving the author death threats (so she went into hiding) and some were arrested for violence. Of COURSE there was gonna be negativity, can you blame anyone? How is that meant to look to an outsider? And what was it all for? A goddamn THEATRE PLAY. The actions of some Sikhs made us look pathetic. It made us look like Muslims... offended at EVERY tiny thing, and we SHOULD be better than that. Protests, lawsuits, boycotts and maybe even a call to get her EXCOMMUNICATED from the Sikh community would be far more appropriate. Maybe she did write the play just for the controversy, or maybe she didn't we don't know. That said you can't deny that 'honour' isn't a topic that has led to a great deal of stupidity in the Sikh community and of course South Asian communities in general. We just RECENTLY learned the story of the old Sikh woman who got her daughter-in-law murdered in India to preserve her families reputation. Problems exists and eventually SOMEONE is going to talk about them, even in ways we don't like. I don't recall the feeling towards Sikh protests against greedy Gurdwara's holding Interfaith Marriages being all that bad. After the initial shock value wore off, the discussions were quite civil and the logic of WHY they shouldn't take place quite clear. ----------------------- With regards to your point about Southall, there are PLENTY of reasons why people who've lived there generations would leave... They are wealthier and can afford better places to live? Bigger houses? Jobs? Schools? They want to move to the country? This is especially true with older people. And yes, maybe they just want to live with other white people? Are you saying Indians never move out of Muslim dominated areas? It's natural to want to stick with your 'own kind'. The point is, Southall is still a WELCOMING place for these white people, they aren't being forced out like what happens in these 'Muslim Areas'. In these areas there are people using violence and intimidation to FORCE minorities in the area out. This has happened all across Europe. --------------------------------------- I never said Muslims were responsible for ridiculously lazy business practices in British companies, that would be the companies themselves. Muslim abattoirs however ARE the source of Halal meat, they lack responsibility and REALLY DON'T CARE AT ALL where it goes. The whole Halal meat industry should be stopped until it is fully worked out to protect everyone who may come in contact with it, with various laws in place to prevent it ever mucking up ever again. A Sikh should understand the urgent need for this. Killing animals may be cruel, but the Halal slaughter method (slitting the throat and allowing the animal to bleed to death) is the very worst of all. I NEVER said that Halal meat should be shut out forever, even though personally I wouldn't have an issue with that . -------------------------------- You've never heard the Azaan before where you live? Good, it's annoying noise pollution which I'm sure was intended to crush the spirits of Kaffirs once upon a time. Only Muslims would ever be allowed to get away with broadcasting their ideals in THAT manner, and they'd take to the streets if anyone else tried to do the same. That has to change. I'm glad you agree that everyone should have TRULY equal rights and treatment. Right NOW that is not the case, and who else is trying to fix that aside from the EDL? Nobody. Sikhs have a moral duty to help ensure fairness prevails wherever that may be, members of the EDL have come to US for help not the other way around. If Sikhs giving a unified nod to the EDL sorts out everyones problems, then who are we to stand in the way of positive progress? ... FOOLS that's what. Muslims have not earned our protection, and they are the only ones in the country challenging our own.

Are you STILL here? Playing that SAME EXACT tune? What about the ONGOING genocide taking place in Darfur? Which is Muslim African Arabs trying to wipe out and dominate the native African people. What about the 1400 years of Muslim conquest resulting in the death and rape of countless millions? (conservative estimates have been at least 270 million deaths) What about the horrid treatment of anyone who isn't Muslim or THE RIGHT KIND of Muslim in Muslim countries? Also with regard to your facts... Nazism had NOTHING to do with Christianity, it was a purely Atheist Ideology. They actively attempted to remove ALL religion including Christianity. Chinese are not all Atheist, they are MOSTLY Taoist and Buddhist. The difference is that all these ideologies you mention either... 1. Condemn acts of violence and rape. 2. Aren't currently being used (or misused) to try and justify hatred and violence on any real scale, it's confined to lone nutters. The main reason for colonial activity was greed pure and simple. 3. Are basically dead, such as in the case with Nazism and Communism. Islam on the other hand is STILL the motivating factor behind so much destruction, as if so many Muslims don't even know what century this is. It is SYSTEMATIC. I and many others have given you evidence time and again as to how the Koran supports this. Evidence that you fail to refute, all you do is deny, deny, and deny some more. Keep on embarressing yourself all you want . For once I can agree with PakistaniPunjabi01 that I highly doubt it will come to anything. Listening to the BBC Nihal debate didn't exactly inspire much confidence. This is just lip service as per usual. There's the obvious mention of the fact that practically everyone in their community knew what was happening and didn't bat an eyelid. There was also a councillor who could barely speak English trying to deny Islam and Pakistani culture had anything to do with it. A simple speech can't fix this level of irrationality. There are well OVER 1500 Mosques in the UK. So the penetration of this 'message' isn't all that great. Not to mention Muslim women basically DO NOT go to Mosques and are not expected to. There are 55 Mosques in the Leicester area, and apparently only 3 of them even have a separate prayer room for women. There won't be any speakers in those 'second class' rooms I bet. Women are practically out of the loop. ...And there were STILL women blabbing on about how Islam treats women as equals in that BBC debate... The sheer amount of ignorance is incredible and simply stunning... For comparisons sake there are around 223 Gurdwara's in the UK, all of them with equal prayer rights obviously. If Muslims DID care even a small fraction of the amount they care about cartoons of Muhammad, and if they WERE even capable of solving their many problems, Muslims would have surely shown it by now. Surely SOME good would have happened after all this time. We should expect nothing until Islam itself is fixed and that will NEVER happen. Muslims can barely be bothered to even read the Koran, nevermind write a better one. The ONLY way to fix this situation in my opinion is to come down on it like a ton of bricks. Sikhs should know that better than anyone.

Sikhs are NOT affected by this and we shouldn't feel negative towards it, in fact we should welcome equal rights for all. I'm pretty sure the situation in the US (although some states disallow it entirely) is the same as in the UK. Gay marriage is mostly politically correct nonsense. We ALREADY have Civil Partnerships/unions which give gay couples the same exact rights as a marriage. It's amazing that in the UK gay couples can get TWO forms of marriage whereas straight couples only get to choose the one... That's fairness right there... That said we must not forget that gay people don't CHOOSE to be gay. They just developed to seek out same sex relationships, it's beyond their control. Fact is whether we like it or not there are gonna be gay Sikhs out there, even if they were born into macho Punjabi culture. Does that mean Gurdwara's should allow Gay Marriages to take place in them? HELLZ NO. Our values are CLEAR. A Gurdwara shouldn't allow Anand Karaj for gay couples. A Gurdwara shouldn't allow Anand Karaj for anyone who ISN'T Sikh either. It's just that simple, and changing the rules (especially just for collecting money) is an insult to the values of Sikhism. It's a lie and an insult directed STRAIGHT at the Guru Granth Sahib. You can't pick and choose what values you want to keep, religion isn't supposed to work that way. The values of Sikhism have ALWAYS been incredibly modern and ridiculously fair, they don't need to be altered. If marrying someone of the same sex makes someone happy, then more power to them! Rules are still rules, and they were put in place so the Khalsa could prosper and make the world a better place. Sikhs who happen to be gay should understand and respect that, the religion CANNOT change just so you can have a pretty wedding. Even though gay people are generally about as nice as you can get, the amount who actually WANT to get married isn't as big as you might think it is. It's well known gay people are among the most open when it comes to relationships.

NOW COME ON GUYS LETS BE FAIR! 2 of those 7 pictured are AFRICAN Muslims . All Muslims are equally capable of reading the Koran (of which there is only one and according to itself, it is perfect and clear) or copying Mohammad, and seeing that rape and slavery of the Kaffir and going after children is well... QUITE JUSTIFIED. This is particularly clear if you see the situation in Europe where Muslims originating from ALL different Muslim countries are causing trouble. In Australia it's Lebanese that are most well known to have been involved in these kinda rape cases. Sura 4:3: You can have 4 wives and unlimited concubines/slaves ‘that your right hand possess’. And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan-girls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice. Sura 4:24: Forbidden from sex with a married Muslim women, but you can have sex with female captives and slaves. Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise. Sura 3:110: Says that Muslims are apparently better than anyone else. You [true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Sunnah (legal ways, etc.)] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allah. And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fasiqun (disobedient to Allah - and rebellious against Allah's Command). Sura 2:90: Allah REALLY hates disbelievers How bad is that for which they have sold their ownselves, that they should disbelieve in that which Allah has revealed (the Quran), grudging that Allah should reveal of His Grace unto whom He will of His slaves. So they have drawn on themselves wrath upon wrath. And for the disbelievers, there is disgracing torment. Sura 2:282: A woman is worth half that of a man. O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Sura 4:16: Those who committed adultery with your women can be punished, but if they repent they should be let off with no consequences. And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both. And if they repent (promise Allah that they will never repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins) and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allah is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, (and He is) Most Merciful. There are many relevant sura's, especially those denigrating women. This will do for now. Mohammed of course married Aisha when she was 6 years old and had PENETRATIVE (as in we don't fully know what came before) sexual intercourse with her when she was 9. Anyway, it just so happens that most of the Muslims in England are Pakistani in origin, some of the men who have been arrested for grooming were even born there. That said Pakistan seems to be one of those countries that seems to take Islam to a whole other level, like they ALWAYS have something to prove... I don't know how these poor girls can ever get over what horrors have been inflicted on them, but I wish them all the best. Hopefully they'll never have to see evil as ugly as this (I mean that literally too) ever again. Also it's funny... I'm not seeing Sikhs involved in these case...

Nope, Jazzy B is pretty normal actually. Aside from the fact he's a famous singer. He's a moderate Punjabi Sikh and he's fiercely proud of his roots. He's also a musician and selling records is his job. Like it or not sex appeal sells. Life is full of contradictions. I know you REALLY want to say he's 'not a true Sikh', but Jazzy B never claimed to be super religious (although he has done devotional music...). When it comes to the kind of sleaze the music industry IS CAPABLE of then seriously Jazzy B... REALLY isn't that bad . At least he's not a typical 'Gangsta Rapper'... And yes I have seen 'This Party Gettin Hot'... It's hilariously crappy. Fact of the matter is Jazzy B is a legend in the music industry (considered the king of Bhangra). Instead of thinking about how much of regular Mona Sikh he is, you SHOULD be thinking... How much GOOD is this guy doing, is he helping Sikhism become more well known, successful and acclaimed? The answer is YES, so we should support him instead of trying to alienate him. The same goes for any Sikh in showbiz, judge them for the good they can do AS WELL AS calling them out for the bad. The fact that the first and pretty much only South Asian singer to break into America with English music is a Punjabi Sikh called Kamaljit Singh Jhooti (Jay Sean) and wears a kara. You CANNOT DENY that there are Sikhs (especially girls since all he seems to do is love songs ) that feel good about that. Hard Kaur on the other hand... She's just another talentless rapper and she's been around forever. She seems to try and get attention by being controversial and sleazy... and still nobody really cares. As far as I can tell she's not doing much good for Sikhs or anyone. Also the fact that she has KAUR in her stagename is freaking ridiculous, you can't even separate her from her Sikh roots and see her as JUST A PERSON WHO HAPPENS TO BE A RAPPER...

AAANNNNNDDDD... you continue to ignore debate. Dude... How is anyone supposed to take you remotely seriously when you're saying punching someone in the face when you've lost a debate is good? What did Tommy do here to earn a punch? This radical couldn't even control himself with a CAMERA pointing straight at his face... Keep on promoting random acts of violence though if you want, I've seen THIS EXACT behaviour (most celebrating Tommy got slapped, a few smart people worrying about how bad it'll make Islam look) on Muslim forums with THIS EXACT old Youtube clip I mean... that pretty much sums you up .

It's very simple, even from a Sikh point of view. 1. Get Married . There is no limit on sexual interaction as long as its with your husband/wife. 2. Get some hobbies and do sports, keep yourself busy. The more enjoyable activities you have filling your life, the less you'll feel inclined towards lust (you just won't care anymore). Exercise in particular releases 'feel good' hormones. 3. Masturbate, and take full control of your body. Your body has a built-in natural ability to make itself happy through masturbation, which releases 'feel good' hormones. Eating food and sleeping also releases these pleasure hormones (so some people get addicted to eating and become obese). You could very well argue... why do you even need a sexual partner when you can do it yourself? The answer would obviously be companionship and children. There is nothing in Sikhism against masturbation that I know of. This is not Islam, where boys and girls need circumcisions to destroy sexual pleasure forever, where women need to be covered in a big black sheet so we don't instantly want to rape them. In Sikhism, you are EXPECTED to be able to control yourself. If masturbating means you're taking full command of your own hormones and can take your mind off sex for other things, I personally don't see what's wrong with it. Sure masturbation may not be a very saintly act, but Sikhism is also all about finding true happiness without needing to bother with things that are ACTUALLY LEGITIMATELY HARMFUL and can ruin your life (like alcohol, tobacco and multiple partners). That said, some people choose to reject any form of sexual activity (this is called 'NO FAP' on bodybuilding and other forums) and feel far more focused and productive with their lives. You could try that. Also PORN is PROVEN to be bad for you. It mainly leads to a very corrupted view of sex (porn is all fake of course) that can seriously damage self-esteem and future relationships. It can lead to depression, porn addiction, desensitization and because of that apparently even temporary erectile dysfunction in extreme cases. Also lots of wasted time, that part is inevitable. So yeah... I wouldn't recommend that even if I wasn't on a Sikh forum , but I felt it had to be covered if there actually ARE any impressionable teens reading this. You aren't missing anything. These are just my opinions of course, no offense intended. I'm sure more religious people are gonna outright say ignore lust and forget you even have genitals .

No, free speech should cover EVERY TOPIC. If someone wants to criticize Sikhism they should be ALLOWED to and we shouldn't have a problem with it. If an ideology can't stand up to debate then it's not worth following. Sikhism CAN STAND UP to any debate, so we have nothing to fear. I mean just look at Guru Gobind's 52 Hukams, It's so incredibly righteous IT HURTS. You CAN'T pick holes in the strength of that moral code it's impossible. Modern day values can't even compare to how ridiculously heavenly you're supposed to be in Sikhism . The problem is when you've got people like PakistaniPunjabi01 talking rubbish about things they don't understand (like what an inferiority complex is ) and REFUSING to engage in actual debate. At that point all you can do is ignore them until they get bored and go away. But WHO is denigrating Sikhism anyway? The white man? Hardly! I've never heard/read about a white person saying anything but positive things about Sikhs, talking about how we're all warriors and hard working, really fun people to hang around with and never cause any trouble. I don't see ANY Sikhs disagreeing with this either . You CAN'T pick and choose what opinions you're willing to allow. The play Behzti was WRITTEN BY A SIKH don't forget. Someone in our VERY OWN community wanted to talk about various issues we face and we have to allow that. The only real problem was she set the play in a Gurdwara without any actual given reason for it, and Sikhs were RIGHT TO PEACEFULLY PROTEST about it and not support it. You are also free to call the author a traitor, but violence is out of the question. As for Southall. A white person may not want to LIVE there, but would they ever say they feel totally unwelcome? I don't think so. Tommy Robinson has gone on record saying that even though Southall is basically a Sikh town, it's just as friendly as a white area. There are tons of Sikhs that live in Bradford, but that doesn't mean I ever want to live in freaking Bradford. Shutting down debate is ONLY for the weak minded, the Guru's were STRONG and engaged in debate as much as possible. Violence was the only option for dealing with barbarians like the Mughals, and THAT is why Sikhism took up arms. Violence is the LAST option, when there are no other means of getting justice (like what happened in Leicester with the police not doing anything to help). In some cases violence is morally superior to inaction. ------------- Tommy Robinson has already admitted that classic EDL chants like 'WHO THE EFF IS ALLAH' are probably not the best way to win support, but fact of the matter is Islamists have said and done far worse. Free speech isn't always pretty and nobody said it was, but it is the best way to run the world. The people (no matter who/what they are) in the EDL are ANGRY at the injustice taking place in England, and how their country and future is changing for the worse. PROTESTING with the EDL is the best possible outlet for that anger, far better than random people turning to riots and blind violence like Anders Breivik did in Norway. We already had the 2001 Bradford Riots years ago before we even knew multi-culturalism failed. Do you seriously think that can't happen again? Or worse? --------------- I disagree, Halal SHOULD be banned. Muslims had their chance to make it work and they clearly failed us all. Halal should CONTINUE to be banned until they can prove beyond doubt that it will never infringe on the rights of non-Muslims in Britain (95% of the country) ever again. As a Sikh I will FOREVER be appalled by Halal. As a British person I will FOREVER be appalled by Halal. Halal goes against British views on Animal Welfare, so the time when Halal will be truly acceptable is probably never. The 'Azaan', the Muslim call to prayer should ALSO be banned. Just like it was banned in the Sikh Empire. WHY should anyone have to hear for miles around AND in their homes, some guy on a loudspeaker chant about how amazing Islam and Muhammad is? How much you suck for being an unbeliever? WHAT would happen if a Gurdwara started using loudspeakers to blast to the world how amazing the Guru's, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Waheguru are? Would Muslims appreciate that? Would anyone actually WANT that? WHAT would happen if someone was to use loudspeakers at their house and blast to the world how much better they are than everyone else? They'd be arrested . .... THAT is not equal rights. Just because you are a Muslim in a Mosque does not give you a right to annoy the rest of us like that. Either let us ALL use loudspeakers or NOBODY can use them. NOW is the time for the country to decide. Do we want Britain-istan. Or do we want Great Britain? YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH. We either have to give Muslims everything they want, or 'limit' them by giving them the SAME rights as the other 95% of this country. There is no halfway point. That is the only option for having true peace, although 'peace' in a Muslim country doesn't count for anything when it comes to a Kaffir. If Muslims don't like these fair terms, they are free to leave. The countless violent conquests of Islam have given them MANY places to choose from. Places that probably have better weather and scenery than Britain ANYWAY . You've had all this time and STILL you haven't replied to my post. Such a shame... but for all I know you've set me to 'ignore'. I shall take that as my glorious victory over you . The Muslim women that are emotionally blackmailed into wearing a Burqa and into using Sharia courts (where they are mistreated)? THEY ARE BRITISH WOMEN. The violence and intimidation used by Muslims on non-Muslims who walk into the wrong part of town? Go watch some videos on Youtube. Criminals are in every community I agree. People will always be people. It's the values those people believe in that ultimately matter, and so... Show me a Sikh grooming gang that targets non-Sikh girls, and uses Sikh ideology to justify it. Actually just show me a SINGLE Sikh grooming gang, even one. I'm not even saying they don't exist, I want to know what Sikhs have the guts to be this disgusting. You can't do it... can you .

PakistaniPunjabi01 is like our forums very own worse version of Anjem Choudary, except not nearly as outright hilarious. We don't have to worry about him exploding though, because he's already imploded multiple times... Anything that is remotely negative/true about Islam should be ignored/played down, and MUST be propaganda created by the West and Jews. I guess even quoting the Koran counts because he doesn't like anyone doing that either! It's funny he's blaming Liberalism this time... which seems to be Islams bestest friend and defender in the West . There is a MASSIVE difference between allowing people to open girl-only and boy-only schools, and outright BANNING co-education schools. This is just basic logic. WHAT is the Muslim world even afraid of anyway? WHAT is going to happen with these boys and girls? Are 8 year olds going to start rolling around together in the sand? In a sane world, the Taliban would not be given a SINGLE INCH, but clearly they will anyway. That said Pakistan had never even taking fighting the Taliban seriously anyway, so this should be no surprise...

Hey look! It's PakistaniPunjabi01... AGAIN! And he's being completely deluded and denying problems... AGAIN! When will he learn... I'm guessing never, since clearly even sarcasm is too much for him to handle. What Christian preachers SAY and what they DO are two completely different things. If they are peaceful, they should be allowed to say anything they like. I would completely defend someones right to criticise Sikhi, and the GREAT thing is Sikhism is more than strong enough to argue its corner and brush those criticisms away. Islam on the other hand breaks into pieces the second you read the Koran, and Muslims go AWFULLY SILENT when you quote it. Muslim countries don't even come close to having Free Speech, but in the West and many non-Muslim countries it's the building block of society. Societies that are far more successful than those dominated by Islam . Almost 5% of the UK is Muslim. According to various studies and surveys, at least 40-60% of Muslims WANT to live under Sharia Law in Britain. THAT is a huge problem for integration, and the welfare of Muslims and everyone else. Those Muslims are willing to sellout our very way of life. Radical and hate-filled Muslims may be a small percentage of the population, but clearly they are doing disgusting acts and crimes that no other group would do. It's even worse when they are SHIELDED by the outwardly moderate elements of the Islamic community who will just pass the blame and claim ignorance. There is plenty of DOCUMENTED VIDEO EVIDENCE of Muslims infringing on the rights of the rest of British society and moreso in Europe. Look at the videos of Muslims patrolling a 'Muslim Areas' in the UK, using intimidation and even violence. Look at the ridiculous riots that have taken place in Europe and currently in Sweden. Look at the child grooming. It's simply pathetic what we put up with. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for for the topic itself. Sikhs in the UK are the most successful Asian minority in the UK, and just behind Jews when it comes to minorities as a whole. Surrey in Canada is like a mini-Punjab and a safe haven, but it doesn't change the fact that the US and Canada BARELY know what a Sikh even is. Not to mention we don't have Sikh 'Mafia' and drug related crime over here thankfully. Aside from smacking down some rather evil Muslims now and then, we're very law abiding citizens . The PROBLEM... is the typical Muslim one, The fact that they are unwillingly to integrate and live the same as everyone else. It's a problem that is plaguing countries the WORLD OVER (UK, Europe, India, Sri Lanka, Russia, China, Africa, Australia, Burma etc). Sikhs have nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter where you are, Islam WILL hassle you. Muslims aren't even 1% of American society yet, in Canada they are less than 3%. I'd say in Canada you are VERY close to feeling the annoyance and intolerance Muslims are capable of inflicting. In America if you go to Dearborn Michigan with its high Arab population... you'll instantly lose Free Speech the second you walk in. The best advice would be don't be ignorant, picking holes in the Koran is so easy a toddler could do it. Feel free to quote the Koran at every opportunity to teach everyone what Islam is truly about... hatred of nearly everything. Here's one to get you started! Sura 9:29: Fight those who don't believe in Allah. "Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Stay safe brother .

COME IN PAKISTANTIPUNJABI01!! CAN YOU READ ME? OVER! WHY ARE YOU AFRAID OF ME? Dude... 'article posted/discussed in an American military forum filled with retired American military service personel..' What are we meant to assume aside from that you want us to BELIEVE AN AMERICAN EX-SOLDIER wrote it? WHERE is the original link? Are you 5 years old or something? Why can't you provide a simple link? One that ISN'T your favourite forum 'www.defence.pk'? We already told you. It's nothing but a worthless piece of Islamic propaganda, the author of whom has CLEARLY spent too long at a Shisha bar and completely lost his mind. It's nothing but wishful fantasy and opinion, and says little more than ISLAM IS REALLY REALLY BIG AND YOU SHOULD BE REALLY SCARED!!! We all agree Islam is big, but the OP is so ridiculously positive that it's just HILARIOUS! I'm surprised it doesn't say that if you scream GOD IS GREAT enough times you'll be able to fly . I and other posters have ALREADY explained MANY times over why your OP is ridiculous, we've laid points out beautifully to make it easy for you. We're being completely fair and honest about this and with you. But... You won't refute MY post, you won't refute ANYONES posts! How are we supposed to have a debate if you don't even reply properly? You won't accept anything negative, you just ignore it. Now you've stooped so low you're just calling people Islamophobes because they (like me) know more about the Koran than you do You're being a child and you're just trolling at this point... If you can't add anything interesting to the forum then why are you here? Seriously my Sikh brothers, if THIS is the best the Muslim world has to offer in terms of debate. I don't know why we thought we ever had anything to worry about...

Hey PakistaniPunjabi01! Why won't you respond to my lovely post? DON'T LEAVE ME HANGIN DUDE! ARE YOU SCARED OF ME? PAKISTANIPUNJABI01!!!!! COME OUT TO PLAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYY!!!!! I just LOVE the irony you're spouting right now! Sikhs have an inferiority complex? Hahahaha Punjabi Sikhs are NOTORIOUS for being arrogant, it gets us a suprising amount of trouble and hatred. Guru Gobind in his 52 Hukams even tried to get us to stop bigging ourselves up. I'm sure you've heard our Bhangra music (invented as a variation of Punjabi Folk Music by Punjabi Sikhs in the UK) and heard it played at Pakistani weddings you've gone to Sikhs are the most successful Asian group in the UK, the only other minority that makes more money than us is Jews, and we don't need to hate them for it . At the bottom of course is Pakistani's in their ghetto's claiming benefits. A Punjabi Sikh guy can walk into a club (if he's so inclined) and pull a bird no problem (Indians usually get a lame reputation, Punjabi Sikhs are considered tough). Women run straight the other away from a guy with a Muslim name. THAT is why we will never have Sikh grooming gangs, well that and the fact that it's the worst thing you can do and completely against everything Sikhism stands for . If a Sikh guy ever tried to get his brother or uncle involved in prostituting little girls, the whole family would beat him until he was wheelchair bound and have him jailed. Muslim men don't get many options... maybe that's the problem? Little children in care homes are the only ones they can successfully go after? That or they have to lie, blackmail, harass and use all sorts of pathetic tactics, many times make a poor girls life a living hell to the point where embracing Islam is seen as an ESCAPE! Also if I was circumcized... I'd probably be angry all the time too. SORE UNPROTECTED DRY PRIVATES RUBBING AGAINST MY BOXER SHORTS ARGGH! Islam is the very EMBODIMENT of the inferiority complex matey. Islam wants women to cover themselves head to toe in a big black sheet with only one eye hole so nobody will 'steal' them! (which they do anyway ) Islam will outright kill you if you try to leave. Islam wants to subjugate everyone and everything, so people can SEE how 'amazing' Islam is. I'm sure if you put a gun/sword in most peoples face they'll say they're a chicken that farts rainbows too. Muslim countries hate the 'dirty' West but want everything it has for itself. This has been the case with Islam since its very CREATION, starting with Muhammad jealous of Meccan Jews, Christians and Pagans. When they didn't listen to his rubbish he started causing trouble. When the Meccans had had enough they threw him out. The Medinian Jews took him in and protected him. When he became powerful enough he then had the Jews beheaded, and made their women and children slaves. After that he went staight to Mecca and Islam began an endless (until now) conquering rampage. Pakistan is founded on that, it's always jealous of India to the point of starting wars that it always loses. India just won the Cricket Champions Trophy, do you think Pakistani's were happy about that? Muslims always feel like they are being attacked, when it's THEM doing the attacking to people who are TRYING to accept them. You yourself are a Muslim, and you've come on a Sikh forum trying to make us believe Islam is great. WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE WHAT WE THINK? Do you see Sikhs giving enough of a crap to go to Muslim forums? It's so pathetic mate Dude... The ancestors of Sikhs were proud people who fought for values that are even loftier than what we have in the West today, against tyranny and oppression. No matter what happens and no matter how far Sikhs fall, nobody can EVER take that away from us. We are respected the world over. Your own Hindu ancestors were murdered, raped, harassed, blackmailed and taxed until they SUBMITTED to Islam because they had no choice. THINK of all that pain they lived through. Why are you not angry about that? Don't they deserve you trying to stop this madness once and for all? Nobody hates Muslims (just the radical/hateful Muslims that actually FOLLOW IT PROPERLY). You're all victims, especially the girls. We just pity you dude .

He should make a movie based on the SARAGARHI. It's an amazing story that's also important to Sikh culture, and has never been done. I really enjoyed Sadda Haq, it managed to keep things musical without going full on Bollywood cheesy with ridiculous dance routines. The subject matter was treated with utmost respect, and he covered the important topics (like what motivated Rajoana and Dilawar Singh) without being too gruesome to watch. All in all, the kind of important film Bollywood can't seem to do. What Kuljinder achieved as a brand new director with such a low budget (1.5 million crore, less than £200,000) was very impressive, but he needs to learn and improve as an action director. Saragarhi would be the perfect film for that. It's got plenty of action, but it's also a small scale human story. I just don't think he is ready to make something as explosive as a film about Operation Blue Star, he needs more experience.

I can admit to being childish now and again, but I think you may have me beat this time. I mean really? Calling Winston Churchill an English Hitler? Did he commit any genocides that I'm not aware of? I'm pretty sure he's hailed as a hero for defending Britain and defeating Nazi Germany in World War 2... Not to mention Churchill served in the armed forces and likely had more experience in Muslim countries and majority Muslim states than YOU yourself have. And you're saying he's less intellectual than... David 'The Chameleon' Cameron! Instead of dissing Winston Churchill, why don't you explain what's actually FACTUALLY WRONG about what he said? Oh you want another quote? About Indian religions this time? NO PROBLEMO! ".....It is a matter of regret that due to the obsession of the present times people are distorting the superior religious and social values, but those who wish to preserve them with respect, we should appreciate them as well as help them. Sikhs do need our help for such a cause and we should give it happily. Those who know the Sikh history, know England's relationship with the Sikhs and are aware of the achievements of the Sikhs, they should persistently support the idea of relaxation to Sikhs to ride a motorbike with their turbans on, because it is their religious privilege." Churchill, further added: "...British people are highly indebted and obliged to Sikhs for a long time. I know that within this century we needed their help twice and they did help us very well. As a result of their timely help, we are today able to live with honour, dignity, and independence. In the war, they fought and died for us, wearing the turbans. At that time we were not adamant that they should wear safety helmets because we knew that they are not going to wear them anyways and we would be deprived of their help. At that time due to our miserable and poor situation, we did not force it on them to wear safety helmets, why should we force it now? Rather, we should now respect their traditions and by granting this legitimate concession, win their applaud." - Sir Winston Churchill, addressing British Parliment. Happy? It sounds quite positive! This Churchill bloke sounds like a decent guy to me mate ----- Global village? Not quite... I have American friends I speak to everyday, but that doesn't mean I know what it's like to live in Boston day in day out. ----- Sorry to break it to you but it's true, EVERY kind of person and even ex-Muslims are indeed gravitating to the EDL. Maybe it's growing even faster than Islam? If these 'Defense Leagues' are not important enough to care about, then why are so many Muslims and Leftists afraid? Why are they constantly shouting the EDL down and closing down legitimate debate? Why are they trying so hard to get organisations like it banned? The Leftist media and the BBC just look like cartoon clowns now, everyone can see right through them. ----- If Muslims don't want to drink alcohol or eat pork, that's entirely up to them. I don't drink, but pork is just delicious . POLLUTING the food that the other 95% of the country wants to eat? That is unacceptable, and it's happened too often. Too long have supermarkets lied to the masses about where their meat comes from. Schools have served Halal food to children without parental consent. Restaurants serve Halal without making sure people are adequately informed or even get a choice of anything else. All of this for simple moneymaking reasons like CHEAPER COST OF MEAT AND MORE POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS. It's a travesty and needs to end. The few do not get to erode the rights of the many. Sikhs of course are forbidden to eat Halal, the Guru's rejected barbaric ritual slaughter in ALL of its many forms. However the fact of the matter is NO non-Muslim wants to support the Halal Meat Industry ESPECIALLY without knowing about it, and when they DO know they definitely don't want to support it . Halal slaughter abattoirs? Where animals are brutalized? Where only Muslims can work? Where money goes to Jihad? NO THANKS BRO. In fact lets flip it and think about Muslims suffering! (which is all you care about) How many times have we seen situations where food that is SUPPOSED to be Halal, has not actually lived up to Halal standards? Either it's been stunned and killed 'incorrectly', or it's got Pork DNA in it or has been contaminated in some other way. The system of handling meat has failed Muslims and they've been lied to as well. Halal should be banned in Britain (and Western) countries, it's simply incompatible and doesn't work. If they want to eat Halal meat they can do it in a Muslim country. That way we ALL know where we stand. In Sura 5:3: Muslims are ALLOWED to eat non-Halal meat if it there is no other option for them, so there really shouldn't be a problem. That said Europe is quite used to 'Muslim Uproar' by now anyway . ----- As for Hijabs and Burqa's well... Sura 33:59: O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful. To me that sounds like the Koran is saying women should be completely covered, so the Burqa is more 'official' than the Hijab. Quite frankly to be a REALLY GOOD Muslim, women should only have ONE eye hole! What's wrong with the Burqa? Well tell me what's RIGHT about it? It's dull and not very nice to look at. It's a symbol of female oppression. It completely destroys any forms of communication and integration. Oh and... MUSLIM MEN HAVE COMMITTED ROBBERIES WEARING BURQA'S MANY TIMES BEFORE... Nobody has a problem with the Hijab, it's just a scarf after all. The Burqa however is completely different and not welcome in Britain, even if it was the womans 'choice'. ALL face coverings should be banned for security reasons no matter what. ----- No I'm afraid it's NOT Muslims who get to decide who builds Mosques, it's the LOCAL COUNCILS. Without building permission, you can't build ANYTHING it doesn't matter who you are. Some towns/cities have more Mosques than the Muslims who actually live there know what to do with. There should be a quota system in place. I'd be equally against having a Gurdwara or Mandir on every street corner too, but at least I'd know they weren't having regular talks given by HATE PREACHERS! ----- Bigot? Islamophobe? I was wondering when you'd pull those out. I guess that means I've won the argument. You didn't even have a comeback for Sharia Law courts . What about racist? CALL ME RACIST! Oh wait... You can't call me that because we're both brown...