singh987

ISingh, Science works and you can prove it because you can DO the tests yourself, Sikhi too will work if you DO the tests!!! I wasn't trying to invoke a discussion about science and religion or imply that science can't exist with religion, on the contrary, sikhi proves many modern scientific phenomena that are just coming into light. You want to see Sikhi? I have no clue what context you want to see Sikhi working - but I recommend you watch this clip. ... Watch both parts.Forget sikhi, nothing will work for you if you don't make any effort. Let me boil it down for you in simple terms, What I'm saying is, no-one apart from yourself and the almighty akalpurakh can help you. If you for desire someone to come to your rescue, pray to the lord to send someone, else, continue to wait your entire life without making any effort... Modern day Sikhi isn't without it's demons, but that is mainly due to the diluted version of Sikhi most people follow and the Manmukh's who pose as Gurmukh's in today's society. Anyway, I think I've made my point, if you want help on specific issue's point them out and I'll try to assist where I can, but don't expect to get PHD level answers if you've not even gone though elementary education.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. Veerji, Our sweet sikhi is not free of "apparent" controversies.. There's many more issues that you haven't listed... EG, Mool Mantar, Gurdgaddi (Naam Dhaari's), Dasam Granth, I could go on for a long time!... My question to you is, how many of these conspiracies will you try to satisfy before you make your mind up? It is a sad state of affairs, I agree with you that people have deviated from their actual purpose, instead we're trying to accumulate dhan (even land is a manukhi asset) in one form or another. Your spiritual journey is your own, like me, you will have up's and down's (just like everyone else) but it happens with the accordance of akaalpurakh's hukam. If you look deeper into issue's which concern you I'm certain you will find a resolve. To be frank, I've stopped caring about what anyone else is doing or thinks... Just trying to remember the almighty akaalpurakh is a big enough task... That's ALL that you need to aim towards, take one step towards akalpurakh, he takes a thousand towards you. "sabh kish ghar mehi baahar naahee | Everything is within the home of the self; there is nothing beyond. baahar ttolai so bharam bhulaahee | One who searches outside is deluded by doubt. gur parasaadhee jinee anthar paaeiaa so anthar baahar suhaelaa jeeo |1| By Guru's Grace, one who has found the Lord within is happy, inwardly and outwardly. ||1||" Stop looking to find proof of spiritual existence in other people, if you DID manage to get into a chadri kalaa gursikh's sangat, rarely will anyone reveal themselves to you. Look for proof of spirituality within your self. You openly admit your own shortcomings, yet you expect (just like everyone one else!) the lord to reveal everything to you, without having put in any effort to reap such rewards yourself. I think of it as this way, all relationships work on a give and take basis, yet when it comes to the lord, people find it acceptable to just take take take... you HAVE to give something back too! I won't ramble on... There are no problems in life other than the one's your mind and material desires try to create. One more thing, you say you doubt religion itself and not sikhi... Do you doubt science too? I guess not - but you've probably never gone out to prove any theories yourself right? It's only a matter or perspective and where you put your trust. This is why it's called "faith". Gurfateh.

Yea, it can be mind boggling to understand! What I meant was, why are people put into the cycle after creation? (it has to be under his hukam right?) so I guess I was asking, once I, the entity am created, i'm put in the cycle - without having done anything? - in accordance to his will.. he creates me, he tests me... :s lol, I guess some things can never be understood! or at least not till the right avastha is reached.

Thats a good way to look at it paaji, but, if cycle of birth and death is the effect, then what is the cause? Why am I in it!

The way I'm learning is through repetition.. I *almost* know my entire Nitnem off by heart, to get this far I've gone from reading from Gukta/Pothi Sahib, to listening to the Bani and reciting alongside.. There's no easy way to do it.. just start the process however you feel right paaji and watch the magic happen!! Gurfateh!

Anyone else have any views? I thought this was a very good question raised by the poster. It's weird that everyone makes like 20 replies to useless and pointless topics, but no-one takes part in a worthwhile discussion!!

Yes Amrit, look how much love the muslim community shows for us! I'm overwhelmed by it. /sarcasm

The original poster in my view has a valid point.. although his portrayal of the situation is somewhat exaggerated and blown out of proportion. Yes the islamification of the western world is a concern for all.. BUT... think, are the powers-that-be unware of this? - of course not! There is no way that the elite are going to welcome anyone to take control of their world... OP, Muslims AIM to spread islam and are often encouraged to have multiple marriages and many children to increase their numbers.. Use your common sense, they don't need to spread islam in an already muslim country - that's why they emigrate to the west! Islam is being pushed hard by its supporters and followers, but it is loosing it's core values in its rapid growth. Most people don't have a clue what their religion actually asks them to do!! Western societies laid the foundations of their defence long ago! They are cunning, organised and calculated. They ARE retaliating, and WILL not loose control of their countries.. Look @ the image of islam that is presented in the media... when is it ever praised!! As Sikhs, it's a concern for us either way - we're threatened from BOTH parties! Sorry OP, but I cannot see the british ever implementing sharia in the UK!

The way it has always been explained to me is, that, you are born into the this world in accordance to your past karam - and that kudrat, places you in the environment in which you are most likely to succeed, thereby giving you the shot at the true way of life.. A learned singh told me to think of it as natural selection! So - if your pot of bhagti is almost full, kudrat will only give you the necessary number swaas that you need or have earned for this human life.. if you fail in your purpose you go back into the cycle. People have bad lifestyles because of 'free will' they basically fall into the classic traps set up by maya/5 bhoots and deviate from their true purpose in life... I don't think the ethos behind the 84 joons is that your salvation is delayed. The concepts of time, space and age need to be looked at from sikhi's perspective - Think of this, your soul, if you believe is an essence of god (or light of god) then it has no age - it is as old as the lord himself and it will eventually immerse into the lord. Therefore, even the slightest moment spent 'separate' from the one alakpurakh cannot be quantified or perceived by us... Going through 84 joons in my opinion is more about kurdat exerting it's power and disappointment at us for failing the test of life.. Let's face it no man is going to be able to comprehend kudrat,karam,and maya completely! I too had similar questions - but have given up seeking answers because there is no point!!!!! Why did god create me specifically? (it was his will? why did he need to do this?) what did I do to forget god and why did he let this happen? I think you have to draw the line at some point and simply have 'faith'. It's human nature and coded into our very genes that we try and understand the workings of the world and the almighty! If I or another person satisfies your thirst for knowledge today, you will draw up new doubts/questions in your mind very soon and start pursuing them.. at least that's what happens to me, It's the way we work!! But veerji, there is no point in doing this - it's not going to achieve anything, our time is better spent in remembering the almighty!

Ah, I'm glad you said this paaji.. This is like a double edge sword for me. Do you believe that there is a 'soul' in plants? - I think they're producers, created to sustain us, ie.. it's ok to eat them/their fruit. if they too are 'soulful' creatures then, my whole argument of vegetarianism is thrown out of the window.. lol ergo causing more distress to me!

How does prophecies and Hukam of Waheguru go against each other. And bring the shabads that reject prophecies. This atheist way of thinking is clouding alot of Sikhs minds. You can have a good read of this thread right here... Everyone will draw their own conclusions, I guess I don't think prophecies sit well with the core principles of gurmat, as highlighted in discussions in the above thread. As far as Baani against prophecy is concerned, I will look. I'm certain I have heard some bachans which accommodate my thinking. But if you can reference any baani that says it's ok to predict events, or predict re-births, please do share. But the simple concept (in my eyes) of his hukam is that it is HIS HUKAM, he can change it whenever and however he wants - prophecy wouldn't accommodate a change in the fortold event because then it wouldn't come true. (I hope I have made sense) Please don't call me an atheist just because I am not as enlightened as you. I am an amrit-dhaari Guru Ka Sikh, and that's how I demand to be addressed. If I am wrong, I bow my head to my almighty creator and ask for forgiveness. Since you clearly know better than me, why don't you help me out as well? Veer ji, don't insult me when I haven't tried in any way, shape, or form to insult you. If I have unknowingly caused offence, I apologise, that was not my intention!

Glad you got my point! Dhan Waheguru! Righty, well if we focus back on topic, our initial discussion was about the 'return' of Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa.. (quick summary to get back on track!) My points were: I believe Gurbaani doesn't accept/believe in prophecies - because we believe in the hukam of the almighty. Sant jee's return was fabricated to calm the sangat at the time but people stuck with it and took it to another level. Thirdly - Why would sant ji - with his level of pyaar for sikhi go gupt for sooo long!! I personally think it's disrespectful to think of such an individual in such a way. Finally - we need to re-focus and start taking action... rather than hoping that sant jee will return as predicted. You put forward the argument: Sant ji is waiting for the right time to return (therefore, saying that he WILL return) Sant Ji will return to establish Khalsa Raaj You also indicate that gurbani accepts/believes in prophecies. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would like to know - with respect to baani from SGGS Ji, if as a sikh, I should accept/ believe in prophecies. Debate simply works by refuting what the 'other' party says with evidence to support your counter-argument. So, you can simply address my above arguments! :BL: EDIT: I just wanted to say.. here's some more food for thought. Sant jee have been 'gupt' for a long time now, he is, afterall human. Think of how thier shareer would have aged.. How long will sant jee be waiting for the right time!!!

That statement doesn't answer my query. Please don't change the focus of the thread. All I want to know: is what I believe wrong? As a fellow sikh, you should try to assist and eradicate my query! The only reason I asked for reference from SGGS ji is so that if I am indeed wrong, I can use gurubani to guide myself and other mislead souls. Sri Dasam Granth, does not have gurgaddi... and is a controversial topic for many people. What you're trying to induce is a completely different topic of discussion. Paaji, if you can't help me, don't respond. wait for someone with sufficient knowledge to come along.

My dear paaji, who can know the will of the almighty but the almighty himself?! I completely accept that he MAY CHOOSE to share his will with his gursikh. But this would be a rarity.. someone who knows the will of the almighty, then you have to think, does the almighty also wish for what he has revealed to be shared with the rest of the world? - Sounds familiar to me, infact this reminds me of our guru sahibaans! Please back up your claim with references from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj.