Singhstah

Paaji, please PM me your email add, I can send you my form and statement In my personal statement I only put in my own skills and experiences, as the guidance stated I only needed to outline my suitability for the programme and I didn't feel I needed to add anything more. I covered my reasons for joining the course in answering the application form questions. Mainly how it would help me in both my career progression and other non-professional activities I am involved with.

VahegurooJiKaKhalsaVahegurooJiKiFateh Jeeo, Just wanted to let all Sikh University students know about a scheme called Undergraduate ParliaMentors, run by the Three Faiths Forum (3FF). I am one of three Sikhs and the only Amritdhari currently on the scheme, in total there are about 45 students of various faiths and beliefs. Applications for next years scheme are now open. As per the ParliaMentors website: http://www.3ff.org.uk/universities/, the scheme can be summarised as follows: Winner of the UN Award for Intercultural Innovation, our leadership development programme equips aspiring leaders at university with the skills, experiences and networks they need to advance their careers See Politics in Action: Gain a unique insight into politics with mentor support from MPs and Peers. Create Social Change: Work in trios to create social action projects with support from leading NGOs. Develop Leadership Skills: Learn through direct experience, training workshops and expert-led events. Build Lifelong Networks: Create new professional and personal links by joining an ever-expanding Alumni Network. I have enjoyed being a part of this scheme greatly, it would be excellent if more Sikhs could get involved, I would encourage you to apply if you are a University Student interested in politics and interfaith relations. Once you get involved with 3FF there are many other opportunites that arise, for example I will soon be taking part in another scheme run by 3FF which involves speaking about my experiences as a Sikh in schools dominated by one particular faith. I have enjoyed working with people of other faiths and beliefs, am looking forward to working with my mentor and its been great talking about Sikhi to others. 3FF have been extremely accomodating to me as Sikh, for example there was a residential induction for a few days, for this although vegetarian food was provided by the site, I was allowed to bring my own food from home as per my dietary requirements. If you have any questions regarding the scheme please let me know. More info: http://www.3ff.org.u...toring/details/ and apply online: http://www.3ff.org.uk/mentoring/apply/ (yes thats me, and a really bad photo I must say!) Uttam Singh

Not saying they were bad people or anything, but we should look at rehatvaan, abhiyaasi gursikhs rather than historical figures. You will never find any example of a truly dedicated gursikh wearing any form of jewellery. Jewellery is all about showing off wealth, decorating oneself, in Sikhi our beautification is in the simple baana (be it a gurmat style kurta pajama, chola or whatever) in one of the khalsa colours. Our jewellery is shastars! This is how we keep nyara (distinct) as per Guru Ji's orders. Please check out: http://www.sikhanswers.com/sikh-articles-of-faith-identity/ladies-earrings-makeup-and-jewellery/ for a more detailed answer.

There is no doubt that a Gursikh cannot eat any meat, fish egg etc. However, the fruits and veg do not contain blood, fish or bone, rather the necessary nutrients needed for the plant's growth were taken from these sources. Yes, if a Gursikh wished to farm for themselves them maybe they would make a decision to use veggie fertilisers on ethical grounds, but this would be more because of the fact something was killed to make the fertiliser, not because it would end up in the fruit/veg! If we are buying items like this from elsewhere I don't think its a big deal what was used to help grow them, you are certainly not eating any prohibited item yourself. If you wanted to abstain from eating it simply on the grounds that you don't agree animal products were used at some point, I think that while use of something that has been slaughtered is not good, to abstain from a pure vegetarian final product is going past the realm of sikhi and into some form of ethical veganism. Look at it this way, there could be all manner of insects, maybe even animals around where your fruit/veg is growing, they are dying all the time and without a doubt their blood is going into the soil or onto the fruit, there is nothing we can do about it and neither does Guru Sahib expect any action from us regarding this. Next we could say we don't know whether or not an animal was killed and thrown into the river from where our water came, what then? (the fruit and veg scenario is even further removed from the animal than the water one!) The simple rule: there is nothing at all to worry about when it comes to fruit straight from the trees and veg direct from the ground, that have not then been altered in any way once out or picked. If you look to even the strictest bibeki gursikhs, they have no hesitation in accepting raw fruit or veg. On a side note, I myself used to get a lot of different 'thoughts' about Sikhi like this one, but personally I realised these were not thoughts but mild OCD, so I would suggest while it is very important to preserve our rehat, we should be careful of bharams, it is important to up the naam abhiyas and gurbani paath to avoid this. Do ardaas for clarity.

Poster and vid don't seem to be showing in the original post, so I thought I'd post them up (please click to enlarge) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g254hIjEHk4 Location: Ramgharia Sikh Association, Masons Hill, Woolwich, London SE18 6EJ Time: 10am - 5pm Tel: 07876 237 060

Most of this is pretty much the fault of our own Sikh community, all they are doing is reacting to and moving on from the vicious hatred us so called Gursikhs gave them, something which the babay are inevitably cashing in on. Our panth has committed the worst sin of pushing people away from Sachkhandi Gurbani.

Generalisation much? Yes there's not that many Sikhs here and there are a fair share of problems (trust me i know!) but there are also many good gursikhs aswell. Just checkout the fortnightly youth show from 7 kings gurdwara on Sikh channel for instance, or the fact that the gurdwara is housing the majority of homeless Sikhs in this area every night, there are sevadars who go to see them every day, slowly helping them get back into normal. if you were watching the last east London youth show you would have seen there's even a polish gentleman growing his kesh because of the love and support he's received at the gurdwara. Also I don't know what gives you the impression that Sikhs here aren't middle class, majority are doing very well, lots of successful businesses, loads of Sikhs are and have been mayors, councillors etc.

Please read the below for why Sikhs do not eat meat: http://www.sikhanswe...hs-vegetarians/ http://www.sikhanswe...y-in-the-panth/ http://www.sikhanswe...-jhagre-shabad/ http://tapoban.org/article/54 http://tapoban.org/article/55 Topic closed as we don't allow meat discussions Sikhsangat.com takes an anti-meat eating stand.

What you say may be true, but without a doubt, this all important inner rehat is impossible to keep without the outer rehat. That is exactly why outer rehat is a prerequisite to being given naam (during amrit sanchar). To be honest its best not to make such differences between rehat. Rehat is simply Guru's hukam, all we have to do is obey, the nature of the hukam doesn't matter.

Gurbani is 100% truth, we must completely accept whatever Gurbani Sahib is saying, Guru Ji clearly states: ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜੀਐ ਕੰਮੁ ਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਪਹਿ ਆਖੀਐ ॥ Keethaa Lorreeai Kanm S Har Pehi Aakheeai || Whatever work you wish to accomplish-tell it to the Lord. ਕਾਰਜੁ ਦੇਇ ਸਵਾਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਖੀਐ ॥ Kaaraj Dhaee Savaar Sathigur Sach Saakheeai || He will resolve your affairs; the True Guru gives His Guarantee of Truth. (Ang 91) So there is no doubt that Ardaas when done properly with full faith and love (and not for anything against Gurmat) does certainly have an effect. For famous examples just think to Bhai Bidhi Chand, Baba Makhan Shah, etc. but even this is not necessary, talk to any Gursikhs and they will attest to Guru Ji answering their ardaasa(n). As for the karams needing to be lived out, Vaheguroo is the all powerful Bidhata (writer of our destiny), there is no point us trying to even contemplate karam, kismat ,etc. with our fickle intellect, Vaheguroo is capable of doing anything in any situation, he is not bound by anything. He can make us live out any karam in anyway. Here's a sakhi from the sikh sakhian section: One summer when Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was travelling, he reached a garden where he camped for the day. It so happened that the king's pir (spiritual advisor), was also camping at the same place. Thus the Pir had a chance to Satguru Ji. The pir called on Maharaj, who seated him with due courtesy by his side. There was a town nearby where a number of Sikhs of Guru Ji lived. When they heard of Maharaj's arrival at the garden, they all flocked to see the king of kings and the saint of saints with offerings of clothes, arms and money, besides food. The offerings were formally dedicated to Guru Ji by his attendants, who also prayed in their behalf for his blessings, success in temporal pursuits, protection from evil, and the boon of Naam. The pir watched the proceedings for the whole day, and then put this question to Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, "In our scriptures it is said that whatever is destined, is bound to happen. Something else can happen, only if what has been done previously is wrong. Since what has been done, cannot be wrong, there is no scope for anything else happening. So, when the Sikhs pray before you for success in their endeavours, what do they pray for, since nothing else can happen except what is destined?" After hearing the pir's question Maharaj took out his seal. He applied ink to the seal and stamped it on a piece of paper. "Pir ji, this is the answer to your question," replied Guru Ji. "Kindly explain this to me," said the pir. "The letters on the seal were already there. These have not been written now. But the writer knew that when the seal bows its head to touch the paper, the reverse letters will become straight and get stamped on it. Similarly, the Creator has made this provision in one's destiny, so that when one appear before the Guru in humility and performs service, his adverse destiny is corrected. All his problems are solved. This reversal is as per destiny, and not otherwise. Thus, whatever has been said in your scriptures is correct. Nothing less and nothing more." At this answer the pir was very happy.

A bunga (keski tied into kes) can be small too, in fact I personally find that alot of times bungas tend to be more firm when they are smaller. Use mal mal material as this sticks to the head more than the thicker material and is lighter so its much less likely to come off. I've messed about with mates, like wrestling, headlocks and stuff and my dastar has stayed on (a full dumalla with a bunga underneath). Just tie what bhai amolak singh ties in this video. He ties his keski into his kes (a bunga), then another keski on top of that. It's small aswell. But make sure that if you are not going to tie any more material over this that the external keski you tie on top of the bunga has atleast five wraps/5 yards around the head (maryada). In the video below, the second keski bhai amaolak singh ties is smaller than that as he is going to tie a full dumalla over it. Hope you enjoy your trip!

Me stating that the literal sentence 'I have given khandi ki pahul' is not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Sri Dasam Granth (yes, I acknowledge this), is irrelevent to any debate on the katha issue involving myself as; 1. I have not disregarded either Bhai Gurdas as an authority, as they are to be taken to be definite authorities, unlike historical texts, and khande ki pahul is found within Bhai Gurdas Singh Ji's vaar. 2. I did say that Guru Ji himself stating he did something as being the only way to prove that that is what he did. Once again, context, which you so love to disregard, is the key here. Anyway bhalleyo, I have put forward my veechara(n), the point of this topic was to look at the concept of katha and comparing view points, as with most conversations among sikhs it seems to have become something about proving other people wrong, which is a shame.

For fear of going too off topic, I'll keep this brief. The bani of the second bhai Gurdas (Singh) tells us about khande ki pahul. Other than that Guru Granth Sahib Ji Di bani contains references to deekhiya, recieving gurmantar, becoming a Sikh etc. the particular form may not be written but there is clear mention of the concept of becoming Guru vala. If lecture katha is not in Sri Gurbani, then clearly we can receive param gat without it. You have a wonderful knack for totally forgetting the context of things said by others. I quite explicitly raised that point in response to your baseless accusation that I do not believe the Guru, now you are trying to argue it forward totally differently. Anyway, I've answered your khande ki pahul question above. *Wonders when this topic will end*

Quite simply, if Guru Sahib himself wrote somewhere, "I did katha", and then I said no I don't believe Guru Ji did, that would be not believing the guru, not a disbelief in what you or a historian says. Using ad hominem to try to make your arguments more effective is a silly thing to do. Especially when you didn't even name any source, let alone Guru Sahib himself. As per Gurbani- the Guru himself. param gat can only be obtained through Gurbani and Naam. Once again, I have nothing to say until a Gurbani tuk can be provided which mentions katha with the meaning of a lecture by an individual. I have only replied this time to refute your baseless accusation that I, "don't believe the Guru", just because I disagree with you. Very cheap shot. I too an am a fellow amritdhari regardless of views, so there is no need for such animosity (such an accusation against another sikh IS animosity)

I realise that my original sentence which was, 'Some amendments to the translation based on Professor Sahib Singh's teeka', gave the wrong impression of what I meant to say, I have edited my post now, I meant to say that I have made some amendments to the English translation given by Sikhitothemax, using Professor Sahib Singh's teeka for the meanings instead. The translation of the shabad given in my post above is based on Prof Sahib Singh's teeka, I hope you are not suggesting Prof Ji is twisting bani!

To use any false image created by maya, be that an image of oneself a moorti or anything else, to worship or bow to Vaheguru has no place in Gurmat. As for bowing, apart from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, who we bow to out of satkaar as our living Gurdev, Gursikhs do not physically bow anywhere else, this is a clear hukam from the Panj Pyare when we take amrit. By the same token as the thoughts expressed in the original post, one could say why can't we worship or even jap the naam of anything in this creation. However this would be totally wrong. The shabad below proves that whatever we worship (even if we worship God through something, then the 'form' which we worship God through) we will become. The Guru tells us we must go back to our true home which is Vaheguru. Mool Mantar tells us the following qualities of Vaheguru, among others, as being sat (truth/unchanging), naam and having a moorat beyond death/time, beyond birth, self reliant/self illuminating. If we worship Vaheguru through anything which is not these things we will not go back into Vaheguru, instead, as stated above and in the shabad below, we will become that which we worship God through. This is why the only perfect way of worshiping Vaheguru is to meditate on the Guru himself through Gurbani and Naam as only these possess such qualities as Bani (and naam) is Nirankaar himself, as stated in Gurbani. The Guru has taught us the true way to bow to and worship Vaheguru and that is to attach ourselves to Guru Sahib's charan, i.e. become Guru valay by taking Khande Ki Pahul, following the rehat given to us by the Guru, doing jaap of naam suaas suaas and praising Vaheguru through Gurbani keertan. What is the use of other thoughts or actions? (I have made some amendments to the English translation given by Sikhitothemax, using Professor Sahib Singh's teeka for the meanings instead) ਗੋਂਡ ॥ Gond: ਭੈਰਉ ਭੂਤ ਸੀਤਲਾ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ One who chases after i.e. worships, the god Bhairau,at most becomes just like him, a ghost, One who worships Seetla, the goddess of smallpox, ਖਰ ਬਾਹਨੁ ਉਹੁ ਛਾਰੁ ਉਡਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ Is riding on a donkey, kicking up the dust.(just like Seetla) ||1|| ਹਉ ਤਉ ਏਕੁ ਰਮਈਆ ਲੈਹਉ ॥ I take only the Name of the One Lord. ਆਨ ਦੇਵ ਬਦਲਾਵਨਿ ਦੈਹਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ I have given away all other gods in exchange for Him. ||1||Pause|| ਸਿਵ ਸਿਵ ਕਰਤੇ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ That man who chants ""Shiva, Shiva"", and meditates on him, ਬਰਦ ਚਢੇ ਡਉਰੂ ਢਮਕਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ (at most what he can obtain is) Is riding on a bull, shaking a tambourine i.e. takes Shiva's roop, get on his way of transport and shake the tambourine like him. ||2|| ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ One who worships the Great Goddess Maya ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥ Will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. (because the worshipper can only take on the roop/form of what he worships)||3|| ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ (Addressing the goddess bhavani:) You are called the Primal Goddess. ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥੪॥ At the time of giving liberation to your devotees, I don't know where you go hiding, i.e. Bhavani can not give liberation ||4|| ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗਹੁ ਮੀਤਾ ॥ Follow the Guru's Teachings, and hold tight to the Lord's Name, O friend. ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਇਉ ਕਹੈ ਗੀਤਾ ॥੫॥੨॥੬॥ Thus prays Naam Dayv, and so says the Gita as well. ||5||2||6|| (Ang 874)

Please clarify this statement in bold. You said "Guru Ji himself explained the arths of Gurbani to the Sikhs in "lecture" style format starting from Guru Nanak Dev Ji." giving no source, my reply to that was based on the assumption that this actually happened. Just because I am unsure whether what you stated about Guru Sahib is true or not, how does this mean I don't believe the Guru? Please do not make such emotive statments or rather total insults for no reason. Clearly each person understands Gurmat individually, and this will apply to members of the same samprada, it is impossible to say that Gursikhs will have exactly the same views on Gurmat as each other, I think only brahmgianis or near to that will have exactly the same views as only they will be 100% correct on everything. Therfore your statment that I am being taken away from Gurmat because I agree with Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh on this issue is a subjective one, perhaps I am not inline with your interpretation of Gurmat, but to me this view on katha is totally in line with Gurmat, considering it has been totally backed by Gurbani. If something does not go against what Gurbani is saying or the Panj Pyare, then that is Gurmat for me. If anyone, be it Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh or any other Gursikh puts forward a view that cannot be backed up by Gurbani then I will not blindly follow it. Though I don't see why I need to be sitting here defending my own beliefs anyway. Firstly note the context of what I said, it was in reply a comment stating people who listen to keertan and not katha will not be able to explain Gurbani to others. I was trying to clarify the principle that it is not impossible to get such gian without listening to katha. i.e. singing alone meaning to the exclusion of listening to katha. Please read the post I was replying to first. The Sunniai pauries of Jap Ji Sahib clearly state what we can attain through the act of listening to Gurbani/Naam (that which we sing/recite). Through listening we can achieve the state of sidhs, peers and naaths, naash of all dukh and paap, knowledge of shaastar, simritees and vedas, etc. Even the honour of reading vidhia (ਸੁਣਿਐ ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਮਾਨੁ ॥) Whatever Guru Baba wrote is 100% fact. It is a very long process. I am not saying you go and sing one shabad and you will get gian. I am just stating that it is certainly possible to recieve param gat through singing gurbani, that is provided one is a Guru vala, in rehat etc (. If you read Sant Baba Harnam Singh Ji's biography, there is a sakhi of a mentally disabled person taught to jap vaheguru, he could not even pronounce vaheguru properly yet he started reaching amazingly high avasthas due to doing vaheguru jaap day and night. I don't believe I said anywhere that we should't do veechar of bani, I said in my post that I am not against doing vichar of bani, I clearly stated that our surat does not join itself with the shabad that we are singing therefore we do not progress and that this is when we can use veechaar to aid us in increasing our sharda. In actual fact most of us should do some khoj of bani, however, this does not take away from the fact that it is possible to reach the highest state through singing Gurbani and naam abhiyas provided one is Guru Vala and OBEYS this bani totally. How many of the people in the Gurdwara are amritdhari, how many people do naam jap/have naam (i.e. taken amrit)? This why there is very little effect. ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿਖ ਪੂਜਣ ਸਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਊਤਮ ਬਾਨੀ ॥ All the Sikhs and servants come to worship and adore You; they sing the sublime Bani of the Lord, Har, Har. ਗਾਵਿਆ ਸੁਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਰਿ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ Their singing and listening is approved by the Lord; they accept the Order of the True Guru as True, totally True. ||1|| ਬੋਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਵਜਲ ਤੀਰਥਿ ॥ Chant the Lord's Praises, O Siblings of Destiny; the Lord is the sacred shrine of pilgrimage in the terrifying world-ocean. ਹਰਿ ਦਰਿ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਊਤਮ ਬਾਤ ਹੈ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਜਿਨ ਜਨਹੁ ਜਾਨੀ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ They alone are praised in the Court of the Lord, O Saints, who know and understand the Lord's sermon. ||Pause|| - Note on this translation, ironically or maybe fittingly for yourself, the word katha is used here in this line, which the translators have put as "know and understand the Lord's sermon", so really like I have been infering, this whole issue is down to our interpretation of the word Katha in Gurbani, I would take this to mean Naam Simran/Gurmantar which is given to all who come to take amrit by the Guru, this makes sense to me considering there are two lines which make up the rahou pankti and the first one is about chanting har keerat i.e. naam, this tells me that katha in the second lines means naam. So my understanding is if we want the full results/phal of listening to and singing Gurbani, we must accept the orders of Gurbani- which is to jap naam and this can only be done if we know what naam is - which can only be obtained through taking amrit. I believe that this is what this shabad is in fact saying. I've been to rainsabhais, how did you guess lol. Disregarding your 'chela' comment, once more for the nth time, a disbelief that 'katha' means a lecture does not equate to saying we do not need to study the arths of Gurbani, how many times does this need to be said? Its quite simple, it is used because they do not even understand the literal words, being brought up in western countries so it is to let people know what is being said, once more this does not take away from the principle that we can obtain paramgat through singing and listening. Pretty much addressed above Anyway, until someone can show that 'katha' in any instance in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji di bani means a lecture by Gursikh there is not much more to say. All I can ask is forgiveness if I have offended anyone and forgiveness for any wrong interpretation of bani, knowing both Guru and sangat as bakhshanhaar. When it boils down to it we must remember we are all children of the same father (this is not directed to anyone in particular) ਹੋਇ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੈ ਕੇ ਹੋਵਹੁ ਜੋੜੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੈਸਹੁ ਸਫਾ ਵਿਛਾਇ ॥੧॥

Perhaps Guru Ji did himself explain the arths of Gurbani but this is totally different to one Gursikh on his/her own being given authority to teach sangat the meanings of Gurbani. I am not saying that doing vichar and discussing is katha. Like I said my understanding of what its meant when the word 'katha' appears in Gurbani is naam, gurbani etc. itself, not explanation of it. However, when you said that we will not understand bani or make any attempts to do so if we do not believe in 'katha' as in a lecture by one gursikh (although like I said I do not believe this should be given the name 'katha), I was merely stating that this is not the case as we can get an understanding of Gurbani through open vichar. If you are saying Guru Ji used to explain the meanings in a 'lecture' style format then remember that the Guru is now in the sangat (but not any individual except Guru Granth Sahib Ji), therefore it is my belief that doing vichar in sangat form, if it is done with pure intentions and not enmity or pride and having done ardas to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, this would have the same effect as a 'lecture', so to speak, by Guru Sahib himself. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe s50 was merely replying to your statement that Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh was against people understanding Gurbani, when he stated that Bhai Sahib has written books giving his interpretation of bani, so clearly he does believe in exploring the meanings of bani. I don't believe s50 brought this up to infer that Bhai Sahib was infallible. Certainly we must do khoj of bani but there are other ways of understanding what bani is saying other than through simply listening to 'katha'. Your second sentence infers that by listening only to kirtan, i.e. bani alone we will not have enough grasp of Sikhi to share with others. Baba Amaro (Guru Amar Das Ji before being given Gurgaddi) did not become a Sikh when he got a lecture on Sikhi from Bibi Amro, but when he heard her singing Gurbani. The words of Baba Amaro: ""Daughter, I was dead. This amrit-baaNee has entered my ears and I am alive again. My state is exactly like the one described in that shabad. Please take me to the one who's baaNee this is. Please recite that shabad again". This is the Paaras Kala power of Amrit Bani, no other words can compare to it. When Guru Nanak Dev Ji went on his udasis the first thing he did was sing Gurbani, not give a lecture on concepts and principles, who knows how many people joined the path when Guru Ji did this alone. Come to think of it I do not recall any sakhi of any puratan Gursikh converting to Sikhi on hearing a lecture, instead I remember converts to Gursikhi becoming completely nihaal on hearing just one line of Gurbani. That is not to say that they did not delve into the meanings of Gurbani in the course of their Gursikhi life, but the Kaliyaan came from and will always come from pure Gurbani itself. Certainly we can get such gian through singing and listening to Gurbani alone, I have no doubts about this in my mind. The Satguru (Gurbani) is Poora. Veechara help in that we, through fault of our own do not attach our surat to bani enough, so doing veechar of meanings helps increase our sharda, but veechara in themselves will not give us param gat. Someone could have knowledge of all of these things through veechara or katha but this will not save them, only bhau bhagti through Gurbani and Naam will. Guru Nanak Patshah states in Sri Jap Ji Sahib: ਗਾਵੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਭਾਉ ॥ Gaaveeai Suneeai Man Rakheeai Bhaao || Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love. ਦੁਖੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਰਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ Dhukh Parehar Sukh Ghar Lai Jaae || Your pain shall be sent far away, and peace shall come to your home. Before the 'Mannai' pauris of Sri Jap Ji Sahib (which would require an understanding of bani, to follow), the 'Suniai' pauris appear, which state clearly what can be attained from simply listening to the Gurbani and Naam that we sing/recite, way too many benefits of listening to what we sing to paste here! Certainly, the deeper understanding we need for 'Mannai' as in the next pauri, which some hope to gain from listening to discourse, we will gain while on step of 'Sunniai'. At the end of the day, Guru Baba states in Jap Ji Sahib, ਕਥਨਾ ਕਥੀ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਤੋਟਿ ॥ There is no shortage of those who preach and teach. ਕਥਿ ਕਥਿ ਕਥੀ ਕੋਟੀ ਕੋਟਿ ਕੋਟਿ ॥ Millions upon millions offer millions of sermons and stories. yet further down he tells us what the praiseworthy action is: ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite love. ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥ People beg and pray, ""Give to us, give to us"", and the Great Giver gives His Gifts. ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥ So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court? ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ What words can we speak to evoke His Love? ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness. There you go ^, the entire essence of Sikhi explained through Bani itself. I am glad that we both agree on the need to compare and contrast between views of different Gursikhs, almost exactly like I stated in my earlier post The crux of the matter is, Gurbani continuously talks about the singing and listening of Gurbani and naam, but I have yet to see where Gurbani states that 'katha' means one Gursikh giving a discourse on the meaning of bani (his own interpretation). Please share if there are any such tuks. I would like to make very clear here that I am NOT against discussing bani, doing vichar of bani and exploring its meanings. This is a very important part of Gursikhi life. bhull chukk maaf

Like I said, there is a difference between this modern 'katha' where one individual sits on stage dictating to everyone, and an open vichar format. Coincidentally just right now I am listening to the shabad, ਕਬੀਰ ਏਕ ਘੜੀ ਆਧੀ ਘਰੀ ਆਧੀ ਹੂੰ ਤੇ ਆਧ ॥ Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that, ਭਗਤਨ ਸੇਤੀ ਗੋਸਟੇ ਜੋ ਕੀਨੇ ਸੋ ਲਾਭ ॥੨੩੨॥ Whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. ||232|| (ang 1377) Notice, that its 'bhagtan', i.e. plural, i.e. sangat not an individual and its 'goshte' which is more akin to vichara or conversation rather than a lecture format. So yes of course we should look at the meanings of bani but my personal view based on Gurbani is that this should be in an equal vichar format. And as s50 has mentioned, there are also other avenues for exploration of Gurbani such as gurmat books, there are also steeks, etc. In these you do not sit someone above the entire sangat (figuratively speaking) and you also leave a choice open to compare, contrast and pick between all other meanings/ideas.There is mention of doing vichara of gursikhs in gurbani, but personally I do not see 'katha' in Gurbani ever meaning a lecture by an individual.

I could not agree more with the original post, actually no where in Gurbani does the word 'katha' ever mean the lecture by one individual, based on their own thoughts that is carried out today(I have pasted an article below to clarify this). That is not to say we should not look into the meanings of Gurbani, but this should be in a format of equal sangat doing vichar on the same platform, one person should not be given authority over the meanings of Gurbani. I'd like to share an article by Bhai Kulbir Singh which also contains an extract of the writings of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji on this topic, which explains the different meanings of the word 'Katha' when it appears in Gurbani, depending on the context: Bhai Sahib's views on Katha Bhai Sahib’s views on Katha are very much misunderstood. In his book “Katha Kirtan” he has explained the term “Katha” as it appears in Gurbani. In Gurbani, the meaning of Katha is one of the 9 meanings listed and explained later in this article. Secondly, what Bhai Sahib has written is that doing katha of Gurbani is not kalyankaari i.e. this karma in its capacity cannot lead one to salvation as chanting of Naam and recitation of Gurbani does. It helps one to solidify one’s position on the spiritual path, provided it’s done by a person who is well-versed in meanings of Gurbani but just by listening to Katha one cannot get Paramgat (salvation). On the other hand, the Akath Katha (description of the unexplainable i.e. Gurbani) of Naam and Naami Vaheguru that our Guru Sahibaan have done is such that just by listening to it and by uttering it, one gets paramgat. Similarly the Har Har Katha i.e. Naam is such that just by listening to this Har Har Katha (Naam) and by chanting it, one gets Paramgat (salvation). Bhai Sahib has not said that one should not do meanings of Gurbani for personal understanding. Bhai Sahib was not against katha of Sooraj Prakash and other historical granths but he was of the opinion that the katha of Gurbani was not done at Gurdwara Sahibaan. He himself witnessed that in olden days the katha of Gurbani was not done at Gurdwara Sahibaan. Only Kirtan was sung or Katha of history was done. Some people use the pankit below and preach that Katha is greatest Karma of all but they fail to understand that in Gurbani the word “Katha” is never used in the meanings of doing lectures, translating Gurbani, or doing katha of history. In Gurbani the word Katha is used in one of the 9 meanings listed later in this article. "Sabh te utam Har kee Katha|| Naam Sunat Dard Dukh Latha||" The next pankiti proves that "Har kee Katha" is referred to Naam here and not katha by some gyani. Dard (pain), dukh (sorrow) will go away listening to Naam roopi Katha and not katha by some gyani. How can the katha of a certified gyani be "Sabh tey uttam" i.e. greatest of all. Greatest Katha is Gurbani itself. What is Gurbani? Guru Sahibaan have done katha of Vaheguru and his Naam and his bhagats, in form of Gurbani. Gurbani is the Akath Katha of Naami Vaheguru. Then Har Har Katha i.e. Naam japna is the katha of Vaheguru that Gurmukhs do with every swaas. To equate the katha of a mortal being with Gurbani is nothing short of blasphemy. Bhai Sahib’s last book was Katha Kirtan and this book inspires one to do more paath and Naam abhyaas. This book explains the importance and greatness of Gurbani and Naam. It rejuvenates and kindles one’s faith in Gurbani and Naam.This book is about the word "katha" as it appears in Gurbani. Bhai Sahib has written that the word "Katha" appears in Gurbani in many meanings but never in the following two meanings: 1) History Katha e.g. Suraj Parkash Granth Katha etc. 2) Gurbani katha i.e. translation of Gurbani. Following are some of the meanings of the word "Katha" in Gurbani: 1) Akath Katha (of Naami Vaheguru) through Gurbani. Akath means that which cannot be explained or expressed. Akath means Vaheguru. Akath Katha means the explanation or description of the unexplainable and indescribable Vaheguru. 2) Gur-deekhiya roop Katha i.e. Gurmantr roop Katha that we get at the time of initiation or Amrit Sinchaar Samagam. 3) Har Har Katha i.e. Katha of Vaheguru through Naam Abhyaas. In other words to Japp Naam is doing Katha of Vaheguru. 4) Katha of Vaheguru through Ajappa Jaap. When the Jaap of Vaheguru goes on all by itself, and does not stop ever, it is referred to as Ajappa Jaap. Doing Ajappa Jaap is doing Katha of Vaheguru. 5) Amrit Katha - Again this is Katha of Vaheguru through Gurbani or Naam. When one sings Gurbani, one is doing Amrit Katha of Vaheguru and his qualities. 6) Sehaj Katha: This is a mystical state where katha of Vaheguru is done by the jeev aatma, through Naam or is listened by the jeev atma when it reaches the high spiritual states. 7) Guhaj Anand Binodi Katha. 8) Akath Katha through kirtan. 9) Sadh Jana kee Acharaj Katha (7 ashtpadi of Siri Sukhmani Sahib). It means praising Guru Sahibaan through Gurbani is referred to as Sadh Jana kee Acharaj Katha. Following is an extract from Bhai Sahib's book Katha Kirtan. It's impossible to do correct and accurate translation of Bhai Sahib's writing. Guru Sahib baksh lain. ***************Translation begins************* ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਪੜੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗੁਣੀਐ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਕਥਾ ਨਿਤ ਸੁਣੀਐ ॥ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਏ ਜਗੁ ਭਉਜਲੁ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਤਰੀਐ ਜੀਉ ॥1॥ In this gurvaak, reading Hargunn (qualities of Vaheguru, Gurbani) and singing Hargunn (gurbani) has been determined as Katha of Harnaam. To sing the qualities of God’s Naam is doing Gurmat Katha of Har Naam. This Love Katha is sung in Satsangat while being absorbed in Naam. Some stubborn people who are supporters of doing Katha of Gurbani claim that in the first pankiti “ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਪੜੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗੁਣੀਐ ॥” , both doing paath of Gurbani and kirtan of Gurbani has been clearly mentioned. The second pankiti therefore clearly refers to doing Katha of Gurbani, just as traditionally the katha of Gurbani has been done at samagams after Gurbani kirtan. In response to the above claim, we have mentioned this many times that this (the above paragraph) is a false statement and this maryada of doing katha after kirtan just got started out of imitation. What Katha can some Kathakaar do of Naam? The words “Har Har” appear two times before “Naam” which clearly means that saying Naam again and again is doing Tatt Katha and this is not something you are supposed to do only daily (once a day) but with every breath. The Kathakaars who do katha at Gurdwaras don’t do katha of Naam but they do katha of Gurbani Shabad. (therefore they cannot use the second pankiti of the above shabad in their favour). For some years now, the katha of amritvela hukamnama of Siri Darbar Sahib Siri Amritsar has been started at Gurdwara Manji Sahib but this maryada was not there in the past. Before, there used to be katha of only Suraj Parkash or some other historical scripture (not of Gurbani). And what Shabad Katha do they do there? They just express the false beliefs of their mind there. Many times this katha is done in form of a lecture. Famous scholars of Chief Khalsa Diwan do the katha of Gurbani standing and in lecture form. We ourselves have heard them doing so. To call this lecture, a katha, is a wrong thing to say. It is purely an entertainment of mind and nothing spiritual. No one does katha of Naam Shabad rather the real essence of Gurbani Shabad is lost during these katha samagams. They tell tales with the cleverness of their mind. Just because they call it Gurshabad Katha does not mean that it becomes Gurshabad Katha. *************Translation Ends******************

I am certainly not a knowledgable or chardikala gursikh in anyway, however as per my understanding (which could easily be wrong), really there is not any test for whether arths are right or wrong other than; they haven't broken any grammer (vykaran) rules in producing a certain arth, i.e. have not discarded the way in which the bani words are written (eg. with or without aunkur etc.), and secondly whether the arths are line with the rest of Gurbani/rehat etc. So its quite difficult for anyone to assess a whole steek. You asked for other well known sources, personally I would suggest using Prof. Sahib Singh's steek, however this is written purely in Gurmukhi. This is one of the most respected steeks ever written. It pays correct attention to the grammer rules of gurbani to avoid making mistakes in the arths. It is more literal and avoids going into his own imagination away from gurbani. You can read it online at www.srigranth.org just click on 'read page by page' and then at the top there are various selections to be made, on the one for teeka just select Prof Sahib Singh and his arths will come under each line of gurbani. Prof Sahib also explains the meaning of each word seperately to start with.

Thats disgraceful! I think we should contact them to communicate our dissaproval http://sangattelevis...rg/Contact.aspx Also, apparently there was a show on lohri the other day, does anyone know what they were talking about? I hope they were not promoting useless pagan rituals that Sikhi forbids.

Forum rules apply as much to private messages exchanged through sikhsangat as to posts made on the actual board.

What kind of 'kshatri ka poot' makes such a compromise to tie his beard? For a khalsa this is unthinkable. Tunni munni ek barabar.