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  1. By no means is this post intended to hurt the patriotism of these respective nations, but I just cannot help myself and criticize their education system. In India, under 'the great reformer', BJP, a new educational booklet has been published. The Tejomay Bharat aims to teach: STEM CELL RESEARCH In case you didn’t know this, Stem Cell Research, for example, dates back to the Mahabharat and the Vedic times. The text book explains, by citing the text of the mythological epic-poem which Hindus consider gospel: “… Kunti had a bright son like the sun itself. When Gandhari, who had not been able to conceive for two years, learnt of this, she underwent an abortion. From her womb a huge mass of flesh came out. (Rishi - sage) Dwaipayan Vyas was called. He observed this hard mass of flesh and then he preserved it in a cold tank with specific medicines. He then divided the mass of flesh into 100 parts and kept them separately in 100 tanks full of ghee for two years. After two years, 100 Kauravas were born of it ... This was found in India thousands of years ago.” [Page 92-93, Tejomay Bharat] TELEVISION Of course … it was invented by - er - Hindus - during the Mahabharat times. “Indian rishis using their yog vidya would attain divya drishti. There is no doubt that the invention of television goes back to this… In Mahabharata, Sanjaya sitting inside a palace in Hastinapur and using his divya shakti would give a live telecast of the battle of Mahabharata… to the blind Dhritarashtra”. [Page 64] THE AUTOMOBILE “What we know today as the motorcar existed during the Vedic period. It was called anashva rath. Usually a rath (chariot) is pulled by horses but an anashva rath means the one that runs without horses or yantra-rath, what is today a motorcar. The Rig Veda refers to this…” [Page 60] The 125-page book, Tejomay Bharat, that these passages are excerpted from was recently mandated as supplementary reading by the Gujarat government for all government primary and secondary schools. Published by the Gujarat State School Textbook Board(GSSTB), the book seeks to teach children “facts” about history, science, geography, religion and other “basics”. Tejomay Bharat (literally, Shining India) is to be distributed along with eight books written by Dina Nath Batra, a member of the national executive of Vidya Bharati (Indian Education), the educational wing of the RSS, which is the ideological base of the current government and ruling party. Batra’s books, translated into Gujarati and published by the GSSTB, have also been mandated as supplementary reading by the state government. Each of these books carries a customised message from Prime Minister Narendra Modi (then chief minister), while Batra’s books praise him and the GSSTB. Tejomay Bharat carries a message from Modi praising the GSSTB for republishing the book. The book has chapters such as Adhyatmik Bharat (spiritual India), Akhand Bharat (undivided India), Vigyanmay Bharat (scientific India), and Samarth Bharat (competent India). The book’s content advisor is Harshad Shah, vice-chancellor ofChildrens’ University in Gandhinagar who was Gujarat chairman of Vidya Bharti till 2006. The review committee includes Ruta Parmar and Rekha Chudasama, both associated with Vidya Bharati. Vice-chancellor Shah explains: “Tejomay Bharat gives an insight to students about our rich culture, heritage, spiritualism and patriotism. The language has been kept simple, which is apt for students. These are to be given free of cost to all schools, while 5,000 copies priced at Rs 73 ($1.40) have been prepared for those other than students.” Asked how schools would reconcile the “facts” of Tejomay Bharat with the NCERT syllabus, the Deputy Commissioner, Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan, Ahmedabad region, P Dev Kumar, said, “Being a government servant, I am here to follow and implement government policies. Though we have not been told of any change in the NCERT curriculum for this academic session, if there is any for the next year, we have to wait and watch.” Tejomay Bharat also objects to the country being called India. “We should not demean ourselves by calling our beloved Bharatbhoomi by the shudra (low-caste) name ‘India’. What right had the British to change the name of this country?… We should not fall for this conspiracy and forget the soul of our country [Page 53].” There’s more. ON BIRTHDAYS “Birthdays should be celebrated by shunning the western culture of blowing candles. Instead, we should follow a purely Indian culture by wearing swadeshi clothes, doing a havan and praying to ishtadev (preferred deity), reciting mantras such as Gayatri mantra, distributing new clothes to the needy, feeding cows, distributing prasad and winding up the day by playing songs produced by Vidya Bharati.” [Page 59] LANGUAGE POLICY “The current language policy allows for the domination of English language which results in Sanskrit being sidelined. By not learning Sanskrit, students will be deprived of the vast knowledge that our epics have on our culture.” “The mother tongue should be the first language with 20 per cent aside for Sanskrit, Hindi should be the second language … and Sanskrit or any other foreign language should be the third language.” [shikshan nu Bhartiyakaran (Indianisation of Education), Chapter on “National Unity and Education“] NATIONAL HOLIDAYS These should include August 14, Pakistan’s Independence Day, which should be celebrated as “Akhand Bharat Smriti Divas”. Because “Undivided India is the truth, divided India is a lie. Division of India is unnatural and it can be united again… MAP OF INDIA Drawing a map of India? Make sure you include Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Myanmar. These are part of undivided India or “Akhand Bharat”. [Page 49] * * * * * If the name Dina Nath Batra, the author of these brilliant text books, rings a bell, there’s a reason why. Batra’s civil suit earlier this year had led to the pulping of American scholar Wendy Doniger’s book on Hinduism. Batra asked India’s Supreme Court to ban the book. Penguin, the publisher, caved in and withdrew the book, promising to destroy all of the copies left in stock. (Courtesy of the Times of India). Then we have the Pasthuns in Pakistan attempting to reintegrate themselves in the Afghani psyche and claiming they have been the perpetual victors in any conflict which they have engaged in. http://historyofpashtuns.blogspot.com/2014/07/afghan-sikh-wars.html?m=1 (the bright spark beyond this posted this on a thread in this forum). Myths and facts with the facts hidden. http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/75089-battle-of-saragarhi-myths-and-facts/ Indian battles with Pakistan: Who won Kargill? In Pakistan you will most likely be told Pakistan. It may surprise you that under Maharajah Ranjit Singh 68-72 Bungas (Twarikh-E-Amritsar) ringed Darbar Sahib teaching an unbiased curriculum in philosophy, Gurmat, Vedanta, Islamic philosophy etc. Islamic schools in Batala and Sialkot, under the patronage of Ranjit Singh, ran famed courses which were attended by students from Arabia, Persia etc. Ironically that, and the colonial period, is probably the last time in sub-continental history that education remained free of religious bigotry, and political radicalism.
  2. Recently a member brought to my attention a thread on this forum which aims to denote the factual integrity of Saraghari as a myth. The essential crux, of this denotation, is that the British and Sikhs always re-wrote their losses in order to exhibit a sense of victory and self-proclaimed glory. In short, the initiator of the myths and facts analysis believes that the battle has been considerably hyped at the expense of his poor, yet silent suffering race. I could not resist going back to the history books again, and have written a rebuttal (if you may) to our doubting friend. I have used several significant military sources, all with proven credibility, and other verified texts in constructing the below article. If, however, some members feel I might have overstepped the mark then please inform me. 'Strength down to half but good news! Each one of us has now two rifles.' -Dispatch from the battle at Saraghari, 1897 A.D. (1) Leonidas and his 300 Spartans established a new and unique military doctrine at Thermopylae. Named after the locus of their last stand, the Thermopylean conflict is a sporadic occurrence in military pragmatism. Fundamentally it pits a much superior offence against an inferior defense (although anomalies exist). Leonidas and his 300 men themselves faced a much superior force of 100-150,000 Persians during their last stand. (2) Their main aim was to detract or delay the foe until a much poignant rival force could be collated from mainland Greece. In this they succeeded, although by forfeiting their own lives. A step-by-step surgical analysis of their strategy inaugurates the following: -The defense will often be an archetypal last stand. Its constituents will be foolhardy in the defense of their aims, but not to the extent of heedlessness. -The offence will be forced to blunt it's initial thrust, or establish a new stratagem, as the defense will occupy a much better strategically placed locus. At Thermopylae Leonidas placed his men in a narrow passage. The Persians were forced to re-vamp their initial tactic and faced a Spartan picket bristling to the teeth. -The offence will be forced to utilize a tidal technique, although this is not necessary. A well ensconced, and established defense, cannot be attacked with a straight-forward march and confront technique. Often attrition will have to be adopted as a principle Modus operandi, and the defense will be assaulted by different companies in a repetitive fashion. -The foremost aim of the defense is to either buy time for reinforcements or a collation of forces on an unprecedented scale. If it succeeds in this, despite forfeiting itself, it has succeeded in it's designs and desires. -Technological, geographical, intelligence and disciplinary ingenuity all play a pivotal role in a Thermopylean conflict. If possessed by the defense, then a plausible modicum of success is ensured although to what extent is determined by it's own subsequent conduct in the engagement itself. These doctrines were well established in the mind of Lt. Col John Haughton, of the 36th Sikhs, as he marched towards fort Lockhart in the Samana ranges of the Hindu Khush. An avid veteran of Afghani warfare his mission was clear. To neutralize any plausible ally of Czarist Russia, in the North-West Frontier, via utilizing several companies of his battalion efficiently and fluidly. His forward base was to be at Fort Lockhart, neighbored by it's sibling Fort Gulistan in the present day North-Western Frontier. Initial intelligence briefings indicated that local Islamic leaders had been whipping up a pandemonium in the regional Afghani Afridi and Orakzai tribesmen. Haughton ordered his officers to be on their guard whilst simultaneously dispatching a small task-force towards Saraghari. The latter was a military outpost, constructed for helicographic contact between Lockhart and Gulistan. Despite their immediate vicinity, both forts were separated by rugged and mountainous terrain and were not immune to elemental disruption. The helicograph became a pivotal tool for keeping both in contact, a fact which did not escape Afghani watchers. On September 3rd, 1897 A.D., 5,000 Orakazai horsemen attacked Gulistan. The 130 Sikhs, occupying the fort, under Maj. C.H. Desvoeux and Lt. A.K. Blair offered exceptional resistance forcing the Orakazais to retreat. (3) Five days later a more substantial force of tribesmen returned. Two days later they were forced to retreat via Haughton himself, who arrived with 150 Sikhs from Lockhart. (4) Realizing that Saraghari might be a potential target, Haughton reinforced the communications outpost until at full strength it possessed one NCO and 20 OR's (other ranks). The ingenuity of the tribesmen was to however obfuscate him soon, and thrust him into dire straits. On 12th September, the 19 year oldhelicograph operator, Gurmukh Singh, reported a mass movement towards the outpost, to his superior Havildar Ishar Singh. Both men ascended to a higher platform and attempted to analyze the situation. The Havildar finally gauged that it was potent sign of war. Waves upon waves of Afridi and Orakzai tribesmen were marching towards Saraghari. Calmly ordering Gurmukh Singh to inform Haughton and request reinforcements, Ishar Singh prepared to be besieged. Haughton's reply has not been properly established. Two conflicting versions have been put into play. The initial states that he sent a reliving force towards Ishar Singh but it encountered marauding tribesmen, whereas another states that his resources were stretched. The former seems more likely. Under the aegis of Gul Badshah, the tribesmen were striving to conquer Gulistan. (5) The latter would have been a mass improbability if Saraghari had been reinforced by Lockhart. Thus it seems Haughton's substantiated refusal was justified not by a lack of manpower, but by a stringent blockading of his passage towards Ishar Singh. Ultimately, whatever the vindication Ishar Singh found himself solely confronting a murderous horde of blood thirsty tribesmen. Whilst Havildar Singh called a Chinese Parliament* and attempted to form a course of action, Gurmukh Singh repeatedly cast up to date minutes to Haughton. At 9.00 am he signaled the arrival of Afridis and Orakzais. Subsequently battle was joined. The 20 men under Ishar Singh refused to surrender to the foe. The ancestors of the latter had indulged in religious bigotry, and rapine on their sacrosanct land of Punjab. Their own ancestors had refused to give or take any quarter from them, and they too wanted to emulate this valorous tradition. By the time the first shot had been fired, all 21 men inside the post had determined to die defending their mission. The location of Saraghari prevented Gul Badshah from employing the tried and tested tactic of foolhardy charges. He was forced to adopt attrition as a means of achieving his goal. Organizing his men in batches of 150-180 companies (6) he dispatched them towards the communications post. The Havildar meanwhile had been witnessing these proceedings and gauged the inferiority of the tribal artillery. Armed with the newest Martini-Henry rifle, effective up to 600 yards, the 21 besieged waited until the tribal waves were in range and then fired. (7) Their murderous volley repeatedly dwindled the attackers until finally, before midday, Gul Badshah himself came to the fore. An astute negotiator, Badshah brought his entire skill set to the fore. He argued with Ishar Singh that resistance was futile and the deaths of his 20 men would achieve nothing. If all 21 emerged from the fort then he would let them leave unharmed, whilst Haughton would vindicate them due to the numerical foe they faced. Both Singh, and he, were leaders of men and thus knew the intricacies of the battlefield and leadership. The aphorism live to fight another day would serve them both well. Singh, with an emphasized candor, rebutted his offer word for word and a resigned Badshah summarily left. The battle then recommenced. Haughton meanwhile was attempting to gauge the numerical superiority of Badshah. Along with his men, veterans of earlier Afghan campaigns, he identified 14 religious ensigns. Bringing his past experience to the fore, he summarily concluded that Ishar Singh faced 10-12,000 tribal's out of which only less than 200 were able to engage the Sikhs at any given time. (8) The unequal locus of Saraghari was too narrow for an en-massed assault, and too open for a lightening skirmish. Ishar Singh, so far, had utilized the battlefield well but would he be able to hold out until a much superior relief arrived? The fate of Gulistan, and neighboring British protectorates, was no longer in his (Haughton's) hands. Only time would tell if a single NCO, and his 21 men, proved successful or not. Gurmukh Singh continually kept on relaying up-to-date briefings to Lockhart. By now more than 3-4 hours had elapsed since first contact and the 21 Sikhs had eaten no food or drunk water. They had fought off two assaults and suffered two casualties. Still, they continued to operate like clockwork fixedly targeting the offenders and either forcing them to retreat or killing them. Their own numbers were also beginning to dwindle. Bhagwan Singh was the first to be killed thus reducing the strength of the defenders to 20. Ammunition was also beginning to run out. Gurmukh Singh signaled to Haughton, asking for more ammunition, the Lt. Col attempted to disperse the masses swirling on the Lockhart-Saraghari rout with no success. He signaled back his inability. (9) By now Badshah himself was in desperate straits. Saraghari's location made his favored stratagem of a massed charge obsolete. The defenders were not willing to surrender, and his remaining numbers were becoming swiftly disgruntled as more time elapsed since the initial engagement. Despite breaching two pickets, the communication post still stood defiantly. Discipline was lacking among his men, who preferred the commands of different leaders simultaneously, and moral was low. Then, he spied a chance at victory. Sending his non-fighters to the scrub bordering the outpost, he had them set it on fire thus blinding the defenders (who, by now, it is believed had only less then eight men). He then sent two men to make a breach on the defender's wild side. Haughton, and his men, watched with increasing trepidation as the blinded defenders attempted to put out what they perceived as being an internal fire. This allowed several tribesmen to make a breach and enter the outpost. (10) With misery the Lt. Col watched as Ishar Singh took a last minute decision to continue fighting. Via Gurmukh Singh's relays, Haughton learnt of the Havildar's final decision. Ishar Singh ordered his men to fall back to the outpost's inner layer, whilst taking a bayonet and jumping into the mass of the bloodthirsty foe himself. In fierce hand-to-hand fighting he was wounded several times before finally being killed. His action, and sacrifice, allowed Gurmukh Singh enough time to relay to Haughton that the stampede which the defender's now faced itself was constrained by the outpost's size. Ultimately the inner layer itself was breached. The remaining Sikhs fought back with intense gusto until their last breath in an emulation of their Havildar. The 19 year old Gurmukh Singh, then himself jumped into the fray. According to Haughton, he signaled a request to enjoin the fray. The Lt. Col granted him his last desire with a heavy heart. (11) Saraghari had finally fallen. It is not known what subsequent course Badshah took next. His men, it seems, were mutinous and wanted to rest. His initial incentive had been to seize Gulistan but he had failed in this respect. Paramount discipline, and an efficient chain of command, was also lacking among his men. They preferred the commands of several different tribal chieftains at a time. Thus he was forced to give in and wait. By the next day however he found himself besieged. A potent relief force had been collated and attacked the resting tribesmen on the night of the 13th. Clockwork discipline again played a part, and Badshah was routed. Thus ended the Afghani attempt at conquering Gulistan. Havildar Ishar Singh, and his men, had succeeded in their mission. An Analysis. Despite more than a century elapsing since the battle of Saraghari, it is still being passionately debated in academic and military circles. The below points are often raised whenever the battle is studied: 1.) Did the Afghans gain a Phyrric victory? 2.) What was their ultimate goal? 3.) Is it possible for 21 men to face an onslaught by 10,000 men? 4.) What allowed Ishar Singh to hold out for the better part of a day? 5.) How accurate is Haughton's initial assessment of 10-12,000 attackers? 6.) How many casualties were incurred by the tribesmen on the 12th and the 14th? A.1.) Did the Afghans gain a Phyrric victory? A Phyrric victory is a victory gained at such a cost that any subsequent actions/courses are rendered obsolete by the reduction in the victor's forces. The Afghani incentive was to conquer Gulistan. They did not succeed thus a Phyrric victory is out of the question as they cannot be deemed as being the victors at Saraghari. A.2.) What was their ultimate goal? Gulistan, but what they intended to do subsequently is a mystery. Most historians promulgate that after Gulistan, Lockhart would have been the second target. Again, this might or might not be related to the factual truth. The swiftness with which Gul Badshah lead his men indicates that either he wanted to pursue a Fabian strategy, i.e. collate resources and men until they outnumbered Lockhart and thus force Haughton into submission; or launch a massed strike against it as well. A.3.) Is it possible for 21 men to face an onslaught by 10,000 men? Military history does not propose 'what happened' but 'what could, should or would have happened.' If we surgically analyze Saraghari we will see several different elements supporting the Sikhs. 1.) They were well entrenched and experienced soldiers. 2.) They could easily counter any decisive assault due to their location which would have been narrow for 200 men or more. 3.) They occupied higher terrain, thus they were well placed to witness any raid forming and counter it. 4.) They possessed a superior range in firearms. Their Henry Martini rifle reached up to 600 yards, thus giving them a longer reach. 5.) One has to remember that Haughton estimated there to be 10-12,000 attackers based on the banners and tactics of the tribesmen. How many actually attacked the outpost at a single time (the tidal wave theory) has not been established. Contemporaneous Afghani sources state 150-180, although these would probably have dwindled as the attackers reached the terrain on which Saraghari was situated. One also has to remember that the classic Charge-Trench ideologue did not exist at Saraghari. This was not Beersheba where horsemen charged trenches. Saraghari was a well fortified structure thus blunting the Afghani offensive. A.4.) What allowed Ishar Singh to hold out for the better part of a day? An able NCO, Singh was already a prior veteran of Afghanistan. Subsequently he was also well versed in military strategy and adaptive, essential traits which assist all military leaders. He utilized the high vantage of Saraghari, the instruments at his disposal and the training of his men. High Vantage- This would have considerably reduced the number of foes approaching, slowed their ascent and also given him time for a counter-offensive. Instruments at his disposal- The Martini-Henry rifle possessed an accurate range of 600 yards (548.64 m). Ishar Singh is said to have ordered 'fire'when the tribesmen passed the 300 yard (274.32 m) mark. Although the tribesmen possessed their own arsenal, this was not as advanced as the Sikh rifles. Combined with the clockwork precision of his men, the superior Martini would have played a cardinal role in Singh's strategy which was to delay the foe. Training of men- Via Gurmukh Singh's briefings, it has been theorized that Ishar Singh utilized a clockwork plan of action. This called for equal teams of soldiers firing upon the charging foe. Given his own prominence in the affair he would have divided his 20 men team (Gurmukh Singh was signalling) into either 4 lots of five or 5 lots of 4. The former would have seen three teams firing from their own respective positions in the outpost. One team would then have been replaced by another fresher team, while it reloaded and reinforced another. The fourth relieving team would have also reinforced another simultaneously, thus ensuring a rapidity in the assaulting fire. Via the 5 lots of 4 a similar pattern would have emerged although it's effectiveness is debatable. A.5.) How accurate is Haughton's initial assessment of 10-12,000 attackers? Valor aside, the British military was not as obdurate as is cast. It rapidly adapted to the foe's tactics and learnt lessons from near defeats and victories on the battlefield. The First and Second Anglo-Afghan Wars (ranging from 1839-1880 A.D.) had taught it several new principles of Afghani warfare. Haughton himself, a Lt. Col, would have engaged in the Second Anglo-Afghan war and thus observed the proceedings. Afghani tribes, and even military leaders, preferred an en-mass cavalry charge against strategic locations. The psychological effect of seeing a mass body of horsemen, bearing down upon them, would have petrified many opposing forces into surrender. Afghani cavalry tactics often called for 150 men or more (12) to line up in equal lines and charge the foe. Not only did this provide momentum but also immediate relief if required. Whilst confronting such a horde the British would often dismount and then engage. The massed attacks on the 3rd of September, and afterwards, corroborate Haughton's estimates. On the aforementioned date it was estimated that at least 5,000 tribesmen, or upwards, attacked Lockhart. Whilst engaging forts, Badshah would have been well aware of the need of continuous momentum, and rejuvenated men. Cast as crude, his strategy, if looked at from a new light makes profound sense. He would have utilized the tidal theory. 10,000 men divided into 150 companies would have given him 66-67 attacking formations. Their large number would have allowed for continuous momentum, replacement of men and also simultaneous action if they would have been confronted by a joint task force from both Gulistan and Lockhart. He would have reinforced his initial 5,000 with double that number to be on the safe side. A.6.) How many casualties were incurred by the tribesmen on the 12th and the 14th? Upon capturing the field, the relieving force accounted 450 bodies. The latter were the tribesmen who had been killed on the 12th,13th and 14th. Gul Badshah would initially state that Ishar Singh and his men killed 150 of his tribesmen although he would soon change the number to 180. (13) British estimates varied. Given that the attacker often forfeits more men then the defender (14), it can safely be said that at least 30-40% of the casualties would plausibly have been inflicted by Singh and his men. The British estimated there to be at least twice as many wounded tribesmen. The latter never ventured to release the official number of their dead and wounded given their ironic defeat. Upon learning of their gallantry, the British government gloriously applauded the actions of the 21 deceased at Saraghari. Entranced by their valor Queen Victoria awarded each of the Sikhs the Indian order of Merit (the sub-continent's then highest military honor) and allotted a pension and land grant for their next of kin. Presently the battle has been reduced to military textbooks, but it's legend still abounds. These 21 men engraved an unique niche in historicity along with Leonidas and the countless others who engaged in a Thermopylean battle. In death they serve as an inspiration beacon, forever proclaiming 'duty onto death!' The deceased: Havildar Ishar Singh (regimental number 165). Naik Lal Singh (332). Lance Naik Chanda Singh (546). Sepoy Sundar Singh (1321). Sepoy Ram Singh (287). Sepoy Uttar Singh (492). Sepoy Sahib Singh (182). Sepoy Hira Singh (359). Sepoy Daya Singh (687). Sepoy Jivan Singh (760). Sepoy Bhola Singh (791). Sepoy Narayan Singh (834). Sepoy Gurmukh Singh (814). Sepoy Jivan Singh (871). Sepoy Gurmukh Singh (1733). Sepoy Ram Singh (163). Sepoy Bhagwan Singh (1257). Sepoy Bhagwan Singh (1265). Sepoy Buta Singh (1556). Sepoy Jivan Singh (1651). Sepoy Nand Singh (1221). Sources and footnotes: *Chinese Parliament- A military congregation where rank is not customary or obligatory. Any decision manifested is entirely democratic. 1.) Accessed from http://magellanclubforkids.com/2012/09/20/against-all-odds/ 2.) Cassin S.J; (1977) The Greek and Persian Wars 500-323 B.C. Osprey publishers, pg. 11. It is customary to acknowledge that whereas modern scholars give this figure, contemporaneous scholars estimated at least a million Persian soldiers to be present. 3.) Sidhu S.D, Virdi A; The Battle of Saraghari, The Last Stand of the 36th Sikh Regiment. Gyan Khand Media, India, pg. 3. 4.) ibid, pg. 3. 5.) ibid, pg. 4. 6.) Badsey S; (2008) Doctrine and Reform in the British Cavalry, 1880-1918, Barnes and Nobles, UK, pg. 150. Additionally see 3,000 years of Warfare for a profound exegesis of Attrition. 7.) Accessed from http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/History/First150/238-Defending-Saragarhi.html 8.) Accessed from http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-history/12117-battle-saragarhi-21-sikhs-versus-10-000-pathans.html 9.) Accessed from http://khalsa-raaj.blogspot.co.nz/2011/09/battle-of-saraghari.html 10.) Accessed from http://swordarm.in/?page_id=21 11.) Accessed from http://magellanclubforkids.com/2012/09/20/against-all-odds/ 12.) Badsey S; (2008) Doctrine and Reform in the British Cavalry, 1880-1918, Barnes and Nobles, UK, pg. 150. 13.) Maj. Gen. Jaswant Singh Letter to H.M. Queen Elizabeth II Institute of Sikh Studies (1999). 14.) Singh; A (2010) The Last Sunset, Roli Publishing a division of Lotus Books. See sub-section titled First-Anglo Sikh War. http://tisarpanth.blogspot.co.nz/2014/08/21.html?view=magazine The question and answer component was done with the aid of a military historian. If you possess any questions on it then please post them below, and I will forward them to him. Thank you.
  3. Breaking News: We are sorry to bring the following news. Suspected arson attack at Dera in Pakistan. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Agan Bhet and Gutka Sahibs Further information is being sought and Sikh Channel will report as soon as possible. Source: All Pakistan Hindu Panchayat courtesy: Sikh Channel
  4. A tense calm prevailed in some Sindh and Balochistan provinces after mobs set on fire to shops, dharamsalas and damaged some statues of Hindu deities in temples on Saturday night in protest against alleged desecration of a holy book Karachi: An angry mob attempted to set ablaze temples and gurdwaras in a southwestern Pakistan province over alleged desecration of a holy book in Sindh, local media reported on Monday. Security personnel in the restive Balochistan province ensured that no damage was done to religious places belonging to the two minority communities. Protests were held across Balochistan on Sunday. The mob set afire a number of shops in Jaffarabad. A large number of people tried to attack temples and gurdwaras, Dawn daily said in a report on its website. They also tried to enter Hindu localities, but police and security personnel foiled the attempt. Police fired in the air to stop the protesters from attacking a temple in Dera Allahyar area. All shops, markets and commercial centres were closed in the districts of Jaffarabad, Nasirabad and Sobatpur bordering Sindh. Security has been beefed up in and around temples and gurdwaras while police is patrolling Hindu and Sikh localities. The mob on Sunday attacked a temple in Larkana city, the hometown of the Bhutto family and the stronghold of the Pakistan People's Party. The Hindu man, who was accused of blasphemy, has been taken into protective custody. http://www.mid-day.com/articles/communal-riots-hit-pakistan-mob-targets-temples-gurdwaras-over-alleged-blasphemy/15163088
  5. Aftab Ahmad Monday, December 23, 2013 PESHAWAR: A United Kingdom-born researcher, writer, historian and award-winning filmmaker, Bobby Singh Bansal, has said 90 per cent of the Sikh heritage sites are located in Pakistan, mostly in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KP). The writer, who is considered an authority on the Sikh history and heritage in Pakistan, visited Peshawar and other parts of KP for a week to explore the community heritage sites for his upcoming book, Sikh Monuments of Pakistan and India. Talking to The News, the 45-year old writer said during his Pakistan trip he visited for documentation various forts built during the Sikh rule. I have already been to Jamrud and Shabqadar forts and saw the Balahisar from outside. Other Sikh-era forts include those in Bara, Lockhart, Michini, Bannu, Dera Ismail Khan, Haripur, Mansehra and Oghi. I have explored the ruins of Khairabad, Akora Khattak and Jehangira forts [in Nowshera district] built by the Sikhs, he explained. Bansal visited the site of the famed March 14, 1823 battle of Nowshera and located Samadh of Bhai Phoola Singh Akali, a general of the Sikh Army who fell in the battle and was cremated on the site located near the northern bank of Kabul River at Pir Sabak. Asked what motivated him to document the Sikh heritage sites, he said although he was born in England, his roots were in Pakistan. My parents belong to Rawalpindi. I used to visit the holy Sikh sites in this country. This created a desire to conduct research on the subject and give it the shape of publication or film, said Bansal, who has authored, The Lions Firangis: Europeans in the Court of Lahore in 2010 to trace the history of the chief European officers in the service of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh right up to their present descendants living in various parts of the world. Bansal said the response to his first publication encouraged him to produce and direct in 2012 a documentary film Sikhs of Kabul that highlighted the plight of the community whose numbers have dwindled considerably in the Afghan capital. This year he produced another film Sikhs of Burma to be screened in March next year. I have a strong belief that this is our shared heritage and not just for the Sikhs of Pakistan but for Sikhs globally, he said. He called for conservation of the ancient monuments, gurdwaras, forts and havelies associated with his community in Pakistan. Bansal believed documentation of the Sikh heritage sites would also benefit Pakistan. I want all the Sikh heritage sites here documented and put on the tourist map. Every year thousands of Sikh yatris come to Panja Sahib and Nankana Sahib. It is my wish that these yatris should also visit sites of military, historic and religious significance for Sikhs when they are in Pakistan. This will boost tourism and help the Sikhs to know about these places and strengthen their identity, he stressed. The researcher has the conviction that the heritage sites should be owned and conserved without any discrimination. During my current visit, I discussed issues pertaining to gurdwaras that are falling apart and are in need of urgent protection. The problem of paucity of funds can be overcome once the matter is publicised at the international level, said Bansal, who is father of two. He deplored that there is a lot of propaganda about the security situation in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. I have been to this province several times and even during my present visit I found security situation satisfactory. The people are kind and hospitable. But it is strange that there is negative impression about this province in the outside world that needs to be dispelled, he said. In his quest for searching the Sikh history, Bansal went to Italy recently because the second Sikh Governor of Peshawar from 1838 to 1842, General Paolo Di Avitabile (October 25, 1791 - March 28, 1850) was an Italian. He met the family members of Avitabile in Naples. He wanted Peshawar and an Italian town Agerola of Naples declared sister cities. The researcher even brought a letter from the Agerola mayor about the twinning, but is yet to be contacted by the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa government to help materialise the plan. Just think of the attention Peshawar will get when an Italian or any tourist learns that Agerola is a sister city of Peshawar, argued Bansal. Peshawar is an important ancient living city. During my current visit I went to Gurwarda Bhai Joga Singh Sahib in Dabgari and met several fellow Sikhs. I attended the 91st birthday of legendary actor Dilip Kumar (Muhammad Yousaf Khan) in his hometown and met government representative on the minorities affairs Sardar Soran Singh. I visited several other towns and delivered a lecture at the Hazara University at Mansehra on the Sikh heritage monuments of Pakistan. I am returning to Britain with fond memories and this will compel me to come again he added. http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-221995-90pc-Sikh-heritage-sites-are-in-Pakistan
  6. Islamabad, July 20 (ANI): Another shameless incident of desecrating Sikh holy book Guru Granth Sahib was reported at the Shikarpur gurdwara in Sindh Province of Pakistan. The Daily Times reports that some unknown people at Gurdwara Khat Wari Darbar in Store Ganj area of Shikarpur had torn 24 pages of the sacred book causing annoyance and fear among the Sindhi Sikhs. According to the report, a case has been registered under section 295 Pakistan Penal Code (PPC) against unknown person in the local police station. ASP Tariq Wilayat said that the police are still on the lookout for the actual culprit. However, the recent tussle between the Sikh and Hindu community has created doubts that some local Hindus might be involved. (ANI)
  7. CHANDIGARH: The Pakistan government has decided to declare 'Panja Sahib' a holy city and would initiate efforts to sort out all issues related to the welfare of the Sikhs living at the pilgrimage site. This was stated by the President of Pak-Indo friendship association and legal consulate ministry of interior government of Pakistan Arif Chaudhry, during his meeting with the Punjab chief minister Parkash Singh Badal here, an official release said here. Panja Sahib is believed to house a rock having the hand print of Guru Nanak, founder of Sikh religion, and is a popular pilgrimage spot for Sikhs across the world. Chaudhary also invited Badal to Pakistan to attend a function organized by the Association on this occasion, the schedule of which would be finalized as per his convenience. Accepting the invitation, Badal said that he had always championed the cause for further strengthening bilateral ties between India and Pakistan through opening Hussainiwal and Fazilka border that would give impetus to trade. He hoped with the formation of the new government in Pakistan, the bilateral relations would further improve and new business and cultural exchange avenues would be worked out through promoting people to people contact programmes. The Pakistan official said that the forum would also try to sort out all issues related to the welfare of Sikhs living at Panja Sahib. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Pak-set-to-declare-Panja-Sahib-as-holy-city/articleshow/20590054.cms
  8. June 18, 2013 by Zahid Gishkori Source: tribune.com.pk June 17, 2013: ISLAMABAD: History was made in the Punjab Assembly last week when Sardar Ramesh Singh Arora became the first Sikh in close to 67 years who entered into Pakistan’s biggest provincial assembly and took oath as a parliamentarian. Wearing a traditional orange-coloured turban, Sardar Arora walked into the packed assembly hall. Heads bearing warm smiles and broad grins turned in his direction and greeted the new member. A renowned social worker and leader of the Sikh community in Pakistan, Arora comes with a mission to use the shared religious linkages across borders to further peace and trade between Pakistan and India. Arora points out that the Gurdwaras in Nankana Sahib and Amritsar, sacred places for the Sikh community, are located only three to four kilometers away from the international border, but both Indian and Pakistani authorities do not let pilgrims from the other country visit the historical and sacred places. “I will play a key role to promote Pakistan-India diplomacy. We should negotiate with India by passing a resolution that Kartarpur corridors should be constructed to facilitate the visitors,” the Sikh parliamentarian said, adding that business between the two neighbours should be increased. “Kartarpur doors should be open for Indian pilgrims to easily come to Pakistan.” Arora, who grew up in in a modest Sikh family from Nankana Sahib in Punjab, before his family moved to the Kartarpur district, Narowal to serve at the Gurdwara Kartrarpur as a Granthi. His services to his community made him aware of the numerous Gurdwaras that are in immediate need of repairs. “My first job is to get a resolution passed for protection of Sikh’s Gurdwaras in Pakistan in Punjab.” Arora believes that some of the shrines may even need help from the federal government. “It’s a responsibility of the federal government to reopen some of the Sikh shrines by doing its homework,” he told The Express Tribune. As a Sikh, Arora is also troubled by the migration of Sikh community from the militant infested Tirah Valley in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. He complained that the National Database Registration Authority (NADRA) was not registering their children and were subsequently finding it difficult to find admissions in educational institutions. “We are creating a barrier for Sikh children not to go to school. Once they [children] do not get education—it means they are being deprived of their basic rights.” Several Sikh families migrated to Nankana Sahib, Hasanabad and other cities with Sikh population after some members their community were kidnapped last year by militants in the tribal areas. Despite this, and media reports, Arora believes Pakistan has a conducive environment for non-Muslims to live. “There is a very conducive environment for non-Muslims to live here in Pakistan. It’s totally a negative agenda. Pakistan is very much safe for minorities and provides equally opportunity to its minorities.” Arora strived for protection of minority rights and represented Pakistan’s image about minorities’ rights protection at international forums. The government of Pakistan appointed Arora as a member of the Pakistan Sikh Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. He promoted the commitment of the government to instill peace, equality, justice and tolerance within the Pakistani society. Arora follows the vision of the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah. “The imperative need of the moment is to eliminate all forces of violence, intolerance, extremism and discrimination and to create a peaceful, tolerant society.” ---------------------------------<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/68518840" width="398" height="292" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> http://www.sikhnet.com/news/first-sikh-parliamentarian-67-years-makes-history-update
  9. Keep your biased and nonsensical opinion to yourself. What do your pakistani punjabi youth do other then becoming qualified swindlers, thugs, sex groomers and finally jail bait. :lol2:
  10. NEW DELHI: India on Wednesday blamed Pakistan for trying to revive Sikh militancy and said that the neighbouring country's spy agency ISI continued to train misguided youth from the community to carry out terror attacks not only in Punjab but also in other parts of the country. Revealing the ISI'sgameplan, Union home minister SushilkumarShinde said, "Sikh youth based and settled in Europe and US are also being motivated in this regard". He said, "Sikh youth are being trained in ISI facilities in Pakistan. Interdictions and interrogations have revealed use of jailed cadres, unemployed youth, criminals and smugglers by Pak-based Sikh terror groups for facilitating terror attacks". Though the home minister did not give any specific example, he referred to interrogation reports of arrested militants and seizures of a large quantity of arms, ammunition and explosives, including RDX, which found its way into Punjab through the western borders, to substantiate his point. Addressing the chief ministers here at a conference on internal security, Shinde said the state police had recovered "significant quantity of RDX" during operations in Rajasthan and Punjab in the last one year. The home minister also underlined in his speech that the country continued to face serious challenges of its internal security scenario from "jehadi terrorists". He said, "India has long and porous border with Bangladesh and Nepal, which have been used by Pak-based jehadi groups to ex-filtrate terrorists out of India for training in Pakistan and induction of terrorists\hardware\finance into India for actions. "Jehadi tanzeems in Pakistan with affiliation to LeT, JeM and Indian Mujahideen (IM) have set up channels for transfer of funds from Pakistan to India via Gulf and Nepal, besides using Western Union money transfer and hawala channel. Moreover, ex-SIMI cadres and similar militant elements based in Gulf have also been observed collecting money for causing destruction in India". Referring to Jammu & Kashmir, Shinde said though the situation in the state was improved and terrorist strength in the Valley had declined, the cross border terrorist infrastructure remained intact. He said though there were reports that the number of terror training camps in Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir (PoK) had come down from 42 to 21, it needed to be verified. Stating that the terror groups were taking advantage of communication channels which have become more sophisticated over a period of time, the home minister said, "From mobile phones, terrorists today have moved on to use of satellite phones, Thuraya sets, use of spoofed IDs and coded transactions over e-mail and chat sessions, besides VoIP to communicate across the border". http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-blames-Pakistan-for-trying-to-revive-Sikh-militancy/articleshow/20440449.cms?
  11. In a historic milestone for the long persecuted Sikh community in Pakistan, a Sikh representative took oath as member of the Punjab Provincial Assembly, for the first time since the Partition. Nominated on a seat reserved for minorities by the Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N), Sardar Ramesh Singh Arora became the first Sikh Member of Provincial Assembly (MPA) in Punjab Province, in its first session, The Express Tribune reported. “As the first Sikh to have taken oath as a Parliamentarian in the Punjab Assembly since 1947, I am absolutely delighted to be part of this August house. The position certainly comes with a lot of responsibility. I will not only be representing my own community but all the minorities in the Province,” the report quoted him as saying. Arora said minorities in Pakistan would benefit from the PML-N’s drive to eliminate load shedding and to revive an economy mired in debt. He said his nomination to the Assembly came with great responsibility and that he would work for the rehabilitation of historical and religious sites of the Sikhs. PML-N is headed by incoming Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. Sharif’s brother Shahbaz will become Punjab’s Chief Minister for the third timewhen he takes oath on June 6. https://www.niticentral.com/2013/06/02/pakistan%E2%80%99s-first-sikh-parliamentarian-since-partition-takes-oath-84810.html
  12. AMRITSAR: Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) has sought slapping of murder charges against the officials of Kot Lakhpat jail, Pakistan, who 'are responsible for the death of an Indian prisoner Chamel Singh'. Chamel Singh was mercilessly beaten up by the staff of Kot Lakhpat jail on January 15 following which he succumbed to his injuries. Taking note of the incident SGPC president Avtar Singh Makkar on Friday said that the staff of Kot Lakhpat jail had failed to maintain the dignity of human values and killed a person who was under their security. "Instead of keeping him safe in jail, they killed him" he said. The SGPC president also expressed grave concern over kidnapping of a Sikh businessman Ranbir Singh in Quaidabad in Peshawar. "Pakistan government should ensure safety of minority communities" Makkar said. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Indian-prisoners-death-SGPC-seeks-action-against-staff-of-Kot-Lakhpat-jail/articleshow/18187017.cms
  13. I was sent by RAW but no one recognised me when I was in jail: Daniel IBNLive.com | Updated May 03, 2013 at 03:56pm IST Daniel hails from Gurdaspur district's Dadwain village and was apprehended by Pakistani rangers in 1993. He was jailed for over four years. He now pulls a rickshaw. He alleges that the Indian authorities who sent him across the border refused to recognise him and help him out once he was caught. According to him, he met many other Indians incarcerated in jail in Pakistan on espionage charges. Daniel, Indian who served jail term in Pakistan, joined IBNLive readers for an interaction on the life of an Indian in a Pakistani jail. Q. Once you came back, Did our politicians ans authority help you? Asked by: Mahesh V I was sent by RAW but no one recognised me when I was in jail: Daniel Daniel, Indian who served jail term in Pak, joined IBNLive readers for an interaction on his life in Pak jail. A. No they did not help me at all. Instead I was interrogated and tortured by policemen. They instead levied a case on me saying I willingly went to Pak. Q. How was you treated in Jain and by Pakistan Authority? Asked by: Mahesh V A. I was in Sialkot jail. I was severely tortured and severely beaten. Electric shocks and all. Q. When you approached Indian diplomats in Pakistan, what was the response you got? And who was helpful to understand? Asked by: Mahesh V A. For three days the consulate in Rawalpindi listened to me but nothing after this. Q. Do you feel like coming back to a country which fails to recognize you? This nation cares more about terrorists than our own citizen. Was there any effort taken by our holy politicians to save you? Asked by: Ravish A. I was sent by RAW. It's better not to ask me this question. I run my family by plying a rickshaw. My family did not get any help from the govt while I was in jail. Q. Why did the Indians send you across the border? Asked by: airbuss A. I was sent to spy on a few things. I can't say more. Q. Daniel, do you think there is an "Eye for an eye" philosophy in the jails in India and Pakistan, or both Sarbjit/Sanaullah were exceptional cases. Was there, ever, an incident of rough treatment meted out to you as an Indian prisoner in Pakistan? Asked by: Mansoor A. Yes, it is not of any use. But we should not expect anything from the govt. Q. does the fact that both Indian and Pakistani men are prisoners there,not enough to bind both nationals on humanitarian and emotional ground? Asked by: pallavi sakhare A. In an ideal world it should be. But the agencies on both sides of the border are heartless and just push forward the agenda of the state. Till common people take matters into their hands, nothing will change. Q. It became my perception with time that Indian govt particularly the Congress has no nationalistic agenda. Especially when it comes to nationalism (Indian people in Pakistani, Sri Lankan jail, national integrity) or the Indian Hindus conditions in domestic as well as internationally fora. They have only one focus Muslim vote-bank to be in power and nothing else. Asked by: Satya A. I can't say much about this. I am not an educated man. But during the BJP govt too, many young people were pushed in across the border. Some of them were caught and the Indian govt did not recognise them. It is not about parties but I may be wrong. Q. Because you was jailed in Pakistan, are you getting different treatment when you was looking for a job in India? Asked by: Mahesh V A. No one would give you a job, if you have been in jail. And if you were in a Pakistani jail, you get what I mean. No one would touch you even with a barge pole. Q. Why not talk about RAW? You were only doing a job...you better not pull rickshaw for life and rot for a good job you did? Why not struggle for compensation? Asked by: Irfan Sayed A. I don't know much about them. I was approached by them and did as I was told. I am happy to be alive. Compensation is a day dream for poor people like us. Q. Would you do it again? For the country? After all that's happened. Asked by: Shabbir A. Never, never again. All that talk about country is very rosy from the outside. Once you face the music, you will know. It's very murky. Q. How is life in Jail for an Indian in Pakistan Asked by: Alok A. Horrible but you have to tough it out as one has to come back to his family. It is just that hope that keeps you going.
  14. If as I see here: A quote from Kute Di Pooch Singh Gill: "The combined impact of these initiatives was that, by January 1989, the terrorists had been pushed into a thin strip along the Pakistan border, with over 70 per cent of their strikes restricted to just three of the twelve districts in Punjab – Gurdaspur, Amritsar and Ferozepur." Then it is not too far to assume that 70%+ of all deaths were also in those three districts. With a current day population touching about 7 million it is not too far to assume about half that 20-30 years ago. 3-400k dead; Being from the Doab, my mom for example can tell me about stuff that happened, she doesn't talk about it a lot, but it seems that no-one directly from my nuclear family was killed. I am wondering how different it is for those three districts, as in if I assume that over 1/3rd of the male youth for example (below 30-35? above 12??) were killed is thaat about accurate. The reason is, I'm trying to see how much of India's strategy is literally butchering everyone and if there's any order to it. They talk about 4 point plans, and in the end they did kill many of the mukhis of the jathe but how much of that is luck. Seeing this man's interview (former BSF officer) it points to just a butchering, but then why is it only Punjab's insurgency that was 'quelled'. Is it due to us cutting down the jungles, so therefore not having cover of those like in the NE (possibility). Or what? I understand I can be 90% sure, but would rather have more voices to hear and yea.. Pretty much that's it.
  15. I wanted to bring this to the sangats attention about a great facebook page showing the old historical gurdwaras in pakistan that are in very bad shape and need renovation. They are working to preserve these gurdwaras. Hope people will check out the beautiful pictures and support them Waheguru. Save the Historical Gurdwaras
  16. A Sikh businessman was kidnapped from Qaidabad, Peshawar, by unidentified armed men, Express Tribune reported on Wednesday. Rakbir Singh, a trader and shopkeeper in Peshawar’s Karkhano Market, was nabbed outside his house by armed men who overpowered him and shoved him into their car. Members of the Sikh community believe Rakbir has been kidnapped for ransom. “He goes to the temple to offer his prayers and then to his shop according to his daily routine,” said Sahib Singh, a former Sikh council member. “He was kidnapped while returning home.” Dozens of Sikhs staged a protest rally in front of the Chief Minister House on Wednesday to protest the kidnapping. The Banamarhi police have registered an FIR and started an investigation.
  17. Well I have seen alot of guys believing absolute myths about Pakistan... So , as probably the only person on this forum with Pakistani Muslim background , I would like to say few things... First thing Sikhs should understand is this ... Pakistan is the most "pro-Sikh" state in whole South Asia .... Sikhs in Pakistan have full rights..they work as doctors , policemen , engineers , pharmacists , technicians , politicians , singers , and even as Army officers ! The Islamic Republic of Pakistan treats Sikhs with outmost respect... Comparison between India and Pakistan when it comes to Sikhs : There are few things I'd like to point-out... Read and decide it for yourself...... 1-Pakistan recognize "Sikhism" as completely separate , independent , and unique religion...While India doesn't even recognize Sikhism. Sikhism is a mere 'branch of Hinduism' under Indian constitution... 2- In Pakistan , Sikhs have their own separate "marriage act" for decades now and they marry as "Sikh" on 'Sikh marriage forum' ...Whereas in India..Indian state didn't give Sikhs any marriage act..Sikhs married , throughout Indian history , on "Hindu marriage forums" ... 3- Pakistani state NEVER persecuted Sikhs or even touched their holy sites... Do I even need to mention what Indian state did in 1984? All these things are the reasons due to which Pakistani Sikhs consider themselves lucky that they left in Pakistani Punjab and didn't go to Indian Punjab... Listen it from the mouth of Sikhs themselves... See how Pakistani state care for its Sikh citizens..When terrorists killed two Sikhs (Others were saved by Pakistan Army!) ... Pakistan's deputy attorney general cleaned shoes of Sikhs in Amritsar , Golden Temple , Pakistan Gurdwaras etc ... "Pakistan's deputy attorney-general is to clean the shoes of thousands of devotees at India's Golden Temple in Amritsar in 'penance' for the beheading of a Sikh in Peshawar two years ago. After spending several hours polishing the shoes of worshippers at Gurdwara Sisganj in New Delhi on Monday, where he was part of a Pakistan Supreme Court Bar Association delegation, Muhammad Khurshid Khan left for Amritsar, home of the Golden Temple and the centre of the Sikh religion, to clean thousands more." http://www.telegraph...den-Temple.html Now compare that treatment with Indian state's treatment of Sikhs? In the light of all this... I request members to give your insight....What do you think about Pakistan? What do you think about Pakistani Punjab and Punjabi people residing in Pakistan? Why you dislike Pakistan? Why you like Pakistan? Lets have a friendly discussion here...May be we can learn alot from eachother and remove our misconceptions about eachother...Afterall , we are the sons of same land...same Punjab!
  18. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. I would just like to ask about the borders of a future Sikh nation if it where to exist. Many people include the whole of Himachal Pradesh as well as Haryana and parts of Rajasthan. Some maps even include Delhi. For those of you that support the formation of Khalistan, would you just like the current Indian state of Punjab to secede from India or would you like these other areas as well, despite them having a majority Hindu population. Also, from both a Sikh and Punjabi nationalist point of view, why is their no agitation to include West Punjab i.e. Pakistani Punjab into the proposed new nation. Would you not like to include Nankana Sahib in the new nation, as well as cities like Lahore which have a lot of historical significance. There is no doubt that human rights abuses take place in India, but should there not also be action or protests against Pakistan and their treatment of minorities. Or do you remain silent over the issue because you need the support of the Pakistani government for any activity against India. Surely you should campaign for the inclusion of the Sikhs in Pakistan and West Punjab in to a future state of Khalistan, yet I only see you protesting against the Indian government and I always see a lot of hatred for India. I am not trying to stir up hatred toward any group. I am just curious to why certain areas of India where there is not a Sikh majority are included in your proposed state, whereas areas of Pakistan where Sikhs exist but are in minority are not.
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