Niranjana

Khalsa is spiritual, we have covered that point off - please kindly read the posts above and refrain from SHOUTING (!) No one on this thread is challenging the qualities of Bhai Surinder Singh Sodhi. The question concerns about what happened to his killers and why many people link their gruesome murders with Sant Jee, including many pro-Sant Jee youth? Fundementally, instances like this and others are in many ways Human Rights abuses and we need to be careful of simply linking ourselves to them as some means of settling scores or seeking justice, particularly if Sikhs, whether pro-Khalistani or not, wish to seek the gross violations of Human Rights meted out to our people brought to justice.

Seeing that Bikramjit Singh and Balpreet Singh 132 appear to be away from the forum, I would request that Bilja Singh who is a learned and passionate Man on all matters Khalistan (as shown under his debate with Prabhu Singh) and Taksal to perhaps kindly set the record straight to the points arising above.

It comes from Guru Gobind Singh Ji accepting gifts / giving "asheervad" / marking his approval with the use of his Teer whilst being on his Asthaan. In Hazoor Sahib bhog and acceptance of items like Rumallas for Guru Maharaj is still blessed with a Teer. The Kirpan Bhet is adapted from here, since it is the most common shastar of the Khalsa.

This is a great and much need (and very long awaited) step from the SGPC, hopefully we can see some positive steps come from this quickly.

Akali Sodhi is right about the following: 1. The Hariavela Nihangs do exactly the same thing as the Buddha Dal nihangs - i.e. Goats are chatka'ed at their camps and Sukha is also prepared despite their leader being a tee-total vegetarian. 2. Those who like to indicate that Baba Santa is not the Jathedar, I believe you should perhaps reconsider given the following: - Baba Surjit Singh has been declared as a the NEXT Jathedar to be, and - Baba Balbir Singh Akali, although a one time detractor of Baba Santa Singh owing to the Akal Thakt incident, has now sought forgiveness and his Dal (which is the more popular one in terms of recent publicity thanks to Nihangs like Major Singh and his 101m Dumalla) has largely resolved differences with Baba Santa Singh's Dal. In addition, perhaps the sangat would also consider the following: 1. Sukha and Chatka: These are now long established practices of the Nihangs and largely accepted as part of their lifetsyle. Randip Singh has explained clearly and sensibly how these came about and I would concur that yes, that sukha is now abused, but I can't get over people's shock at its occurence, it's hardly something new, its been happening for ages - let's not forget that the Akal Thakt didn't excommunicate Baba Santa Singh for his opium addiction but for his anti-panthic choice in the rebuilding of the Akal Thakt. On this topic however, whilst the Taksal took over the job from an accepted Panthic standpoint, let's not forget that they are also responsible for its current state (i.e. no heritage value, changes from historical structure). 2. Baba Nihal Singh Baba Jee is indeed a key figure in the Panth today, however more emphasis seems to be placed on his vegetarian diet than anything else - for reasons I expressed already on the vegetarian thread, this is not short of stupid. Interestingly enough, the very (non-Nihang) supporters of Baba Jee as "jinda - shaheed" are now retracting their words following the Khalsa Heritage complex incident displaying the apparent close links of Baba Jee, the Sant Samaj and the Taksal to the Congress Government. 3. Nihangs are a joke in Punjab This is largely true in India as many "nihang jokes" are common amongst Urbanite Sikhs who view them as country bumpkins (for the record, this is not my view, I'm simply observing), moreover the Nihangs opening admit that they have renegades in their ranks giving them a bad name - speak to some chardi kala older Nihangs and they'll explain this too, owing to the custom of their Dals to accept all and sundry. This much said, let's be realistic, in Punjab the popular man is Parkash Singh Badal (given that he is VOTED in time and again within the SGPC - he hasn't placed a gun infront of people to secure his seat...) and even other groups such as AKJ are not regarded well in many Punjabi towns, where they are either referred to as the 'Vaheguru Vaheguru vale' and/or 'Pugvalia bibia' or derogatory terms like 'Pankhand Kirtani Jatha' or 'badh sit badh sit karn vale' (a reference to the heavy saas graas simran) - again before anyone gets over emotional, these are not my views only observations - in short the point being that majority opinion, whilst saying something about the large composite of any commuinity does not necessarily equal the correct opinion depending on how one analyses the situation.

Dear "khalistan_the_only_answer" if you are going to quote Bhai Desa Singh, please do so in full and not simply choose the bits YOU like (much like most fanatical sikh organisations today). The same rehitnama clearly mentions it is acceptable to eat a jhatka'ed Goat, just not in the Langar. It also mentions that before war, one may have alcohol, but otherwise not to even take its name. For the record, I'm a vegetarian, but the Gurus word is final and let's deal with that - if we are going to start bringing up issues like this shabd accordingly this or that translation indicates it is wrong to eat meat, then yes the step is going to be cut your kesh (in response to the SHOUTING Singhni above), since by YOUR logic, the next step will be to look at shabds which indicate that cutting hair or growing it are all acceptable (these can be found in Bhagat Bani and also in the Dasam Granth)...so it's not Meat-eaters who will destroy Sikhi, it YOU fanatical vegetarian types!!! Get a life and move on. Admin, benti again, lock this nonsense down and let move on to more important things. Dear "khalistan_the_only_answer" if you are going to quote Bhai Desa Singh, please do so in full and not simply choose the bits YOU like (much like most fanatical sikh organisations today). The same rehitnama clearly mentions it is acceptable to eat a jhatka'ed Goat, just not in the Langar. It also mentions that before war, one may have alcohol, but otherwise not to even take its name. For the record, I'm a vegetarian, but the Gurus word is final and let's deal with that - if we are going to start bringing up issues like this shabd accordingly this or that translation indicates it is wrong to eat meat, then yes the step is going to be cut your kesh (in response to the SHOUTING Singhni above), since by YOUR logic, the next step will be to look at shabds which indicate that cutting hair or growing it are all acceptable (these can be found in Bhagat Bani and also in the Dasam Granth)...so it's not Meat-eaters who will destroy Sikhi, it YOU fanatical vegetarian types!!! Get a life and move on. Admin, benti again, lock this nonsense down and let move on to more important things.

LK veer - I agree the Mr Tully isn't the most reliable source, that is fine - which is why we are discussing this here - however the notion of Baljeet Kaur being mutilated by her murderers (including both her breats been chopped off amongst other things) is not something that only Mark Tully indicates, in fact this has been mentioned elsewhere and also on this forum and others. "Nang Singh" (I'm sure you're not a Nang, since that would imply you are naked...but then again if you are, please don't confirm!), my point is simple: 1. Bhai Sodhi Ji was a respected member of Sant Jee's personnel - fine and his death is something that warranted investigation and a solution. 2. Today, the death of Baljeet Kaur and her associated remain unsolved, however many point the finger at the Singhs and others (sikh youth) happily accept that her murder was ordered by Sant Jee. A couple of questions arise out of this: Detractors of Sant Jee often paint him and the Kharkoos as violent figures who saw themselves as above the law, administered his own brand of law - here is a excerpt from one of his critics: <<The autocratic Bhindranwale had assumed singular jurisdiction over the guilt and innocence of a good portion of India's citizens. And to him lethal violence was a justified means of punishment for those whom he considered culpable. He was the legislature, executive and judiciary all rolled into one with complete disregard for the democratic concept of the separation of powers. The result was nothing short of 'ethnic cleansing.>> [P S Lamba] I think we can all agree that this is quite some charge levelled against Sant Jee and given recent events in the UK (re: Sikhs in the Square etc) and elsewhere seeking to bring about awareness of Human Rights and effectively "ethnic cleansing" abuses against Sikhs in India, it is quite ironic that at the same time certain people who consider themselves staunch supporters of Sant Jee regard violent actions such as the above to be justified actions and condoned by Sant Jee. I repeat again, the murder of Baljeet Kaur remains unsolved, yet certain Sikhs are keen to tie her torture and murder to Sant Jee solely on the basis of things they have heard. I feel we should clarify this situation very quickly, since it runs the risk of being another instance like the much publicised Kharkoos pulling Hindoos off buses and shooting them, only later to discover that the Kharkoos weren't even Sikhs, but people (agents) dressed up as Sikhs to malign their image - likewise if Sant Jee and/or the Sikhs aren't responsible for this hideous crime, then let's be clear about what we say here. If Sant Jee is responsible, then it is another matter altogether - and we need to understand why. Again, I appeal to our more learned members in the field of Khalistan to please come forth and set the record straight.

Bandit Queen.

militan4evabains, thanks for your update, this sounds more plausible, given the concerns I aired above, however I would be grateful if someone more familiar with the finer details could clarify this once and for all (perhaps members like Bikramjit Singh or Balpreet Singh 132, who have more intimate knowledge of 1980s and the human rights abuses in Punjab could share their knowledge). The next question that arises though, if militan4evabains is the conclusive point, is why did the Singhs go ahead and do this without sanction from Sant Jee (who I cannot believe would have condoned such action?) and once they did it, were they not reprimanded by Sant Jee? Effectively this episode plays into the hands of those who indicate that Khalistanis saw themselves as above the police and the law and set about "jungle justice" and use this to support the actions of KPS Gill who certainly was all about "jungle justice". This is an important issue and one we should have clarified.

So are we suggesting that this women was killed by the Singhs either by burning alive or chopping up (although clearly this seems to be the concurrent theme that everyone seems to point towards including Mark Tully's book Amritsar). Whether or not it was burning or chopping - is it correct to have done this to the Woman - I find it hard to believe that a Singh or a Sant could condone such actions that too within the precints of the Harimandir Sahib. Are we absolutely sure that this was done by the Singhs under Sant Jees command and not some sort of propaganda attempt by other elements? [whatever the outcome - I remain shocked by some of the posters on other forums who seem to be "bigging up" that the Singhs "chopped 'em up proper"].

ms514, thanks for summing this up - Admins, perhaps this is an issue worth sticking alongside other "banned discussions" like raagmala etc. The Panth has made its mind up on this matter and let's leave it at that - the Akal Thakt maryada is one agreed by numerous scholars, sants, bhai sahibs and other reputable individuals, it is truly Panthic as it encompasses all groups (i.e. doesn't divide on the Raagmala issue, the keski issue or the meat issue), now if certain groups owing to their founding members walking out of panthic discussions continue with their fringe society elements, that's up to them - no matter how much they like to to claim they are panthic and support the Akal Thakt, clearly their actions indicate otherwise. Let's move onto more important items, as ms514 veer said - the 5 vices are worth more attention than these little items. Moreover, let's talk about Gurmat Veechar which is a lot deeper than eggs and fish! Try kicking off with Sidh Gohst which covers a good element of Gurmay fundamentals.

Thanks for your input LK Bhraji - Baljit Kaur is believe is the name I have read before, although her exact relationship to Bhai Sodhi Jee I'm uncertain of (not sure if she was his girlfriend or a girl who asked his help because her partner was beating her, or the lover of Sodhi's actual slayer - I've heard/read variations across all such themes), however her murder is quite clear and sadly at times unquestioned by Sikhs themselves. It wasn't simply an elimination (which is bad enough), but torture and murder, given the fact that her body was so grusomely dismembered - I would like to understand more, as to who took responsibility for this (although reading a post on Tapoban, everyone seems to be happily pointing the finger towards the Singhs?) - whatever her malicious actions were, I find it hard to believe that such a revenge attack can be even remotely justified by Gurmat.

Great pics of Bhai Surinder Singh Jee. Quick question - is the reference to the "chopping" referring to the incident of Sodhi's girlfriend who was later hacked to pieces, including severe mutilation (such as the chopping off of her breasts and other body parts)? I understand that a photograph of this women's mutilated body was then later hung outside a certain persons office (those who are more aware of the facts, please confirm details) and that this case remains unsolved to this day (although people above seem to be squarely putting the murder/slaying onto the Singhs/Sant Jee's orders?) Please could someone clarify...

Khalsa Fauj - please could you clarify what you find to be the "Snaatan Mutt/Hindu Mutt propaganda" the yugs and the numbers issue or that some people conclude from Bhai Gurdas Varan that the make up of the Gurmantar Vaheguru from the letters V, H, G and R and their respective mantars?

These accusations are very valid and should be investigated further and stopped - what I find hilarious is the manner in which this one instance has provoked a stride of anti-Ramgarhia comments, whereas not once was a single anti-Singh Sabha comment or anti-bhatra comment made when in the majority of recent cases involving the Singhs from R4SGGSJ campaign have concerned the latter (Singh Sabhas in the main), not only this but also the instances of belly dancing concerned the same group of Gurdwaras, as did the weekly violence over communal affairs, as did the on public TV violence concering tables and chairs, as did the actually abuse of an old lady in Gravesend and the list is endless, despite the accused in the later instances all bearing visible Jatt surnames, not once have we seen a backlash saying these damn jatts sound like idiots, or these Singh Sabhias are a disgrace to the Singh Sabha movement – why, I would hope because we can see beyond that and look to address the problem and not discredit the whole movement or community, however I think would be kidding myself, the truth is the majority of the posters above are themselves from such backgrounds and will never speak ill of their perceived brethren, however with the Ramgarhia case, let’s trash the entire community over one or two instances (some of which have even been remedied as per one post above)…singh sahib is right, let’s get to the root of the problem and not get side tracked with our personal vendettas.