sikhiseeker

I didn't know we 'left off' anyhwere. I thought it was done and dusted that I was right and you were wrong? End of.

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LOL, right or wrong lol? Veer you have some serious ego issues. I emphasised my point that devte/devia are of not human form, to which you never replied?

Who awards you being right or wrong, or winning a argument in your eyes? Your ego?

I find it funny how your disgusted with holi, Khrishna and the devte/devia and "think" they do not exist, yet you hold on to yourself being a "jatt sikh" stongly, confining yourself to a caste, created by the Hindu devte/devia themselves!? Confusing and once again, very contradictory in regards to the points you make on this site in various topic.

Well I certainly overdid it with the Pepsi and Guava juice. Not to mention too many crisps. But, other than that, none of us in the house eat the flesh of animals so my wife made a lovely paneer di sabji. I overdid that too, in terms of eating because it really was delicious. Then, we all, as a family unit, played together with the games my boys received for xmas. We probably enjoyed that a bit too much too.

My god :wow: we really are unreligious heathens now arn't we.

You're right....this xmas tree monkey business is the first step to immorality and gluttony.

:blink2:

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Great to hear you all had so much fun, however you might want to watch eating in excess for the benefit of your taste buds, it's a good lesson for kids too.

Anyway, back to where we left off......

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Veer ji this beautiful quote of gurbani is talking about Akal purakh being manifest in human form, not shiva, Khrisna or Durga mata. Again, these entities are not human form, but a different creation if how the messenger of death, is of a different creation to us humans.

Veer Jagsaw Singh ji, I know your probably all partied out with all your christmas celebrations, but as ever, awaiting for your reply, again.

Does this not count as Gurbani ?

"How can we accept God coming into this world in human form?The Siddhas (people who try to attain spiritual powers by living in jungles) are tired by sitting with their eyes closed to find and see God but are been unable to" (Shabad Hazaray, Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

Veer ji this beautiful quote of gurbani is talking about Akal purakh being manifest in human form, not shiva, Khrisna or Durga mata. Again, these entities are not human form, but a different creation if how the messenger of death, is of a different creation to us humans.

Brother let me be clear from the onset, on this matter you know I am now treading on territory that hitherto I have failed to tread. You know me well by now and you know I usually limit myself to discussions of mundane worldly things, such as social history etc. So, bearing that in mind, I'm continuing this discussion with you for 2 reasons. Firstly, because I have a desire to learn from you and secondly, because your nature thus far has suggested that you deserve the common decency of a meaningful and thoughtful discussion.

Now this is where I am coming from : My understanding and appreciation of Gurbani manifests itself by looking at it with my historian eyes. Given that historical context I have, for example, understood why many of the great Bhagats, included in SGGS ji, have often used various Hindu dieties in their verses. See this is where it gets not only complicated but also dangerous when one remembers the naivity and general un-education of the Punjabi masses.

They used the names of Hindu dieties for a purpose, and that purpose was that it would get the attention of and thus resonate with the intended receivers of the message....i.e the Punjabi masses. The trouble is now, many centuries later, many Sikhs see the numerous references to Krishna, ram etc and conclude that it must mean how Gurus believed in them (as Gods) too.

I have a habit, Sikhseeker, I have learn't, of leaving you unfulfilled. This time, I shall take my leave by fullfilling my end of the bargain and directly answering your question of when and where it says Sikhs do not belive in Avatars...i,e God in human form...i.e when you ask : "Please upload quotes of gurbani or sikhi ithias/sakhia where sikhi rejects the existence of the devte/devia" :

Incarnated beings do not know His limit. The Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God, is infinite. - (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 894)

In each and every age, He creates the kings, who are sung of as His Incarnations. Even they have not found His limits; what can I speak of and contemplate? - (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 422

Millions of incarnations of Vishnu and Shiva, with matted hair yearn for You, O Merciful Lord; their minds and bodies are filled with infinite longing. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 455)

There were ten regal incarnations[2] of Vishnu; and then there was Shiva, the renunciate. He did not find Your limits either, although he grew weary of smearing his body with ashes. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 747)

How can we accept God coming into this world in human form?The Siddhas (people who try to attain spiritual powers by living in jungles) are tired by sitting with their eyes closed to find and see God but are been unable to. (Shabad Hazaray, Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

Veer ji,

Merry Christmas first of all, I hope you and your children are having a great day.

Thanks for the quotes, however gurbani still does not state that the devte/devia do not exist. They are an extra terrestrial race of a different biological and intellectual level than us humans. Their understanding and abilities has lead us to deem them devte/devia and as a result worship them, however worship should be of Akal purakh. Worship and praise are too different things.

These beings being deemed much more intelligent than us, still re subject to the five vices. However their presence has been felt through all ancient civilisations in different forms being malevolent and beneficent under many names.

Again, gurbani does not state anywhere that they do not exist, my emphasis being on the point that they are not of human form.

Gurbani talks about this form, as to state how another, more intelligent creation, who we deem to be gods to be in the same boat as us and being nothing if with the energy of Akal purakh waheguru.

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wow, it's amazing how different climate conditions in different countries change the appearance of its people so much...especially looking at the pics of the Iranian Sikhs.

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sangat ji, please all listen to this dharmic geet, you to jagsaw Singh, if I can drag you away from your Christmas celebrations for just a few minutes lol....

What makes you think they were not with Vaheguru when on this Earth? Vaheguru is the Husband and the union of marriage happens with Guru Sahib's kirpa to be married with Vaheguru. No one is telling people to be crying their eyes out all day. It is a time of reflection for Sikhs. A time to understand Sikh history of the battles and sacrifice Sikhs and the Gurus made for the Khalsa Panth at this time. And not to stuff your face with food and drinks and gossip among the family and friends. It is no secret this is how punjabis spend their time on Christmas break. Sikhs complain, I have no time to dedicate time toward learning the deeper roots of Sikhi. Now at this time of the year the Sikh has time, but he is not interested in contemplating over Gurbani. Instead he is more interested in the maya of the world. Sit the kids down beside you and learn and teach the kids something about Sikhi. Instead of teaching them of Saint Nickolas. Give them the virtuous teaching of the 8th Guru dedicated his young age and life to the sick. Anyone can give a gift, but giving your life to Vaheguru has not been taught to Sikh kids or many parents. Parents have in their mind of their children growing up to be doctors, lawyers, engineers, other respected professionals. Never do parents say I want my children to be sacrificed as the Guru gave his children for my freedoms or let my child be dedicated to learn Gurbani from day one and become a Giani. The thinking is my kids can learn Gurbani when they grow up. Making Sikhi a part time job and becoming a professional a dream they live and breath all day for their kids.

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Veer ji, I found your post very inspiring and written passionately. I also love the ideology of us having only one union, the union with Akal purakh waheguru as it states it so beautifully in sheikh farids saloks.

The Sahibzade were married to death, marriages are suppose to be happy. We should be happy that they are with Waheguru again.

Veer ji, I understand your point, however the sahibzada were not married to death, this is a methaphorical way of looking at the shaheedi of our sahibzada. After all, we are all the bride of Akal purak waheguru and not death. Yes, they did merge back with waheguru which is a celebration in contrast to which method they were martyred by. They were gains and losses at this particular time within the sikh calendar. But we shouldn't forget at which cost we can call ourselves today, Sikhs. We should remember why these mahaan sikh have the title shaheed, through the shedding of physical blood and sacrifice, sometimes being missed by the metaphors. Our sikhi is at the cost of this blood, innocent children, men and women of all ages under the name of the Khalsa panth.

Educate me please. I'm finding it difficult to understand how SGGS ji could say, or even insinuate, that god has taken human form among us (avatar). Your second sentence (above) is what Sikhi teaches us...i.e that Waheguru is in us all, but to say waheguru took on a specific human body and form seems to be the anithesis of Sikhi.

Chocolate eggs for the kids and hot cross buns for me.......because, of course, nothing says 'jesus' more than a chocolate bunny egg and a bun. Thanks for asking.

Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji mahraj tells us that Akal purukh is within all creation and separate to the creation, including the devte/devia...it was mankind which made the devte/ devia avtar. But none of our guru sahiban or SGGS ji have stated that they do not exist?!

You limit Akal Parukh waheguru in thinking that waheguru has not took human form, yet all living matter is of wahegurus form and creation, how is this against the thesis of sikhi?

Yes, the devte/devtia have their personal flaws and are victims also of all the 5 vices like us, which points out that no creation is perfect, only the creator. However through Naam one can gain mukhti.

Through the nirgun and Sargun state of waheguru, the god particle is within all matter.

So you celebrate all the Christian calendar in a Christian country? Or just Easter and Xmas?

Pity you haven't got mata gujri kaur and the chote sahibzada on your mind, just excitement for you and your family, at this happy jolly time with that happy fella in red....as you keep telling us all!

Please upload quotes of gurbani or sikhi ithias/sakhia where sikhi rejects the existence of the devte/devia, we can open another post so as other sikh can post their knowledge on the subject matter.

I am sure that we are all mature adults here, so can we leave aside the trivialities and get back on track?

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Veer ji, have you came across the ancient alien theory?

He's a Jewish boy from the East End and was chairman of Tottenham for some time, I believe. The Apprentice is a lot more about entertainment than finding someone credible to be honest. The show has lost focus over the last few years, which is a shame.

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Yea definitely, it's like some of the tasks just would not happen like how they do on the how in real day today. But I gotta say, I did enjoy it a few years back.

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I will have to watch it with a different mind set next time. I must be mising something. Alan Sugars Jewish right?

Gursikhs used to carry out Nitnem/Abhyaas of 'Pandriyaa' in these days from 1st Poh to 15th Poh.

It was carried out in Loving remembrance of Great Sacrifice done by Family of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sahib in these first two weeks of Poh. Guruji's Four Sons, Mataji and Beloved Gursikhs (Including 3 Pyaare) attained Shaheediya in these days. These were the days which were considered highly spiritual and Powerful by Gursikhs as it is believed Shaheedi Faujan do beant Kirpa on Gursikhs who do abhyaas in these days.

Maryada which was followed by Gursikhs -

Amritvela, Naam Abhyaas, Baani Jaap starting at 1 am.

Read as much Baani as possible in Day time.

Do Kirtan and Vichaar of Guru Sahib's and Shaheeds Itihaas in Evening.

Eat Less , Sleep Less , More Baani and Sewa.

Staying away from TV/Cinema/Movies etc.

No marriages were held in Puratan times (till 80's) in Month of Poh.

No Celebrations/Bhangra/Shaguns.

Staying away from Physical relations with Husband/wife( Stay Jati-Sati).

Practise Control over Kaam/Krodh/Lobh/Moh/Ahankaar.

Remember Sahibzadey and Shaheeds in Ardas and Feel their Presence.

(It helps Mind get over Earthly Pleasures and Bonds and take Surat to Next World, thus ending Fear of Death).

Those who are Mone and not much into Sikhi must also USE these days in getting closer to Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sahib and Shaheed Singhs of Panth.

Dont Cut your Hair in thes days.

Dont Shave.

Dont Eat Meat/Eggs, dont take any type of Drugs, Dont drink Alcohol, dont Indulge in Partying etc...

Bibiya please dont wear make-up.

Dress Simply and Soberly.

THIS IS THE LEAST WE CAN DO IN THESE DAYS OF 'GREATEST SACRIFICE' TO Remember Our Beloved Satguru Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Great Elder Brothers of KHALSA PANTH. We can never repay their sacrifice , but we can remember them and try to serve Sikhi for which they suffered so much.

In these days, tell Kids and Youth and even to Non-Sikhs about Guru Gobind Singh Ji , Sahibzadey, Mata Gujri Ji, Great Family of Baba Mani Singh Ji (with 16 Shaheeds in these days like Bhai Bachittar Singh, Bhai Uday Singh and others), about 3 Pyaare , 40 Warriors of Chamkaur Sahib, about dedication of Bhai Moti mehra and Sacrifice he did, Sewa and Shaheedi of Bibi Saran Kaur, Shaheedi of Bibi Anoop Kaur. Most Glorious Chapter of Sikh History was written in these 15 days

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Great informative post, thanks!

nah past history of the program over many years

I thought the guy last year was pretty good, can't remember his name though. Whats the obvious reason why they wouldn't win? Or have I been watching a total different program lol?

Most of the contestants are chosen specifically for entertainment purposes. I remember Alan Sugar being disappointed with the calibre of apprentices because they all end up having careers as presenters or as broadcasters.

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Yea that's true. Like that Greek girl from the last series, I don't think I have ever heard any winning contestant do anything special, unlike Dragons Den, what a success story for Levi Roots.

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I don't find The Apprentice racist at all, however the level of business acumen this series has gone deeply down, kinda childish at times.

but then again the pakistanis also are obnoxious and undermining too ... and they would never get the job ...for obvious reasons ...

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Bit of a huge assumption based on nationality?

Guys, just received email from the ebayer, and she has said, she has removed the rumalla.

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Great job brother!

Well boo hoo. Thats so sad.

No. Holi is mostly about getting drugged up, having a green light to molest females and general ribaldy. If thats your idea of 'family' fun, then I can only conclude you're either a member of the Adamms or Manson family.

Because our tenth master, knowing far more than you about the disgusting nature of holi, specifically mentioned 'Holi' as something we should not partake in.

Any more silly questions ?

Oh you silly little man. Sikhs do not believe in "avatars" as god coming down in human form. So when Sikhi mentions the word 'krishna' it does so as a metaphor, for example from SGGS ji:

"The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods".

The message being twofold, to the masses at that time who believed in a krishna as an avatar...i.e god in human form, that Waheguru is as much the cows in the woods as he is krishna and what you call god is immaterial...be it Allah, Krishna, God etc..

:omg: Is THAT what you've been asking for sikhseeker ? Stats for 99% ?

Surely you knew I was waxing lyrical when I picked the highest percentage figure I could, didn't you ?

Surey you understand how, given that most people (in the UK) don't do anything 'Jesusy' on xmas it was fair to say 99% ?

No, you see. That's the whole point, You have made a huge assumption based on your own understanding and environment, which in this case you simply can't because you do not know the real percentage which in your view is 99%, but really it's not. In your locality, you may live in a more ethnic area however I don't and in my area many people celebrate Christmas Religiously. That's why your opinion is fundamentally flawed, as again it is Mann mammatt and against the grain of the rehat maryada.

Also, the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji mahraj does not state that the devte/devia never existed. It is not a metaphor, it simply means that Akal purakh waheguru is in all creation, even the devte/devia.

Again, what you got planned for Easter?

You learn your history.

I got a funny feeling you might be one of those that takes his 'facts' from wikipedia so might well come back again quoting some lovely wholesome family-friendly story about the moon etc. You'd be wrong to do so but that is the limit of your knowledge of 'history' isn't it my friend ?

No Sikhseeker, you're obviously having problems reading what I've written in the English language. I clearly stated that those who keep equating this lovely jolly time for our children to open up their presents and have a little tree with the disgusting ribald festival of 'holi' have clearly "lost their way".

If I remember correctly Sikseeker, you asked if it was then ok for Sikhs in Punjab to have xmas trees and I clearly gave you an answer , i.e the 'horses for courses' answer.

Was the answer so good that you'd like it repeated a second time ?

You arogantly respond to peoples posts by insulting their intelligence like how you have just done to Akalifauj on his knowledge, yet you will not give a link to the stats of your "99.99%" of people not celebrating Christmas in a religious way? You missed this answer put numerous times, however I'm waiting for another insulting reply from you, or is it gonna be a "no comment" again because your at the tip of clinching and winning this "argument" lol. You also never answered on your integration within British society and culture of the Pub? Please refer back to my post and give a full response to all my questions.

Stats please?

I also find it amusing how you, on this site like to shun other people who as yourself, live by their caste and culture and try to fit it in with sikhi. I also like your pick a mix rehat maryada. The very fact that you think that your a walking, historical fact knowing, learning bank for our children is funny.

Anyway, what you doing for Easter bro?

It is incredibly cretinous to bring 'holi' into any conversation about xmas trees.

Holi is a crass, obscene and ribald carnival of immorality. No person of any moral fibre, whether religious or not, would partake in it. Its origins are obviously the commeration of krishna's orgy conquests of the cow-girls but the way it is commemerated is almost as disgusting as the thing that is being commemorated itself :Drugged-up mental mayhem.

They way some of you here are continously equating this despicable 'festival' with the practice of our children being jolly and happy by opening their little presents and having a little xmas tree demonstrates very well, I think how many of you have lost your way in a very very sad and surprising way.

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You refrain from answering specific posts directed specifically to you in regards to your opinion of how you think any sikh opposed to the celebration of Christmas within a sikh household is manmatt having "lost their way".

You refuse to comment as you think the mods will delete your post or indeed the whole thread as you thing you have something to say which will "win the argument"?

Why after not answering the questions I asked you, twice, to which you have stated that you will not comment again on this topic TWICE, would you now post your opinion, AGAIN LOL!?

If your back posting on this topic, refer back to my post directly to you and please respond.

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Great post veer ji.

What about the caste issues in our kaum? What about inter-faith marriages? What about gender selection in punjab? We are the ones dieing out right now !

Yea good point. We ain't the most progressive kaum at the mo especially when panjanb is addicted to all you stated above and pakandi babeh, alcohol and drugs.

The Dasam Granth states: 'Humanity is one, although in appearance it differs.' This is in direct contrast to the notion that humanity is one, but some portions of it is more superior than others due to certain beliefs and principles which it holds. Here is an example, the Koran states: 'the only religion acceptable to Allah is Islam...' We see a similar case with other religions as well. The basic crux of such ideologues are based on the notion that it is entirely feasible, and pragmatically possible to achieve an Utopia, which we now know is nothing more than sheer imbecility. What are some counter arguments which can be used against this jaundiced view of selected nation/faith etc?

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All the Abrahamic religions really are based on this, all of them thinking they are the chosen ones, however Christianity and Islam differ alittle from Judaism as they rely on conversion where as Jews reproduce Jews by multiplication of the nation.

I can't think of an argument for this, however the ancient alien theory is really interesting which may lead to ancient people thinking that they were the chosen ones in order for "Gods" and "Goddesses" to come down and progress their living standard and even their DNA by sexual reproduction, as the Book of Enoch States, how the fallen angels slept with the daughters of man. In the same way, malevolent and benevolent extra terrestrials could may have sown this seed of thought....maybe?