Kutchee Bani?!

[Black Goddess]

I was told in Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaars there is a mention of a King Harichand and his Queen Tara, she used to go to Satsang, and do Bhagti, before the times of the Guru's. She used to go in the middle of the night as her husband was not religious and did not allow her to go. One night she went there and her husband followed her after being awoken, she fled when she saw him there and left her shoe there.

The King saw her shoe and searched for her amongst the people meditating, he could not find her as she sneaked out as soon as she saw him there. He resolved to prove her guilty and punish her. Meanwhile Tara Raani realised her shoe was missing and knew she would be found out and started praying to God. When the King asked her to bring her shoes to show him, she was trembling. When she went to fetch them, she saw that the complete pair was there! She realised the other shoe had miraculously appeared and this saved her from her husband (King) wrath and anger.

The King heard of the miracle and started to go to Satsang and thus changed his life. This is an actual Sakhi mentioned in Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaars, reference and excerpt below.

This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 10

suK rwjy hrIcMd Gr nwr su qwrw locn rwxI]

swD sMgiq iml gWvsy rwqIN jwie suxY gurbwxI]

ipCoN rwjw jwigAw A`DI rwq inKMf ivhwxI]

rwxI ids n AwveI mn ivc vrq geI hYrwxI]

horqu rwqIN au~TkY cilAw ipCY qrl juAwxI]

rwxI phuqI sMgqIN rwjy KVI KVWau nIswxI]

swD sMgiq AwrwiDAw joVI juVI KVwauN purwxI]

rwjy ifTw cilq ieh KVWv hY coj ivfwxI]

swD sMgq ivthu kurbwxI ]ö]

sukh raajae hareecha(n)dh ghar naar s thaaraa lochan raanee||

saadhh sa(n)gath mil gaa(n)vasae raathee(n) jaae sunai gurabaanee||pishho(n) raajaa jaagiaa aadhhee raath nikha(n)dd vihaanee||

raanee dhis n aavee man vich varath gee hairaanee||

horath raathee(n) out(h)akai chaliaa pishhai tharal juaanee||

raanee pahuthee sa(n)gathee(n) raajae kharree kharraa(n)o neesaanee||

saadhh sa(n)gath aaraadhhiaa jorree jurree kharraaou(n) puraanee||

raajae ddit(h)aa chalith eih kharraa(n)v hai choj viddaanee||

saadhh sa(n)gath vittahu kurabaanee ||a||

King HariChand had a queen with beautiful eyes, Tara, who had made his home the abode of comforts.

At night she would go to the place where in the form of holy congregation, would recite the holy hymns.

After she had left, the King awoke in the middle of the night and realised she had gone.

He could not find the Queen anywhere and his heart filled with astonishment

The following night he followed the young queen.

The queen reached the holy congregation and the King lifted one of her sandals from there (so that he could prove the infidelity of the queen).

When about to go, the queen concentrated upon the holy congregation and the one sandal became a pair.

The king upheld this feat and realized that there her matching sandal was a miracle.

I am sacrifice unto the holy congregation.

Now, many people on internet forums have said Sants only sing Kutchee Bani (anything which is not written by the Guru's). I have five points by which I can challenge them.

1. The Bhagats have also contributed towards Bani, if a Bhagat of Vaheguru today was to write a poem similar and echoing all the beliefs of Gurmat, would you deem those words 'Kutchee Bani'? Meaning fake?

2. The word Bhai Sahib (Gurdas Jee) uses to describe what that Queen went to listen to is GURBANI! This is before the Guru's started Sikhism, yet he says she went to listen to GURBANI! So if Gurbani is anything which praises the Guru's or Akaal Purukh (as proved in this post and by Bhai Sahib's reference), who can dare to call the dharnas sung by accomplished Mahapurush like Sant Baba Nand Singh Jee, Baba Isher Singh Ji etc wrong? This Vaar is by Bhai Gurdas Ji, who has written Bani approved by the PANTH! So why has he used the word Gurbani for what was sung in the congregation BEFORE the Guru’s were on earth!? THINK!

This Vaar is number 10, pauree 6, link -

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...D=5764&Format=2

3. Another example from Bhai Gurdas Jee’s Vaars, which is considered BANI by the PANTH! He writes in the Vaar about the Sain Barber. Link and excerpt below.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?Sour...o=10&Line_No=16

This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 10

sux prqwp kbIr dw dUjw isK hoAw sYx nweI]

pRym Bgiq rwqIN krY Blky rwj duAwrY jweI]

Awey sMq prwhuxy kIrqn hoAw rYx sbweI]

Cf n skY sMq jn rwj duAwr n syv kmweI]

sYx rUp hir hoiekY AwieAw rwxy noN rIJweI]

swD jnW noN ivdw kr rwjduAwr gieAw SrmweI]

rwxy dUrhuM sdkY glhuM kvwie KolH pYnHweI]

vs kIqw hauN quD Aj bolY rwjw suxY lukweI]

prgt krY Bgq vifAweI ]ñö]

sun parathaap kabeer dhaa dhoojaa sikh hoaa sain naaee||

praem bhagath raathee(n) karai bhalakae raaj dhuaarai jaaee||

aaeae sa(n)th paraahunae keerathan hoaa rain sabaaee||

shhadd n sakai sa(n)th jan raaj dhuaar n saev kamaaee||

sain roop har hoeikai aaeiaa raanae no(n) reejhaaee||

saadhh janaa(n) no(n) vidhaa kar raajadhuaar gaeiaa sharamaaee||

raanae dhoorahu(n) sadhakai galahu(n) kavaae kholh painhaaee||

vas keethaa hou(n) thudhh aj bolai raajaa sunai lukaaee||

paragatt karai bhagath vaddiaaee ||aa||

Notice the following line! aaeae sa(n)th paraahunae keerathan hoaa rain sabaaee|| ß Bhai Sahib says, in the company of the SANTS, KEERTAN was performed, was this KEERTAN of Kutchee Bani? Would he have said this was KEERTAN if it was Kutchee Bani? He also says in the company of SANTS.

Secondly, Bhai Sahib mentioned that Sain became a SIKH! So Sikhs existed before the time Guru Nanak, well Sikhs as defined by Bhai Sahib, who is accepted by the PANTH!

4. The Panthic Ardas up to ‘Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Simariye Ghar Nau Nidh Aave Dhaye’ is Bani, the rest is not! Is the rest not Kutchee Bani? Why do we allow people to do the Ardas in the Gurudwara’s as this is not Bani! Well not half of it anyway.

5. Lastly, the Dhadhis sing anything but Gurbani, they sang in the Sangat during our Guru’s times, and they still do, this is Kutchee Bani they are singing as it is not out of Guru Granth Sahib Jee, so why not ban them before attacking the Bhagats of Guru Sahib?!

I implore the sangat to think and use their god given rationale to read the Vaars and make up their own minds about this issue. People are jealous when others are doing parchaar and they don’t even realise it. They are upset they weren’t able to convince even one person to take Amrit whereas the Sants of Akaal Purukh only have to say one word and people can be ready to follow their Guru.

I wrote this post because I felt I had to, in response to the rubbish being spewed out about Sants today, I will certainly not be part of this as I believe Mahapurush have kamai, and I don’t want to become a Nindhak and part of the ‘in crowd’

GurFateh

Gurpreet Kaur

Ps. I request admin to put this up as I have put a lot of effort into it and may Guru Ji bless us all with gyaan and the ability to see right from wrong!

Also, could you please convert the text into Gurmukhi in those two excerpts? I dont know how to do that, thankyou.

[Singh_Shiromani]

Hanji Khalsa ji that is soo true, what Sant's sing in Dharna's is NOT KACHHI BANI.

Kachi or kutchee Bani is Bani written by people like, bhaniarawala (who wrote bhav sagar samundar granth) and noormahalia' and nirankari's the bani written by them is kutchee Bani!

Now, singing in Dharna's, the same Dharna which joins you up with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, how can that Dharna be KUTCHA??? or KUTCHEE??

that makes, Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib was kutcha who did Dharna kirtan, Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa was kutcha who made the Sangat repeat "Ditya Baaz Nahi Rehana Dharam Sir Dittiya Bazz Nahi Rehna", Sant Baba Attar Singh Ji Mastuane wale was katche as he did Dharna Kirtan, so that makes only the person saying Sants singh KUTCHEE BANI in Kirtan A SUCHA PERSON LOL

[Singh_Shiromani]

Dhaarna Kirtan joins you to the Sach which is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and the Panth, AND THE SACH CAN NEVER BE KUTCHA!!

[munjoth]

very well put penji :doh: but you knw that phrase comes to mind "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"

[K Singh 82]

bhenji.. u smacked it :doh:

:TH:

[Lord Singh]

Every comment by everyone has so far been 100% SPOT ON!!!

Also to add to Singh Shirimoni's Dhaarna that Sant Bhindranwale used to sing, "Ditya Baaz Nahi Rehana Dharam Sir Dittiya Bazz Nahi Rehna" - there was also, "Eh Panchi Kala Hai, Edheh Magar Shikari Bauthe" - and also another popular one they used to sing was, "Sir Jaave Ta Jaave, Mera Sikhi Sidak Na Jaave"!!!

Some of these people think they have a lot of respect for Sant Bhindranwale, but on the other hand say these Sants are fake they sing "kachi bani" and by doing so they are contradicting themselves!!!

:doh: Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!! :doh:

[Singh_Shiromani]

Wah Wah where will we ever get these Gurmukh Piare Sant's From???

Who have no interest in life or death but only come for the benefit of Mankind....

[GuruManeyoGranth]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Awesome post Gurpreet Kaur Bhaen Jee :wubc: :awesome

Waheguroo

[Black Goddess]

GurFateh

Thankyou for your responses, my aim was not to attack anyone who believes differently from me. I think its time we expressed our views on this issue and defended our stance that's all. This is why I posted on all the forums. I do hope the admin will put it up on tapoban.org, as so far it hasn't come up, there are many people there who have a lot of bitterness in their hearts for sants, which clouds their judgement at times. May Guru Ji bless us.

Fateh Jee

[jagjit_waheguru]

I was told in Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaars there is a mention of a King Harichand and his Queen Tara, she used to go to Satsang, and do Bhagti, before the times of the Guru's. She used to go in the middle of the night as her husband was not religious and did not allow her to go. One night she went there and her husband followed her after being awoken, she fled when she saw him there and left her shoe there.

The King saw her shoe and searched for her amongst the people meditating, he could not find her as she sneaked out as soon as she saw him there. He resolved to prove her guilty and punish her. Meanwhile Tara Raani realised her shoe was missing and knew she would be found out and started praying to God. When the King asked her to bring her shoes to show him, she was trembling. When she went to fetch them, she saw that the complete pair was there! She realised the other shoe had miraculously appeared and this saved her from her husband (King) wrath and anger.

The King heard of the miracle and started to go to Satsang and thus changed his life. This is an actual Sakhi mentioned in Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaars, reference and excerpt below.

This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 10

suK rwjy hrIcMd Gr nwr su qwrw locn rwxI]

swD sMgiq iml gWvsy rwqIN jwie suxY gurbwxI]

ipCoN rwjw jwigAw A`DI rwq inKMf ivhwxI]

rwxI ids n AwveI mn ivc vrq geI hYrwxI]

horqu rwqIN au~TkY cilAw ipCY qrl juAwxI]

rwxI phuqI sMgqIN rwjy KVI KVWau nIswxI]

swD sMgiq AwrwiDAw joVI juVI KVwauN purwxI]

rwjy ifTw cilq ieh KVWv hY coj ivfwxI]

swD sMgq ivthu kurbwxI ]ö]

sukh raajae hareecha(n)dh ghar naar s thaaraa lochan raanee||

saadhh sa(n)gath mil gaa(n)vasae raathee(n) jaae sunai gurabaanee||pishho(n) raajaa jaagiaa aadhhee raath nikha(n)dd vihaanee||

raanee dhis n aavee man vich varath gee hairaanee||

horath raathee(n) out(h)akai chaliaa pishhai tharal juaanee||

raanee pahuthee sa(n)gathee(n) raajae kharree kharraa(n)o neesaanee||

saadhh sa(n)gath aaraadhhiaa jorree jurree kharraaou(n) puraanee||

raajae ddit(h)aa chalith eih kharraa(n)v hai choj viddaanee||

saadhh sa(n)gath vittahu kurabaanee ||a||

King HariChand had a queen with beautiful eyes, Tara, who had made his home the abode of comforts.

At night she would go to the place where in the form of holy congregation, would recite the holy hymns.

After she had left, the King awoke in the middle of the night and realised she had gone.

He could not find the Queen anywhere and his heart filled with astonishment

The following night he followed the young queen.

The queen reached the holy congregation and the King lifted one of her sandals from there (so that he could prove the infidelity of the queen).

When about to go, the queen concentrated upon the holy congregation and the one sandal became a pair.

The king upheld this feat and realized that there her matching sandal was a miracle.

I am sacrifice unto the holy congregation.

Now, many people on internet forums have said Sants only sing Kutchee Bani (anything which is not written by the Guru's). I have five points by which I can challenge them.

1. The Bhagats have also contributed towards Bani, if a Bhagat of Vaheguru today was to write a poem similar and echoing all the beliefs of Gurmat, would you deem those words 'Kutchee Bani'? Meaning fake?

2. The word Bhai Sahib (Gurdas Jee) uses to describe what that Queen went to listen to is GURBANI! This is before the Guru's started Sikhism, yet he says she went to listen to GURBANI! So if Gurbani is anything which praises the Guru's or Akaal Purukh (as proved in this post and by Bhai Sahib's reference), who can dare to call the dharnas sung by accomplished Mahapurush like Sant Baba Nand Singh Jee, Baba Isher Singh Ji etc wrong? This Vaar is by Bhai Gurdas Ji, who has written Bani approved by the PANTH! So why has he used the word Gurbani for what was sung in the congregation BEFORE the Guru’s were on earth!? THINK!

This Vaar is number 10, pauree 6, link -

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...D=5764&Format=2

3. Another example from Bhai Gurdas Jee’s Vaars, which is considered BANI by the PANTH! He writes in the Vaar about the Sain Barber. Link and excerpt below.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?Sour...o=10&Line_No=16

This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 10

sux prqwp kbIr dw dUjw isK hoAw sYx nweI]

pRym Bgiq rwqIN krY Blky rwj duAwrY jweI]

Awey sMq prwhuxy kIrqn hoAw rYx sbweI]

Cf n skY sMq jn rwj duAwr n syv kmweI]

sYx rUp hir hoiekY AwieAw rwxy noN rIJweI]

swD jnW noN ivdw kr rwjduAwr gieAw SrmweI]

rwxy dUrhuM sdkY glhuM kvwie KolH pYnHweI]

vs kIqw hauN quD Aj bolY rwjw suxY lukweI]

prgt krY Bgq vifAweI ]ñö]

sun parathaap kabeer dhaa dhoojaa sikh hoaa sain naaee||

praem bhagath raathee(n) karai bhalakae raaj dhuaarai jaaee||

aaeae sa(n)th paraahunae keerathan hoaa rain sabaaee||

shhadd n sakai sa(n)th jan raaj dhuaar n saev kamaaee||

sain roop har hoeikai aaeiaa raanae no(n) reejhaaee||

saadhh janaa(n) no(n) vidhaa kar raajadhuaar gaeiaa sharamaaee||

raanae dhoorahu(n) sadhakai galahu(n) kavaae kholh painhaaee||

vas keethaa hou(n) thudhh aj bolai raajaa sunai lukaaee||

paragatt karai bhagath vaddiaaee ||aa||

Notice the following line! aaeae sa(n)th paraahunae keerathan hoaa rain sabaaee|| ß Bhai Sahib says, in the company of the SANTS, KEERTAN was performed, was this KEERTAN of Kutchee Bani? Would he have said this was KEERTAN if it was Kutchee Bani? He also says in the company of SANTS.

Secondly, Bhai Sahib mentioned that Sain became a SIKH! So Sikhs existed before the time Guru Nanak, well Sikhs as defined by Bhai Sahib, who is accepted by the PANTH!

4. The Panthic Ardas up to ‘Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Simariye Ghar Nau Nidh Aave Dhaye’ is Bani, the rest is not! Is the rest not Kutchee Bani? Why do we allow people to do the Ardas in the Gurudwara’s as this is not Bani! Well not half of it anyway.

5. Lastly, the Dhadhis sing anything but Gurbani, they sang in the Sangat during our Guru’s times, and they still do, this is Kutchee Bani they are singing as it is not out of Guru Granth Sahib Jee, so why not ban them before attacking the Bhagats of Guru Sahib?!

I implore the sangat to think and use their god given rationale to read the Vaars and make up their own minds about this issue. People are jealous when others are doing parchaar and they don’t even realise it. They are upset they weren’t able to convince even one person to take Amrit whereas the Sants of Akaal Purukh only have to say one word and people can be ready to follow their Guru.

I wrote this post because I felt I had to, in response to the rubbish being spewed out about Sants today, I will certainly not be part of this as I believe Mahapurush have kamai, and I don’t want to become a Nindhak and part of the ‘in crowd’

GurFateh

Gurpreet Kaur

Ps. I request admin to put this up as I have put a lot of effort into it and may Guru Ji bless us all with gyaan and the ability to see right from wrong!

Also, could you please convert the text into Gurmukhi in those two excerpts? I dont know how to do that, thankyou.

107154[/snapback]

waheguru ji ke khalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, I do not wish to get into a sant thing. I think anyone inspiring people to Gurmat is good. I have faith that most sikhs as per their karams will find Gurbani, and live by it.

In your post however the case for dharnaas or kachhe bani, dependant upon view, is based upon some assumptions. We should be careful, as bani does not contradict itself. However as humans when we use Gurbani to back our point of view, it can look as though it does contradict.

If one was to go through your post. (please think about without prejudice and emotion) Both sides should look at the arguments as presented in the thread rather than attch emtions to it, because it may indirectly reflect upon any individual.

1. Bhai Gurdas ji vaars represent the important of sangat, Guru Ji sevaks and how he protects them. There are many stories in Gurbani and Bhai Gurdas ji vaars, some from Hindu mythology, others just folklore stories. They are used as analogies. The story does not push the case for dharnaas or kaatche bani. We have no idea what the sangat was singing. They could be just japping "raam raam", or anything. All we know is that they are praising God, which is good.

2. You have mentioned Bhagat bani, which is extensively used in the Sahib Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It is basically Gurbani. However we also realise that from these very bhagats, they had alot more bani, which was rejected by Sahib Siri Guru Arjan dev ji, as not worthy of the Sahib Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Some bhagats only had one or a few compositions allowed. So what is the rest, Kaatchi bani, or not? Should we now sing them compositions?

3. Gurbani often mentions in the company of Saints. This does necessarily mean Gursikhs in white clothes, unmarried, who travel doing parchaar. Essentially it means any Gursikh of a saintly nature inspired by Gurbani. Essentially it the first aim of every sikh to become a Sant, and then a Siphahi. Sain Nahi got inspired by seeing Gursikhs doing keertan rainsbhais, devoted in Abyass.

4. The Panthik ardas was written and approved by the Sarbat khalsa. The last time it was amended was in 1947 after partition, when the part about darshan of Siri Nankana Sahib was added. It is based on history, philosophy and idealogue.

5. Sahib Siri Guru Hargobind sahib ji was the Guru who established Dhadi vaars as part of mainstream. They have a distinct seva of enlightening the sangat with history, and education. The role very separate from the spiritual goal of Gurbani. Both are educational, but Dhadis by nature are ther to put josh into sangat.

In conclusion, you have made an interesting argument for dharnaas. Are they kaatchi bani or not? To be honest a person can argue both ways. However personally bearing in mind Anand sahib`s very direct warning on kaatchi bani, should we not be careful.

Gursikhs do alot of parchaar. I personally think dhaarnas are very effective on rural punjab population. You have 3 types of kathakaars. Firstly very technical ones like Sant Singh Maskin. Then spiritual gurbani ones like Bhai Jasvir Singh khanne wale. Then we have dhaarnas wale sants. Everyone has there preferred choice. However as youth rather than accepting what we see, should we not be going forward. I see no reason why any of these dhaarnaa wale sants cannot put some more effort in using purely Gurbani like Bhai jasvir Singh Khannewale. I do believe it may even have more impact.

Why just use bits of gurbani, when we can use whole shabads. According to Panthik rehit maryada the bani of Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib ji, Dasam Granth, Bhai Gurdas ji varran, and Bhai Nand lal jis rehit name, are considered as bani for keertan. There is so much knowledge there, more than enough to emphasise any point in katha.

This is not to say any of them sants in history were bad, it is just to say, maybe the newer generation should look at using bani only to emphasise a point. As the long term objective is to jion a person with God, then the boat acroos the rough waters is bani, so surely we should joining them to Gurbani, rather than poems..

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh