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Ok i think we are geting abit off the topic now, but I know akhara in london that charge hundreds of pounds to do a display and for venues to learn and mini busses etc this should not be the case in todays society as this is a seva to, what is going on with the money being saved in the account??

When doing seva this can also turn into a big hunkar but we should all try to share our knowledge and not put others down.

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Nice to see Gurbar Akaal on here. He can state way better than me the difference between shastar vidiya and gatka. 4giveme4mysins please read the topic i posted previously. I never said gatka was or is less effective because of the use of guns. I'm saying gatka is not shastar vidiya because of the experience I have had studing other martial arts. It can't be in my opinion the sikh martial art. I have never learned how to use my kirpan effectively in class. Just how to spin swords and do pattern type fighting and basic fencing which I enjoy. Heres some quotes from the other thread.

"Please don't use the words shastar vidiya and Gatka interchangably. They are two totally different things. Shastar vidiya refers to the ancient and pretty much lost martial art of Gursikhs. And Gatka refers to a show put on to impress ppl. Trust me I'm Not a U.K NIHUNG. And I have nothing against Gatka as long as its not misrespresented as a true fighting system. Which everyone seems to do now adays. I do gatka cause its fun and good excercise. But I can't stand it when ppl try to make it out to be the "martial art" of the gursikhs. If anyone has taken even a cheesy mcdojo (comericialized martial art) class they can see it is more effective and detailed then gatka. If anyones ever dedicated their life to a true and deadly martial arts then they can see that "Gatka" is way far behind. True martial arts of the sikhs is shastar vidiya. And i haven't learnt it but i can tell u from doing other martial arts Gatka is not it. I feel sorry for people who practice it thinking it will help them in a dangerous situation. Because a novice ninjitsu practioner would probably take out a vetran gatka "ustaad". Like i said i'm not putting it down. I just firmly believe gatka is not the martial arts of the sikhs and should not be marketed as such. Play it preform it for the oohs and ahhs of the crowd. Just don't let it get to your head that your learning the true form of shastar vidiya. Which in my mind is probably the purest and most deadilest martials art known to man. And trust me after a lot of research Gatka is not that. Sorry if i offended anyone. I just don't want gatka practioners to get a big head and be in a life or death situation and be filled with confidence in an art that may let them down in real combat. Once again not a u.k nihung. Just a singh who is observant. "

"The difference between both. Gatka teaches you how to swing a sword around really fancy so you look super deadly. and do patterns with kartars and shields. Also teaches u how to fence on a point system, which is my favourite part. Which is kool. However Gatka only has one penthra mool panthra. penthra means footwork. And footwork is not stressed to much in gatka. Any martial art always stresses footwork above every and anythign else. You need to have the roots strong before the tree can be strong. I've seen teachers teach penthra for a day and let kids grab sotis. Because there is nothing else to teach in gatka (footwork wise). However any marital artist will tell you, u have to train at least a few years before you can even touch a weapon. In gatka you can get a weapon the second or third day. And the weapons aren't realistic. You have swords which are flimsy and really dull. Where as in a real martial art you learn with a wooden version of the weapon first and gradually over time maybe years get to use the real version. Gatka you go straight to the flimsy sword and never move up. Also kill spots and how to actually use a sword are never taught. Pressure points breaking bones, different types of weapons and what each weapon can do and what its strengths and weaknesses are are not taught. "

Below is Gurbar Akaals post

"Moving back to the topic in hand, i will try to explain how jahir gatka differs from khalsa jang vidiya.

The weapons used in Gatka are all the same length, and they are way too long. The length prescribed by Guru Gobind Singh for a salotar is sava hath, not 3ft.

There is no variation amongst the weapons used in gatka, only a standard curved tulwar of the same length and weight balance. Whereas shastarvidiya teaches the use of the huge library of indo persian weapons, from tegha, tulwar, kaati, kathi, saif, khanda, kharag, dhal, sipar, bichuwa, pesh kabz, katar, jamdhari katar, bagh nakha, nar nakha, barsha, teer mukhiya, chakar etc (list goes on)

Weapons such as the chakri were never used by the Khalsa, Gatkabaaj's adopted them from travelling bazigar from kerela.

Vaars used in Gatka are "Ek angi", whereas shastarvidiya encorporates Sarb Ang

Vaars shown in Gatka are always overstretched, over committed and over transmitted.

Penthra used within Gatka is always used in the wrong space, way too far from the opponent to even be useful.

The "penthra" shown in Gatka is obvious, it is easily read, its repeated, and there is no subtlety to it to deceive the opponent

The penthra in Gatka is too heavy footed, and all gatka baajs i have seen are flat footed with moving, they do not use all parts of the soles

There is no subtle baiting or technical countering in Gatka

There is no implementation of 16 fighting concepts such as smehtna, smethna, dabauna, dabna, ang jakarna, ang kichna etc

There is no variation of the footwork, or widths of footwork used in gatka.

The spinning of the soti serves no purpose as the cutting edge faces away from its opponent.

There are no banned moves on the battlefield, so why do gatkabaaj's bann certain strikes? surely it would be better to enforce discipline amongst students to respect the safety of others.

The unarmed combat taught in gatka is copied from western arts poorly, Guru Gobind Singh did not do kickboxing or karate on the battlefield.

There is no application of manipulating the gatti of the opponent, probably the biggest difference between gatka and shastarvidiya.

Above is just a small list of differences. "

Above post gives a good idea about the differences. As for nihungs singhs knowing the real martial art. Well when I went to India I asked a local nihung singh to take me to a place where I could learn shastar vidiya. And when I went it was just gatka not shastar vidiya. I asked one of the instructers what should one do in a real situation where I lose my kirpan yet the other person has a knife and he replied " Just grab him and hold him tight and theres nothing much else u can do." Umm yeah.. so anyways my two cents.

And for the person who said lets stay on topic. Well the topic was gatka classes and my post is on authenticity of gatka. So I think I am kinda on topic. Lets keep discussing. Thanks god bless.

Oh and I implore the sangat to please do learn a martial art any kind that is effective on the streets its our duty.

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Yeah i agreee with Quest4Akal, ive been doing gatka for a few years and ummmmm its not all that :) , sure i love the high jumping and the looks i get from the bibiya but it still feels empty blush.gif , hahahaha i couldnt resist :@ , People shouldnt charge for gatka classes, it makes no sense at all charging to teach something that isn't going to benefit you in anyway pretty much. If you want to learn gatka for like tournaments or what ever, then yeah i guess go ahead, find a teacher that doesnt charge, ull learn the same thing, but if u want to learn something defend yourself in a funky situation...... dont learn gatka......

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Nice to see Gurbar Akaal on here. He can state way better than me the difference between shastar vidiya and gatka. 4giveme4mysins please read the topic i posted previously. I never said gatka was or is less effective because of the use of guns. I'm saying gatka is not shastar vidiya because of the experience I have had studing other martial arts. It can't be in my opinion the sikh martial art. I have never learned how to use my kirpan effectively in class. Just how to spin swords and do pattern type fighting and basic fencing which I enjoy. Heres some quotes from the other thread.

"Please don't use the words shastar vidiya and Gatka interchangably. They are two totally different things. Shastar vidiya refers to the ancient and pretty much lost martial art of Gursikhs. And Gatka refers to a show put on to impress ppl. Trust me I'm Not a U.K NIHUNG. And I have nothing against Gatka as long as its not misrespresented as a true fighting system. Which everyone seems to do now adays. I do gatka cause its fun and good excercise. But I can't stand it when ppl try to make it out to be the "martial art" of the gursikhs. If anyone has taken even a cheesy mcdojo (comericialized martial art) class they can see it is more effective and detailed then gatka. If anyones ever dedicated their life to a true and deadly martial arts then they can see that "Gatka" is way far behind. True martial arts of the sikhs is shastar vidiya. And i haven't learnt it but i can tell u from doing other martial arts Gatka is not it. I feel sorry for people who practice it thinking it will help them in a dangerous situation. Because a novice ninjitsu practioner would probably take out a vetran gatka "ustaad". Like i said i'm not putting it down. I just firmly believe gatka is not the martial arts of the sikhs and should not be marketed as such. Play it preform it for the oohs and ahhs of the crowd. Just don't let it get to your head that your learning the true form of shastar vidiya. Which in my mind is probably the purest and most deadilest martials art known to man. And trust me after a lot of research Gatka is not that. Sorry if i offended anyone. I just don't want gatka practioners to get a big head and be in a life or death situation and be filled with confidence in an art that may let them down in real combat. Once again not a u.k nihung. Just a singh who is observant. "

"The difference between both. Gatka teaches you how to swing a sword around really fancy so you look super deadly. and do patterns with kartars and shields. Also teaches u how to fence on a point system, which is my favourite part. Which is kool. However Gatka only has one penthra mool panthra. penthra means footwork. And footwork is not stressed to much in gatka. Any martial art always stresses footwork above every and anythign else. You need to have the roots strong before the tree can be strong. I've seen teachers teach penthra for a day and let kids grab sotis. Because there is nothing else to teach in gatka (footwork wise). However any marital artist will tell you, u have to train at least a few years before you can even touch a weapon. In gatka you can get a weapon the second or third day. And the weapons aren't realistic. You have swords which are flimsy and really dull. Where as in a real martial art you learn with a wooden version of the weapon first and gradually over time maybe years get to use the real version. Gatka you go straight to the flimsy sword and never move up. Also kill spots and how to actually use a sword are never taught. Pressure points breaking bones, different types of weapons and what each weapon can do and what its strengths and weaknesses are are not taught. "

Below is Gurbar Akaals post

"Moving back to the topic in hand, i will try to explain how jahir gatka differs from khalsa jang vidiya.

The weapons used in Gatka are all the same length, and they are way too long. The length prescribed by Guru Gobind Singh for a salotar is sava hath, not 3ft.

There is no variation amongst the weapons used in gatka, only a standard curved tulwar of the same length and weight balance. Whereas shastarvidiya teaches the use of the huge library of indo persian weapons, from tegha, tulwar, kaati, kathi, saif, khanda, kharag, dhal, sipar, bichuwa, pesh kabz, katar, jamdhari katar, bagh nakha, nar nakha, barsha, teer mukhiya, chakar etc (list goes on)

Weapons such as the chakri were never used by the Khalsa, Gatkabaaj's adopted them from travelling bazigar from kerela.

Vaars used in Gatka are "Ek angi", whereas shastarvidiya encorporates Sarb Ang

Vaars shown in Gatka are always overstretched, over committed and over transmitted.

Penthra used within Gatka is always used in the wrong space, way too far from the opponent to even be useful.

The "penthra" shown in Gatka is obvious, it is easily read, its repeated, and there is no subtlety to it to deceive the opponent

The penthra in Gatka is too heavy footed, and all gatka baajs i have seen are flat footed with moving, they do not use all parts of the soles

There is no subtle baiting or technical countering in Gatka

There is no implementation of 16 fighting concepts such as smehtna, smethna, dabauna, dabna, ang jakarna, ang kichna etc

There is no variation of the footwork, or widths of footwork used in gatka.

The spinning of the soti serves no purpose as the cutting edge faces away from its opponent.

There are no banned moves on the battlefield, so why do gatkabaaj's bann certain strikes? surely it would be better to enforce discipline amongst students to respect the safety of others.

The unarmed combat taught in gatka is copied from western arts poorly, Guru Gobind Singh did not do kickboxing or karate on the battlefield.

There is no application of manipulating the gatti of the opponent, probably the biggest difference between gatka and shastarvidiya.

Above is just a small list of differences. "

Above post gives a good idea about the differences. As for nihungs singhs knowing the real martial art. Well when I went to India I asked a local nihung singh to take me to a place where I could learn shastar vidiya. And when I went it was just gatka not shastar vidiya. I asked one of the instructers what should one do in a real situation where I lose my kirpan yet the other person has a knife and he replied " Just grab him and hold him tight and theres nothing much else u can do." Umm yeah.. so anyways my two cents.

And for the person who said lets stay on topic. Well the topic was gatka classes and my post is on authenticity of gatka. So I think I am kinda on topic. Lets keep discussing. Thanks god bless.

Oh and I implore the sangat to please do learn a martial art any kind that is effective on the streets its our duty.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Good explaination Quest4Akaal, just to correct few things i have seen about 2 - 3 penthra styles in gatka alone and the hand to hand combat i.e. for example using a sri sahib taught by gatka ustads ive seen, looks very similiar to footage of the a shastar vidiya style. I am personally taught how to use each vaar and the benefit of the attack of defence, to tell if it would work, i would need to be involved in a fight which i hope guru ji will dismiss me :) on. Watching the fight between Ustad Uptej Singh and Nihang Nidar Singh which is the only footage i have seen of a match of the two styles i think both were just as great styles.

I truely believe that its not the style of fighting that can tell the winner of a fight or battle but its the kamaiye behind them, thats if you believe its maha akaal who weilds the sword not you.

Gurfateh Ji

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To compare Gatka and Shastarvidiya from some videos youve seen on the net would be a grose mistake, as the videos on the net were and are not real representations of the true art. The videos on the website were very basic and not very technical in their demo, the Uptej Singh vs Niddar Singh video has been debated and argued many times without result. From my knowledge and how I interpretted it, Niddar Singh caught Teji Singh within the first second of the fight starting, but obviously he couldnt follow through as it would have hurt him and made Niddar Singh look like the bad sport if he knocked him out. The "fight" was a demo and not a real match, the reason why Niddar Singh offered the Hadh Thor Challenge to Uptej Singh is to remove any doubts and declare a real winner, a challenge that was not taken up by anyone.

If you would like to see the real difference, pop to Niddar Singhs Akhara and ask him to demontrate.

However if you consider Gatka and Shastarvidiya to be the same, then you must accept that that is the real art of the Gurus and was used on the battlefield by the Khalsa. If this is your belief then we can discuss the technical details of Jang Vidiya, Ghum Sehn and Formation fighting to ascertain whether what you learn/teach is the same as what Niddar Singh teaches.

My intention is not to offend or upset anyone, but rather make more awareness of traditional fighting skills of the Khalsa, regardless of the views and beliefs of Niddar Singh on Sikhi, no one can dispute his knowledge of Jang Vidiya.

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"I truely believe that its not the style of fighting that can tell the winner of a fight or battle but its the kamaiye behind them."

I agree with this statement. Nice one 4givem4mysins.

Kamaiye is def important probably the most important. But like guru ji trained his singhs in combat techniques we have do things from a wordly view point as well. Kamayee is paramount in every situation. However this does not mean that we need not train. If this was the case Guru ji would not have trained all his singhs he would have just said kamayee is enough. But from a worldly standpoint they trained as should we.

Also about the infamous video. I've seen it a lot of times. And it is debatable who actually won. Because at the end right before Ustaad Uptej Singh rolls Ustaad Niddar Singh over. Niddar singh kind of paused it seemed, like ok I got him I won, this is a kill spot cause i believe he had his back. I'm not sure though I don't know who won nor do I care.

What we have to focus on was were those two clashes of gatka vs shastar vidiya or not? And I have to say learning from different teachers myself including nihungs from india gatka does not teach you how to wrestle, flip ppl or any type of defensive tactics of hand to hand combat. I believe Uptej Singh has done other martial arts for years where as Niddar singh has trained only in shastar vidiya and thats what was being displayed there. Not pure gatka vs pure shastar vidiya. It was Uptej Singhs different marital arts vs shastar vidiya.

I'm not taking anything away from Uptej Singh I think he is a really good martial artist and I give him respect. I wouldn't challenge him. I wouldn't challenge anyone though..lol.. And I think it is brilliant that he is teaching people gatka along with self defence techniques in his clasees. But thats what I think it is its Gatka mixed with other effective martial arts which does not make it the authentic martial art.

Please correct me if i'm wrong I love to be corrected as I am a Sikh so I'm always willing to learn. If Uptej Singh just used Gatka skills in that demo and only teaches Gatka and never incorporates his other martial arts than please let me know I will retract my statment.

As for you learning from your ustaads about hand to hand combat and knife defence thats awesome I'm still trying to find someone who can teach proper knife defence and what not. But its not easy to find in my city. But you have to ask yourself where did that person learn that knife fighting, from another gatka ustaad that has a lineage back to the gurus time, if thats true than you are learning shastar vidiya but if its from someone who learned from a different martial art or who learned from a teacher who learned from another martial art than your just learning GATKA plus another martial art.

All I'm saying is lets check our egos at the door. Any person who has elementry knowledge of martial arts will consider it an insult to call what ppl teach now in gatka classes "the sikh martial art". Because its way to basic and not effective in my eyes. 4giveme you may learn from some other teacher who teaches proper vidiya but i'm basing this on what I have learned from gatka "ustaads".

I just don't want someone who is like a ten year veteren of gatka being challenged by a MMA guy or any martial art guy who has been doing it for a year to a fight. And getting beat down and than ppl thinking wow that was the sikh martial art. Because think about it how many veteran gatka ustaads would u put up against real martial art masters? Seriously? I mean if your ustaad is different than I give you respect cause you found someone good. And if he learned all his skills from gatka ustaads than well I'm wrong and your right in your particular case. I'm just basing this on my experience.

And i'm not saying all this claiming to be a martial art master I just learned some basic muy tai kick boxing and i'm gonna start doing mma soon with focus on wrestling muy tai and judo. So i'm not anything, but i do read alot about martial arts and am part of many forums and i have a lot of discussions on martial arts. So I am an enthusiast.

I would defenatly dedicate my time to learning shastar vidiya if I could find a teacher who would A. come down here in teach and B. would just teach the art and nothing else.

But what can I do I would even learn a martial art that would teach you how to break bones and defend yourself on the streets with weapons but once again to many MCDOJO'S (fake martial art schools) that just want your money.

God bless

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