Moogle1542
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Everything posted by Moogle1542
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Oh God, you've been explained this by admin with 3 separate full stops and you still haven't understood? LOOOL how dumb can one person get? It's even in blue so you can't miss it. I shoulda seen this before I replied back, there is clearly no help for you.
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PLEASE, I HUMBLY REQUEST THAT WE KEEP THE TOPIC OF MEAT OUT OF THIS DISCUSSION AS IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY QUESTION. IF I MAY REPEAT MYSELF, I AM ASKING THE VEGETARIAN COMMUNITY AS TO WHETHER THE TREATMENT OF CATTLE IN THE INDUSTRIALIZED WEST VIA DAIRY FARMING IS ACCEPTABLE, AND IF NOT, SHOULD WE BECOME VEGAN? OR IS THERE AN ALTERNATIVE ANSWER? THANK YOU.
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Yes. I do. They're not hard to find. I'm not sure what's so remarkably funny about that? Yes because I have a sense of maturity and attempt to engage in 'discussion'. Also, that's a wonderful assumption to make, especially on the basis that I've never worn leather in my life. Aren't you a smart cookie? Shoulda put your super powers to better use and prevented 9/11 instead. Pretend we're better? If you actually bothered to read the thread, there has been discussion between veggies, vegans & meat-eaters, all a mature exploration of each others view points on this topic. Some have agreed, some have disagreed, all have been treated respectfully. Then there's you who has one of the finest ego and superiority complexes I've ever witness on the internet (on the internet of all places LOL now that is hilarious!). 'Oh everyone look at me and my opinions, I'm right, you're all wrong, me me me me, because I eat meat'. Well done. You are a fine example of being SIkh. We should just upgrade you to Guru instead, ay? And finally, I'm still not sure why you're even here? This discussion has NOTHING to do with eating meat. It was a question to vegetarians about whether SIkhi can justify the treatment of animals in the dairy industry. Why you insist on barking like a mad dog about your meat eating ways in a topic for vegetarians like an illiterate fool is beyond me. If you eat meat - why are you persistently active in a topic for vegetarians? Man, if this way an essay question at University (the place where educated people go to have intellectual & academic discussions) then from an academic standing you would have failed tremendously. Let me just explain in a way that hopefully your mind will understand: discussion noun the action or process of talking about something in order to reach a decision OR TO EXCHANGE IDEAS. a conversation or DEBATE about a specific topic. debate noun a formal discussion on a particular matter ... in which OPPOSING ARGUMENTS are put forward . So I'm not sure where you're getting this 'I'm better than you' scenario from. Perhaps you should lie down and refresh you mind, see a doctor because you're obviously deluded, or take an adult English class. Thanks your input. It's truly been enlightening.
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I believe it is only specifically kutha meat
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We can only do our best and lead by example. I'm sure he is old enough to know the difference between petty comments and intelligent discussion. It is his choice to make as to how he wishes to present himself and his views. He will only make himself look like a childish fool.
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He is the type that is just here to stir trouble, rather than approach the matter like an intelligent academic, or just a decent human being with manners. It is best to just ignore such people.
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I hope you did not MISUNDERSTAND (edited!) what I meant. I completely respect your opinion on the matter and I am glad you have shared it, as that is exactly what I was looking for. I thank you for that I may have misinterpreted your comments as pushing aside valuable information, if that was not the case then accept my apologies!
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None. Cause I use non-animal tested products, so.. useless comments that offer no intellectual worth to this discussion are even more hilarious. Cute.
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If I may jump in - as a historian myself it is wonderful to come across such sources that provide insight into various scholarly viewpoints. You should not feel compelled to have to believe the view of another historian/scholar, or offended by what they say, but I hope that you will at least enjoy the intellectual & academic worth of such sources! Guruji after all was a teacher & student himself Such content encourages further education and deeper understanding of the matter - I for one am glad it was posted! :biggrin2:
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I agree with this. However the topic is not a matter of whether or not milk is allowed in Sikhi, as I know it explicitly is, but whether the treatment of cattle in today's world, particularly the industrialized West, is acceptable by Sikh standards, and if not what can we do to overcome it? EDIT: When speaking of overcoming the issue, my personal response is to go vegan, however I would not be against to the use of milk if I come across more ethical standards. I welcome everyone else's opinions and decisions regarding the matter. Thank you.
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Are you actually *edited*? Are you incapable of reading a string of words put together? I'm not here showing Sikhs how wrong they are, I asked a question. The thread topic is a QUESTION, not a STATEMENT. I'm asking for people's views and opinions, not telling them what they should do. You can't even grasp primary school level English and you want me to trust your interpretation of Bani? I don't think so. Perhaps you should go back to school and learn the functioning of a question mark (thats the thing at the end of the thread title, in case you didn't know). Also, don't act so righteous and claim you will educate someone with Bani and then take that back and mock them instead. Try not drag Bani into your egotistical and dishonest actions.
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Apologies, I am new here, but what would cause the thread to become closed?
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Apologies for asking, but could you please point it out for me please? Thank you.
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Perhaps in India or in rural areas this would not be such an issue, but unfortunately I speak as someone living in the industrial West where this happens. Perhaps this post speaks more to them than it would to those back in the Punjab pind Thank you.
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I'm sure Gurbani teaches us that a cow is a living creature, a four year old could you a cow is a living creature. It is an animal, and it is alive, and this topic is about cows. Now unless you're going to show me Gurbani that says a cow is not a living creature, I no longer understand your participation here.
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Because Sikhi teaches us to respect and value all living creatures? Yet they are still being exploited? If that's not an issue to you, I don't know why you're here. There are many things that may 'never end'. Racism, sexism, rape, murder, shall we consider them 'poor topics' as well? Also, what you just quoted wasn't an argument, it was a question. A very poor reply from your behalf, if anything.
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Both these things are quite difficult to do. The first one really speaks for itself, I can't imagine being allowed to have a cow tied up in my back garden lol! The second seems to suggest the 'organic/free range' option, and while it does seem better than the abuse industries there are still issues that remain when it comes to calves and 'dried up' cows being sold to butchers because they have no use to the farmers. We need to remember that at the end of the day, each farmer is running a business and is trying to make money. He will get rid of anything that decreases his profits, however those things happen to be living creatures. A previous poster on the first page made mention of his organization, Khalsa Ethics, that sounded quite promising however he has not replied yet to the follow up questions. Hopefully he is able to give the answer you are looking for, but for now it seems far too good to be true.
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Yes, I think you are correct when you say these foods should be avoided. It would be ideal if this was possible, however you are also correct in saying that it is too difficult. I think the biggest difference between this and the dairy industry is that when it comes to slavery or low pay, these things can be changed and made better, however when it comes to milk then the current situation is the only way that milk can be produced on such a mass level. I think that's what makes it so bad, the fact that it can't really be made 'better' to fulfil all the demand that exists. If it stopped treating cows as commodities, then supply would decrease, and the entire industry would collapse. Of course meat is okay for some and not others, especially when it comes to need. If meat is needed for survival then that is perfectly acceptable. God knows such a situation and its circumstances, a union will not be severed when there was no other choice. God is loving and merciful. However, when meat is eaten out of greed, not because it is needed, simply because 'it tastes good and I like it', then that is when I begin to see issue with it. When it comes to other religions, well that is their own path if they are allowed to eat meat and believe it is acceptable by God. However this question was aimed for Sikhs, specifically those who are already vegetarian, and it was not a matter of whether or not it makes God happy, but a matter of how far does the SIkh view of 'respect for all living creatures' extend. Thank you.
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Yes I am aware that some do, however some do not and are vegetarian. If you are a meat eater then of course this post will have no interest to you - unless you are more empathic towards dairy industries than meat industries. Please do not comment saying 'we eat meat' so as to discredit this discussion when I'm sure you are fully aware that others do not. This post is for vegetarians, although I'm sure the discussion will welcome your opinions. Thank you.
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This is interesting, however I would have to argue against your claim that milk alternatives are 'artificial' when they can easily be made at home. Rice, coconuts and almonds are very much real superfoods and do not become 'artificial' when they are made into milks. Of course this is probably not the case with supermarket versions, theres not much you can trust these days regarding them. That being said, the sad reality is that for 99% of people the milk we use will come from the supermarket which will fund cruelty. Even if there are more 'ethical' standards available, it still keeps the demand for milk alive, which will ultimately keep the supply alive. As long as we want milk, the dairy industry will grow, and these atrocities will be allowed to happen. How important is it to keep milk in our diets over the lives of living, breathing and feeling creatures? Yes, you can provide all the nutritional benefits of milk, although there are many debates surrounding this anyway, but then how does that differ from the meat eater vs vegetarian arguments? The meat eater will argue all the nutritional benefits of meat, and the vegetarian will try to explain how there are alternatives that are just as good. Now the vegetarian is arguing all the nutritional benefits of milk, and the vegan is trying to explain how there are plant based alternatives that provide just as much nutrition. In response to your own farm, I think it is important you lay out exactly how it functions. What happens to the calves once they are taken from their mothers? What happens to cows once they are retired? Do you practice artificial insemination? How many times on average do your cows become pregnant in their lifetimes so they can give milk? Do you make sure that the calves are weaned properly and given as much of their mothers milk as they need (because after all, it is theirs before it is ours)? Once the cows have died, what do you do with their bodies? Can you ensure that your farm is 100% ethical, moral and humane? Because if it is not 100%, even if it is 99%, then there remains that 1% in which you are taking advantage of a living creature for your own gain, and I personally cannot condone such a thing.
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Also, for those who may argue that milk was part of Guruji's diet and there is mention of this in Bani (kheer etc.), or that rejecting milk will lead to rejecting prashaad etc, THERE ARE MANY, FAR HEALTHIER & TASTIER ALTERNATIVES. Coconut milk, almond milk, rice milk are but a few, all of which can be used just as effectively as dairy milk to make the foods we love. A Sikh does not have to give up their lifestyle or pleasures (because who doesn't love barfi?) but they can give up a lifestyle that funds tremendous cruelty. Perhaps I am asking for too much, but there would be no greater joy regarding this issue than to see Sikh protests and discussions, and ultimately the official decision to end the use of dairy milk. For now I just hope to raise awareness and hope that the trend catches on amongst the Sangat.
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This has been bothering me for some time now. It is as the title says, why does our respect for life stop with vegetarianism? When I suggest Sikhs should consider becoming vegan, it is become of the horrendous atrocities that occur within the dairy industry. Cows are forcefully artificially inseminated so that they get pregnant and lactate (produce milk) Their calves are taken from them so they don't drink the profits and then slaughtered for veal. They spend their whole lives in chains and being abused. Becoming pregnant and producing milk so often that raw milk is full of blood, puss and infection. They are injected with hormones and bred so that their udders swell to unnatural sizes, causing them immense pain, just so they are able to produce more.. Is this right? Can Sikhi justify this? I've reached a point where I've started to laugh at Sikhs that claim to be righteous because they are vegetarian because to kill for meat is wrong, but don't want to hear about dairy abuse. Is torturing for milk acceptable? It would be more humane to just kill the animal and take its meat rather than let it live and make it suffer! Perhaps Guruji never condemned the use of milk because perhaps in their time it was different. Perhaps there was not this evil level of greed that exists today. People just took what they needed/could from their farm cows. But times have changed and the treatment of cows in dairy farms is absolutely barbaric. How can we as Sikhs allow this to happen? The truth about dairy is no secret. There are volumes of information available, just as there are about the truth of meat industries. Yet why have Sikhs not taken an official stand to no longer be part of this cruelty? How can we happily be just vegetarian when true respect and value for life comes from being vegan?
