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  1. They are hind-ians (aka those who inhabit the ancient land of hind) and are more interested in Hind-ism than Hindu-ism. What Sikhs failed to realise is after 1947 when the Hindu's found themselves to have a majority rule again after nearly 1000 years they are more interested in defending and preserving what remains of land of hind than actual reviving and practising hinduism and uphold any of its values or teachings. The most militant and ultra nationalistic hindian will do anything including murders, torture and terrorism to ensure India is safeguarded. And the militant of these people are the types who join R&AW operations against their precieved enemies. We can even see some our own Sikhs who been brainwashed to follow this ideology of hindism especially onces who join the indian army they will rather defend india than Sikhi. We see the results of that when some traitor Sikh generals and sikh soldiers took part in the attack on darbar sahib in 1984 and those traitor punjabi Sikh policemen who killed their own Sikh brothers in the fields of punjab in late 80s to early 90s. Today we see most hindu's do not really believe in their religion, alot of their hindu religious figures the sadhu's, swami's and sants are complaining they are in grave danger of dying out as younger generations dont believe in their paths as the internet is brainwashing the youth into other ideologies. Alot of hindu religious figures are getting caught up in fraud and sexual exploitation scandals and jailed bringing the hindu faith in disrupt. But what is being replaced in young hindu minds is deep sense of nationalism. Anyone who utters a word against india is seen as a heretic, a blasphemer, an anti-national terrorist who wishes no good to their nation. It is their new religion now not hinduism but hind-ism
  2. @Suchi Thank you for responding in the other thread bro. Your perspective means a lot actually. And I think you're right that the british were very much enemies of Dharam. Which is why they left you hinduism. It's clear, having done my best to discover what this hinduism is, now some years, that it's living proof not to let yourself get ism'ed. Clearly the way countless priceless Dharams, have ceased to exist under hinduism, Sikhi would also, which is why we will never adhere to the narrative that we were ever simply hindu. Coupled with the fact Gurbani is so clear on the issue. Which leads me to the real point of the thread. Who are the actual Dharams, and who is actually adhering to them. Let's increase awareness of Dharmis being Dharmi, and what specific Dharam. Let's give props to them here. Let's find Dharmis also resisting being subsumed by hinduism and highlight them here. Let's talk real Buddhis, real Sadhus, real chela of Shiva, Brahma, Vishnu, real Bhagats, real Yogis, real Jains etc. Who's keeping it real and Nirmal? Who can we point to and say, see that positive existence is fruit of their Dharam? Dharam is going to have to be preserved and reissued by somebody. Who's the ones in their respective fields doing this? Should we be identifying other prusists and communicating with them as our root is in Dharam and we are facing similar struggles for survival? But looking at the hindu narrative, and behavior both, I don't see any Dharmic fruit going on. Ehat I do see is a lot of hate speech against Sikhs and a government gone mad with nowhere near the power it thinks it has. So who gonna save india, or is representing india well, other than Sikhs? Where are the Dharmis?
  3. 3HO is a crazy new age mishmash of yoga, numerology, and a bunch other nonsense dreamt up by a sociopathic hustler. If those goreh were just Beatles fans seeking Eastern Wisdom™ then why bring Sikhi into the mix at all? Be a Hindu or a Theosophist. On the other hand, if they discern the truth of Sikhi, then why pollute it with nonsense?
  4. Beware of Muslims ! Sikh brothers awake and be very cautious. The Muslims to whom you say our brothers and u say they are very close to us . You say they are better than Hindus ; you must watch this video .from this you can understand what is a Muslim thought psychology . Must see this video where Muslims say they will not take even food langar from Gurdwara because it it is HARAAM. They will not allow any Gurbani Kirtan in their masjid mosque. https://fb.watch/9NOB2YKe_3/ You must acknowledge this bitterroot that Muslims do not bow to our Siri guru Granth sahib ji even if they come to our Gurdwara. Most of them consider us as Kafir. They are from a totally different civilization which can not match anywhere, anytime with the Sikh thoughts.
  5. For those who don't know, Matra Sahib is the scripture of the Udasi sect. They attribute it to Baba Shri Chand. They often do parkash of it, like we parkash Guru Granth Sahib. Most of their prayers, like their Aarti, come from this scripture. I am posting some shabads sung by Bhai Davinder Singh Nirman from this granth.
  6. like how many of the key concepts are almost same in both of them , viz , Karma , Dharma, belief in rebirth , belief that last thought of a dying person manifests in afterlife, etc etc and the sameness or concurrence of festivals : Bandi chhor/diwali, Holi/Hola , etc How do you answer if a hindu brother asked you "but you copied from hindu religion"
  7. Khalsa Ji, The English book 'Sikh religion and Hinduism' has been uploaded to scribd.com. The late Gurbachan Singh M.A. London has written an analysis of the Vedas and the subsequent ancient Sanskrit scriptures. The author draws on western scholars, references from SGGS, and SDG to highlight Guru Ji's view of the ancient scriptures. This book can be read/downloaded: www.scribd.com/mokhamsingh On the same scribd page, the Punjabi book 'Hum Hindu nahin' {I am not Hindu} by Kahn Singh Nabha can be read/downloaded. The author puts the case forward, very brilliantly, that Sikhs are not Hindus. Waheguru.....
  8. The Dasam Granth states: 'Humanity is one, although in appearance it differs.' This is in direct contrast to the notion that humanity is one, but some portions of it is more superior than others due to certain beliefs and principles which it holds. Here is an example, the Koran states: 'the only religion acceptable to Allah is Islam...' We see a similar case with other religions as well. The basic crux of such ideologues are based on the notion that it is entirely feasible, and pragmatically possible to achieve an Utopia, which we now know is nothing more than sheer imbecility. What are some counter arguments which can be used against this jaundiced view of selected nation/faith etc?
  9. We all understand that when Guru maharaj refers to 'asur malech' in Dasam Bani or turks he refers to the inhumane individuals plaguing the innocent and giving rise to ignorance (via what faith we all know). But what about the term Hindu in Uggardanti and Bhagat Bhagauti Vaar???? Does the term Hindu denote what is the accepted definition of Hindu today, or does it denote the indigenous residents of the sub-continent sprinkled with other non-Islamic adherents???
  10. What are the six Hindu schools? Are they associated with Hindu mentality or faith? What are their differences and similarities with Gurmat? How does Gurmat view them? Do they lead to sachkhand as Gurmat does?
  11. I did this write up of sorts on why Ram Chandar, is not the Guru Sahibaan's Ram: RAM CHANDAR. WHO IS HE? AND HOW DO SIKHS VIEW HIM? Over time Right-Wing Hindu politicians have come up with the argument that the name of Ram is mentioned more than any other name in Gurbani. No other Sikh source supports this 'hyped-up' claim, nor have these right-wing extremists provided any proof except books published by them or the teachings of self-styled theologians. This has obviously lead to a heated debate as to who Ram is according to Gurbani. Guru Sahiban have u sed the name of Ram in Gurbani to mean Waheguru. Out of the many shabads which prove this claim we chose the following from Gurbani, to prove our point: ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥ Kabīr rām kahan mėh bẖeḏ hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār. Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider. ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥ So▫ī rām sabẖai kahėh so▫ī ka▫uṯakhār. ||190|| Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190|| ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥ Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibe māhi bibek. Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥ Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191|| One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191|| Bhagat Kabir here has made a distinction for himself as to who the real Ram is. One Ram, the son of Dasrath and incarnation of Vishnu is contained only within himself. The other Ram, Bhagat Kabir's Ram is all pervading and everywhere. He is the one who Guru Sahiban termed as Akal Purakh, Waheguru Hari etc. Guru Nanak Dev Ji states: ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਵਾਲ ॥ ਕੇਤੀਆ ਕੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਕੇਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥ "The Formless alone, Nanak, is without fear, many are Ramas as the dust of His Feet, many Krishnas. Many are their stories and many are the Vedas." (SGGS - Ang 464). There are many Ramas who are the dust of his feet. The 'his' in this question again is Akal Purakh. Guru Gobind Singh Ji is often stated as having worshipped Ram, due to him writing Ram Avtar. It is stated that Guru Sahib deviated from the path of the following Gurus by writing Ram avtar but lets see what the Guru has to say about Ram, in Ram avtar: "Ever since I have grasped Your feet, I have not thought of anybody else. I do not accept the doctrines enunciated by various faiths, believing in Ram, Rahim, Puranas and Qoran. The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas mention different concepts but I do not subscribe to any of them. O God, the Sword-bearer (of justice)! With Your Grace, all that has been uttered by me has been done under Your command. Dohra! I have shunned every door and have entered Your door Please hold my arm and keep my honour, Gobind is ever Your slave." (Raam Avtar, Guru Gobind Singh). Ram Chander was born of a woman. His mother's name was Kaushalya. Puranic sources relate that Dasrath, Ram's father, had no son but three wives. He performed a yajna to have his wife beget sons. Kaushalya gave birth to Ram. Ram cannot be God if we look at Gurmat because he was born of a woman: ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥ "Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Lord and Master is subject to birth. ||3|| He is not born, and He does not die; He does not come and go in reincarnation. The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere. ||4||1||" (SGGS - Ang 1136). Many other aspects of Ram are rejected outright by Gurbani. Ram is often accepted as being an incarnation of Vishnu. The seventh to be exact. Gurbani says: ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥ "O Formless Lord God, You are eternally intact; no one can say how You came into being. You created countless Brahmas and Vishnus; their minds were intoxicated with emotional attachment." (Ang 1403). Countless Vishnus who themselves are attached to creation but not the creator. Whats the point of worshipping one when there are countless more? Guru Gobind Singh Ji clearly states: ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥ “I do not seek blessings or hail Ganesh before I start any task. (In old times, often Ganesh would be hailed before starting any task). Nor do I worship Krishan or Vishnu etc. I have heard of them but I do not recognise any of them. I am engrossed in the loving devotion of my Lord (Waheguru) alone.” (DG – P. 733, Krishan Avtar. How could the Gurus have worshipped Rama when they did not believe in his source Vishnu? Our Gurus were the one and same jot from beginning till end they would not have contradicted their actions in the predecessor's form. How hard is all this for Hindus to understand? They can understand flying apes, ten-headed demi-gods but not a soul being the same yet with different bodies. A Sikh is required by the Guru to place his faith only in the Guru: :ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ Saṯgur merā saḏā saḏā nā āvai na jā▫e. My True Guru, forever and ever, does not come and go. ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧੩॥ Oh abẖināsī purakẖ hai sabẖ mėh rahi▫ā samā▫e. ||13|| He is the Imperishable Creator Lord; He is permeating and pervading among all. ||13|| What else does Gurbani say about the devte? A:ਰਾਮੁ ਗਇਓ ਰਾਵਨੁ ਗਇਓ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਵਾਰੁ ॥ रामु गइओ रावनु गइओ जा कउ बहु परवारु ॥ Rām ga▫i▫o rāvan ga▫i▫o jā ka▫o baho parvār. Raam Chand passed away, as did Raawan, even though he had lots of relatives. and ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਚੀਪਿਤ ਅੰਤ ਫਸੇ ਜਮ ਫਾਸਿ ਪਰੈਂਗੇ ॥ ब्रहम महेसर बिसन सचीपित अंत फसे जम फासि परैंगे ॥ Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu and Consort of Sachi (Indra) would ultimately fall in the noose of death.(Sri Dasam Granth Sahib) Even Ram Chand passed away, yet God never takes birth nor dies according to Gurmat; so Ram cannot be God. ਏਕ ਸਿਵ ਭਏ ਏਕ ਗਏ ਏਕ ਫੇਰ ਭਏ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਕੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਭੀ ਅਨੇਕ ਹੈਂ ॥ Ek Siv Bhae Ek Gae Ek Pher Bhae, Raamchanndra Krishan Ke Avtaar Bhee Anek Hain|| एक सिव भए एक गए एक फेर भए रामचंद्र क्रिसन के अवतार भी अनेक हैं ॥ There was one Shiva, who passed away and another one came into being; there are many incarnations of Ramchandra and Krishna. 66810 ਦਸਮ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਪੰਨਾ ੪੮ ਪੰ. The Guru's Ram on the other hand is Waheguru Akal Purakh as proved by Bhagat Kabir Ji's Shabad. Of course many Hindus argue that thats only Bhagat Kabir Ji's thinking. But we have to remember that the Gurus, Bhagats, Bhatts, Gursikhs in reality all had one Guru and that was God, Waheguru. It is him they tell man to worship not any son of Dasrath who couldn't protect even his own wife! Now let us look at some facts about Ram Chandar, is he really an embodiment of Gurmat? 1.) Bali, the king of Kishkindha was at war with Raksash named Mayavi. Bali pursued Mayavi deep into a cave in the earth. Before going he asked his brother, Sugriva to wait outside the cave. Sugriva however had other plans. He returned to Kishkindha and declared himself King. As prime minister he appointed Hanuman, the simian demi-God. In this grab of power he derived Angad, the son of Bali of kingship. When Bali came out of the cave, after killing his nemesis he did not find Sugriva there. After coming to know of what had transpired he raised an army and drove Sugriva out of Kishkindha. The two brothers were now openly at war and had become enemies. Knowing fully well the deception of Sugriva and his greed Ram Chandar (the so-called king of Dharma) still decided to help him against forth righteous Bali. In one of the battles fought between the two brothers, Ram 'Ji' hid behind a tree and through deception gave orders to kill Bali. After Bali's death he appointed Sugriva as the king of Kishkindha. The kingship belonged to the next of kin Angad, yet Angad was forgotten in all this. Sugriva had already proven his colours once so could not have been appointed as the boy's supervisor, yet what did Ram 'Ji' do though? He helped in the demise of an innocent king and that too through deception. It was due to this incident that Sugriva offered to help Ram 'Ji' in attacking Ravan. Many anti-Panthic forces have the cheek to compare this incident with Guru Gobind Singh Ji's helping of Bahadur Shah. One fact straight away destroys this comparision, and that fact is that Bahadur Shah was the rightful heir to Aurangzeb's throne. Secondly he had himself gone to Guru Gobind Singh Ji as a supplicant. Guru Sahib helped him, irregardless of his (Bahadur Shah's father's misdeeds). Nor did Guru Ji fear the mughals, who at this stage had given up pursuing him and after Aurangzeb's fanatic policies were beginning to crumble. The very fact that Bahadur Shah had to ask Guru Ji for assistance in helping crush rebellion against him by various members of his families shows the weakness of the mughals. Furthermore the mughal records at the time can prove this. 2.) According to the 'Balmik Sarg' (6-115) after the deaths of Ravan, and his son Inderjeet; Hanuman brought Seeta to Ram 'Ji'. Great king Ram 'Ji' however couldn't care less at this stage. taaM tu paarshve sthitaaM prahvaaM raamaH saMprekShye maithiliim | hR^idayaantargataM bhaavaM vyaahartumupachakrame || 6-115-1 1. samprekShya= seeing; taam maithiliim= that Seetha; sthitaam= who stood; paarshve= at his vicinity; prahvaam= bowing low; raamaH= Rama; upachakrame= began; vyaahartum= to tell; bhaavam= his feeling; hR^idayaantargatam= hidden in his heart (as follows). Seeing that Seetha, who stood at his vicinity bowing low, Rama began to tell his feeling hidden in his heart (as follows): eShaasi nirjitaa bhadre shatruM jitvaa raNaajire | pauruShaadyadanuShTheyaM mayaitadupapaaditam || 6-115-2 2. bhadre= my dear lady!; eShaa= you; asi= are; nirjitaa= won back (by me); jitvaa= after conquering; shatrum= the enemy; raNaajire= in the battle-field; tat yat= that which; anuShTheyam= is to be done; pauruShaat= through human effort; upapaaditam= has been accomplished; mayaa= by me. "You are won back by me, after conquering the enemy in the battle-field, my dear lady! That which is to be done through human effort, has been accomplished by me." gato.asmyantamamarShasya dharShaNaa saMpramaarjitaa | avamaanashcha shatrashcha yugapannihatau mayaa || 6-115-3 3. gataH asmi= I have come to; antam= the end; amarShasya= of my indignation; dharShaNaa= and my outrage; sampramaarjitaa= has been completely requited; shatrushcha= and the enemy; anumaanashcha= as well as the contempt; nihatau= have been wiped out; yugavat= all at once; mayaa= by me. "I have come to the end of my indignation and my outrage has been completely requited as also the contempt against the enemy have been wiped out, all at once, by me." adya me pauruShaM dR^iShTamadya me saphalaH shramaH | adya tiirNapratijJNo.ahaM prabhavaamyadya chaatmanaH || 6-115-4 4. adya= now; me= my; pauruSham= manly strength; dR^iShTam= has been seen (by all); adya= today; me= my; shramaH= toil; saphalaH= has borne fruit; adya= now; aham= I; tiirNa pratijJNaH= have fulfilled my promise; adya= today; prabhavaami= I am the master; aatmanaH= of myself. "Now, my manly strength has been seen by all. Today, my toil has borne fruit. Now, I have fulfilled my promise. Today, I am the master of myself." yaa tvaM virahitaa niitaa chalachittena rakShasaa | daivasaMpaadito doSho maanuSheNa mayaa jitaH || 6-115-5 5. yaa tvam= you, who; virahitaa= became deserted from me; niitaa= was taken away; chalachittena rakShasaa= by a ficle-minded demon; doShaH= the wrong; daivasampaaditaH= brought about by the destiny jitaH= has been corrected; mayaa= by me; maanuSheNa= a human being. "The wrong done to you, when you were deserted from me, in that you were taken away by a fickle-minded demon, which was ordained by the destiny, has been corrected by me as a human being." saMpraaptamavamaanaM yastejasaa na pramaarjati | kastasya pauruSheNaartho mahataapyalpachetasaH || 6-115-6 6. kaH arthaH= what is the use; pauruSheNa= of a prowess; tasya mahataapi alpachetasH= of a weak-minded man, even if it is mighty; yaH na pramaarjati= who does not wipe out; sampraaptam avamaanam= the insult fallen to his lot; tejasaa= by means of his energy? "What is the use of a prowess, however great, of that weak-minded man who does not wipe out, by his energy, the insult fallen to his lot?" laN^ghunaM samudrasya laN^kaayaashchaapi mardanam | saphalaM tasya cha shlaaghyamadya karma hanuumataH || 6-115-7 7. shlaaghya= the praise-worthy; karma= act; tasya hanuumataH= of that Hanuma; laN^ghanam= (namely) the crossing; samudrasya= of the ocean; mardanam cha= and the destroying; laN^kaayaaH= of Lanka; the destroying; laNKaayaaH= of Lanka; adya= today; saphalam= has borne fruit. "The praise-worthy act of Hanuma in the form of crossing of the ocean and the destroying of Lanka, has borne fruit today." yuddhe vikramatashchaiva hitaM mantrayatastathaa | sugriivasya sasainyasya saphalo.adya parishramaH || 6-115-8 8. parishramaH= the endeavour; sugriivasya= of Sugreeva; sa sainyashcha= together with his army; vikramataH= for his attack; yuddhe= in the battle; tathaa= and; mantrayataH= his counsel; hitam= of a good advice; saphalah= is fruitful; adya= today. "The endeavour of Sugreeva, who exhibited his prowess on the battle-field with his army and tendered a good advice, is fruitful today." vibhiiSaNasya cha tathaa saphalo.adya parishramaH | viguNaM bhraataraM tvaktvaa yo maaM svayamupasthitaH || 6-115-9 9. tathaa= furthermore; parishramashcha= the exertion; vibhiiShaNashcha= of Vibhishana; yaH= who; tyaktvaa= after abandoning; bhraataram= his brother; viguNam= who was void of good qualities; svayam= andpersonall; upasthitaH= reached; maam= me; saphalaH= is fruitful; adya= today. "Furthermore, the exertion of Vibhishana, who after deserting his brother who was void of good qualities, sought my presence, is fruitful today. ityevaM vadataH shrutvaa siitaa raamasya tadvachaH | mR^igiivotphullanayanaa babhuuvaashrupariplutaa || 6-115-10 10. shrutvaa= hearing; tat= those; vachaH= words; vadataH= spoken; tiyevam= thus; raamasya= by Rama; siitaa= Seetha; utphullanayanaa= her eyes wide open; mR^igiiva= like those of a female-deer; babhuuva was; ashrupariplutaa= filled with tears. Hearing those words spoken thus by Rama, Seetha with her eyes wide open like those of a female-deer, was bathed in tears. pashyatastaaM tu raamasya samiipe hR^idayapriyaam | janavaadabhayaadraajJNo babhuuva hR^idayaM dvidhaa || 6-115-11 11. hR^idayam= the heart; raajJNaH raamasya= of King Rama; pashyataH= as he saw; taam= Seetha (hR^idaya priyaam= the beloved of his heart); samiipe= near him; babhuuva dvidha= was torn; janavaada bhayaat= for fear of the talk of the public. The heart of King Rama, as he saw Seetha, (the beloved of his heart) near him, was torn for fear of public scandal. siitaamutpalapatraakShiiM niilakuJNchitamuurdhajaam | avadadvai varaarohaaM madhye vaanararakShasaam || 6-115-12 12. madhye= in the midst; vaanara raakShasaam= of monkeys and demons; avadat vai= Rama spoke; siitaam= to Seetha; utpala patraakShiim= whose eyes resembled the petals of a lotus; niila kuN^jitu muurdhajaam= hair, dark in hue as also curled; vanaarohaam= and hips, excellent. In the midst of monkeys and demons, Rama spoke (as follows) to Seetha, whose eyes resembled the petals of a lotus, who wore dark curly hair and was endowed with fine hips. yatkartavyaM manuShyeNa dharSaNaaM pratimaarjataa | tatkR^itaM raavaNaM hatvaa mayedaM maanakaaN^kkShiNaa || 6-115-13 13. mayaa= by me; maanakaaN^kShiNaa= wanting for an honour; tat idam= this particular act; yat= which; kartavyam= ought to be done; manuShyeNa= by a man; kR^itam= has been done; hatvaa= in killing; raavaNam= Ravana; pratimaarjitaa= and thus wiping away; dharShaNaam= the insult. "I, wanting for an honour, have done this particular act, which ought to be done by a man, in killing Ravana and thus wiping away the insult meted out to me." nirjitaa jiivalokasya tapasaa bhaavitaatmanaa | agastyena duraadharShaa muninaa dakShiNeva dik || 6-115-14 14. nirjitaa= (you have been) won by me; bhaavitaatmanaa= whose mind stands purified; tapasaa= by asceticism; dakShiNaa dik iva= as the southern quarter; duraadharShaa= which was difficult to be approached; jiivalokasya= by the world of mortals; (was conquered by) agastyena= by the Sage Agastya. "You have been won by me, whose mind stands purified by asceticism as the southern quarter, which was difficult to be approached by the world of mortals, was conquered by the Sage Agastya." viditashchaastu bhadraM te yo.ayaM raNaparishramaH | sutiirNaH suhR^idaaM viiryaanna tvadarthaM mayaa kR^itaH || 6-115-15 rakShataa tu mayaa vR^ittamapavaadam cha sarvataH | prakhyaatasyaatmavaMshasya nyaN^gaM cha parimaarjataa || 6-115-16 15-16. viditaH astu= let it be known (to you); ayam yuddhaparishramaH= that this endeavour in the shape of war; sutiirNaH= which has been successfully carried through; viiryaat= due to the strength; suhR^idaam= of my friends; na kR^itaH= was not undertakne; tvadartham= for your sake; te bhadram astu= let there be happiness to you!; mayaa= (this was done) by me; rakShataa= in order to keep up; vR^itam= my good conduct; parimaarjitaa= and wipe off; apavaadam cha= the evil-speaking; sarvataH= from all sides; nyaNgam= as well as the insinuation; prakhyaatasya aatmavamshasya= on my own illustrious dynasty. "Let it be known to you that this endeavor in the shape of war, which has been successful carried through, due to the strength of my friends was not undertaken for your sake. Let there be prosperity to you! This was done by me in order to keep up my good conduct and to wipe off the evil-speaking from all sides as well as the insinuation on my own illustrious dynasty." praaptachaaritrasaMdeha mama pratimukhe sthitaa | diipo netraaturasyeva pratikuulaasi me dR^iDham || 6-115-17 17. praapta chaaritra sandehaa= (You) with a suspicion arisen on your character; sthitaa= standing; pratimukhe= in front of; mama= me; dR^iDham pratikuulaa api= are extremely disagreeable; me= to me; diipaH iva= even as a light; netraaturasya= to one, who is suffering from a poor eye-sight. "You, with a suspicion arisen on your character, standing in front of me, are extremely disagreeable to me, even as a light to one, who is suffering from a poor eye-sight." tadgachchha tvaanujaane.adya yatheShTaM janakaatmaje | etaa dasha disho bhadre kaaryamasti na me tvayaa || 6-115-18 18. janakaatmaje= O Seetha!; tat= that is why; anujaane= I am permitting; tvaa= you; adya= now; gachchha= go; yatheShTam= wherever you like; tetaaH dasha dishaH= to any of these ten directions; naasti= there is no; kaaryam= work to be done; me= to me; tvayaa= by you; bhadre= my dear lady! "O Seetha! That is why, I am permitting you now. Go wherever you like. All these ten directions are open to you, my dear lady! There is no work to be done to me, by you." kaH pumaaMstu kule jaatah striyaM paragR^ihoShitaam | tejasvii punaraadadyaat suhR^illekhyena chetasaa || 6-115-19 19. kaH tejasvii pumaan= which noble man; jaataH= born; kule= in an illustrious race; aadadyaat= will take; punaH= back; striyam= a woman; paragR^ihoShitaam= who lived in another's abode; suhR^illekhyena chetasaa= with an eager mind? "Which noble man, born in an illustrious race, will take back a woman who lived in another's abode, with an eager mind?" raavaNaaN^kaparikliShTaaM dR^iShTaaM duShTena chakShuShaa | kathaM tvaaM punaraadadyaaM kulaM vyapadishan mahat || 6-115-20 20. vyapadishan= while mentioning about; mahat kulam= my great lineage; katham= how; aadadyaam= can I accept; punaH= again; tvaam= you; raavaNaaN^ka parikliShTaan= who were harassed in Ravana's lap while being borne away by him) dR^iShTaam= and who were seen (by him) duShTena chakShuShaa= with evil looks? "While mentioning greatly about my lineage, how can I accept again, you who were harassed in Ravana's lap (while being borne away by him) and who were seen (by him) with evil looks?" tadarthaM nirjitaa me tvaM yashaH pratyaahR^itaM mayaa | naasth me tvayyabhiShvaN^go yatheShTaM gamyataamitaH || 6-115-21 21. tvam nirjitaa= you were won; me= by me; tadartham= for that end (viz. retrieval of my lost honour); yashaH= the honour; pratyaahR^itam= has been restored; mayaa= by me; me= for me; na asti= there is no; abhiShvaN^gaH= intense attachment; tvayi= in you; gamyataam= you may go; yatheShTam= wherever you like; itaH= from here. "You were won by me with that end in view (viz. the retrieval of my lost honour). The honour has been restored by me. For me, there is no intense attachment in you. You may go wherever you like from here." Seeta's reply was one of sorrow and supplication. She begged Ram 'Ji' to let her prove her innocence. Hence an agni pariksha, or test of fire was decided upon. Agni,^ the God of fire appeared and himself told Ram 'Ji' Seeta was innocent. Agni commanded Ram 'Ji' to take her back. But more suffering was still in store for Seeta. Ram 'Ji' back in Ayodhya became king, yet he did not treat Seeta like his wife or queen and tongues started to wage. Especially when Seeta became pregnant. The court jester reported this to Ram 'Ji' and Ram 'Ji' ordered brother Lakshman to take Seeta to the Ganges and leave her there alone and friendless. Lakshman completed the task left up to him and a heavily pregnant woman was left to the mercy of nature. Yet there is one even above the Hindu Gods* who smiled upon her, and soon his devotee Balmik found her and took her in. In time Seeta gave birth to two boys, Luv and Khush who became deadly archers like their fickle-minded father. Even Ram 'Ji' had heard of Balmik and invited him to a Yajna. Alongwith Balmik went the two boys. At Ayodhya they sang songs about their mother and Ram 'Ji' asked to their background. They told him they were the sons of a woman who was banished to the forest by an unworthy and weak minded husband, on hearing this Ram ‘Ji’ realised that these boys were talking about none other than him. After revealing to the duo who he really was he asked Seeta to come back to Ayodhya in an assembly of saints and prove her innocence. Seeta presented herself and gave testimony saying, she had never thought about any other man than Ram. Even in her dreams. But Seeta was not ready to forgive Ram Ji herself. She said that let the earth swallow her, and it is said that the earth opened and she fell in the fissure. Clearly she had had enough of a fickle-minded and suspicious husband. According to Gurmat a woman is pure and equal to man in all respects.** Hence her opinion should be asked on all matters. The Gurus did not definitely worship such a figure who was so stone-hearted that he left his wife at the mercy of the elements. Ram ‘Ji’ would definitely have taken the seven vows of marriage (according to Hindu tradition) in the presence of fire which bound him to fidelity and life-long companionship. Yet he broke this vow, another sign of non-Gurmat as a Gurmukh is one who does not break his word.*** 3.) The description of Ram ‘Ji’s’ lifestyle is one totally rejected by Gurmat. According to Balmik Ji (Read Uttra Khand) Ram 'Ji'‘used to watch Apasaras (beautiful women) dancing and enjoyed liquor of the finest quality. Ram ‘Ji’s’ drinking bouts lasted well into the night and many beautiful women were brought for him from China and Manchuria. It is for this lavish lifestyle that Balmik Ji has rightly labelled Ram ‘Ji’ as a “prince among ladies’ men.” He was even a consumer of meat. All these actions do not tally with any figure of dharma (religion) or righteousness and is very far from the course of Gurmat. 4.) Over the course of time, it has been said many times that Ram Chander was a just man/demi-god. Let us look at the truth of this statement. A Brahman’s son died a premature death and a Shudra named Shambhuk was blamed. Shambhuk’s only sin was that he undertook religious rituals. The Brahmin conveyed his news and distress to Ram ‘Ji’ and asked for justice. According to Gurmat all the four varnas or castes have the right to seek God and perform religious rituals, ਬ੝ਰਹਮਨ ਬੈਸ ਸੂਦ ਅਰ੝ ਖ੝ਯ੝ਯਤ੝ਰੀ ਡੋਮ ਚੰਡਾਰ ਮਲੇਛ ਮਨ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਪ੝ਨੀਤ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਜਨ ਤੇ ਆਪ੝ ਤਾਰਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਕ੝ਲ ਦੋਇ ॥੧॥ Barahman bais sūḝ ar kẖa­yṯarī dom cẖandĝr malėcẖẖ man so­ė. Ho­ė punīṯ bẖagvanṯ bẖajan ṯė ĝp ṯĝr ṯĝrė kul ḝo­ė. ॥1॥ Whether he is a Brahmin, a Vaishya, a Soodra, or a Kh'shaatriya; whether he is a poet, an outcaste, or a filthy-minded person, he becomes pure, by meditating on the Lord God. He saves himself, and the families of both his parents. ॥1॥ (SGGS p858). According to Ram ‘Ji’ howver, this was not the case, he immediately reached the spot where Shambhuk was doing religious practices and without warning cut of his head. A great deed on the part of a God. And as if to justify this deed, many Brahmins say that the prematurely expired son came back to life after this deed of Ram ‘Ji’. Furthermore to give the episode more religious significance it is said that the other Gods hailed this act of Ram ‘Ji’. 5.) Ravan needed no bridge to come to the Indian mainland from Lanka, but Ram Ji needed a bridge to go to him. Furthermore such a vast bridge was completed in only 5 days? Who was more powerful? The bridgeless or the one who needed the bridge? All this in the face of Ram Ji having many flying chariots. It is mentioned in Uttra Khand: “Countless chariots were flying in the sky. Their shadows on earth looked like the multitudes of locusts.” All these chariots belonged to Ram Ji yet he still needed a bridge. 6.) Ravan having more than one head. We believe this is a symbolisation of Ravan’s strength and/or bhagti which has been wrongly misinterpreted. In all this let us conclude as to the imperfections of Ram ‘Ji’ in the terms of Gurmat: 1.) The slaying of innocent Bali. 2.) The mistreatment of Seeta. 3.) The slaying of an innocent Shudra. 4.) Ram ‘Ji’s’ birth. To sum up Ram ‘Ji’ was neither the perfect king or husband. Neither was he virtuous or loving towards all his subjects. He was bound by the mentality of stratification and lead an anti-Gurmat life. Guru-Sahibaan definitely do not mean this Ram when they say: ਬਿਲਾਵਲ੝ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਭੂਲੇ ਮਾਰਗ੝ ਜਿਨਹਿ ਬਤਾਇਆ ॥ ਝਸਾ ਗ੝ਰ੝ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਮਨਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ੝ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ॥ ਬਸਿ ਰਹੇ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗ੝ਰ ਚਰਨ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੝ਰੋਧਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਨ੝ ਲੀਨਾ ॥ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟਿ ਮ੝ਕਤਿ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਕੀਨਾ ॥੨॥ ਦ੝ਖ ਸ੝ਖ ਕਰਤ ਜਨਮਿ ਫ੝ਨਿ ਮੂਆ ॥ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਆਸ੝ਰਮ੝ ਦੀਆ ॥੩॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਬੂਡਤ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਾਹ ਪਕਰਿ ਸਤਿਗ੝ਰਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੪॥੩॥੮॥ Bilaaval, Fifth Mehla: He places the one who strays back on the Path; such a Guru is found by great good fortune. ||1|| Meditate, contemplate the Name of the Lord, O mind. The Beloved Feet of the Guru abide within my heart. ||1||Pause|| The mind is engrossed in sexual desire, anger, greed and emotional attachment. Breaking my bonds, the Guru has liberated me. ||2|| Experiencing pain and pleasure, one is born, only to die again. The Lotus Feet of the Guru bring peace and shelter. ||3|| The world is drowning in the ocean of fire. O Nanak, holding me by the arm, the True Guru has saved me. ||4||3||8|| bilaaval mehalaa 5 || bhoolae maarag jinehi bathaaeiaa || aisaa gur vaddabhaagee paaeiaa ||1|| simar manaa raam naam chithaarae || bas rehae hiradhai gur charan piaarae ||1|| rehaao || kaam krodhh lobh mohi man leenaa || ba(n)dhhan kaatt mukath gur keenaa ||2|| dhukh sukh karath janam fun mooaa || charan kamal gur aasram dheeaa ||3|| agan saagar booddath sa(n)saaraa || naanak baah pakar sathigur nisathaaraa ||4||3||8|| Notes: ^ It seems Agni is more superior than Ram ‘Ji.’ * God. According to Gurbani Bhagat Balmik was a worshipper of Akal Purakh. In terms of Gurmat the Ramayan or tale of Ram ‘Ji’ is only a record by him not a scripture. ਬਾਲਮੀਕੁ ਸੁਪਚਾਰੋ ਤਰਿਓ ਬਧਿਕ ਤਰੇ ਬਿਚਾਰੇ ॥ Baalameek Supachaaro Thariou Badhhik Tharae Bichaarae || बालमीकु सुपचारो तरिओ बधिक तरे बिचारे ॥ Baalmeek the outcaste was saved, and the poor hunter was saved as well. 42735 ਮਾਰੂ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੯੯ ਪੰ. ੫ Raag Maaroo Guru Arjan Dev (Maru Mahala 5, pg. 999). ** From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married. Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come. When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound. So why call her bad? From her, kings are born. From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all. Guru Nanak, Raag Aasaa Mehal 1, Page 473. Bhai Gurdas pays further tributes to a woman in his vaar: “A woman is the favourite in her parental home loved dearly by her father and mother. In the home of her in-laws, she is the pillar of the family, the guarantee of its good fortune. Sharing in spiritual wisdom and enlightenment and with the noble qualities, with which (the Creator) has endowed her, a woman, the other half of man, escorts him to the door of liberation." (V.16). ***According to various rehatnamas Gurmukh is one who never goes back on his word. Notes: Many Hindus say that Ram is not a God but someone who embodies perfection. A virtuous and noble figure. However Ram’s legend does not hold true to this claim. Sikhs are forbidden from drinking and looking at a women (immorally) other than their own rightful spouse. Ram ‘Ji’ however was the opposite of this. It is said in the Balmik Ramayan, Sarg 125, Shalok 44: “He offered him (Hanuman) villages, 100 cows and 16 beautiful virgins.” Clearly a man who gave women away in this manner would not have stopped at the thought of treating them as sexual objects. In the Rehatnames it has been written: ‘Par nari ki sej, bhul supne hun na jayo' (never enjoy, even in dream, the bed of a woman other than your own wife) (A supplementary ordinance was issued that any one who did not observe any of the four directives, must be re- baptized, pay a fine, and promise not to offend any more; or he must be excommunicated from the Khalsa). Concerning intoxicants: ਸ੝ਆਦ ਲ੝ਭਤ ਇੰਦ੝ਰੀ ਰਸ ਪ੝ਰੇਰਿਓ ਮਦ ਰਸ ਲੈਤ ਬਿਕਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਭਾਗ ਸੰਤਨ ਸੰਗਾਨੇ ਕਾਸਟ ਲੋਹ ਉਧਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੩॥ Su▫ĝḝ lubẖaṯ inḝrī ras pareri▫o maḝ ras laiṯ bikĝri▫o re. Karam bẖĝg sanṯan sangĝne kĝsat loh uḝẖĝri▫o re. (3) Those who are deluded by sensual pleasures, who are tempted by sexual delights and enjoy wine are corrupt. But those who, through destiny and good karma, join the Society of the Saints, float over the ocean, like iron attached to wood.(3) (SGGS p335). More shabads can be found. An immoral man such as Ram ‘Ji’ cannot be the Ram which the Guru’s taught about. He is clearly a mortal ingrossed in himself. Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji fought for religion. He battled the Mughals four times and achieved a stunning victory over them in each battle. Through his battles he expounded the need of weapons for a religion under persecution. Guru Gobind Singh Ji also fought 14 battles in the same spirit against Hindu and muslim fanatics. Ram ‘Ji’ only fought a battle for his own personal slight. Nor did he leave any Granth or teachings as his legacy. Clearly he is not a religious figure. Although it is agreed Balmik composed original Ramayana it is today a matter of debate as to the verses prevalent in the epic. Originally thought to be 24,000, today it consists of 40,000. Hindu extremists have no explanation to this. Many historians believe that Balmik Ji borrowed Ramayana from the Buddhist Dasrath Jatka and changed the storyline. The Buddhist version states that Sita was the sister of Ram 'Ji.' Hence he committed incest by marrying her. Mahatma Gandhi never condemned caste-ism, he only condemned untouchability as a physical act. Ayodhya is described as a city with sky scrapers and infrastructure embedded with gems. Archaeologists are yet to find all this. Ram Chandar is not found in the Vedas. Now I want to do one on how Guru Gobind Singh Ji is not an incarnation of Krishna and how Krishna differs from Gurmat. Can anyone provide me with info that is shabads from Gurbani and Dasam Granth to start me off please?
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