Kutchee Bani?!

[Taksali Singh]

WJKKWJKP!

I agree with both Bhainjee and Veerjee Jagjit Singh.

I agree with this....

I wrote this post because I felt I had to, in response to the rubbish being spewed out about Sants today, I will certainly not be part of this as I believe Mahapurush have kamai, and I don’t want to become a Nindhak and part of the ‘in crowd’

I too believe that Mahapurakhs have kamai and that we must learn to accept that they have the understanding and gyan to accept and abide by Guroo Sahib's Hukam, which is something we all need to do in our lives.

However, I do agree with Jagjit Singh in that the use of Baanee would be better and would not harm the Katha, but infact support it and therefore enlighten more on to the path of Gursikhi.

Either way, keep on the right path, stay away from Nindaks and keep Faith in Akaal Purakh!

WJKKWJKP!

[Lord Singh]

:doh: Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!! :doh:

Click on the following link to open a small audio file of Sant Baba Ranjit Singh Ji (Dhadrian Wale) talking about this so-called "Kachi Bani"!!!

Link to Baba Ranjit Singh Audio Clip on "Kachi Bani"

EVERYONE PLEASE LISTEN TO IT!!!

:doh: Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!! :doh:

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, I have just finished listening to the katha of Baba Ranjit Singh ji. He presents a very good viewpoint, and I found alot of what he said as very agreeable.

Someone such as myself who will fell blessed to inspire one person in my life, or just inspire myself cannot compare to any of the Gursikhs mentioned. It is first time I have heard what we term as kaatche bani, as not kaatche bani, but as dharnaas equivalent to Dhadhi vaars. This is fine.

However after listening to the katha, my computer went straight on the playlist automatically programmed in my computer. Straight away the shabad by Bhai Rajinder Singh Singapore in 1980, "Gursikh har bole Mere Bhai". It was like an arrow to the heart. Then shabads came to minds, "Ko Kar Gal Sunavve har Nam ki, Jo lagge Gursikha Man meeta", etc, etc. parchaar will just bani, is more than inspirational, it is inspiration with Naam, and then rass, and so much more.

Essentially, lets accept dhaarnaas as just an alternative to dhadhi vaars, and not kaatche bani. Then one asks is there such a thing as kaatche bani. Only then as Baba Ranjit Singh ji stated the dhaarnaas that are false are kaatche, and those that are true are Shaatche. But the bhagat bani that was rejected by Sahib Siri Guru Arjan Dev ji, could have been accepted as saatchi dhaarnaas, because they were composed by the most accomplished souls, and devoted to God. But we have to realise they were still rejected by Guru Ji. That was something very significant.

Rather than criticize anyone, I would like to see all of these Gursikh Sants to do exactly the same parchaar but with shabads of Gurbani only. What we have to understand is Bani is so multi-dimentional. Dhaarnaas will inspire and spread the message of sikhi, but Gurbani will do that but also at the same deeply effect everyone on a spiritual level far deeper than can be imagined. The Raass of Bani is so strong, but our souls so deeply immersed in Vikaars cannot always appreciate it. When indivduals come into sangat, they are inspired, by the actual spiritual food and nourishment is only when the read bani, sing bani, and do abyass of bani.

I do hope Baba Ranjit Singh inspires many, and them many are directed by Guru Ji Bhanna towards Bani, in its purest context. But even more as sahib Siri Guru Arjan dev ji states, "Aap naam japo, avraa naam japavoh," so according to this the paarchaar of abyass in bani is the strongest parchaar, and if done in these huge sangats it will act as a subconcious tidal wave of spiritual contentment to all those who attend.

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

[N30S1NGH]

new twist to this topic,

does one even know history behind where guru amardas ji talks about kach bani in anand sahib? This is what happens when certain groups dont have any uthanka(historical context) of gurbani or beleive in katha's.

Someone needs to understand the context that the Guru wrote that shabad in. The shabad in question was uchaared when the the Prithi Chandiyas were writing "Gurbani" in the name of Guru Nanak to bring people to their Sangats.

Kachi Bani is "Bani" which isnt really of the pen of the Guru, but it is made out to be. A Dhadhi Vaar, katha, dharnas isnt kachi bani because it isnt made out to be the words of the Guru.

please learn some uthanka(historical context) of gurbani otherwise you going to make a grave mistake "misinterpeting your guru".

Gurbani does not revolve all around in sikhitothemax site..grab yourself steeks to understand..english translations wouldn't do any justice...english translations are good to give you spark but cannot provide uthanka(historical context) and adhatamic context(spiritual context) of gurbani.

That's why i don't quote gurbani that much..because i don't qualify for it to quote gurbani and use gurbani to support twisted beleifs and mindset.

[GuruManeyoGranth]

Someone needs to understand the context that the Guru wrote that shabad in. The shabad in question was uchaared when the the Prithi Chandiyas were writing "Gurbani" in the name of Guru Nanak to bring people to their Sangats.

Kachi Bani is "Bani" which isnt really of the pen of the Guru, but it is made out to be. A Dhadhi Vaar, katha, dharnas isnt kachi bani because it isnt made out to be the words of the Guru.

I agree :TH:

Waheguroo

[The Khalsa Fauj]

There was no group called Prithi Chandias during Guru Amardass Ji. Those guys came during Guru Arjan Ji's time.

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh

Pyare jio, I once again would disagree. I do not wish to disagree with Veer Namstang all the time, but I have to accept possibly our viewpoints are quite polarised.

Take away all your emtional attachment, whether pro sant or anti-sant. Just think about what is at the heart of the matter. Who is my Guru?

The Guru khalsa Panth has already decided it, but if you do not agree, then think about what you are saying. Is any poem by any sant equivalent to japji Sahib, Jaap Sahib, etc?

No matter how great a sant, would any of them consider themselves higher or equivalent to the Bhagats? We have to accept alot of peoms by these Great bhagats was rejected. For some Bhagats, Guru Ji only accepted one Shabad. Many of them had whole granths.

Further at what point would you draw the line. What if the dahaarnas contradicts Gurbani? Who decides who is a sant and who is not?

Is there not enough Gurbani, Vaars, Rehitnamas for us to do parchaar? Why do we need more? Why is learning Bani so difficult for some people?

Lastly the most important question - How are any of you going to put PARAAS KALA into these dharnas?

So please think with logic, and not because you like a Sant and want to defend them.

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

P.s. Prithvi Chand was against sahib Siri Guru Arjan dev ji, you seemed to have made assumption based on a wrong understanding of history.

[Jai Tegang!]

Someone needs to understand the context that the Guru wrote that shabad in. The shabad in question was uchaared when the the Prithi Chandiyas were writing "Gurbani" in the name of Guru Nanak to bring people to their Sangats.

That doen't sound quite right. Wasn't Prithi Chand the eldest son of Guru Ram Dass ji?

Can you check your sources again, perhaps the shabad by Guru Amardass Ji was directed towards another heretic group?

[N30S1NGH]

Someone needs to understand the context that the Guru wrote that shabad in. The shabad in question was uchaared when the the Prithi Chandiyas were writing "Gurbani" in the name of Guru Nanak to bring people to their Sangats.

That doen't sound quite right. Wasn't Prithi Chand the eldest son of Guru Ram Dass ji?

Can you check your sources again, perhaps the shabad by Guru Amardass Ji was directed towards another heretic group?

138151[/snapback]

Yes veer ji very much..could be. above historical explanation was fetched from this nihang singh nick name (Bir ras singh) post on tapoban. However for the sake of clarify on this issue, i ll personally look into sato gali steek by one of the seva panthi mahapursh. This Sato gali steek is one of very few steeks which provides history(uthanka) of gurbani angs makes a reader understand context of gurbani.

[Kharkoo4Life]

Fateh,

I would like to add a few comments with regards to two things specifically as they relate to this subject of kachee bani. The first is with regards to the shabad referring to kachi bani in anand sahib and its meaning and relevence in the context of this current discussion and the second being the various arguments raised by some that no one is in a position to make disctinciton between 'dharnaas' and true bani and label it as kachee bani (including that noted in the audio link provided). I will try to cover both these points.

First, with regards to WHAT IS GURBANI and what isnt and the value of true gurbani, the guru says:

siqgur kI bwxI siq srUpu hY gurbwxI bxIAY ]

The Word of the True Guru's Bani is the embodiment of Truth; through Gurbani, one becomes perfect.

In the next line the Guru goes on to say, that even though the Word I share is that of the Lord himself, there remain countless people who enraptured in their own ego and jealousy try to duplicate it and pass it off as being the same:

siqgur kI rIsY hoir kcu ipcu boldy sy kUiVAwr kUVy JiV pVIAY ]

Jealously emulating the True Guru, some others may speak of good and bad, but the false are destroyed by their falsehood.

Now this is where the difference of 'dharnaas' vs. katha comes. Katha is an open discourse, a regular dialouge of discussion where it is clear to all that the person is trying to explain gurbani and its meaning. With dharnaas however, the words are sung with music in the sam fashion as gurbani kirtan, and often mixed with actual shabads. To the average person they cannot differniate what is actually written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and what was written by someone on their own. Thus ppl can easily be confused and start memorizing and reciting these 'dharnaa' compositions as gurbani which im sure u will all agree is a grave sin. Im not sayin that the people who write thse 'dharnaas' are necesarrily all bad, im sure many have gud honest intentions. But the problem and danger lies in the fact that the dharnas are sung in a fashion which emulates (rees kurni) of gurbani.

Some go steps further and get teh sangat to actually openly recite and sing these "dharnaas' in the actual presence of Guru Granth Sahib!! Even then, during the times of the previous Gurus there were those who tried passing off duplicate nklI parts to the masses in hopes they would accept it as divine and hence pay subsequent homage to them. The Guru goes on to tell us that these people who claim to have the highest respect and love for the Guru and God on their tongues, inside their minds and hearts resonates a completely different thought and motive.

En@w AMdir horu muiK horu hY ibKu mwieAw no JiK mrdy kVIAY ]9]

Deep within them is one thing, and in their mouths is another; they suck in the poison of Maya, and then they painfully waste away

The Guru is telling us that people like these, who choose to add on their own compositions and lines to Gurbani, and sharing them with the audience, some even to the extent of telling the listeners that it is in agreement with the Guru so they should follow and obey the message of these compositions, that these people are not bringing you closer to the Guru, but rather they are breaking you away from the Guru. On the one hand we have our Guru who is telling us:

Awvhu isK siqgurU ky ipAwirho gwvhu scI bwxI ]

Come, O beloved Sikhs of the True Guru, and sing the True Word of His Bani

How do we know what is Sachi Bani and what is not? The Guru answered this questioned unequivocally in the next line when he said:

bwxI q gwvhu gurU kyrI bwxIAw isir bwxI ]

Sing the Guru's Bani, the supreme Word of Words.

The Guru is telling us over and over that:

ijn kau ndir krmu hovY ihrdY iqnw smwxI ]

Those who are blessed by the Lord's Glance of Grace - their hearts are imbued with this Bani.

pIvhu AMimRqu sdw rhhu hir rMig jiphu swirgpwxI ]

Drink in this Ambrosial Nectar, and remain in the Lord's Love forever; meditate on the Lord, the Sustainer of the world.

khY nwnku sdw gwvhu eyh scI bwxI ]23]

Says Nanak, sing this True Bani forever.

This is the Guru’s order. But the Guru does not stop here. In order to prevent any future confusion or debate on this topic, He gives an absolute ultimatum in the following lines, on which no Sikh can ever voice disagreement, because the Guru’s decision is final, and beyond amendment. As is God, so is the Guru, and as God is perfect so too the Guru is perfect and hence incapable of making a wrong decision. So those who ever doubt or are have the audacity to argue over what is Suchi Bani and what is Kachi Bani should read the following line from Sri Guru Granth Sahib. In it the Guru clearly tells us that there is a REAL and PRESENT difference between suchi bani and kuchi bani and that every Sikh should be aware of this difference so not to be led astray by any person. Guru Ji says:

siqgurU ibnw hor kcI hY bwxI ]Without the True Guru, other songs are false.

bwxI q kcI siqgurU bwJhu hor kcI bwxI ]

The songs are false without the True Guru; all other songs are false.

Could the answer be any more clear or simple? There are many who will take offense to this. The majority of us respect and listen with great enthusiasm to a number of Sikh kirtanees, kathavachaks who incorporate ‘bani’ outside of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in their kirtan and kathas. The people who are devoted listeners of them will argue that who are we to judge the sincerity and love of a Sikh to his guru. That just because he chooses to incorporate some of his own words, writings into his kirtan does not necessarily mean that he is against the Guru or doing anything offensive or objectionable. But before I even counter this argument, it should be known that the vast majority of us are not True Sikhs but only those that call ourselves Sikhs. Being a Sikh is not some sort of birthright, or constitutional right. There are specific conditions for anyone who wishes to call themselves a Sikh. And the Guru himself has set out these conditions the most important of which being:

so isKu sKw bMDpu hY BweI ij gur ky Bwxy ivic AwvY ]

He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will.

The Guru’s will is clearly outlined in Gurbani. We have no moral authority to associate outside reasoning or views with the Will of the Guru. The Gurus Will is ONLY that which is written in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. And the Guru is telling us that:

siqgurU ibnw hor kcI hY bwxI ]Without the True Guru, other songs are false.

bwxI q kcI siqgurU bwJhu hor kcI bwxI ]

The songs are false without the True Guru; all other songs are false.

Yet people continue to debate and argue over this point. Often they fail to see the lack of logic in their own arguments. Amongst these arguments is a common one that is often recited to support their logic. They state that, ”people argue that anything outside of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is Kachee Bani. That any word, any shabad, any poem not written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib is kachee bani. In that case, the names of the Panj Pyaray are not inscribed in the SGGS then they must be kuchay Panj Pyaray. Bol Vaheguru! The Chaar Sahibzadey are not mentioned in the SGGS then they too must be kuchay sahibzaday, Bol Vahguru!! Any Sikh whose name is not in SGGS is a kucha sikh”.

How absurd is this logic! Yet this is the very logic that these ‘babay’, ‘sants’ etc are using to justify their use of kuchee bani in their kirtans and kathas. Even more excruciating is that as ‘Guru kay Sikh”, we are falling victim to this completely anti-Gurmat practice. The sole reason for this is that we as Sikhs have failed to understand and incorporate the Shabad Guru into our lives. Their faith in the Guru is still not unconditional. They place greater trust and faith in a dhaydhari (physical) being than the Shabad Guru.

Now, this is the Guru’s decision, the Guru’s Hukamnama. He is CLEARLY telling us that:

hukmu mMinhu gurU kyrw gwvhu scI bwxI ]

Obey the Hukam of the Guru's Command, and sing the True Word of His Bani

The decision as to what is the difference between kuchi bani and suchi bani has already been made by our Guru. There is need only of implementation of this decision.

The Guru goes one to tell us that the gift of this Sachi Bani is a blessing to us only because of his Grace, and we should forever be grateful for and appreciative of it. What greater form of appreciation can one show than to continually sing this Bani and incorporate its message into every step of our lives.